Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

[mehs]

Belkar has been well on his way for the past 800 or so strips to changing alignment. Has he crossed the threshold yet? Is he Non-evil? Will he ever end up as a good alignment? If he is still evil, then how close is he to becoming non-evil? Considerations of using the 9 point scale?

[Worldsong]

I'm guessing that if Belkar was judged purely for his present self he'd be considered Chaotic Neutral. He still mostly follows his own whims and has a love for fighting (and killing) but these days he's unlikely to kill innocents just for his personal amusement (in fact he actually appears to have some consideration for others these days).

However your past self also matters and Belkar hasn't exactly made up for all the bad stuff he's done yet, and depending on how this book pans out he might never do so. After all,

Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone.

EDIT: on a scale of 1 to 9, with 1 being utterly Evil and 9 being utterly Good, I'd rate Belkar a 3, moving towards a 4. He was never the most Evil and he's probably close to the tipping point for Chaotic Neutral, but he's not there yet.

[Peelee]

Belkar has been well on his way for the past 800 or so strips to changing alignment.

Hard disagree. He's been well on his way to not being one-dimensional anymore for the past 800 or so strips. He's been somewhat on his way to being non-evil in the last... fifty, is it? And even that is iffy.

Will he ever end up as a good alignment?

Why would he?

[LadyEowyn]

Hard disagree. He's been well on his way to not being one-dimensional anymore for the past 800 or so strips. He's been somewhat on his way to being non-evil in the last... fifty, is it? And even that is iffy.

Why would he?

Yes. Belkar’s first meaningful shift away from being evil came with Durkon’s death, which was the point where Belkar first began to feel dissatisfaction with being evil (rather than revelling in it, as he previously had). All of his hostile reactions towards Durkula indicated guilt at Durkon’s death. His conversation with Durkon after Durkon’s return was the first time when he began to acknowledge, to himself or others, an active desire to be a better person; it was also the first time he expressed regret for a specific action, albeit a very minor one (getting Durkon hit with a palm tree).

Going from Evil to Neutral, much less Good, after years of murdering innocent people for fun, requires a lot more than just not having murdered anyone in the last couple weeks.

What we’re seeing now is that Belkar regrets, in general, the previous tenor of his character and personality, and is sincerely (rather than insincerely, as at the start of Book 5) endeavouring to improve in terms of how he interacts with his teammates. But we haven’t seen indications of regret or guilt over specific actions such as, say, all the innocent people he’s murdered.

Contrast that with V, who showed extreme regret for Familicide and a desire to atone for it.

[understatement]

Belkar has been well on his way for the past 800 or so strips to changing alignment. Has he crossed the threshold yet? Is he Non-evil? Will he ever end up as a good alignment? If he is still evil, then how close is he to becoming non-evil? Considerations of using the 9 point scale?

He hasn't said, "I'm sorry for killing innocents, and I will do my best to atone for those actions by actively helping as many people as I can." And he doesn't have the luxury of years or decades to make it up; he has weeks left. If he ever reaches Neutral, it'll be at the very last second of his life (and even then, probably not).

At the best, he's no longer an immediate danger to civilians around him.

[Worldsong]

Hard disagree. He's been well on his way to not being one-dimensional anymore for the past 800 or so strips. He's been somewhat on his way to being non-evil in the last... fifty, is it? And even that is iffy.

I believe it's reasonable to say that the point where Belkar's journey towards Neutrality began (if you believe he is on such a journey) is on page #877, which would currently be 329 pages ago.

After all we have three separate occasions where he refers to that moment in a completely serious manner and seems deeply disturbed by what it implies about morality and how it reflects on himself (#1089, #1115, #1030).

He hasn't said, "I'm sorry for killing innocents, and I will do my best to atone for those actions by actively helping as many people as I can." And he doesn't have the luxury of years or decades to make it up; he has weeks left. If he ever reaches Neutral, it'll be at the very last second of his life (and even then, probably not).

At the best, he's no longer an immediate danger to civilians around him.

Personally I'd say that this is more a difference between Good and Neutral. For him to become Good he'd have to actively try to atone for everything he's done and show genuine remorse. For him to become Neutral he'd still have to balance the scales but I don't think it's required to intentionally right all the wrongs you've committed in your life.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Belkar has been well on his way for the past 800 or so strips to changing alignment. Has he crossed the threshold yet? Is he Non-evil? Will he ever end up as a good alignment? If he is still evil, then how close is he to becoming non-evil? Considerations of using the 9 point scale?

Going from "happily would murder even his own team members" to "acknowledging he has some obligations towards people who are willing to risk their lives for him" is not a migration away from Evil. Team Vector all have each other's backs, and that doesn't make them any less evil. Belkar is on a journey from murderhobo to team player. But I do not see any indication he is any less Evil - just slightly less Chaotic, in the sense that he is willing to obey the "rules" of being a team member over his desire to engage in recreational murder.

(Caring about his pets could be argued to be less Evil, I'll grant you... but again, Evil people can have pets. White cats especially, traditionally)

Grey Wolf

[Worldsong]

Going from "happily would murder even his own team members" to "acknowledging he has some obligations towards people who are willing to risk their lives for him" is not a migration away from Evil. Team Vector all have each other's backs, and that doesn't make them any less evil. Belkar is on a journey from murderhobo to team player. But I do not see any indication he is any less Evil - just slightly less Chaotic, in the sense that he is willing to obey the "rules" of being a team member over his desire to engage in recreational murder.

(Caring about his pets could be argued to be less Evil, I'll grant you... but again, Evil people can have pets. White cats especially, traditionally)

Grey Wolf

I'd posit that page #0969 is an important one for the development of Belkar's personality. A stranger who he has no obligations towards and who freely offers him something he might have wanted... and he turns it down and afterwards tries to awkwardly rationalize his decision. He appears to be genuinely disturbed here, not because accepting the offer would have gone against him being a team member, but because he felt too guilty to say yes.

Also on page #1151 the entire discussion about facing up to your own bad deeds appears to be purely for his sake (from his own perspective) and has nothing to do with putting up an act. I interpret him as genuinely considering it.

[Peelee]

I'd posit that page #0969 is an important one for the development of Belkar's personality. A stranger who he has no obligations towards and who freely offers him something he might have wanted... and he turns it down and afterwards tries to awkwardly rationalize his decision. He appears to be genuinely disturbed here, not because accepting the offer would have gone against him being a team member, but because he felt too guilty to say yes.

Also on page #1151 the entire discussion about facing up to your own bad deeds appears to be purely for his sake (from his own perspective) and has nothing to do with putting up an act. I interpret him as genuinely considering it.

As for 969, he has no problem ripping her off, he just feels awkward that she's so thankful he's ripping her off. Not really a stellar endorsement of "not evil" there. 1151 I do think is an indication that he's capable of trying to change who he is, but he definitely can't do it alone and needs guidance.

[Worldsong]

As for 969, he has no problem ripping her off, he just feels awkward that she's so thankful he's ripping her off. Not really a stellar endorsement of "not evil" there. 1151 I do think is an indication that he's capable of trying to change who he is, but he definitely can't do it alone and needs guidance.

He does willingly rip her off, but he only does it after he's faced with the threat of being exposed as Evil and he voluntarily offers to still pay half price for it (given that the gnome was willing to throw it away he could have tried pushing to get it for free). It's definitely not Good but I don't think it's Evil either, which I consider a fair example for Neutral since I'm opposed to Neutral being Good-Lite.

Personally I did interpret his reaction as him genuinely feeling guilty about the entire thing, even if it might have taken her showing her gratitude for it to really hit him. I'd speculate that at this point Belkar is specifically vulnerable towards feeling guilt towards Good people because of Durkon.

And yes he does need help getting there but that doesn't mean he isn't trying.

Overall I understand your interpretation but I think my more optimistic interpretation is also valid.

[Peelee]

He does willingly rip her off, but he only does it after he's faced with the threat of being exposed as Evil

And the punishment for a shopkeeper finding out a customer is Evil is....?

[Worldsong]

And the punishment for a shopkeeper finding out a customer is Evil is....?

I dunno but Belkar's behaviour before the gnome suggests throwing the clasp away suggests he'd rather she doesn't find out. Possibly he's just worried that if she's aware that he's Evil she'd tell him to leave her shop and since he really wants something to help protect him against a vampire's domination he can't afford to be thrown out.

We don't know the reason but his behaviour does strongly indicate that he considers being ousted as Evil a bad thing, enough that he's willing to lie about not being burned by the clasp even as it's still burning him (or at least making him feel like he's burning). That means that him not wanting to be found out as Evil still affects his decision to buy the clasp for half price so he doesn't have to try out another clasp so the gnome finds out.

[Crusher]

t the best, he's no longer an immediate danger to civilians around him.

Hah. That's a good, pithy one-liner right there.

[Aidan]

Belkar is not good by any stretch of the imagination, and while he has certainly making strides towards not being a horrible person, he still has had a whole life of many evil acts, including murder, extortion, slave trading, and more. If we take a snapshot of him today, I would say he is operating somewhere around Chaotic Neutral, but that does not begin to make up for his misdeeds.

Don't get me wrong, Belkar is a much better person today then he was at strip #1, he shows a genuine level of respect for his teammates, he seems to care a bit more for about his teammates, and seems generally disappointed in himself for being a bad person. If Belkar managed to live to old age, he probably would become someone that, at the very least, would be not evil. However he likely won't be making it to much farther, and he won't really get the opportunity to right the wrongs that he has been doing all of his life.

[Psyren]

Given that he's carrying around an item that can concretely measure his alignment (on the moral axis anyway), I suspect we'll know he's no longer evil if and when he uses it and feels no discomfort.

Beyond that, I'll add that all his team-playing now hasn't erased the evil deeds he's done in the past, like his wanton murder of Solt. Redemption isn't just about changing your behavior going forward; he still has to at least try and make restitution for what he's done before. Simply saying "hey, I had a revelatory dream so I can be helpful to my allies now! As for the old Belkar, shrug, what can you do" and giving up - or not seeing the need to make any kind of restitution in the first place - is like committing those deeds all over again.

[dancrilis]

He's been somewhat on his way to being non-evil in the last... fifty, is it? And even that is iffy.

I would say somewhat on his way to being non-evil since 784 (last 2 panels), which was undertaken due to him being able to empathise (panel 10), which may be relevant to Durkon's discussion on the slippery slope of good (panel 6 - specifically the 'gets to ye ev'ntually' element).

Will he ever be non-evil? I don't know,
Will he ever be good? I doubt it.
Does he need to do anything to become non-evil? Yes he needs to stop being evil - but that is based on future decisions rather then past ones.

[Fyraltari]

Belkar first acted out of a moral obligation (without prospective rewards/punishment) back when he freed the allosaurus to help the bounty hunters. He even acknowledge it as the cat’s influencing him.

As for how close he is to non-evilness. I’d say 5 glazerbugfishj. That’s about as meaningful a measurement as you are going to get.

Team Vector all have each other's backs,

Not all of them. Tarquin was perfectly willing to waive the murder of Malack provided Nale submitted to his authority.

[understatement]

Not all of them. Tarquin was perfectly willing to waive the murder of Malack provided Nale submitted to his authority.

Well, Nale was his son.

@OP: I'd peg Belkar's rating at...4? It's a WIP that is unlikely to be completed.

[Fyraltari]

Well, Nale was his son.

That didn’t stop him from killing Nale, though.

[dancrilis]

That didn’t stop him from killing Nale, though.

Only after Nale made it clear he didn't want anything from him (such as his protection) - and Tarquin then killed him specifically to avenge Malack.

[hroþila]

I think it's undeniable that Belkar is less Evil now and trending towards Neutral. In absolute terms, having a capacity for empathy is less Evil than not having any capacity for empathy, feeling regret over some misdeeds is less Evil than not feeling any regrets over any misdeeds, and wanting to be a better person is less Evil than revelling in being a psychopath. It doesn't mean he's close to Neutral right now (most Evil characters have a capacity for empathy, can feel regret and don't want to be psychopaths) or that he'll ever stop being Evil, but to me it's clear that he is less Evil now.

Only after Nale made it clear he didn't want anything from him (such as his protection) - and Tarquin then killed him specifically to avenge Malack.

Meh, from the way he treated Malack (like actually treated him) I doubt avenging him was high on Tarquin's priority list.

[Fyraltari]

Only after Nale made it clear he didn't want anything from him (such as his protection) - and Tarquin then killed him specifically to avenge Malack.

Yes, so being in control of Nale’s life was more important to him than Malack’s life. Likewise he wouldn’t have abetted Malack’s desire for revenge if Nale had agreed to come back to the fold. If you have somebody’s back until it costs you something, you don’t have that person’s back.

[Morty]

If Belkar's alignment ever crosses the threshold between Evil and Neutral, I expect the comic will make it pretty clear.

[The Pilgrim]

And the punishment for a shopkeeper finding out a customer is Evil is....?

Pointless. Belkar shown in that scene that he felt ashamed of being Evil. As opposite to Traditional Belkar who would find great pleasure at gloating about how much of a bastard he was. He then proceeds to try to cover up his shame with lies, and feels further ashamed at the results. As opossed to Traditional Belkar who would have accepted the dinner and banged the chick (see his treatment of the bard rogue at Greysky City Thieve's Guild.

Feeling ashamed of yourself for being Evil is definitely a step towards Neutral. Posterior events give evidence that Belkar had taken steps to stop acting in a way that fills him with shame.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes. Belkar’s first meaningful shift away from being evil came with Durkon’s death, which was the point where Belkar first began to feel dissatisfaction with being evil (rather than revelling in it, as he previously had).

Becoming less selfish is certainly a good start, but less evil is still evil. If he had to face someone like Roy did with that Deva, the body of work balance still squarely lands on evil.

Going from Evil to Neutral, much less Good, after years of murdering innocent people for fun, requires a lot more than just not having murdered anyone in the last couple weeks.

Yes, the whole bit from Soon's ghost to Miko about regretting and acknowledging being wrong if redemption is to be had seems to fit here.

Evil people can have pets. White cats especially, traditionally)

Hmm, I am getting a James Bond Villain reference. (From the older movies).

[littlebum2002]

And the punishment for a shopkeeper finding out a customer is Evil is....?

I don't know, but panels 6 & 7 clearly show that he does not want her knowing he is Evil, for whatever reason.

And the last panel clearly shows that he wanted to take her up on her offer to buy him lunch, but felt that it was already bad enough that he ripped her off, and that having her buy him lunch as well would have been even more morally reprehensible. And while "only ripping someone off once instead of twice" is obviously not a Good act, it's certainly less Evil than the guy who killed a gnome for a chocolate bar. It is an example, along with him saving Gannji, of him becoming truly Less Evil, instead of just pretending to be Less Evil like he had planned to.

[Neponde]

Page 2, panel 8 durkon says that his ma's actions shook his world so bad, its now the event that his whole heart is built around. Panel 11, Belkar's words you could imagine coming from Durkon's lips 20 years ago (albeit with an accent). That singular event made Durkon into the dwarf he is today. That page clearly seems to be layering Belkars current experience with Durkon's. It doesn't seem like Rich would give such significant pointers if we (before he dies) were not going to see a shift in Belkar. I agree that he has a long way to go, including acknowledging past evil. But, while redemption is a rare and special thing, trying counts for a lot.

[Peelee]

Pointless. Belkar shown in that scene that he felt ashamed of being Evil.
[snip]
Feeling ashamed of yourself for being Evil is definitely a step towards Neutral. Posterior events give evidence that Belkar had taken steps to stop acting in a way that fills him with shame.

Not ashamed. Unless, of course, you wish to say Malack was ashamed and was definitely taking a step towards Neutral.

I don't know, but panels 6 & 7 clearly show that he does not want her knowing he is Evil, for whatever reason.

I agree. However, as the Malack comic shows, that is irrelevant as far as alignment goes.

Obfuscating an Evil alignment is not an unusual act for an Evil character to do.

[The Pilgrim]

Not ashamed. Unless, of course, you wish to say Malack was ashamed and was definitely taking a step towards Neutral.

So, according to your logic, if I show you a panel of Roy killing someone, then a panel of Xykon killing someone, that would constitute proof that they are moral equivalents.

Belkar hide his Evil alignment, Malack hide his Evil alignment. The difference is that Belkar then refused an invitation for lunch with the person he hide his alignment to, while Malack killed the person he hide his alignment to and transformed him into his vampiric spawn slave.

[Peelee]

So, according to your logic, if I show you a panel of Roy killing someone, then a panel of Xykon killing someone, that would constitute proof that they are moral equivalents.

If you show a panel of Roy murdering someone and Xykon murdering someone, then yes, that would constitute some moral equivalency.

Belkar hide his Evil alignment, Malack hide his Evil alignment. The difference is that Belkar then refused an invitation for lunch with the person he hide his alignment to, while Malack killed the person he hide his alignment to and transformed him into his vampiric spawn slave.

I'm sorry, I must have misread that comic. I saw Malack hiding his alignment, then having tea with Durkon. And then, much later, and distinctly separately, killing Durkon.