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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    If an unrepentant serial murderer starts to feel repentant, continues killing people, then does that make her less evil than she was before?
    I'd say more evil, on account of the conscious decision to rate murdering over feeling that murdering might be wrong.
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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    A repentant serial killer would not continue being a serial killer. If he did, he would not be *repentant*.

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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jepekula View Post
    A repentant serial killer would not continue being a serial killer. If he did, he would not be *repentant*.
    Well, there's repentance and there's Repentance. The point is that he could have some pangs of conscience and self-doubt. Whether or not you want to use the word "repentance" is besides the point. The question is whether or not you're less evil for being less-than-whole-hearted about your evil deeds.
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  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    Well, there's repentance and there's Repentance. The point is that he could have some pangs of conscience and self-doubt. Whether or not you want to use the word "repentance" is besides the point. The question is whether or not you're less evil for being less-than-whole-hearted about your evil deeds.
    I can go with a serial killer who starts to have pangs of conscience and doubting if he really is right and keeps killing. But I will still say that kind of character is not repentant. The word means turning away (from evil), and if a serial killer keeps serial killing, he hasn't repented.

    But anyway, on to the second point. Yes, a person who is joyful about murder is more evil than someone who kills and does not enjoy causing suffering to people.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morty View Post
    If Belkar's alignment ever crosses the threshold between Evil and Neutral, I expect the comic will make it pretty clear.
    I think that's why his Protection from Evil item causes harm. It gives an easy way for Rich to show his alignment. If Rich ever decides he's gone Neutral, he'll have the item activate for some reason and not hurt Belkar.

    Or it may still be hurting him up till the end, showing us that there is no redemption here.

    You need not AGREE with Rich's judgment, but he's set up a way to show us.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    I think it's undeniable that Belkar is less Evil now and trending towards Neutral. In absolute terms, having a capacity for empathy is less Evil than not having any capacity for empathy, feeling regret over some misdeeds is less Evil than not feeling any regrets over any misdeeds, and wanting to be a better person is less Evil than revelling in being a psychopath. It doesn't mean he's close to Neutral right now (most Evil characters have a capacity for empathy, can feel regret and don't want to be psychopaths) or that he'll ever stop being Evil, but to me it's clear that he is less Evil now.
    Agreed. You can be VASTLY better than early strip Belkar, and still be solidly Evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Meh, from the way he treated Malack (like actually treated him) I doubt avenging him was high on Tarquin's priority list.
    A LG character somehow in Tarquin's situation could and would have killed his son in that situation, but he'd have killed his son for being a mass murderer intent on continuing his ways with no desire or interest in repenting. We can't read Tarquin's mind, but I'm fairly sure he killed Nale for defying his father and for no longer having a role in the Story Tarquin wanted to be the Big Bad of.

    I agree that avenging Malack wasn't near the top of Tarquin's list of motivations, it was probably on the list, but well after "No one denies me!" and also well below "The story is me and Elan, we don't need this fifith wheel."

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    We can't read Tarquin's mind, but I'm fairly sure he killed Nale for defying his father and for no longer having a role in the Story Tarquin wanted to be the Big Bad of.
    Agreed. That change in Tarquin's understanding of the situation is what immediately preceded the shift from "protect Nale" to "kill Nale"; so at the very least it was a significant factor.
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  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Mr Scruffy is Belkar's archon guiding him away from evil (#807).

    We even saw him with angel wings way before then (#606).

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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizzer View Post
    Mr Scruffy is Belkar's archon guiding him away from evil (#807).

    We even saw him with angel wings way before then (#606).
    Empathy =/= non-evil. There are numerous Evil characters in the comic that have demonstrated care and understand for another sentient being.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Empathy =/= non-evil. There are numerous Evil characters in the comic that have demonstrated care and understand for another sentient being.
    Indeed. And, as luck would have it, the author of the comic at one point wrote an article that touched in this very issue!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

    "Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.

    So, how does one create realistic emotional responses? First, remember that alignment is a guide, not a strait-jacket. Not even for NPCs. Evil characters can love, good characters can hate.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Empathy =/= non-evil. There are numerous Evil characters in the comic that have demonstrated care and understand for another sentient being.
    I don't think anyone is saying that having empathy is inconsistent with being evil. Rather, the idea is that an empathetic character is less evil than a non-empathetic character, all else being equal. Rizzer only said that Belkar is being guided away from evil.
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  11. - Top - End - #71
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    Let's try a different literary reference. In Les Miserables, Jean Valjean moves from a life of crime (after an act of mercy by someone he has stolen from), and genuinely changes his life, even though he cannot make full restitution. Javert, the fanatical policeman, cannot accept the change in Valjean, and refuses to change himself, killing himself rather than admit that real change is possible in a person. Do you definitely want to be the Javert in this discussion?
    This isn't really an apt comparison.

    Valjean hardly lived a "life of crime" - he only committed a single crime (stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family) before being arrested and sent to jail for five years, which got repeatedly extended when he tried (non-violently) to escape to a total of 19 years. He then spends a week or two trying his best to get honest pay for honest work, which fails due to everyone else's deep prejudice against ex-cons. In desperation, he attempts to steal silverware from a bishop, who then gives Valjean the silverware as an act of charity (which is what makes Valjean resolve to rise above his past). Yes his life was defined by his one crime, but it's made abundantly clear that that's more the fault of society than Valjean himself.

    As for not being able to make restitution, the work he did raising Montreil-sur-Mer and its people made it clear he had more than paid his debt, morally speaking. Then he sacrificed everything he had to prevent an innocent man from going to prison, rescued an innocent child from a life of pain, and ultimately ended up risking his life for the sake of a future which gave more hope for future generations.

    Valjean was never worse than True Neutral as a character, and by the time the main narrative starts (and Javert meets him, at least in the book), he was extremely Good, with Javert being classic example of the LN variety of Lawful Stupid who simply didn't understand that people could change or that someone could break the law at one point in their life and still be a good person overall.

    That's very different from Belkar (life lived gleefully Evil, now shifting to Neutral) or Vader (life lived dogmatically Evil, one big act of Good at the end).
    Last edited by Aelyn; 2020-07-11 at 05:00 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aelyn View Post
    This isn't really an apt comparison.

    Valjean hardly lived a "life of crime" - he only committed a single crime (stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family) before being arrested and sent to jail for five years, which got repeatedly extended when he tried (non-violently) to escape to a total of 19 years. He then spends a week or two trying his best to get honest pay for honest work, which fails due to everyone else's deep prejudice against ex-cons. In desperation, he attempts to steal silverware from a bishop, who then gives Valjean the silverware as an act of charity (which is what makes Valjean resolve to rise above his past). Yes his life was defined by his one crime, but it's made abundantly clear that that's more the fault of society than Valjean himself.

    As for not being able to make restitution, the work he did raising Montreil-sur-Mer and its people made it clear he had more than paid his debt, morally speaking. Then he sacrificed everything he had to prevent an innocent man from going to prison, rescued an innocent child from a life of pain, and ultimately ended up risking his life for the sake of a future which gave more hope for future generations.

    Valjean was never worse than True Neutral as a character, and by the time the main narrative starts (and Javert meets him, at least in the book), he was extremely Good, with Javert being classic example of the LN variety of Lawful Stupid who simply didn't understand that people could change or that someone could break the law at one point in their life and still be a good person overall.

    That's very different from Belkar (life lived gleefully Evil, now shifting to Neutral) or Vader (life lived dogmatically Evil, one big act of Good at the end).
    I acknowledge the parallels are not precise, but it was the harsh restrictions Peelee was placing on redemption that I was challenging. Valjean was certainly never Evil like Belkar was before having the Mark of Justice activate, but he did steal from a 12-year-old child (though regretted it afterwards). I was less making a parallel between Belkar and Valjean, and more making a parallel between Peelee and Javert, though as he's admitted he's not familiar with Les Mis, I won't labour the point.

    I suppose I have a different view of the nature of redemption from Peelee, for reasons I don't think I'm supposed to discuss on here . I think real change is possible, and doesn't depend on a good-outweighing-evil-on-the-scales-of-justice model to be valid. As such, I think Belkar has been changing since 610, and that his Clasp of Protection from Evil will be shown to no longer hurt him, before he dies.
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  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    I acknowledge the parallels are not precise, but it was the harsh restrictions Peelee was placing on redemption that I was challenging. Valjean was certainly never Evil like Belkar was before having the Mark of Justice activate, but he did steal from a 12-year-old child (though regretted it afterwards). I was less making a parallel between Belkar and Valjean, and more making a parallel between Peelee and Javert, though as he's admitted he's not familiar with Les Mis, I won't labour the point.
    Fair enough, although I'd point out it's not really fair to describe it as Valjean stealing from the boy (I want to say his name was Petit Jacques, but it's been a long time since I read it so I might not be right there). It's clear that Valjean didn't consciously know what he was doing when he was standing on the boy's coin (although it's ambiguous whether it was an accident or a subconscious decision) and he did his utmost to return it as soon as he was consciously aware that the coin was there.

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by pyrefiend View Post
    I don't think anyone is saying that having empathy is inconsistent with being evil. Rather, the idea is that an empathetic character is less evil than a non-empathetic character, all else being equal. Rizzer only said that Belkar is being guided away from evil.
    Not necessarily; an empathetic character is less selfish than a non-empathetic character. If all Belkar cared for was his pets, then he'd still remain evil.

    Him feeling guilt and anger about Durkon, on the other hand, would be something I consider a genuine push to Neutral (however gradual it is). The fact that he'd rather expose Durkon than remain in the team's good graces does have the flavor of "personal sacrifice" to it.

  15. - Top - End - #75
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    The web archive seems to be down at the moment, so I'll dig up a proper reference later, but:

    In Rich's old gaming articles (that seem to have been removed from the site), he talks about evil villains being more 3 dimensional than purely selfish amoral psychopaths. In particular, he talks about an evil duo, one relatively weak and one strong, working together on some plan. The party in this game assume that the stronger one must be using the weaker one, and will discard him after the plan is complete. The party tries to instead convert the weaker one to their side, only to get the nasty surprise that no, the stronger really does care for and respect his friend and partner in crime, he would never discard his weaker friend, and the party ends up walking right into a trap.

    (I hope I'm summarizing this accurately, it's been years since I read it)

    Now, I'm not saying Belkar won't ever become neutral or even good, but so far everything he's done has seemed in line with the way Rich talks about villains having motivations and emotions outside pure selfishness. Granted, Belkar isn't a villain, but I think the same reasoning applies.

    EDIT: OK found it. I was off on some details (it wasn't really about narrative and characters but about game design) but I think the gist is still illustrative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew
    If you've played a lot of D&D;, you know that most of the time, the solution to a problem is based in logic. Whether it is the best way to fight a monster or the answer to a riddle, the answers will often fit into a fairly understandable pattern. Even the process of creating and advancing a character is a sort of logic problem: How can I make these rules reflect what I want to play? This deeply-rooted foundation of logic is a good thing, but it can lead to one unfortunate tendency: the assumption that the people players meet within the game world operate on a similarly logical level. But in the real world, people often act illogically, driven more by their emotions than any understanding of "how the game works." The goal of this article is to show how you can introduce seemingly pointless emotional responses in your NPC that can nonetheless be predicted and incorporated into the play experience as a form of texture.

    Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

    "Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.
    Last edited by crayzz; 2020-07-11 at 12:33 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by crayzz View Post
    The web archive seems to be down at the moment, so I'll dig up a proper reference later, but:

    In Rich's old gaming articles (that seem to have been removed from the site), he talks about evil villains being more 3 dimensional than purely selfish amoral psychopaths. In particular, he talks about an evil duo, one relatively weak and one strong, working together on some plan. The party in this game assume that the stronger one must be using the weaker one, and will discard him after the plan is complete. The party tries to instead convert the weaker one to their side, only to get the nasty surprise that no, the stronger really does care for and respect his friend and partner in crime, hewould never discard his weaker friend, and the party ends up walking right into a trap.

    (I hope I'm summarizing this accurately, it's been years since I read it)
    Pretty close.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    Not necessarily; an empathetic character is less selfish than a non-empathetic character. If all Belkar cared for was his pets, then he'd still remain evil.
    But that's pyrefiend's point. Belkar would still be evil but less so than alternate-universe-Belkar who cares for no one not even the pets. Because caring is in itself a good thing, and "evil people" cans still do good things and have good emotions, they just mostly don't. Likewise a good character can hate or despise someone without stopping to be good but is less good than the same character who deosn't hate that person.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    You know, embarrassingly, I actually checked the thread to make sure I was making a novel contribution? Not sure how I missed that.
    Quote Originally Posted by crayzz
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    Quote Originally Posted by jere7my
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by crayzz View Post
    You know, embarrassingly, I actually checked the thread to make sure I was making a novel contribution? Not sure how I missed that.
    I don't even want to think about how often I've done the same thing, if it makes you feel any better.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But that's pyrefiend's point. Belkar would still be evil but less so than alternate-universe-Belkar who cares for no one not even the pets. Because caring is in itself a good thing, and "evil people" cans still do good things and have good emotions, they just mostly don't. Likewise a good character can hate or despise someone without stopping to be good but is less good than the same character who deosn't hate that person.
    ? I was thinking that regardless if he cares about Mr Scruffy or not, it's not going to push him towards Neutral in terms of alignment shift. As a person I definitely agree that he's better, but it's not going to earn him points for the afterlife.

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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by understatement View Post
    ? I was thinking that regardless if he cares about Mr Scruffy or not, it's not going to push him towards Neutral in terms of alignment shift. As a person I definitely agree that he's better, but it's not going to earn him points for the afterlife.
    What's the point of alignment if it's not to measure how good a person a character is?
    Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-07-11 at 02:09 PM.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    What's the point of alignment if it's not to measure how good a person a character is?
    From the author:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    First, remember that alignment is a guide, not a strait-jacket. Not even for NPCs. Evil characters can love, good characters can hate.
    It's not a measuring stick, and doesn't measure how good a character is.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-11 at 02:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Part of me is imagining Belkar waking up in the Chaotic Neutral afterlife with a Slaad case manager or something, and then when he gets told he was being put in for review given his final weeks showing signs of progressive change his reply is just "Screw that, let me at the evil afterlife!"
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    From the author:

    It's not a measuring stick, and doesn't measure how good a character is.
    Right, but if behaviour changes, then so must the alignment, therefore a slight change in moral behaviour is a push towards good/evil or neutral depending on the starting postion and direction.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Right, but if behaviour changes, then so must the alignment
    True.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    therefore a slight change in moral behaviour is a push towards good/evil or neutral depending on the starting postion and direction.
    Not necessarily true. It's not as if the clasp will hurt slightly less or slightly more is he is more or less evil. It will either hurt, or will not hurt.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Not necessarily true. It's not as if the clasp will hurt slightly less or slightly more is he is more or less evil. It will either hurt, or will not hurt.
    So? That the clasp has a discrete reaction to a property doesn't mean that this property is not a continuum.

    Likewise, if one were to classify every building in the world in three categories : A under 20 meters of height, B between 20 and 50 meters of height and over 50 meters of height, would not mean that some building is category A are taller than some others in the same category.
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    So? That the clasp has a discrete reaction to a property doesn't mean that this property is not a continuum.

    Likewise, if one were to classify every building in the world in three categories : A under 20 meters of height, B between 20 and 50 meters of height and over 50 meters of height, would not mean that some building is category A are taller than some others in the same category.
    Isn't the clasp based on something in D&D with known properties, just made to affect the wielder as well?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    Isn't the clasp based on something in D&D with known properties, just made to affect the wielder as well?
    Yes? I’m not sure how that changes anything.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Yes? I’m not sure how that changes anything.
    So wouldn't we defer to the known and documented properties of the clasp in D&D, with a single caveat on affecting the wielder?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
    -Squire Doodad

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    Default Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    So wouldn't we defer to the known and documented properties of the clasp in D&D, with a single caveat on affecting the wielder?
    Yes. Again, not seeing where you are going with that.
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    Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.

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