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Thread: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
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2020-07-10, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-07-10, 02:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
A repentant serial killer would not continue being a serial killer. If he did, he would not be *repentant*.
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2020-07-10, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Well, there's repentance and there's Repentance. The point is that he could have some pangs of conscience and self-doubt. Whether or not you want to use the word "repentance" is besides the point. The question is whether or not you're less evil for being less-than-whole-hearted about your evil deeds.
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2020-07-10, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
I can go with a serial killer who starts to have pangs of conscience and doubting if he really is right and keeps killing. But I will still say that kind of character is not repentant. The word means turning away (from evil), and if a serial killer keeps serial killing, he hasn't repented.
But anyway, on to the second point. Yes, a person who is joyful about murder is more evil than someone who kills and does not enjoy causing suffering to people.
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2020-07-10, 02:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
I think that's why his Protection from Evil item causes harm. It gives an easy way for Rich to show his alignment. If Rich ever decides he's gone Neutral, he'll have the item activate for some reason and not hurt Belkar.
Or it may still be hurting him up till the end, showing us that there is no redemption here.
You need not AGREE with Rich's judgment, but he's set up a way to show us.
Agreed. You can be VASTLY better than early strip Belkar, and still be solidly Evil.
A LG character somehow in Tarquin's situation could and would have killed his son in that situation, but he'd have killed his son for being a mass murderer intent on continuing his ways with no desire or interest in repenting. We can't read Tarquin's mind, but I'm fairly sure he killed Nale for defying his father and for no longer having a role in the Story Tarquin wanted to be the Big Bad of.
I agree that avenging Malack wasn't near the top of Tarquin's list of motivations, it was probably on the list, but well after "No one denies me!" and also well below "The story is me and Elan, we don't need this fifith wheel."
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2020-07-10, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2020-07-10, 11:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-10, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-10, 11:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-07-11, 03:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
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2020-07-11, 04:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
This isn't really an apt comparison.
Valjean hardly lived a "life of crime" - he only committed a single crime (stealing a loaf of bread to feed his family) before being arrested and sent to jail for five years, which got repeatedly extended when he tried (non-violently) to escape to a total of 19 years. He then spends a week or two trying his best to get honest pay for honest work, which fails due to everyone else's deep prejudice against ex-cons. In desperation, he attempts to steal silverware from a bishop, who then gives Valjean the silverware as an act of charity (which is what makes Valjean resolve to rise above his past). Yes his life was defined by his one crime, but it's made abundantly clear that that's more the fault of society than Valjean himself.
As for not being able to make restitution, the work he did raising Montreil-sur-Mer and its people made it clear he had more than paid his debt, morally speaking. Then he sacrificed everything he had to prevent an innocent man from going to prison, rescued an innocent child from a life of pain, and ultimately ended up risking his life for the sake of a future which gave more hope for future generations.
Valjean was never worse than True Neutral as a character, and by the time the main narrative starts (and Javert meets him, at least in the book), he was extremely Good, with Javert being classic example of the LN variety of Lawful Stupid who simply didn't understand that people could change or that someone could break the law at one point in their life and still be a good person overall.
That's very different from Belkar (life lived gleefully Evil, now shifting to Neutral) or Vader (life lived dogmatically Evil, one big act of Good at the end).Last edited by Aelyn; 2020-07-11 at 05:00 AM.
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2020-07-11, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
I acknowledge the parallels are not precise, but it was the harsh restrictions Peelee was placing on redemption that I was challenging. Valjean was certainly never Evil like Belkar was before having the Mark of Justice activate, but he did steal from a 12-year-old child (though regretted it afterwards). I was less making a parallel between Belkar and Valjean, and more making a parallel between Peelee and Javert, though as he's admitted he's not familiar with Les Mis, I won't labour the point.
I suppose I have a different view of the nature of redemption from Peelee, for reasons I don't think I'm supposed to discuss on here . I think real change is possible, and doesn't depend on a good-outweighing-evil-on-the-scales-of-justice model to be valid. As such, I think Belkar has been changing since 610, and that his Clasp of Protection from Evil will be shown to no longer hurt him, before he dies.
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2020-07-11, 06:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Fair enough, although I'd point out it's not really fair to describe it as Valjean stealing from the boy (I want to say his name was Petit Jacques, but it's been a long time since I read it so I might not be right there). It's clear that Valjean didn't consciously know what he was doing when he was standing on the boy's coin (although it's ambiguous whether it was an accident or a subconscious decision) and he did his utmost to return it as soon as he was consciously aware that the coin was there.
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2020-07-11, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Not necessarily; an empathetic character is less selfish than a non-empathetic character. If all Belkar cared for was his pets, then he'd still remain evil.
Him feeling guilt and anger about Durkon, on the other hand, would be something I consider a genuine push to Neutral (however gradual it is). The fact that he'd rather expose Durkon than remain in the team's good graces does have the flavor of "personal sacrifice" to it.
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2020-07-11, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
The web archive seems to be down at the moment, so I'll dig up a proper reference later, but:
In Rich's old gaming articles (that seem to have been removed from the site), he talks about evil villains being more 3 dimensional than purely selfish amoral psychopaths. In particular, he talks about an evil duo, one relatively weak and one strong, working together on some plan. The party in this game assume that the stronger one must be using the weaker one, and will discard him after the plan is complete. The party tries to instead convert the weaker one to their side, only to get the nasty surprise that no, the stronger really does care for and respect his friend and partner in crime, he would never discard his weaker friend, and the party ends up walking right into a trap.
(I hope I'm summarizing this accurately, it's been years since I read it)
Now, I'm not saying Belkar won't ever become neutral or even good, but so far everything he's done has seemed in line with the way Rich talks about villains having motivations and emotions outside pure selfishness. Granted, Belkar isn't a villain, but I think the same reasoning applies.
EDIT: OK found it. I was off on some details (it wasn't really about narrative and characters but about game design) but I think the gist is still illustrative.
Originally Posted by Rich BurlewLast edited by crayzz; 2020-07-11 at 12:33 PM.
Originally Posted by crayzzOriginally Posted by jere7my
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2020-07-11, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-07-11, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
But that's pyrefiend's point. Belkar would still be evil but less so than alternate-universe-Belkar who cares for no one not even the pets. Because caring is in itself a good thing, and "evil people" cans still do good things and have good emotions, they just mostly don't. Likewise a good character can hate or despise someone without stopping to be good but is less good than the same character who deosn't hate that person.
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2020-07-11, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-11, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-11, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
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2020-07-11, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Last edited by Fyraltari; 2020-07-11 at 02:09 PM.
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2020-07-11, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-11 at 02:11 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-07-11, 02:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Part of me is imagining Belkar waking up in the Chaotic Neutral afterlife with a Slaad case manager or something, and then when he gets told he was being put in for review given his final weeks showing signs of progressive change his reply is just "Screw that, let me at the evil afterlife!"
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
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2020-07-11, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
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2020-07-11, 02:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-07-11, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
So? That the clasp has a discrete reaction to a property doesn't mean that this property is not a continuum.
Likewise, if one were to classify every building in the world in three categories : A under 20 meters of height, B between 20 and 50 meters of height and over 50 meters of height, would not mean that some building is category A are taller than some others in the same category.Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-07-11, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2020-07-11, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
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Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-07-11, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2020-07-11, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2017
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Re: Is Belkar Non-Evil yet?
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