Optimizing the monsters.

[HappyDaze]

I'm looking for some suggestions on optimizing some of the monsters to fight my party. In this case, the (5th level) PCs have been cutting through hordes of lizardfolk (of various types) with ease. The lizardfolk have had some opportunity to learn from their encounters, and they are aware of the following:

• The PCs (mostly) have excellent ACs.
• The PCs have a lot of healing magic, and downed foes don't stay downed.
• The PCs have a lot of area effect magic, so grouping up is a bad idea.

While the standard Lizardfolk can't really alter their plans much beyond making heavier use of javelins instead of packing in for melee, the spellcasters are a different story.
What are some alterations to the spell lists for the Lizardfolk Shaman (Druid 5) and Lizardfolk Subchief (Cleric 5) that would make them more deadly foes?
I've considered having the Shamans use moonbeam and the Subchiefs use spirit guardians for some damage that ignores AC. It's also a benefit that moonbeam can wreck the PC Druid's wild shape rampages.

[nickl_2000]

Anything targetting saves instead of AC. Hold Person, Fear, Spirit Guardian, Moonbeam, Call Lightning, Fireball, Sleep, Tashas, etc.

Set up a more interesting battlefield where the PCs have to work to get to the baddies instead of just instantly running up to them.

Set up ambushes where everyone comes from a different direction.

[Man_Over_Game]

Have the lizards attempt several things at once in separate locations, forcing the party to split up. This cuts down on their AoE and Healing capabilities hard. From there, try to set up traps at each location that will help deal with the front-liners that tried to engage first. Or use environmental advantages where those in armor would have a difficult time (such as using water as a defensive obstruction).

[MrStabby]

I'm looking for some suggestions on optimizing some of the monsters to fight my party. In this case, the (5th level) PCs have been cutting through hordes of lizardfolk (of various types) with ease. The lizardfolk have had some opportunity to learn from their encounters, and they are aware of the following:

• The PCs (mostly) have excellent ACs.
• The PCs have a lot of healing magic, and downed foes don't stay downed.
• The PCs have a lot of area effect magic, so grouping up is a bad idea.

While the standard Lizardfolk can't really alter their plans much beyond making heavier use of javelins instead of packing in for melee, the spellcasters are a different story.
What are some alterations to the spell lists for the Lizardfolk Shaman (Druid 5) and Lizardfolk Subchief (Cleric 5) that would make them more deadly foes?
I've considered having the Shamans use moonbeam and the Subchiefs use spirit guardians for some damage that ignores AC. It's also a benefit that moonbeam can wreck the PC Druid's wild shape rampages.

I would start off with asking the question where the line is between reasonable in-world response and BS metagming is. To be fair, everything you have said is on the right side of this line but always good to know your limits. Things like a caster preparing different spells as adruid might is entirely appropriate - a sorcerer knowing different spells less so. That said, if the lizards are picking who to send after the PCs of course they will pick a force with a good chance of success.

Then there is the non party-specific optimisation. If the lizards were to optimise not knowing what party they were facing then I would also think this is legitimate. Anyway... this preamble asside:

The shamans already have what seems to be a pretty decent selection of spells. Heat metal: if the party has high AC then probably at least one person is wearing metal armour. Spike growth, entangle, plant growth are all great for stopping the party grom getting to melee. Fog cloud is great with conjure animals - get something with blindsight and fog the area. This will also shut down the PCs healing spells if they need things like healing word that specify a target they can see. First step is probably to makre sure you are using what they have optimally. Plant growthing an area, going prone and throwing in non attack spells is still sometimes a threat.

New spells to consider: Hold person, especially upcast. Faerie fire if the Shamans are with martial allies or beast support.



You could also use this as a chance to develop an explore the different lizardfolk cultures and tribes in the campaign - one has wildfire druids with fireball. Another worships a powerful fey spirit ad gets access to illusions like phantasmal force and hypnotic pattern. Another leans into nature cleric and takes cleric spells...

[JackPhoenix]

Lizardfolk can last long without air. Most PCs can't. Do as crocodiles do.

[JNAProductions]

So, question! How important are the Lizardfolk? Are they the main foe, or are they a side thing?

Because if they're the main jazz, then I'd 100% amp them up a bit and make it a good challenge.

If they're NOT... Maybe this is the session where the players get to feel like total badasses. This is the session where they conquer SO HARD. This is the session where everything goes right, and they feel like gods.

It's okay to let players have a session or two of domination. As a player, I certainly wouldn't want EVERY session to be that easy, but once in a while, it's cool.

Good luck on making it fun for your players, and having fun yourself!

[Zhorn]

Cast passwall under the feet of the PCs, drop them into a ditch. Lizardfolk proceed to skewer PCs from on high, backing out of line of sight between attacks.

[LudicSavant]

While the standard Lizardfolk can't really alter their plans much beyond making heavier use of javelins instead of packing in for melee, the spellcasters are a different story.

The basic Lizardfolk can do a lot. Set traps. Use the environment. Grapple people and drag them under the swampy water. Slather their weapons with poison. Use items. Set fires. Use guerilla tactics. Or fortified positions. All sorts of things.

You even have a good way to pull the fight into the murky swamp water where the Lizardfolk have laid their ambush, without any alterations to the casters' spell lists. Heat Metal on that 'high AC' character and dive into the murky swamp. Cook and book. They try to dive after you, and suddenly they're surrounded by grappling Lizardfolk pulling them into the muddy depths, and the casters can use Plant Growth and Silence if they're having trouble moving. Or if they take the burning armor off, well they don't have that great AC anymore. That sort of thing.

[HappyDaze]

Or if they take the burning armor off, well they don't have that great AC anymore.

It's not really possible to doff armor in less than the full duration of heat metal. After 10 rounds of 2d8 (or 3d8 with an upcast), any 5th level character is likely to be dead. The bad guys have already used this approach, and it has been effective against 2/5 of the PCs, but I'd like something a little different to change things up a bit.

[Lupine]

It's okay to let players have a session or two of domination. As a player, I certainly wouldn't want EVERY session to be that easy, but once in a while, it's cool.

Mostly this.

I will say, you can optimize without having to change whole lot. For example, Lizards start attacking with hit and run ambush attacks. Lay some traps down for the party, put down some fog, and hurl javelins at them. The goal isn’t do much to kill them, but to wear them down, and whittle their resources.
Keep these attacks up. They hurl javelins, and then retreat, hiding. Once the players lower their guard, do it again. When the players get hurt, they heal up, but this slowly drains their magic an resources. Eventually, they must turn back, or risk resting overnight.

A particularly nasty trick would be to, after the party has been ambushed 5-6 times, make a deadly trap:


They begin to hate these lizardfolk. The most perceptive member spots a lizardfolk crouching in the underbrush. They charge it mindlessly, trying to prevent another ambush. A fog cloud envelopes them. As such, they never get a chance to see the pit fall. 30 feet down and several poisoned spikes later, the lizardfolk arrive, and nail the players wigh javelins. They can’t fight melee, and the fog cloud means they are effectively blinded. The lizardfolk, however, peek in just long enough to throw a javelin, then retreat to total cover, away from the wall.
Players have to fight virtually blind, on the low ground, with little ability to get up.
Does one character use spider climb? Lizardfolk swarm him, now that he has no allies. When he goes down, they continue as normal.
Use a number of Lizardfolk such that each player should be hit twice per round, on average (dmg mob rules) before any die. Have them target one player (the healer), though if a player tried to climb, or otherwise get out, then target that player.

No monster buff is needed. Just more of them, and better tactics.

[Nifft]

Environment and group composition.

For your lizardfolk, water or swampy conditions cover the former, and then some pets or allies for the latter.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make the PCs have to slog through waist-high water and knee-deep mud. All terrain is difficult terrain (but not for the lizardfolk). Depending on how long they travel through this terrain, they may be starting the battle with one or more levels of fatigue. Hopefully most have at least one level of exhaustion, imposing disadvantage on ability checks.

The Lizardfolk hide under the waist-high water to ambush. Four come out at the front PC, two use a help action, the other two grapple (athletics) with advantage and shove prone (athletics) with advantage, dragging them under the water and moving away from the party. If that character has a level of fatigue their checks are made at disadvantage. Same for the PC in the back. You can't opportunity attack something you can't see, the water is so murky the rest of the party may not even be able to tell where the front and back characters have been taken.

While that's happening more come out at the sides and attack the ones in the middle. You can use standard CR 1/2 Lizardfolk for that, just make the 'strong ones' proficient with Athletics instead of Perception. The ones using a help action can be even weaker, lizardfolk commoners. The ones using the shove action can also grapple them the next round (with another helper) so they'll need to escape two grapples to break free. If they break one grapple, a helper assists that one to re-establish their grapple. Basically you'll have two PCs prone and blinded and silenced and underwater, getting poked at while the rest of the party fights the encounter. The ones attacking the grappled characters will have disadvantage for not seeing them and also being prone to stay underwater, but advantage for hitting a prone target, so it cancels out.

[rlc]

Just let them know that the lizard people mean business. You can still target their ac sometimes, but do it with really big lizard people (like, dinosaur sized). Definitely target their saves more often, though.
And do a lot of refluffing.

[HappyDaze]

I can't really change the environment too much at this point--the PCs have invaded a three-level underground temple/dungeon (using the maps of the sahuagin lair from Ghosts of Saltmarsh) occupied by the lizardfolk. The lizardfok have the advantages of numbers, but it's hard to make good use of numbers and hit & run in 10'-wide passages. Sure, there are some bigger rooms that have been used as battle sites, but even those get clumped rather quickly and then spells like shatter, thunderwave, and spirit guardians are devastating against the masses of (generally) lesser lizardfolk.

Just let them know that the lizard people mean business. You can still target their ac sometimes, but do it with really big lizard people (like, dinosaur sized). Definitely target their saves more often, though.
And do a lot of refluffing.

There are several Lizardfolk Renders (size Large) in there, but they get clumped up really fast in the 10'-wide passages, are melee only, and only target AC. They are certainly a bit tougher, but they aren't really all that much more of a challenge nor are they really any more interesting to fight.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I like using hubgoblins

Devestator(the casters ones) to drop upcast fog cloud.
Fill the are with regular hubgoblins and 1-2 warlords.

Let the Devastators cast fireball and lighting bolt into the fog without damaging their allies and dealing extra damage because their allies was within 5ft of the target.

Work best in closed areas with some hallways.

Used it vs a party of 4 level 6 PCs.
3 warlords, 2 Devastators and 6 hubgoblins
A nice first encounter of the adventuring day( gave then a social one afterwards).

You may want to cut the numbers a little or use a "may show up reinforcement"




I will use 1 warlord, 2 Devastators and 3 Hubgoblins for level 5

[MaxWilson]

I'm looking for some suggestions on optimizing some of the monsters to fight my party. In this case, the (5th level) PCs have been cutting through hordes of lizardfolk (of various types) with ease. The lizardfolk have had some opportunity to learn from their encounters, and they are aware of the following:

• The PCs (mostly) have excellent ACs.
• The PCs have a lot of healing magic, and downed foes don't stay downed.
• The PCs have a lot of area effect magic, so grouping up is a bad idea.

While the standard Lizardfolk can't really alter their plans much beyond making heavier use of javelins instead of packing in for melee, the spellcasters are a different story.
What are some alterations to the spell lists for the Lizardfolk Shaman (Druid 5) and Lizardfolk Subchief (Cleric 5) that would make them more deadly foes?
I've considered having the Shamans use moonbeam and the Subchiefs use spirit guardians for some damage that ignores AC. It's also a benefit that moonbeam can wreck the PC Druid's wild shape rampages.

I'm short on time right now so just a brief comment: the quickest and strongest optimization most monsters can make is to stop dividing themselves for defeat in detail! If there are 50 warriors in the tribe and 3 shamans, and the party has previously cut down several groups of 10 lizardmen at a time, it's time for them to consolidate all at once and hit back with all 50 remaining lizardmen at once. Remember that the combat power of a group scales roughly as the square of the number of individuals in it: 50 warriors is approximately 25 times stronger than 10 warriors.

Try to have the fight occur near water (lizardmen can throw javelins from near the water and then retreat back underwater if the PCs move towards them, because PCs without a swim speed will take disadvantage on many weapon attacks underwater and will be much slower than lizardfolk). And of course have the shamans shamefully abuse Conjure Animals (Constrictor Snakes) to restrain PCs and give all of the warriors advantage on their javelin attacks/etc. (which will mostly go to cancelling out disadvantage for throwing javelins at long range).

[Yakmala]

1: Determine the dump stats used by the majority of the party.
2: Include monsters with abilities/spells that exploit those dump stats.
3: Profit.

[Sorinth]

I'll second hit and run tactics where they simply throw some javelins and then retreat. It doesn't even always have to be a surprise round to be effective, just deal some damage and get out.

If they chase after the Lizardfolk then they are likely led into a bigger traps/environmental hazards or possibly a bigger ambush.

It can also be good to keep a small group in reserve so that if the party splits up because the melee guys go running off after the first group of ambushers then this group would ambush the back line guys. Just having a couple rounds of distance between PCs is enough to cause serious damage if they can get one or two PCs alone.

Another powerful hit and run tactics, assuming the area is a swamp would be to grapple and drag into deep waters whoever they can trying to drown them. Have one lizardfolk use the Help action so that the other one gets advantage on the check(s). The other ambushers try to keep the rest of the party occupied, maybe a Fog Cloud to try and cover where they are dragging the PC off to. Note this doesn't have to mean death for the PC if they can't escape, the Lizardfolk could stabilize them once unconscious and bring them back to camp as a prisoner to interrogate.

Also if they have access to a poison that applies the poisoned condition for a good duration like say an hour then that is a great way to ensure future ambushes go off with a surprise round. It also makes any grapple based tactics more likely to succeed.

[Sorinth]

I can't really change the environment too much at this point--the PCs have invaded a three-level underground temple/dungeon (using the maps of the sahuagin lair from Ghosts of Saltmarsh) occupied by the lizardfolk. The lizardfok have the advantages of numbers, but it's hard to make good use of numbers and hit & run in 10'-wide passages. Sure, there are some bigger rooms that have been used as battle sites, but even those get clumped rather quickly and then spells like shatter, thunderwave, and spirit guardians are devastating against the masses of (generally) lesser lizardfolk.


There are several Lizardfolk Renders (size Large) in there, but they get clumped up really fast in the 10'-wide passages, are melee only, and only target AC. They are certainly a bit tougher, but they aren't really all that much more of a challenge nor are they really any more interesting to fight.

I haven't seen the map, but you can still use hit and run tactics in a dungeon. There are simple tricks like as the PCs approach a door the door swings open, one or two lizardfolk launch ranged attacks and then the close the door again. When the PCs get to the room and open the door the room is empty. Where possible attack from more then one direction but always retreat deeper into the dungeon.

All you want to do is soften them up while having minimal casualties. Having numbers means the Lizardfolk can always use fresh warriors, since the injured Lizardfolk that retreat can go somewhere "safe" in the dungeon and take a short rest to heal up while the party is still being ambushed/searching the dungeon.

I assume the party isn't taking any rests in the dungeon right? The goal of the ambushes should be to drain as many high level spells as possible so that when the final battle happens the PCs are close to being tapped out.

[HappyDaze]

I assume the party isn't taking any rests in the dungeon right? The goal of the ambushes should be to drain as many high level spells as possible so that when the final battle happens the PCs are close to being tapped out.

The group got one rest in by hiding in a leader's quarters and pulling off a massive bluff that they were that leader (they were hidden unseen and had a lizardfolk ally that had led them into the place do the talking backed by guidance and Bardic Inspiration) and "were not to be disturbed"--this worked once--until that leader returned along with some of his bodyguards (a render, two scaleshields, and a shadow demon--alll of which save the shadow demon were cut down rather quickly by the rested party) but tt won't work again.

[Sorinth]

The group got one rest in by hiding in a leader's quarters and pulling off a massive bluff that they were that leader (they were hidden unseen and had a lizardfolk ally that had led them into the place do the talking backed by guidance and Bardic Inspiration) and "were not to be disturbed"--this worked once--until that leader returned along with some of his bodyguards (a render, two scaleshields, and a shadow demon--alll of which save the shadow demon were cut down rather quickly by the rested party) but tt won't work again.

Ok then yeah, if they are no longer going to be able to rest you just need to make it a game of attrition.

The lizardfolk should hide, when the PCs get in range they make a ranged attack and run. Close and block the door after they flee so that they have time to setup the next ambush. Fresh lizardfolk replace any injured ones.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Try to have the fight occur near water (lizardmen can throw javelins from near the water and then retreat back underwater if the PCs move towards them, because PCs without a swim speed will take disadvantage on many weapon attacks underwater and will be much slower than lizardfolk). And of course have the shamans shamefully abuse Conjure Animals (Constrictor Snakes) to restrain PCs and give all of the warriors advantage on their javelin attacks/etc. (which will mostly go to cancelling out disadvantage for throwing javelins at long range).

Does that go a little like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv9h...etter_09072020

[HappyDaze]

Does that go a little like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv9h...etter_09072020

That was pretty awesome.

For spells, I think that giving the Subchiefs aid upcast to level 3 on the Lizard Kings/Queens (there are two) and themselves, perhaps some Renders too, would be effective as it can be cast way before the encounter starts and lasts 8 hours without concentration.

I'm also considering having both the Shamans and the Subchiefs swap out to take healing word along with having the significant lizardfolk (Lizard King/Queen, Shaman, Subchief, maybe Render) use death saves so these bad guys can bounce back from 0 hit points like the players.

[MaxWilson]

That was pretty awesome.

For spells, I think that giving the Subchiefs aid upcast to level 3 on the Lizard Kings/Queens (there are two) and themselves, perhaps some Renders too, would be effective as it can be cast way before the encounter starts and lasts 8 hours without concentration.

I'm also considering having both the Shamans and the Subchiefs swap out to take healing word along with having the significant lizardfolk (Lizard King/Queen, Shaman, Subchief, maybe Render) use death saves so these bad guys can bounce back from 0 hit points like the players.

Technically Aid also functions for healing from 0 to 5 HP, except that it works on three people not just one.

[HappyDaze]

Technically Aid also functions for healing from 0 to 5 HP, except that it works on three people not just one.

It can do that, but I think the big benefit for the bad guys is in casting it well before combat to take advantage of the no-concentration-required 8 hour duration. However, I can see your point as it is a ranged effect too...

[Satori01]

I would recommend some Elite Shamans. A cable of Lizardfolk with dyed scales,or some other extra descriptive flair.
Use 3 of them. Add some mook supporting cast, some Lizardfolk and some crocodiles.

One add an extra bit of poison damage to their claws.
Yup, this group of shaman, applies a poison to their skin, it explains their dyed scales.

Have this poison apply damage to characters that either grapple, or are being grappled by the shaman.

Have the poison damage also carry over into the shaman's Crocodile form. Describe like a werewolf transformation.

Next mix up the spells. Faerie Fire and Absorb Elements on one.
Swap out Heat Metal for Hold Person. Being Paralyzed while surrounded by crocodiles in a swamp, is brown note scary.

Give another Pass w/o Trace and ambush the PCs.
Since the trio are Druids, use Mold Earth tactics.
Pass w/o Trace with Mold Earth allows for a logical reason for the terrain to favor the Lizardfolk.
The combo is like a silent, small earth mover.

Assume the trio are Moon Druids, allow them to spend spell slots to heal in crocodile form, and consider selecting new forms more consistent with a 5th level druid.
Increase their stats just a bit, Str and Wis for sure, maybe Dex. Give them 40 HP each.

Best thing is these Shamans are still CR 2 monsters.

[DevilMcam]

If they fightbin corridoors, silence and fog cloud will be the bane of PCs magic.
Actually have both up at the same time and make it rain nasty stuff on them (acid, poison, arrows, snakes,...)
Lizardmens can fight like kobolds too.

[da newt]

Have a group of lizard men gang up on one party member with the goal of grappling them and dragging them away - use water to their advantage. This can greatly alter the standard my team on this side - your team on that side - now fight to the death ...