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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    I was looking at the Pathfinder magus and thought it was a little too complicated. And the per-day casting is frustrating because it means you run out at some point and just become a sub-par fighter. Duskblade is also underwhelming in that sense.

    So this is my stab at an alternative. It's intended as an easy-bake, single-classed character that's friendly to new players and players coming from 5e.

    Most likely it shouldn't allow multiclassing, though you can give your thoughts on that.


    Spellblade base class (Google docs)


    Please PEACH. Intended balance point is high tier 3.

    In particular, are the mana points/prepared spell numbers sufficient or too stingy, and how much imbalance is created by the at-will spells.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-08-30 at 11:23 AM.
    The Age of Warriors (revived 2019) - Huge fanmade TOB sequel. Content needs PEACH and input.

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    D&D_Fan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Is this for Age of Warriors?
    Also is this based off of the githyanki gish?
    How do you balance infinite spells?
    Last edited by D&D_Fan; 2020-07-10 at 07:10 PM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    No, this is different.

    Gish is just a general word for any class or build that mixes magic and mundane fighting. And yes, it traces to the githyanki stuff.

    They get infinite spells, but the spells they get are mostly direct damage and short-range teleportation, not the things that really make a spellcaster powerful. A standard 3.5e gish build with 9th level casting and 16 BAB could eat this class for lunch despite getting fewer spells per day. Or at least that's what I'm intending. But maybe it doesn't work out that way which is why I'm looking for feedback.
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Wouldn't the 3.5 Warlock have been an easy basis to use for infinite spells?

    Jumps of +2 at a time in the Mage Armor progression seem weird to me. Maybe +1 every 3 levels instead? And your table has the last increase listed at level 16, while the text says it's at level 15.

    Alternately, you could give a choice of 2 options. One gives proficiency with light armor, no arcane spell failure in light armor, and bestows a scaling enhancement bonus on any armor you wear, for as long as you wear it. That would be nice because you can benefit from armor special abilities, like Greater Fortification. The other option could be more or less what you already have. That one would be nice because you don't have to look like you're wearing armor.

    Alternate-alternately, you could give light armor proficiency, no spell failure in light armor, and a scaling mage armor effect to everybody. Then each character could go around unarmored when convenient without sacrificing AC, but also have the option to wear Greater Fortification armor into battle if they want.

    One gripe I have with channeling mechanics is that they don't play nice with certain other mechanics. You can't move, make a single attack, and channel. You can't charge and channel. You can't initiate a strike maneuver and channel. And you can't channel, miss the attack, and then apply the benefits of channeling to an attack of opportunity you make later that round.

    For my own attempt at something similar, I just created an assortment of invocations that were a swift action to cast and applied some rider effect to all your attacks until the start of your next turn. Some of them had an additional limitation of discharging on the first successful hit. That was my solution tho the whole channeling magical effects through your weapon trope.

    Oh, I see. Warding is where people are meant to be getting their armor special abilities. But now that I think about it, couldn't you enchant a thistledown suit and apply armor abilities to that? I guess you could load up on a lot of armor abilities by enchanting a thistledown suit and using Warding.

    Some of the abilities you've listed as being eligible for Warding aren't priced as an enhancement bonus. I don't see how flat-priced enhancements are supposed to be handled.

    Why would anyone apply Ghost Touch to Mage Armor? Mage Armor already works against ghosts.

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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    As you can see from my signature, I see Spellblade, I upvote...

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
    Wouldn't the 3.5 Warlock have been an easy basis to use for infinite spells?
    I wanted them to prepare, not use spells known. Could you dish the recovery mechanic? Yes but you'd have to add cooldowns to most of the spells which is tedious to track. Recovery mechanism gives you tactical choices at much lower complexity.

    Of course, there may be a better refresh mechanic than the one I put in.


    One gripe I have with channeling mechanics is that they don't play nice with certain other mechanics. You can't move, make a single attack, and channel. You can't charge and channel. You can't initiate a strike maneuver and channel. And you can't channel, miss the attack, and then apply the benefits of channeling to an attack of opportunity you make later that round.
    It's meant to be as simple as possible. Either use spellstrike plus hit and cast, or you can use a movement spell plus a spellstrike. Your cantrips are both movement spells, and while they're weak they cost no mana, so this choice is always theoretically present.

    For my own attempt at something similar, I just created an assortment of invocations that were a swift action to cast and applied some rider effect to all your attacks until the start of your next turn. Some of them had an additional limitation of discharging on the first successful hit. That was my solution tho the whole channeling magical effects through your weapon trope.
    Despite what I said, I do agree that channeling is a little bit eh, but if I were going to remove it I would cut out the middleman and make the spells involve melee attacks, like maneuvers.

    But now that I think about it, couldn't you enchant a thistledown suit and apply armor abilities to that?
    I thought I put in a line about this. Guess not. Fixed.

    Some of the abilities you've listed as being eligible for Warding aren't priced as an enhancement bonus. I don't see how flat-priced enhancements are supposed to be handled.

    Why would anyone apply Ghost Touch to Mage Armor? Mage Armor already works against ghosts.
    Good catch, fixed.

    You're supposed to stack warding with an animated shield however, which is why I didn't make the warding bonus higher.
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-07-11 at 02:20 AM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    5000+ views and only one PEACH? Any more feedback?
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    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Griffon

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    5000+ views and only one PEACH? Any more feedback?
    Since you have 5000 views, but only a tiny fragment of the viewers gave feedback,
    it is most likely, that the majority either silenty approves of your work, or they do not know what to say.

    If I can suggest a few changes.
    Grant the class full BAB and good will saves. Also for the sake of qualifiying for prestige classes, which need certain spell levels as minimum, I recommend the following:

    The highest spell level the Spellblade can cast, is determined by the spells they receive. If the spell exists on several spelllists, always chose the version with the lowest spell level.

    For example: Polar Ray is a 8th level Sorcerer/Wizard spell, but since it also exists as a 5th level Duskblade spell, it counts as a 5th Level spell for the Spellblade.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Elves's Avatar

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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by ThanatosZero View Post
    Grant the class full BAB
    The reason it doesn't is because its full attack already has an extra standard action baked into it from the get-go thanks to Hit and Cast. That's presumably why the PF magus has it that way too.

    Also for the sake of qualifiying for prestige classes, which need certain spell levels as minimum, I recommend the following:
    I was trying to keep it as spare as possible but you're right a clause like that is probably needed. Adding.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Your list of spells known goes from 0 to 20, which took me a second to understand. The "0th" level spells are presumably the cantrips, which always count as prepared, but that threw me off at first because of the way the spell list goes from 1-20 instead of 1-9 like most casters. I don't entirely disagree with that, but it's definitely unusual. Anyway, I think it would be a little clearer if you labeled the 0 level spells "cantrips" instead of 0th level so that I don't sit there going "...you learn these at class level 0? huh?"

    There's a surprising lack of swift actions here, from what I can see. A few spells have swift action casting times, which is nice, but only a few. Rapid Aegis seems almost necessary to make Aegis work, since spending a standard action on a purely defensive buff that doesn't help your teammates is usually not the best idea. Maybe you can make the Aegis a swift action by default, and make a feat that lets you share your Aegis effect with nearby allies?

    Mage Armor scaling by increments of +2 definitely seems weird, I don't see any reason not to make it just go up by +1 at every even level.

    Hit and Cast is a bit of an awkward name. Pity that "Spell Combat" is already taken... maybe "Arcane Assault" or something?

    I think Hypnotic Swordplay doesn't actually work. The way the Fascinated condition works in 3.5 and pathfinder, it breaks automatically if the creature is under threat. Since this is meant to be cast in combat, that seems like a problem.

    Touch the Truth doesn't seem to actually have an effect/description.

    Mostly... I like it? The spell list isn't totally boring, it has a few neat effects, but it's still pretty simple and easy to pick up, which it seems is the whole point. It can do melee or archery, which is nice, and it seems like it'll do reasonable but not insane damage.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Fun, breezy gish class with infinite spells

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurus View Post
    There's a surprising lack of swift actions here, from what I can see. [..] Maybe you can make the Aegis a swift action by default, and make a feat that lets you share your Aegis effect with nearby allies?
    That's a great point. Changed as you suggest.

    IIRC, that was how it was first written, but I thought it would be too complicated to have aegis switching be such a frequent part of the gameplay. No swift action aegis does incentivize preparing swift action spells to fill those actions, but my thought process was that it's still balanced because that results in a faster burn rate for your mana points, so it's still a tactical tradeoff, especially when you also have move action spells that can absorb your mana.

    But the higher your mana gets the less power that argument has, since combat is often only 2 rounds. So maybe swift action aegis should be a class ability that comes in at 5th level when you get 3 mana. That way it doesn't complicate the gameplay at low levels.

    Edit: Actually, I'm putting it at 7th level when those two crucial swift action spells, swift fly and swift invisibility come in.

    Alternately, Hit and Cast could be changed to "cast a standard action spell as a swift action after making a melee full attack". That would allow the BAB to be boosted to full. But on second thought that would polarize the class gameplay too much between two strategies (Hit and Cast vs Spellstrike+swift action spells).

    Mage Armor scaling by increments of +2 definitely seems weird, I don't see any reason not to make it just go up by +1 at every even level.
    The intent was to space out the class features so people aren't dealing with too much at any one level. Maybe that's unnecessary.

    Hit and Cast is a bit of an awkward name. Pity that "Spell Combat" is already taken... maybe "Arcane Assault" or something?
    I thought "Spell Combat" was too vague because it sounded like you were fighting with spells. Arcane Assault sounds good, but suffers a similar problem. I chose Hit and Cast because it was descriptive of what happens.

    I think Hypnotic Swordplay doesn't actually work. The way the Fascinated condition works in 3.5 and pathfinder, it breaks automatically if the creature is under threat. Since this is meant to be cast in combat, that seems like a problem.
    True, I'll add clarifying text.


    Do the mana and prepared spell numbers look functional?
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-08-06 at 04:24 PM.
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