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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ezekielraiden's Avatar

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    Jul 2018

    Default Hypothetical: Modified Rage + Hexblade

    Let's say that I have a DM already on board with me playing a Zealot/Hexblade, and willing to be flexible with some of its rules--though only up to a point, not the "rewrite whatever you want however you want" ridiculous hypothetical. I don't have such a DM at present, for the record, but I wouldn't bother pursuing the combo if the DM isn't on board for supporting it. This just gets us away from the "ask your DM" and "do whatever you want, your DM gave you carte blanche" non-discussion responses.

    Assume that ONLY the following two changes are made:
    (1) Rage applies to any melee weapon attack I make, not just those using Strength.
    (2) Reckless Attack works with any melee weapon attack I make, not just those using Strength.

    Does this make this multiclass combo actually viable? Are there further changes you think would be necessary, or do you think even this is excessive? How would you go about building this character (e.g. Warlock first vs Barbarian first, race, etc.)? If these changes are applied, what breakpoints are worth considering? If you feel there's another change needed to make the combination viable, feel free to specify what it is and then what breakpoints would be desirable as a result.

    My concept--assuming you care enough to get that far--is a divine warrior with a very different flavor from the Paladin or Cleric, someone who rushes headlong into battle without thought for personal safety or consequences, because "my god will provide" (or, at least, a friendly cleric will, hah!) I haven't fleshed out too heavily exactly how this would cash out, but I'm imagining someone sort of between a highly successful evangelist (high Cha, social skills) and a 4e-style Avenger ("just a robe" instead of armor, pulling a big ol' zweihander out to lay down the harshness, something of an "inquisitor" but for keeping the clergy in line rather than the lay faithful). One of the UA Class Feature Variants features for Barbarian was particularly interesting, Survival Instincts, to give a more well-rounded package outside of combat. Only a few rounds of Rage per day, but that actually works decently well alternating between major spellcasting, and Rage-fuelled prowess. Obviously I would fluff Rage as going into a divine, transcendental reverie rather than the usual Cu Chullain-style warp spasm or the like. No room for spellcasting when your eyes are full of stars and your mind full of your god's word.

    I figure something like Barb 3 (no more than that, to avoid losing my only 9th level spell)/Warlock the rest of the way. This, of course, assumes starting no earlier than 4th level, otherwise I'd throw in Warlock 1 ASAP.

    I appreciate anyone taking the time to read this far and reply. I know that hypotheticals can be dangerous territory, but I'm hopeful I can find a reasonable DM willing to entertain these (IMO slight) modifications to create a character that sticks out from the usual fare and goes somewhere interesting as a result.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
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    May 2016

    Default Re: Hypothetical: Modified Rage + Hexblade

    I'm going to preface my comments by saying... Any DM who lets you have Charisma fueled Rage AND Reckless is a VERY liberal DM and perhaps willing to push things too far. I know I wouldn't do it.

    All of that aside, part of the reason why I'm of that opinion it because you can quite happily do a Str Barbarian Warlock. The one I played is a Tortle Bearbarian (3) Daolock (7) (The new UA Genie Warlock that is phenomenally fun).

    I get 17 ac from my shell. Which means that I'm hard to hit, but not too hard. Sometimes I rage. Others I lean into the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo. Yes I took Pact of the Blade. And yes, most everything I do as a warlock has little to do with my 14 Cha. In fact, I'm Str 18 Dex 8 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 14.

    I throw on Armor of Agathys whenever I get the chance. I sometimes abuse Hex. I love flying. I LOVE my Genie Vessel. I do feel a little dirty in that I allowed myself to use GWM. When I'm not raging there are even times when I abuse Booming Blade.

    It's a wonderfully complicated build with lots of buttons to push that make it exceptionally effective in a lot of situations. It gives you the ability to be tactical. While also giving you the ability to just take it easy and go the hack and slash route. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's loads of fun.

    p.s. Don't forget how fun it is to come flying in with a level 5 Armor of Agathys active as you recklessly rage through a mountain of mooks. What your axe doesn't get, the AoA will. And because you're raging... your AoA will last twice as long.
    Last edited by GorogIrongut; 2020-07-11 at 05:21 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ezekielraiden's Avatar

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    Default Re: Hypothetical: Modified Rage + Hexblade

    Quote Originally Posted by GorogIrongut View Post
    I'm going to preface my comments by saying... Any DM who lets you have Charisma fueled Rage AND Reckless is a VERY liberal DM and perhaps willing to push things too far. I know I wouldn't do it.
    I have friends who have worked out similar (not this specifically, but both more comprehensive and arguably similarly powerful) class modifications, such as a sorcerer-based variation of the Eldritch Knight with a custom spell list. I'm fairtly confident I can eventually find someone cool with it--and even if I can't, well, as stated I may not bother even seeking it. But I appreciate the criticism and will keep that in mind.

    All of that aside, part of the reason why I'm of that opinion it because you can quite happily do a Str Barbarian Warlock. The one I played is a Tortle Bearbarian (3) Daolock (7) (The new UA Genie Warlock that is phenomenally fun).
    I'm pretty set on Zealot here--I really like the aesthetic and the symbolic effect of being willing to fling yourself into mortal danger because death is (borderline) a speedbump rather than a serious threat. I know that Bear Totem is super powerful, but that's almost too powerful for what I want to do. In theory, I actually want to "die" at least once so that the Zealot's free resurrection effect comes into play.

    And...sadly, I just don't find tortles at all interesting. Pretty much the opposite in fact. I would 110% support a fellow player (or one I'm running for) if they were interested in one, but I bounce pretty hard off them for my personal use. (If I'm being totally honest...I suspect part of it might just be that Tortles are straight-up obviously better than Dragonborn, one of my favorite races, and that galls.)

    I throw on Armor of Agathys whenever I get the chance. I sometimes abuse Hex. I love flying. I LOVE my Genie Vessel. I do feel a little dirty in that I allowed myself to use GWM. When I'm not raging there are even times when I abuse Booming Blade.
    AoA is a strategy I was keeping in mind, yes. Hex (and the Hexblade Curse) are both nice bennies. Genie pact....I'm not super keen on, TBH. It's very interesting to be sure, and I'm going to keep it in mind for my home game (which is Dungeon World rather than 5e) since it's an Arabian Nights setting. It just doesn't grab me.

    p.s. Don't forget how fun it is to come flying in with a level 5 Armor of Agathys active as you recklessly rage through a mountain of mooks. What your axe doesn't get, the AoA will. And because you're raging... your AoA will last twice as long.
    Sure, it's quite a strong effect. As noted, though, Bear is both a bit too much in my eyes, and not really the path that "speaks" to me, so...not really a concern.
    Last edited by ezekielraiden; 2020-07-12 at 05:37 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Man_Over_Game's Avatar

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    Aug 2018
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    Default Re: Hypothetical: Modified Rage + Hexblade

    Honestly, Barbarian/Hexblade is something that already works, due to the fact that Hexblade's primary feature only requires attacks, enhances criticals, doesn't require spells or Concentration, provides a benefit on killing the target, and only does so with a Bonus Action (which most Barbarians have available).

    Most of the time, these builds are used to enhance Armor of Agathys, as AoA doesn't require Concentration and becomes much more powerful the more spell levels you pump into it, and with how long you can keep it alive while being attacked (which is what Rage is for). With just a level 2 spell slot, AoA deals 10 damage per melee hit received, and if the average received hit only deals about 8 damage, that's 30 damage dealt and 10 damage blocked from a single level 2 spell slot (after accounting for Rage).

    Adding your stuff on top of that is already kind of unnecessary, but I could see something like a half-Rage bonus if you're not using Strength. I'm always on board when it comes to improving multiclass diversity, but it should always be oriented with improving diversity, not power. If it's strictly more powerful than the default options/rules, you're making the game worse.
    Last edited by Man_Over_Game; 2020-07-13 at 10:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by KOLE View Post
    MOG, design a darn RPG system. Seriously, the amount of ideas I’ve gleaned from your posts has been valuable. You’re a gem of the community here.

    5th Edition Homebrewery
    Prestige Options, changing primary attributes to open a world of new multiclassing.
    Adrenaline Surge, fitting Short Rests into combat to fix bosses/Short Rest Classes.
    Pain, using Exhaustion to make tactical martial combatants.
    Fate Sorcery, lucky winner of the 5e D&D Subclass Contest VII!

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Yakk's Avatar

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    Nov 2006

    Default Re: Hypothetical: Modified Rage + Hexblade

    You are unarmored, so need Dex/Con for AC. You need Cha for attack.

    With limited rages (caused by Barbarian 3), you'll run into problems when you cannot rage. Your AC will be poor and you won't have a way to mitigate damage. I guess you could lean on AoA?

    GWM is probably a must-do to leverage reckless attack.

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