Reach Spell feat/Breaking D&D to teach a DM?

[Kaelik]

I can't seem to find it in the books I expected. Does anyone know where it is? Or if I made it up? Or should I be only minorly Broken until I get Arcane Reach?

I'm trying to teach my DM how incredibly broken D&D can be. He apparently refuses to believe that D&D can be broken in a true game (he's so cute when he says it, we all laugh at him) and so I'm working out a few fun ways to show him.

We already have an Uber-charger, a ClericandDruidzilla, a Batman Wizard. I'm shooting for Metamagic abuse. So I have a Wizard/Incantrix. I was trying to find what best to abuse, and I realized the incredible brokenness of Shivering Touch was what I was looking for.

After working it out, I really would rather spend one feat on Reach Spell then on Greater Spell Focus for Archmage (though maybe I could use Metamagiced SLAs of Shivering Touch).

My goal is to outshine the others as much as possible. So far I have:

Quickened Sanctumed Empowered Extended Maximized Black Lore of Moiled Cooperative Shivering Touch (with Arcane Thesis) as a lvl 3 Spell. (After Incantrix 8 at level 13.)

The problem is that I want to be able to Split Ray and Chain it as soon as possible. I could wait for Arcane Reach, but I want to be able to do it from the get go (we start at level 10.). Any improvements? Other ways to reduce Metamagic?

[Fixer]

I believe this is in Complete Divine....

Yep. Page 84.

[Shishnarfne]

Uh, wouldn't sending him a link to the CharOp boards at Wizards be a little faster?

That being said, two minor details. First, I'm sure I've heard of use of Reach Spell as a feat (it might be 3.0, so Tome and Blood might be the one to check). Secondly, Archmage requires two different Spell Focus feats (generally, I don't think this means Greater Spell Focus is valid), and the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is probably less useful.

If your DM insists that the fault lies with Shivering Touch (he'd have a point), it might be nice to think of other spells that this massive metamagic trick would work with (are you sure they work together that way? I'm not familiar with Arcane Thesis.).

[Kizara]

Uh, wouldn't sending him a link to the CharOp boards at Wizards be a little faster?

That being said, two minor details. First, I'm sure I've heard of use of Reach Spell as a feat (it might be 3.0, so Tome and Blood might be the one to check). Secondly, Archmage requires two different Spell Focus feats (generally, I don't think this means Greater Spell Focus is valid), and the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is probably less useful.

If your DM insists that the fault lies with Shivering Touch (he'd have a point), it might be nice to think of other spells that this massive metamagic trick would work with (are you sure they work together that way? I'm not familiar with Arcane Thesis.).

Arcane Thesis is in the PHB2. Reach Spell (Called Divine Reach in 3.0) is now in the Cdivine.

[Kaelik]

Complete Divine? Thanks.

Secondly, Archmage requires two different Spell Focus feats (generally, I don't think this means Greater Spell Focus is valid), and the Skill Focus (Spellcraft) is probably less useful.

I already have Spell Focus Necromancy, so Greater or a Second Spell Focus doesn't matter, I was just doing it from memory. But I did forget the Skill Focus, which another point in favor of Reach Spell.

If your DM insists that the fault lies with Shivering Touch (he'd have a point), it might be nice to think of other spells that this massive metamagic trick would work with (are you sure they work together that way? I'm not familiar with Arcane Thesis.).

I have already figured out a similar set up for Ray of Stupidity. (Though obviously without Reach Spell.) I don't know what else to use from there. Of course if he decides that the spell is broken I will insist that he allow me to redo my feats to accommodate, especially Arcane Thesis. (And yes Arcane Thesis does work this way.)

[Saph]

I can't seem to find it in the books I expected. Does anyone know where it is? Or if I made it up? Or should I be only minorly Broken until I get Arcane Reach?

I'm trying to teach my DM how incredibly broken D&D can be. He apparently refuses to believe that D&D can be broken in a true game (he's so cute when he says it, we all laugh at him) and so I'm working out a few fun ways to show him.

What's the idea, get him to ban you from the game? Or just to kill your character? This isn't "teaching him", this is provoking him, and provoking a DM with a deliberately game-breaking character in order to "teach him a lesson" is an incredibly bad idea.

Honestly, this sort of attitude is exactly what causes the prejudice against optimisers. When RP-focused D&D players talk about how much they hate "powergamers", this is the kind of thing they're thinking of, and I really can't blame them for it.

- Saph

[mostlyharmful]

Just make a PC with diplomacy on it's class list. Beyound that you don't even need the polymorph spells or Candle of Extreme cheese.

Showing him that DnD can be taken out for a walk isn't exactly a challenge, nor is it a way to let the rest of the group enjoy their evenings, my advice is to suggest a 1 on 1 run on a free evening wherein you can break out the gorgonzola with impunity, then give them the CharOp address and call it a day

[martyboy74]

Vampiric Touch (heal yourself), Enervation, Finger of Death are all in core.

Also, why sanctumed? Just for the level decrease?

[Kaelik]

What's the idea, get him to ban you from the game? Or just to kill your character? This isn't "teaching him", this is provoking him, and provoking a DM with a deliberately game-breaking character in order to "teach him a lesson" is an incredibly bad idea.

Honestly, this sort of attitude is exactly what causes the prejudice against optimisers. When RP-focused D&D players talk about how much they hate "powergamers", this is the kind of thing they're thinking of, and I really can't blame them for it.

Or you could read the context and not assume the worst and realize that I have already had discussions with the DM, and he feels that practically speaking there is no way to be able to definitively crush 5 CR 10 encounters on my own, and thinks that 4 CR 10 encounters is an appropriate challenge for any party because it is impossible to deviate much from the general power level of your ECL. And we are doing this ( we because I am not outshining and ruining the experience for everyone else because they are all equally optimized or more so) as part of a prearranged test of D&D specifically for the DM, with his full knowledge of our goal and cooperation. Not as a stupid attempt to "destroy" his campaign.

We decided to run a short set up of incredible brokenness so that we would all be on the same page when we did a real campaign. Maybe you shouldn't spend all your time judging people.

[CthulhuM]

Enervation is a good spell to metamagic into ridiculousness. A split-rayed maximized enervation is 8 negative levels (as a 7th level spell with arcane thesis), so 2 of them will pretty much auto-kill anything you fight when the combo first becomes available. An average of 5 negative levels as a 5th level spell is nothing to sneer at either.

Also, polymorph + tiefling (so outsider forms are available) + assume supernatural ability (savage species) can quickly get ridiculous. It's like shapechange, but at level 7.

EDIT: Oh, and just go make a shadowcraft mage and a hulking hurler while you're at it.

[Saph]

We decided to run a short set up of incredible brokenness so that we would all be on the same page when we did a real campaign.

As has been already pointed out, breaking D&D is neither difficult nor productive. You're not going to find more than 5% of the holes and potential abuses in any one campaign, which makes the idea of a "test" a bit pointless. And your character can still be effortlessly outclassed by anyone willing to abuse the rules more than you.

And as for "judging you" . . . you were the one who put "Breaking D&D to teach a DM" in the title. Seems to me like you judged yourself.

- Saph

[Keld Denar]

I've seen some significant debate about whether or not reach spell qualifies a spell for chaining. The most significant belief seems to be no.

One thing is for sure though, reach spell DOES NOT make a spell into a ray. It makes it a ranged touch attack, like an orb, which is NOT A RAY. Therefore, you can't split ray a reaching shivering touch. You CAN twin it, but that'll cost you +4 LA(3 with AThesis). You CAN repeat spell it (another +4, or +3 with AThesis). You CAN NOT split ray it. As far as I'm aware, the only ability that turns a spell into a ray is Spellwarped Sniper's ability, and that only works on area spells.

You can abuse the rules to prove your point, but as soon as you break the rules, you point becomes invalid.

That said, shivering touch is highly abuseable, and you are on the right track. It's NOT the AoE dragon slayer that you want it to be though. Plus, all he needs to do is face you vs undead, constructs, or animated objects that are all immune to ability damage.

[sikyon]

What's the idea, get him to ban you from the game? Or just to kill your character? This isn't "teaching him", this is provoking him, and provoking a DM with a deliberately game-breaking character in order to "teach him a lesson" is an incredibly bad idea.

If the DM bans him from the game or kills his character, then the DM would probably have to do the same thing to the rest of the party. It's really not that bad of an idea to provoke a DM with a group.

The DM is being taught a lesson for a reason. If he thinks that D&D can't be broken, then the DM obviously doesn't understand enough about D&D to provide a satisfying experiance to the true rollplayer.

[Aquillion]

EDIT: Oh, and just go make a shadowcraft mage and a hulking hurler while you're at it.

The Hulking Hurler is not really that powerful a character in actual gameplay. It exists as a theoretical exercize in doing lots of damage, not as something intended to be played; and, in this case, that works against it.

Sure, you can do a lot of damage to anything you see, but even the most basic magical defenses can leave you completely ineffectual. You can only hit one enemy (or a few, I forget the exact details of the build) at a time, so a swarm of moderately dangerous creatures can overwhelm you.

You have no capabilities aside from hurling things, and that's too easily nullified to be the sole purpose of a character you actually want to play.

[Keld Denar]

You have no capabilities aside from hurling things, and that's too easily nullified to be the sole purpose of a character you actually want to play.

I dunno, most hulking hurler builds I've seen have a very high str, are large (or powerfully built) as needed by the class. They also often have brutal throw, which has Power Attack as a prereq. So....at worst case, you draw a large greatsword (greatestsword? bestsword?) and 2hand power attack with 1.5 str.

As far as multiple targets are concerned, I have seen hulking hurlers WITH master thrower levels, and the tricks that let you bounce attacks to 2ndary targets. Nothing strikes me as funnier than the idea of a 500 lb boulder pinballing off several poor saps.

Also, the problem with Killer Gnome builds is they tend to be feat starved. Gnomes don't get a bonus feat, and they only place they tend to pick up bonus feats is wiz 5 and maybe loremaster 1 (with high int only). Its hard to get all the feats needed for Killer Gnome (Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Earth Magic, Spell Focus:Illusion) and still have a bunch of feats left over for true AThesis cheese(sanctum spell, cooperative spell, empower, maximize, twin, etc) before going epic, in which case all the cheese is moot with level 21 and Epic Spellcasting feat. Also, AThesis specifically doesn't work with Heighten (by RAW) so you need to use other feats to tweak it (such as Metamagic School Focus:Illusion or Easy Metamagic:Heighten)

So incantrix is the best option to go to as far as exploiting AThesis and such. I'd suggest using eneveration as a base spell though, instead of shivering touch. YMMV.

[Jayabalard]

I'm trying to teach my DM how incredibly broken D&D can be.

Are you sure that you're old enough to play D&D?

[Solo]

Are you sure that you're old enough to play D&D?

Ages 12 and up, the game said.

[Jayabalard]

Ages 12 and up, the game said.

That's what I thought, I was pretty sure that it didn't say ages 4 and up.

[Solo]

That's what I thought, I was pretty sure that it didn't say ages 4 and up.

I fail to see the problem. Kaelik is much oldr than 12 years of age.

[Asmodoues]

He's trying to say that this is a childish activity, despite the fact that this point has been made and addressed by the original poster already.

[mostlyharmful]

Is there a 3.5 version of Polymorph Self? Back in Tome and Blood there was a Polymorph you could cast on yourself only that lasted hours/level, combine that with a rod of extend or that stone from Faerun Players guide to give all day Treant-ness. That'd be ridiculous. plus only a level 4 slot. Nothing says broken like using one level four slot to upstage half the party and take on all the days encounters alone without a problem.

The best thing about playing a Wizard broken is that you can show it can be done, agree it isn't any fun and prepare a completely new spell set the next day

[SilverClawShift]

I don't understand the hostility towards Kaelik here. His group (the entire group, DM included) have decided it'd be fun to see if the players can break out of the system they're inside of and dominate level appropriate challenges. The DM doesn't think they can, and everyone is going into this knowing exactly what to expect (DM: They're going to try to be as cheesy as possible, Players: the DM is going to be on his toes and not pulling any punches).

It sounds like they're having fun as a group. Isn't that the point of the game?

[Tor the Fallen]

As has been already pointed out, breaking D&D is neither difficult nor productive. You're not going to find more than 5% of the holes and potential abuses in any one campaign, which makes the idea of a "test" a bit pointless. And your character can still be effortlessly outclassed by anyone willing to abuse the rules more than you.

And as for "judging you" . . . you were the one who put "Breaking D&D to teach a DM" in the title. Seems to me like you judged yourself.

- Saph

Why are you being a jerk? He didn't ask you to critique his playing style, and he certainly didn't ask for the hostility. Why don't you just let people play the games they want to play?

[Miles Invictus]

I think people are glossing over the part where Kaelik says that everyone in his group is fine with this arrangement.

[Saph]

I don't understand the hostility towards Kaelik here. His group (the entire group, DM included) have decided it'd be fun to see if the players can break out of the system they're inside of and dominate level appropriate challenges. The DM doesn't think they can, and everyone is going into this knowing exactly what to expect (DM: They're going to try to be as cheesy as possible, Players: the DM is going to be on his toes and not pulling any punches).

It sounds like they're having fun as a group. Isn't that the point of the game?

You could be right - I don't know enough about the group to say one way or the other. It was really the "teach my DM a lesson" bit which I was dubious about, but if the idea is to have fun rather than to do some sort of asserting-dominance thing, then it's no problem after all.

- Saph

[Jorkens]

Tbf, the first post doesn't explain all the details very well, so you might conclude that he's out to be an arse to prove a point. It's only later that he explains that they've agreed to do it as a fun practical way to settle a theoretical argument.

[horseboy]

Your DM is either very naive or very cunning. If you guys don't have a diplomancer, make sure that you and batman have plenty of Charm Person/monsters. Nothing like taking a group of combat specced characters and sticking them into a talking situation, just to teach the players to not overly spec.

[tainsouvra]

I don't understand the hostility towards Kaelik here.

Bad phrasing choice for the OP, no doubt, and not nearly enough reading between the lines on the respondents' parts.

I was suspicious of the phrase "teach a DM" as well, but the context makes it clear that it's not a bad thing in this case, as all the other characters are designed to be game-breaking and the DM is aware of the attempt (but doesn't think it will work).

[leperkhaun]

try a bard, i cant remember where it is, but there is one build that has the bard do a song 5/day with a will save or die of something like 37.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Make Pun-Pun. If that doesn't do it, nothin' will. And make the level 1 version.