Spells for a Tier 4 Setting

[Palanan]

Given a Tier 4 setting, in which most spellcasting isn’t likely to reach above 4th-5th level, are there any spells in that range which could cause unexpected difficulties?

I’m mainly concerned with the PCs being hit with conditions they can’t easily deal with—or conversely using effects which would be less remarkable in a default setting, but which might give the PCs too much of an advantage in a Tier 4 context.

[Kurald Galain]

Right. The PCs are tier 4, so none of them are spellcasters, meaning none of them have access to magical healing, Dispel Magic, or basically any form of condition removal. Yes, it strikes me that any condition with a permanent or long-term duration, including diseases and curses, is something the PCs cannot deal with. Best go easy on them.

[Gnaeus]

Sohei get dispel and most of the condition spells at T5 (although not cure disease). Paladins and Rangers get many at T4. Dragon Shaman can access via Lay on Hands (at 12 I think?). Adept gets lots. Up to break enchantment and Heal.

[Kurald Galain]

Sohei get dispel and most of the condition spells at T5 (although not cure disease). Paladins and Rangers get many at T4. Dragon Shaman can access via Lay on Hands (at 12 I think?). Adept gets lots. Up to break enchantment and Heal.

You've overlooked the Pathfinder tag. That means Sohei and Dragon Shamen don't exist, and Paladins are not applicable since they're usually considered T3. Rangers could work though, I don't recall I've seen them played ever, though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gnaeus
Sohei get dispel and most of the condition spells at T5 (although not cure disease). Paladins and Rangers get many at T4. Dragon Shaman can access via Lay on Hands (at 12 I think?). Adept gets lots. Up to break enchantment and Heal.

This is for Pathfinder, so I'm thinking paladins, rangers, and adepts will be the main spellcasters.

Presumably adepts will be the only ones bestowing curses, animating the undead, etc., but their spell list is pretty modest. There are a lot of non-core ranger and paladin spells, though--so apart from dealing with status effects, I’m wondering if there are any corner-case spells on the ranger or paladin lists which could cause unforeseen issues.

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[legomaster00156]

Perhaps it's a good idea to establish which classes the OP will be using in this setting

[Gnaeus]

I wouldn’t consider PF Paladin T3. Certainly not with Inquisitor standing right there.

Vampire Hunter also gets Dispel and some cures. There’s probably some bloodline for bloodrager that does also.

[Psyren]

I would list the allowed classes (or link to the tier list you consider authoritiative) to avoid debates and help us know exactly what we're working with spell-list-wise. It will also help with estimating when certain remedies come online - for example, sure Restoration falls within the stated limits and can deal with permanent negative levels, but if nobody in your campaign gets it until level 13, that makes dealing with permanent negative levels before that point (i.e. most of the game) much harder.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by legomaster00156
Perhaps it's a good idea to establish which classes the OP will be using in this setting

Originally Posted by Psyren
I would list the allowed classes (or link to the tier list you consider authoritiative) to avoid debates and help us know exactly what we're working with spell-list-wise.

Based on this recent thread, this is my provisional list of classes:

Adept, Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Samurai, Slayer, Swashbuckler

From these, it looks like adept, paladin and ranger will be the casters.

Originally Posted by Psyren
It will also help with estimating when certain remedies come online - for example, sure Restoration falls within the stated limits and can deal with permanent negative levels, but if nobody in your campaign gets it until level 13, that makes dealing with permanent negative levels before that point (i.e. most of the game) much harder.

This is very useful to keep in mind, thanks. Other thoughts along these lines are very welcome.

Also, as mentioned above, I’m interested in whether there are any spells on the ranger and paladins lists which might be too strong or otherwise unsuitable for a Tier 4 context.

[Kurald Galain]

Based on this recent thread, this is my provisional list of classes:

It's funny that that matches none of the suggested tier lists in that thread

Anyway, the answer is no: pally and ranger have no spells which might be too strong or otherwise unsuitable for T4.

[Psyren]

I believe your bigger concern than "spells that are too strong" would be "remedies that come online too late" (like the Restoration example). But that is also going to depend on the monsters you plan on using.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
I believe your bigger concern than "spells that are too strong" would be "remedies that come online too late" (like the Restoration example). But that is also going to depend on the monsters you plan on using.

Okay, thanks. If you can elaborate on this, that would be extremely helpful.

[Psyren]

Okay, thanks. If you can elaborate on this, that would be extremely helpful.

What I mean is that - if you're planning to use monsters that typically require using a specific solution to avoid a TPK, then make sure that the level at which the party gets those solutions matches the CR of the creature. For example, if you throw a basilisk at the party (CR 5), your Tier 4 party is likely to struggle, because paladins don't get Break Enchantment until 13 and Adepts don't get it until 16 - every character who gets stoned is thus effectively dead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Psyren
What I mean is that - if you're planning to use monsters that typically require using a specific solution to avoid a TPK, then make sure that the level at which the party gets those solutions matches the CR of the creature.

My bad, I wasn't clear enough before. I hear you about watching out for monsters with abilities that a Tier 4 party might not be able to counter.

What I meant was if you could offer some other examples along the lines of Restoration and Break Enchantment, which might come online much later than an ordinary game (and thus ordinary monster CRs) would expect them to.

[Psyren]

My bad, I wasn't clear enough before. I hear you about watching out for monsters with abilities that a Tier 4 party might not be able to counter.

What I meant was if you could offer some other examples along the lines of Restoration and Break Enchantment, which might come online much later than an ordinary game (and thus ordinary monster CRs) would expect them to.

Those are the only ones that come to mind right now - I'd probably think of others if I dug into the paladin or ranger lists in-depth, but don't really have the time to do so.

[Alexvrahr]

Remedies can be partially worked around by having an NPC you can go to to remove curses and the like - the video game temple in town - but if the player isn't to have a couple of sessions off that may not work that well. A different workaround is to make magic herbs which can be bought or found for the purpose.

Flying monsters with ranged attacks (or even bandit archers up trees) are much more dangerous if no one in the party is a dedicated archer. No flying (OK, maybe a ranger if you're OK with monstrous mount) & no blast spells.

Incorporeal creatures can't be damaged by non-magic weapons or effects. Aside from a paladin or a monk (maybe an adept? Can't remember their spell list) no one on that list gets class abilities to make their attacks magic. Shadows may be CR 3 but don't use them before there's a couple of magic weapons in the party. Just one means things can go horribly wrong.

Swarms are often bull****. More so now.

[vasilidor]

yeah, swarms are run away territory in regular games. often even with a sorcerer or wizard, it is still not worth trying to kill the swarm.
in a tier 4 only campaign, only the horrible Kinny can save the day. I would hate playing that class.