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Thread: Reduce person abuse
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2020-07-13, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
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Reduce person abuse
Suppose a playable race has the ability to cast reduce person on themselves only 3/day with a duration of "until you make an attack". How can this be abused?
I'm trying to make a fey race, but want to avoid any obvious game balance pitfalls.
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2020-07-13, 06:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
Re: Reduce person abuse
Well, a dragonfire adept could be awesome assuming you dont have a con penalty - you dont have to make a single attack in your entire game.
The underfoot combat feat could also work well for you (wouldnt get much mileage out of confound the big folk, though)
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2020-07-13, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reduce person abuse
What’s the starting size of the race?
If all rules are suggestions what happens when I pass the save?
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2020-07-13, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Reduce person abuse
A fey isn't a valid target for reduce person
That said, it's a permanent minor boost to AC and decent boost to stealth for any class that doesn't make attacks; and you might be able to get a flying mount for cheaper than normal. Doesn't strike me as a big deal, as long as casting any offensive spell counts as an attack.Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2020-07-13, 06:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-07-13, 07:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2013
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Re: Reduce person abuse
Yeah, person abuse is bad... We should absolutely strive to reduce it.
Seriously, as others have said, it's a good deal for scouts, spies, healers, summoners, buff-focused casters, and other classes who don't rely too much on direct attacks. Also useful for getting into spaces PCs usually can't. I don't think it would imbalance a game unless the player actively tries to think up outlandish tricks, but then again most rules or spells can be exploited in that way.Avatar by Mr_Saturn
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2020-07-13, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2015
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Re: Reduce person abuse
Tiny von BigMcLargeHuge.
Doable with the Human Heritage or Human Blood feats.Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-07-13 at 07:46 AM.
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2020-07-13, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: Reduce person abuse
One thing to consider (and there might be a RAW answer that I just don't recall at the moment): Is a spell that does damage or requires a save, but does not have an attack roll, an attack?
That could change how good it is or isn't for spellcasters.
---
But, all in all, I don't think it'd be much abusable. Some, yeah maybe, in that you can make a build that avoids making attacks. But the boost from small size isn't itself game-breaking; even the stuff it could boost awesomely sounds fair to be awesome out without being really overpowered. Even adding to an optimized spellcaster wouldn't be a major boost (since what they already have, and it'd presumably mean not picking a race that boosts their spellcasting stat.)
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2020-07-13, 07:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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Re: Reduce person abuse
I'm not sure that there is a hard and fast answer for this, although Invisibility offers some clarification, at least as far as what counts as an attack for the purposes of Invisibility.
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.
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2020-07-13, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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Re: Reduce person abuse
I'd look at all the different ways you can harm your enemies without violating the definition of an "attack". Summoning other creatures to attack for you, for example, is one of the classic ways to abuse invisibility. Conjuring ice beasts and using their no-save "cold aura" for example can be a good way to "blast" your enemies with damage but without actually attacking them directly.
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2020-07-13, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2018
Re: Reduce person abuse
If dragon's breath won't work, assuming you go with the same rules as invisibility - a proximity based buffer (someone with auras/lots of touch buffs) who has summons/one powerful companion could certainly work.
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2020-07-13, 08:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reduce person abuse
Attack is defined in the Magic section of the PHB as well.
Originally Posted by Player's Handbook p. 171Last edited by Temotei; 2020-07-13 at 08:48 PM.
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2020-07-13, 08:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2014
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Re: Reduce person abuse
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2020-07-13, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
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Re: Reduce person abuse
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2020-07-14, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reduce person abuse
Get yourself a small Air Elemental as a Familiar or Elemental Companion — now you have a flying mount with speed 100' (perfect).
π = 4
Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' — Actually it's worse than that.
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2020-07-14, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reduce person abuse
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2020-07-14, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: Reduce person abuse
As alternative idea:
How about giving them the Slight Build trait from the Kobold Web enhancement?
Originally Posted by Slight Build
Imho when I compare your ability to the Kobolds ability, i don't see any crucial abuse potential.
The slight arguable edge your ability would have is:
- being tiny lets you move through occupied squares by enemies (still provoking AoO)
And it is limited by combat start as you said.
Not such a biggy imho, since most of the time getting access to some kind of "reduce person" (permanent or magic item) is not that hard to get.
Imho go with the Slight Build or your own ability, as you see it fit.Last edited by Gruftzwerg; 2020-07-14 at 09:43 AM. Reason: added link
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2020-07-14, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Reduce person abuse
Being of indeterminate size (ie can change size) is a core part of this creature's identity, so that slight build doesn't really work for it.
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2020-07-14, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2016
Re: Reduce person abuse
btw, while are at comprehensions with kobolds (or at least me^^):
Draconic Rite of Passage lets Kobolds take a single 1st lvl spell as SLA for 1/day with clvl = character level.
So, I really don't see your 3/day reduce person till combat start becoming problematic. Sure being tiny gives you some skill bonuses and allows you squeeze into small spaces, but how often will that break the game? Imho not so often.Extended Signature with Links to all my build showcases in the forum
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PACMAN, the Southern Beholder Mage (accelerated spell progression + double 9s)
Optimus Urbana Hierophantus - a Mobile Suit Gundam / Mech / Transformers build
Orko, He-man & Battlecat (a Dragonfire Mount's Ubermount and its Ubermount)
Giant Dwarf, the Rock Superstar (a War Chanter build)