What's the worst subclass in the game?

[Man_Over_Game]

Thinking about starting back up a thread series I was making a long while back, where the community worked together to pump new life into the Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret, which had an excellent end result. To clarify what this means, we're talking about reviewing exactly what niche the subclass fits mechanically and thematically, where those openings are in the 5e ecosystem, and developing a foundation that supports both thoroughly.

But first, I want to find out what everyone feels is the most-deserving of a makeover.

Please identify what your vote is clearly, bolding it (or something similar) if it's in the middle of a discussion. I just want to clearly identify what your selections are amidst any debates that might come up.

Spoiler: The results of the updated PDK

Show

In the example of the PDK, we developed it into a support class that used the similar philosophy of the Champion to revel in simplicity and universal effectiveness, thematically being a simple and humble warrior who inspires everyone to follow in their example. Any time you Action Surged or Second Winded, you gave your allies a fairly universal benefit of their choosing (between healing, attacking, rolling a saving throw, etc), so the Fighter stayed a Fighter - it just happened to mean the allies supporting you were enhanced whenever you were. THP was universal, but the special benefits (such as an extra saving throw roll or an attack) required the target's Reaction, and any attacks made had to have been against creatures that were adjacent to an affected ally (which created a sense of community).

Spoiler: My nominees so far, in no particular order:

Show

• Champion Fighter
• Arcane Archer Fighter
• Beast Master Ranger
• Undying Warlock
• Great Old One Warlock
• Berserker Barbarian
• Storm Herald Barbarian
• Draconic Sorcerer
• Wild Magic Sorcerer
• Assassin Rogue
• Thief Rogue
• Mastermind Rogue
• Scout Rogue
• War Cleric
• Spore Druid
• Four Elements Monk
• Sun Soul Monk
• Crown Paladin

Spoiler: How I'll choose the subclass for the followup thread

Show

17 points goes to your first pick, 16 for your second, and so on for every vote each person makes. Total up all the votes, highest sum is picked. This way, those who only pick one choice are still contributing.

Spoiler: Personal votes on worst subclass

Show

1. Berserker Barbarian
2. Undying Warlock
3. Spore Druid

The results are in!

[J-H]

Thief, GOOLock, LichLock, and Draconic sorc are all at least medium-tier. Lichlock is very campaign-dependent and very good against mindless undead. Champion is solid but boring, which is the intent. Berserker's 3rd level ability stinks but the others aren't bad.

Bad subclasses on your list, ranked in order:
1 Arcane Archer (bad archer, too limited)
2 4 Elements Monk (Needs more Ki and more spell choices)
3 Beastmaster Ranger (simple fix, buff the companion and remove the action penalties)
4 Wild Magic Sorc (DM dependent/bad for party)
5 Sun Soul Monk

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Berserker Barbarian is awful. I'm not sure if anything else takes significant penalties for using their main attribute... maybe you could argue Wild Sorcerer, but there is also the potential to profit and I know some people like the chaos. So, yeah, Berserker Barbarian.

[MrStabby]

Storm Herald.

This is based on barbarian - an already somewhat unexciting class and doesnt add a lot that is exciting. As a combination of unispiring and lacking in power it really benefits from an uplift. At least the frenzy barbarian can excell in some circumstances - there are at least times when you are glad you picked the subclass, not often but sometimes. Storm herald might be on average slightly better but it just kind of lacks a point.

Worse still, the concept is badass. A titanic elemental warrior that adds a real flavour to rage this is a class option that just deserves more.

[heavyfuel]

Are we considering ONLY the subclass, or the entire package of Class+Subclass?

Because, for example, I think Spore Druid is kinda bad, but they're still a freaking Druid! Even a Druid with no subclass would be an amazing character, so even if Circle of Spores sucks, it doesn't make the character suck.

[Man_Over_Game]

Are we considering ONLY the subclass, or the entire package of Class+Subclass?

Because, for example, I think Spore Druid is kinda bad, but they're still a freaking Druid! Even a Druid with no subclass would be an amazing character, so even if Circle of Spores sucks, it doesn't make the character suck.

Subclass-specific. The issue with trying to compare it as a package is due to the differing opinions on class balance. Subclasses within the same class are easy to compare, but it gets complicated once you consider classes: Fitting the Spore Druid between Dreams and Moon is something anyone can agree with, but fitting the Druid somewhere between Bard and Wizard is a lot more complicated once people start spending energy on defining the Wizard and Bard.

The more we try to consider, the more conflicting opinions will come up and we'll end up spending more time in-fighting than actually doing anything productive. 1 post of disagreement requires another 1 post of dispute, so now we have 2 posts of distracting, differing opinions that people will cling to and fight for, causing the thread to derail just from a few people trying to discuss their concerns as to where Druids sit.

So the easiest thing to do is remove the "Druid" out of the equation.

[heavyfuel]

Subclass-specific. The issue with trying to compare it as a package is due to the differing opinions on class balance. Subclasses within the same class are easy to compare, but it gets complicated once you consider classes: Fitting the Spore Druid between Dreams and Moon is something anyone can agree with, but fitting the Druid somewhere between Bard and Wizard is a lot more complicated once people start spending energy on defining the Wizard and Bard.

The more we try to consider, the more conflicting opinions will come up and we'll end up spending more time in-fighting than actually doing anything productive. 1 post of disagreement requires another 1 post of dispute, so now we have 2 posts of distracting, differing opinions that people will cling to and fight for, causing the thread to derail just from a few people trying to discuss their concerns as to where Druids sit.

Fair enough. Will come up with a list soon (probably tomorrow)

[Chronos]

On the one hand, using a berserker's class abilities can kill you... but only if you choose to overuse that one particular ability, and not doing so doesn't detract from any of your base-class abilities.

On the other hand, using a wild sorcerer's abilities can kill your entire party, and the only way to be sure of avoiding it is to never use your base class's primary ability at all.

What wild magic needs is at least some way to respond to the die roll. Like, the dice determines a random effect, but once you know what the effect is, you can choose where in range it happens, maybe.

[Man_Over_Game]

On the one hand, using a berserker's class abilities can kill you... but only if you choose to overuse that one particular ability, and not doing so doesn't detract from any of your base-class abilities.

On the other hand, using a wild sorcerer's abilities can kill your entire party, and the only way to be sure of avoiding it is to never use your base class's primary ability at all.

What wild magic needs is at least some way to respond to the die roll. Like, the dice determines a random effect, but once you know what the effect is, you can choose where in range it happens, maybe.

I think there's a little more to both of those.

The Berserker will die if you use its feature more than once each day, and it does have scaling penalties until then. Dying isn't the only bad thing that happens to you. It's less popular than the Champion, which gets like a ~+.35 effective damage bonus, compared to the Berserker's ~12 damage per encounter (after accounting for ~3 encounters per day of ~3 rounds each). This shows that consistency is more fun to players than burst effectiveness, and that nobody wants to invest into their primary subclass feature to only be relevant once a day.

The Wild Mage has a slight bias towards gaining a boon from the magic table, rarely ever gets triggered naturally (5% per spell, I might cast 4 leveled spells in a day), and it otherwise needs a combination of gambling/DM Fiat to roll on the Wild Magic table (as you give your DM permission to roll any time you force Advantage for yourself). It does also gain the power to modify the roll on the table as a higher level feature. Also, most of those rolls on the table are beneficial rather than a penalty. My biggest complaint is that it requires your DM to babysit you, and it's not very consistent. I'm a big fan of rolling on the table, but how little it's relevant combined with how major those effects are just makes a primary feature that's fairly unfun for someone who actually wants a bit more risk in their game. I like the risk, but it feels like a law that says "whenever a mirror breaks near you, flip a coin to determine whether you're a millionaire or lose 1/2 of your current limbs".

[Yakmala]

My thoughts on your selected sub-classes below. I've removed ones I have no experience with and added a few of my own selections.

Champion Fighter: There's no getting around it. They need a boost. They're great as a 3 level dip, but on their own, not so much. Even if you don't like Battle Masters and want a straightforward fighter, you are much better off with a Samurai. Main fixes for the Champion... Improve Remarkable Athlete and have Survivor start earlier and scale with level.
Arcane Archer Fighter: Number of Arcane shots per rest needs to scale with level like Battle Master.
Purple Dragon Knight Fighter: Toss and start from scratch. There's no reason to play this over a Cavalier.
Beast Master Ranger: Current RAW version needs to have controlling beast be a Bonus Action rather than Action. UA version much better in this regard.
Great Old One Warlock: Not all that bad, actually. The problem is more that Hexblade is too front-loaded making other choices seem weaker. #1 change needed for all Warlocks is to have Eldritch Blast be a class ability that scales with level rather than a cantrip. It's ridiculous that a Warlock 2 / Anything 18 can EB spam as well as a Level 20 Warlock.
Berserker Barbarian: Penalty for Frenzy is far too steep. Exhaustion is one of the worst debuffs in the game.
Storm Herald Barbarian: Not as strong as some Barbarian sub-classes but not that bad.
Draconic Sorcerer: They're fine. Just as Hexblade made other Warlock choices seem weaker, Divine Soul did the same for other Sorcerer choices.
Wild Magic Sorcerer: Remove effects on wild magic surge that can negatively impact the party. Better yet, make more of them positive like the Wild Soul Barbarian.
Assassin Rogue: The effectiveness of an Assassin is entirely dependent on the DM and how often a given DM sets up situations that allows the Assassin to do their thing. This is a tough one because allowing assassinate to happen more frequently could swing the Assassin too far in the other direction.
Thief Rogue: My favorite Rogue sub-class, even more than Swashbuckler. Being able to pick up the Healer Feat and use it with Fast Hands is amazing. Actually, Fast Hands in general is really great in the hands of a clever player. Also, being able to use any magic items at later levels can turn a Thief into a force to be reckoned with!
Mastermind Rogue: I love this sub-class, but yeah, they need help. Make the ranged Help action a free ability once per turn so that it does not eat up the half dozen other things a Rogue could/should be doing with their Bonus action.
Scout Rogue: I like them, but they are better on paper than in actuality. If the Skirmisher allowed you to move when an enemy closed to 5' but before they could take an attack action, it would be a huge improvement.
War Cleric: They're mostly fine.
Four Elements Monk: Toss and start from scratch.
Sun Soul Monk: Allow flurry of blows to be used as ranged attacks as well.
Kensei Monk: Allow Kensei to do Flurry of Blows bonus attacks with their Kensei weapon, including ranged weapons.
Crown Paladin: Turn the Tide needs buffing. Ancestral Guardian version is much better.

[J-H]

I'm not going to argue that Frenzy is good. It's not. Use it once a day for the boss fight, and only if you don't have GWM or PAM or some other source of bonus action attacks.... but it still a useful 1/day ability.

The other abilities aren't weak, though.
Immunity to fear AND charm is like half a paladin in your rage.

The Fear ability is useful out of combat as a super-Intimidate, and it's like an at-will 1st level spells. Sure, it's situational, but it's going to lead to a few really fun moments. "There's only one guard? I glare at him." "He pees his pants and runs away." "I keep glaring, every time he looks back. See? Non-violent conflict resolution."

The 14th level Retaliation ability is a top-level use of a reaction, especially for a Barbarian. You want to get hit, so that reaction attack is probably going to go off most rounds.

[Jerrykhor]

My vote for worst subclass in order:

1. Undying warlock
2. Assassin rogue
3. Champion fighter

I'd like to nominate Storm Sorcerer as well, since i don't see it here. Not sure why Draconic is here when I'm pretty sure nobody thinks its weak.

Basically, Storm sorcerer is so incredibly lame. Move 10ft after casting a spell? Meh. Deal damage to creatures within 10ft after casting spell? I'd be damned if i can make it out alive after pissing them off. You also get extra languages that you'll never use, and most DMs don't use weather enough, or at least not enough to have proper mechanics. But the absolute kicker is that for a subclass based on storms, they don't have Call Lightning.

[MeimuHakurei]

Definitely the Berserker Barbarian. Because even a dud subclass is better than one that actively makes your core feature way worse. I'd have considered the Spore Druid too but they can still use the normal wild shape, so they don't lose out on utility there.

[P. G. Macer]

1. Berserker Barbarian. Frenzy is just so bad, even if the other features are fine.

2. Crown Paladin. Where to begin? Only two of its Oath Spells aren’t already on the paladin list (and the class feature variants UA gives them to all paladins). Conquest Paladins are much better at crowd control. Turn the tide doesn’t scale and is pretty situational from the get-go, and Divine Allegiance is tanky but limited in feasibility with regards to massive damage.

3. Wild Magic Sorcerer. A.K.A. “How to cause a TPK with Comprehend Languages”. As the recent thread about the subclass pointed out, a 2% Fireball chance means it will definitely happen given enough time, and with a decent chance in Tier 1. Additionally, as one class guide pointed out, Spell Bombardment is often less powerful than the Draconic Sorcerer’s Level 6 feature.

[CTurbo]

I'm not going to argue that Frenzy is good. It's not. Use it once a day for the boss fight, and only if you don't have GWM or PAM or some other source of bonus action attacks.... but it still a useful 1/day ability.

The other abilities aren't weak, though.
Immunity to fear AND charm is like half a paladin in your rage.

The Fear ability is useful out of combat as a super-Intimidate, and it's like an at-will 1st level spells. Sure, it's situational, but it's going to lead to a few really fun moments. "There's only one guard? I glare at him." "He pees his pants and runs away." "I keep glaring, every time he looks back. See? Non-violent conflict resolution."

The 14th level Retaliation ability is a top-level use of a reaction, especially for a Barbarian. You want to get hit, so that reaction attack is probably going to go off most rounds.

I 100% agree with this. Frenzy is not great, but it is a decent once per day feature that it wouldn't be completely the end of the world if you HAD to use it twice. Yes Exhaustion is brutal and too steep a price to pay for one of your main features, but the rest of the package is decent to strong. I'd rate this higher than Battlerager and Storm Herald.

The phb Beastmaster is bad and the UA Revised is possibly too strong.

I feel like Wild Sorcerer is possibly the most misunderstood subclasses out there and is actually pretty strong. The "problem" is it's worded poorly and is subject to DM rulings.

Champion Fighter is not bad at all, but yes boring. It's much better than PDK or Arcane Archer.

The original UA Undying Light Warlock was OP, but the revised one is pretty terrible.

[Matrota]

I don't know if it's the weakest, but the Archfey Patron warlock has always bothered me because I like the flavor but it's pitifully weak compared to Fiend or Hexblade. Their first ability is a 10 foot cube around them which means any ranged warlock worth their salt will almost never use it. Their 6th level is a 1/rest misty step with invisibility for a round, which ain't bad, but it also isn't very interesting. The rest of their abilities are literally charms. 3/4 of the archfey patron abilities are charms. If you fight anything with fey ancestry you're in for a bad time if you think your abilities will be at all useful. Constructs and some other types of enemies are straight-up immune to the charmed condition, which means all your feylock has is their base warlock abilities against them. I've wanted to rework feylock for so long but I don't know what fitting changes would need to be made so it wasn't so charm-heavy and niche.

[LudicSavant]

Thinking about starting back up a thread series I was making a long while back, where the community worked together to pump new life into the Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret, which had an excellent end result. To clarify what this means, we're talking about reviewing exactly what niche the subclass fits mechanically and thematically, where those openings are in the 5e ecosystem, and developing a foundation that supports both thoroughly.

But first, I want to find out what everyone feels is the most-deserving of a makeover.

Please identify what your vote is clearly, bolding it (or something similar) if it's in the middle of a discussion. I just want to clearly identify what your selections are amidst any debates that might come up.

Spoiler: The results of the updated PDK

Show

In the example of the PDK, we developed it into a support class that used the similar philosophy of the Champion to revel in simplicity and universal effectiveness, thematically being a simple and humble warrior who inspires everyone to follow in their example. Any time you Action Surged or Second Winded, you gave your allies a fairly universal benefit of their choosing (between healing, attacking, rolling a saving throw, etc), so the Fighter stayed a Fighter - it just happened to mean the allies supporting you were enhanced whenever you were. THP was universal, but the special benefits (such as an extra saving throw roll or an attack) required the target's Reaction, and any attacks made had to have been against creatures that were adjacent to an affected ally (which created a sense of community).

Spoiler: My nominees so far, in no particular order:

Show

• Champion Fighter
• Arcane Archer Fighter
• Beast Master Ranger
• Undying Warlock
• Great Old One Warlock
• Berserker Barbarian
• Storm Herald Barbarian
• Draconic Sorcerer
• Wild Magic Sorcerer
• Assassin Rogue
• Thief Rogue
• Mastermind Rogue
• Scout Rogue
• War Cleric
• Spore Druid
• Four Elements Monk
• Sun Soul Monk
• Crown Paladin

Spoiler: How I'll choose the subclass for the followup thread

Show

17 points goes to your first pick, 16 for your second, and so on for every vote each person makes. Total up all the votes, highest sum is picked. This way, those who only pick one choice are still contributing.

Spoiler: Personal votes on worst subclass

Show

1. Berserker Barbarian
2. Undying Warlock
3. Spore Druid

Define "worst." Worst for optimization, or worst for gameplay design / my enjoyment? Or just ignore 'worst' altogether and just pick whichever concept I feel is most deserving of some love?

[Waazraath]

Just curious: is all the flack the berserker subclass gets here from playing experience, or (theoretical) objection abainst the fact that a main feature has an adverse by-effect, or both? Cause I'm playing with a berserker in my party atm, tier 2, and it does absolutely great, and even though it's in essence a mega-dungeon we're playing, the player can manage to use it often enough to be effective (and when on, it's impressive), while not suffering by effects all the time (I think 2 levels of exhaustion was the most he had). So, in my experience, it's a pretty good subclass that does what it advertises to do.

[elyktsorb]

Voting for Assassin and not because of Assassinate (though that already has the issue of never being used on high value targets unless the setup is perfect), but because of the rest of the kit that lacks synergy with its self and just seems to be kind of meh in general. Proficiency with Poisoner's Kit? Okay most poisons suck (and a lot of things are immune to it) and you don't actually give the Assassin a way to utilize poison mid-combat. Disguise Kit is also pretty situational and race dependent since it's hard to make a gnome, or a dragonborn look too different.

Infiltration Expertise takes 7 days to set up. A whole week. Has anyone ever even used this in a game that didn't specifically give them time to use it?

Impostor can't be used with Infiltration Expertise, and all it does is give you advantage on Charisma Deception checks to unerringly mimic another person's speech, writing, and behavior. Which in itself is useless unless your character is also disguised like said person in most situations. But it doesn't give you advantage on forging documents as that person, or various other faucets of espionage related to assuming someone's identity.

Death Strike is weird because it just makes Assassinate even better, but to the point of overkill? Like, be honest, is an Assassin ever going to be able to use this much damage, like, he's never going to get the drop on the Big Bad and then deal quad crit damage. If you get to lvl 17 Assassin and you surprise attack any enemy, well they should definitely die after this, but it feels like you would only get to use this on high value targets if the DM lets you for like a neat way to kill someone.

I don't think picking Assassin over any other Rogue subclass is more fun, more interesting, or more rewarding.

[MrStabby]

My vote for worst subclass in order:

1. Undying warlock
2. Assassin rogue
3. Champion fighter

I'd like to nominate Storm Sorcerer as well, since i don't see it here. Not sure why Draconic is here when I'm pretty sure nobody thinks its weak.

Basically, Storm sorcerer is so incredibly lame. Move 10ft after casting a spell? Meh. Deal damage to creatures within 10ft after casting spell? I'd be damned if i can make it out alive after pissing them off. You also get extra languages that you'll never use, and most DMs don't use weather enough, or at least not enough to have proper mechanics. But the absolute kicker is that for a subclass based on storms, they don't have Call Lightning.

No call lightning... I was never really tempted to play the class so didn't notice. I can't believe it. This seems like an oversight.

I don't know if it's the weakest, but the Archfey Patron warlock has always bothered me because I like the flavor but it's pitifully weak compared to Fiend or Hexblade. Their first ability is a 10 foot cube around them which means any ranged warlock worth their salt will almost never use it. Their 6th level is a 1/rest misty step with invisibility for a round, which ain't bad, but it also isn't very interesting. The rest of their abilities are literally charms. 3/4 of the archfey patron abilities are charms. If you fight anything with fey ancestry you're in for a bad time if you think your abilities will be at all useful. Constructs and some other types of enemies are straight-up immune to the charmed condition, which means all your feylock has is their base warlock abilities against them. I've wanted to rework feylock for so long but I don't know what fitting changes would need to be made so it wasn't so charm-heavy and niche.

I think the Archfey warlock is pretty powerful but I had to do some unusual things to make it so: I played one with a dumped charisma as a bladelock before Hexblade existed. I think that the archfey warlock does have a lot of stuff other than charm, but it doesn't scale well with level - things like faerie fire and plant growth. Casting Faerie fire as a 5th level spell seems a waste. And whilst phantasmal force doesn't count as charm, it still doesn't work on constructs.

Voting for Assassin and not because of Assassinate (though that already has the issue of never being used on high value targets unless the setup is perfect), but because of the rest of the kit that lacks synergy with its self and just seems to be kind of meh in general. Proficiency with Poisoner's Kit? Okay most poisons suck (and a lot of things are immune to it) and you don't actually give the Assassin a way to utilize poison mid-combat. Disguise Kit is also pretty situational and race dependent since it's hard to make a gnome, or a dragonborn look too different.

Infiltration Expertise takes 7 days to set up. A whole week. Has anyone ever even used this in a game that didn't specifically give them time to use it?

Impostor can't be used with Infiltration Expertise, and all it does is give you advantage on Charisma Deception checks to unerringly mimic another person's speech, writing, and behavior. Which in itself is useless unless your character is also disguised like said person in most situations. But it doesn't give you advantage on forging documents as that person, or various other faucets of espionage related to assuming someone's identity.

Death Strike is weird because it just makes Assassinate even better, but to the point of overkill? Like, be honest, is an Assassin ever going to be able to use this much damage, like, he's never going to get the drop on the Big Bad and then deal quad crit damage. If you get to lvl 17 Assassin and you surprise attack any enemy, well they should definitely die after this, but it feels like you would only get to use this on high value targets if the DM lets you for like a neat way to kill someone.

I don't think picking Assassin over any other Rogue subclass is more fun, more interesting, or more rewarding.

I think assassins do warrent a redesign. Either they outshine everyone else and no one else has fun or they don't get to use their combat abilities and the assassin doesn't have fun. I think this subclass needs more than tweaking, it needs a redesign to work better with party dynamics.

[Ignimortis]

Weakest: Berserker barbarian in a non-1-encounter-per-day game should be up there.
Worst theme: probably some cleric domain, subclasses are pretty alright theme-wise.
Worst design: Champion Fighter. I sort of blame Champion Fighter for everything that could've been good with 5e and yet didn't happen. Champion Fighter, I feel, took away the badass early NEXT playtest Fighter - though I guess a lot of things could have served as the reason for that.

[Morty]

I must vote for Scout Rogue simply because I've played it and was greatly underwhelmed. It's not even weak, just boring and mediocre. On level 6, it got me two skill proficiencies and let me run away better. If I hadn't left the campaign, I'd have got... faster movement on a character whose only impressive trait was already running around a lot. On level 13, I would have finally got something vaguely impressive and helping the party with ambushes. Then on level 17 I'd have got an extra attack that can benefit from Sneak Attack, which is alright. But the campaign never got there even after I left.

[stoutstien]

As printed my votes would be
1. Purple banner kninght
2. Berserker
3. Hex blade.

The first two both have little real way to fulfill the image in which they're trying to portray and are also mechanically subpar.hexblade gets my vote as a bad subclass because it has not flavor on it own and is slightly too much.

Honorable mentions for The Alchemist and undying.

[Chronos]

Quoth CTurbo:

The phb Beastmaster is bad and the UA Revised is possibly too strong.

It's a bit more complicated than that. The PHB Beastmaster isn't actually weak, and the UA one isn't actually all that much stronger than it. The problem was never that it was weak; the problem was that it feels weak (which, for a game like D&D, is actually a bigger problem). The UA modifications kept the power level close to the same, but made it feel more powerful, which is win-win.

Meanwhile, I have to disagree with all the folks suggesting the Champion. Yes, it's boring... but that's a feature, not a bug. The Champion's purpose is to be the boring option, for people who want boring. Maybe you could make a better boring option, but if you want a non-boring Champion, the solution already exists: Play a Battlemaster instead.

I do agree that the Hexblade is poorly designed, in having mechanics that are too good (especially when multiclassing), combined with fluff that's an incoherent mess. It's not the top of the list of what I'd change, but it's pretty near to it.

But back to my nomination of Wild Sorcerer: If you ever roll on the wild magic table at all, there is a chance you'll roll 07 or 08. Sure, it's a small chance, but for basically all of Tier 1, if that happens, it's a TPK. And the only way to prevent that from happening is to either never cast spells (and what the heck is a sorcerer who never casts spells!?), or have a DM who never chooses to have you roll on the wild magic table (in which case, you basically have no subclass at all). A TPK as a result of things completely outside of the players' control isn't something that should happen only rarely. It's something that should never happen. And any mechanic that, by design, has a chance of doing that is a bad mechanic.

[Man_Over_Game]

Meanwhile, I have to disagree with all the folks suggesting the Champion. Yes, it's boring... but that's a feature, not a bug. The Champion's purpose is to be the boring option, for people who want boring. Maybe you could make a better boring option, but if you want a non-boring Champion, the solution already exists: Play a Battlemaster instead.

I'm fine with the Champion being boring. I'm unhappy with the fact that it doesn't really do anything. With a 2d6 weapon, you're looking at basically a +0.35 damage per attack. I'd just prefer a +1 to hit or an ASI if that's the case.

It also doesn't have a theme that extends beyond "Fighter", so its not just simple to play, but also sounds boring.

Personally, I think it could be easily remodeled into a class that uses both Strength and Dexterity on its attacks. Boring and OP is my vision for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Thinking about starting back up a thread series

Great idea, but I'd like to point out that the exhaustion mechanic itself is the problem with Berserker. I've had a variety of suggestions on how to fix that mechanic before, I think I need to make a standing text file to C&P that into threads.

I'll get you my votes shortly.

[heavyfuel]

List, in order:

Champion: Hands down the worst subclass in the game. Not because it's boring, but because a ~3% damage increase is absolute garbage at level 3, and its abilities don't get much better with levels. If you want boring but good, as opposed to boring and terrible, just use the UA Brute instead.

Storm Herald: The idea of a DPR aura works great in a video game, but it sucks in D&D. 2 damage per round is nothing when most combats last 3 or 4 rounds. I'd take the Berserker over SH any day.

Sun Soul Monk: Not a single decent ability. Give it bigger numbers and it starts working.

Assassin: Assassinate sucks because you need to succeed in three consecutive rolls for it work, which means it hardly ever works. The levels 9 and 13 abilities are also terrible for most campaings. The other level 3 abilities are okay, but not great. Then every other ability also sucks.

Banneret: Giving worst versions of abilities that aren't even that great isn't a good class. I suggest giving the actual features (so at lv 3, the allies heal 1d10+lv, instead of just level; at lv 10 they gain an extra action with their reaction instead of extra attack)

4E Monks: Too few choices, too few ki points. Cannot do its thing AND be a monk because of the action economy. My suggestion is to make most of its spells bonus actions so that you can gish with it, even it you'll still be very limited ki-wise.

Scout (Rogue): The reaction to move/disengage is not super useful because when it triggers, it's probably because the enemy has already attacked you, in which case you probably already used your reaction for Uncanny Dodge. Yeah, it comes online 2 levels earlier, but as soon as you hit level 5, you'll never use this feature again.

GOOLock: The lv 1 ability is the only good thing this subclass has. Everything else is subpar.

Beastmaster (PHB): Not terribly bad, and we already have a fix (UA)

Stuff I disagree with:

Spores Druid: Symbiotic Entity's duration makes it a great pre-combat buff. It gives you more HP than a Barbarian. Lv 6 ability is a free zombie, and it's somewhat abusable. Lv 10 ability sucks, but the level 14 one is amazing!

Wild Sorcerer: Actually super fun if you're into chaos. Just tell your friends to stay away from you.

Berserker: Terrible 3rd level feature in a game with feats, actually pretty good in a feat-less game and the other features are also solid.

[Ignimortis]

Meanwhile, I have to disagree with all the folks suggesting the Champion. Yes, it's boring... but that's a feature, not a bug. The Champion's purpose is to be the boring option, for people who want boring. Maybe you could make a better boring option, but if you want a non-boring Champion, the solution already exists: Play a Battlemaster instead.

1) It's boring.
2) It's weak in its' boringness, which means that new designs will have to stay on its' level. Nobody would pick Champion if you could have Battlemaster maneuvers at-will, even limited to "+damage+rider" maneuvers only, so no infinite Precision Attack.
3) It compounds the problems of Fighter basically having no features beyond Action Surge until level 8 or so (level 9, if you're playing without feats).

[KorvinStarmast]

From Your Candidates, from "needs most help" to "needs least help"...

Champion Fighter, Arcane Archer Fighter, Beast Master Ranger, Undying Warlock, Great Old One Warlock, Berserker Barbarian, Storm Herald Barbarian, Draconic Sorcerer,
Wild Magic Sorcerer, Assassin Rogue, Thief Rogue, Mastermind Rogue, Scout Rogue, War Cleric, Spore Druid,
Four Elements Monk, Sun Soul Monk, Crown Paladin

Remove:
17. Arcane Archer - I'd suggest getting rid of this sub class. I see no value added. We have Rangers.
16. Spore Druid - I'd get rid of this sub class. I see no value added.

Needs Most Help.

15. Berserker Barbarian: fix the exhaustion mechanic. See previous comments.
14. Four Elements Monk. Reduce cost to 1 from 2 on elemental features; and make access to all elemental features part of the class, only gated by level.
13. Assassin Rogue: This requires redoing how surprise is done. Not sure if this is fixable. But when it all comes together, particularly if you put a bit of poison on the weapon before a strike, there's some nice nova damage there.
12. Storm Herald: increase damage for the elemental effects, and don't require a bonus action to activate each round. Let it stay on once rage has begun.
11. Beast Master Ranger: bonus action to activate animal companion actions/attacks; CR scale up of Companion with tier increase (at level 11, have a dire wolf, at level 17, a CR 2 beast ... ). Otherwise leave alone. Has spells, has other skills.
10. Wild Magic Sorcerer: fine as written except every time a leveled spell is cast, roll to see if wild magic goes off. Do not over burden DM with this. Yes, it will not fit in some parties, this random "whoa, you are a potte plant" thing.
9. GOO: I see nothing wrong with this, but maybe offer a bit more power to level 14 feature. I like telepathy out of the box.
8. Mastermind Rogue: I'll reserve judgment on this, as I am guessing that higher levels is where the problem lies. Our (less than 10) level Master mind was great as a support.
7. Champion Fighter: add one more skill proficiency (as with Rangers) at character creation. Add a leadership feature somewhere at level 10, and add a fighting style with each proficiency bonus upgrade. Fighter is supposed to be master of fighting; reflect that in the class features. So, add a fighting style at levels 5, 9, 13, 17. Also, remarkable athlete ought to give advantage on Athletics checks.
6. Scout Rogue seems fine, but I have not seen one past tier 2 so I may be missing something.
5. War cleric is fine. Full caster. Heavy Armor. Not seeing the problem.
4. Crown Paladin: it's a paladin, so any problem with it is not much.
3. Thief Rogue: nothing wrong with this class, and UMD helps out a lot at higher levels. Yes, there are magic items in the game. It's part of the game. Up to the party to divvy them out.
2. Draconic Sorcerer: Nothing Wrong with basic sorcerer, but it needs what all sorcerer's need. One more meta magic, accrued at level 7.
1. Sun Soul Monk - played one, this Monk isn't a problem.
Least Help

[LudicSavant]

https://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fu...-kinds-of-fun/

Now, *I* think the Champion is boring, but the Champion isn't for me. It's probably for people who want the kind of fun called "submission/abnegation" in that article. That and introducing new players.

It could be done better, but I wouldn't call it the worst from a gameplay standpoint because it does successfully occupy an ecological niche and see play as a result. Also, the kind of folks who like the Champion generally don't care about optimization ceilings or having tons of options. They don't crave options or tactical depth. They want to just lay back, relax, and press the button and sometimes be extra happy when they press the button because it's randomly a crit. Abnegation.

If anything, giving an Abnegation-targeting class a high optimization ceiling might actually work at counter purposes, because optimizers *do* generally want options and tactical depth and for their greater strength to be the result of a clever strategem, not just hitting the button again but luckier this time. They want to stop and think about how they can do better next time and then see the dividends from that.

So while I have no interest whatsoever in Champion personally, it's a low priority for me to actually change it. The people it's built for seem to like it, and I can just accept that it's not a class built for the kinds of fun that I enjoy and respect that. I do throw them free Expertise so they have more to do out of combat, though. *Shrug*