Theory: Colorblindess is an Azurite royal disease

[Quizatzhaderac]

So we know that Hinjo is color blind, that color blindness is genetic, and that the Azurite ruling families have been ruling for quite some time.

We also know that the city is remarkably dedicated to it's color scheme. It's probably best to dismiss this as an out of universe choice, but over analysis is fun.

So I'm thinking that a lot of the aristocracy can't tell hues apart well. So designers started using only one hue so they could approximate what their colorblind employers saw (being as that it's easier to design something you can actually see yourself).

Being as this is what the rich and powerful were doing, the general public started to imitate. Eventually, hue stopped being part of design theory.

Also, I'm going to assume the city's has an overpowered dyer's guild like in Abu Kir the Dyer and Abu Sir the Barber (the dyers guild didn't do colors other than blue and didn't allow foreigners to open shop there).

[Squire Doodad]

Seems reasonable.

[bravelove]

neat! that does make sense

[Fyraltari]

Red-Green colorblindness is tied to the X-chromosome meaning it's unlikely to happen in women (it's recessive) and impossible to pass from father to son. However a red-green colorblind woman will always pass it to her sons and a healthy carrier woman will have one in two chances to pass it on.

This means that if Soon's father was colourblind, Soon's own colourblindness is entirely dependent on his mother's genes (However Soon's sister would at least have been a carrier, meaning that Hinjo would have had either 50 or 100% odds of being colourblind).

Since Azure City inheritance seems to be patrilinear, that the ruling family had chronic colorblindness seems improbable as it would require that it be endemic in either the nobility class or the whole population.

Hay, that's good, it's not just the royal family, it's all the noble families.

[hamishspence]

Red-Green colorblindness is tied to the X-chromosome meaning it's unlikely to happen in women (it's recessive) and impossible to pass from father to son. However a red-green colorblind woman will always pass it to her sons and a healthy carrier woman will have one in two chances to pass it on.

This means that if Soon's father was colourblind, Soon's own colourblindness is entirely dependent on his mother's genes (However Soon's sister would at least have been a carrier, meaning that Hinjo would have had either 50 or 100% odds of being colourblind).

Since Azure City inheritance seems to be patrilinear, that the ruling family had chronic colorblindness seems improbable as it would require that it be endemic in either the nobility class or the whole population.

Hay, that's good, it's not just the royal family, it's all the noble families.

Shojo, not Soon. But yes.

[Fyraltari]

Shojo, not Soon. But yes.

Yep, I was thinking how Soon wasn't part of the royal family so of course I got him mixed up.

[littlebum2002]

Great theory, but you have one problem. Here, i'll fix it for you:

So we know that Hinjo is color blind, that color blindness is genetic, and that the Azurite ruling families have been ruling for quite some time.

We also know that the city is remarkably dedicated to it's color scheme. It's probably best to dismiss this as an out of universe choice, but over analysis is fun.

So I'm thinking that a lot of the aristocracy can't tell hues apart well. So designers started using only one hue to save money

Being as this is what the rich and powerful were doing, the general public started to imitate. Eventually, hue stopped being part of design theory.

Also, I'm going to assume the city's has an overpowered dyer's guild like in Abu Kir the Dyer and Abu Sir the Barber (the dyers guild didn't do colors other than blue and didn't allow foreigners to open shop there).

There, that's much more realistic.

[Grey Watcher]

So we know that Hinjo is color blind, ...

Wait, I'm normally pretty good at remembering various bits of trivia from this series, but I have no memory of that being established anywhere. What am I forgetting?

[Peelee]

Wait, I'm normally pretty good at remembering various bits of trivia from this series, but I have no memory of that being established anywhere. What am I forgetting?

Forum commentary.

If Rick had decided to make Bandana colourblind, I would just as much want that colourblindness to have a function in the story; now or in the future. Because else, why bother writing in an explicitly colourblind character? Sure they exist, but why mention it?

I don't give a damn if diversity in OOTS has a function in the story. Diversity in OOTS has a function in real life. I will happily sacrifice any or all story logic on the altar of accomplishing one fraction of an ounce of real good in the real world. The story is a tool for getting my ideas across, nothing more. Some of those ideas are thoughts on D&D and how it should be played, some are thoughts about right and wrong, and some are thoughts about the world around us and how we should treat other people. If there was a problem with OOTS before, it was that it was not properly reflecting how I see the world; now, it's a little closer.

For you, OOTS is a silly little comic strip you read a few times a month. For me, it's eleven years of my life and a primary source on my thoughts and feelings that people will use to judge my contributions to the world and any future works I create. If I want to make it more closely align with how I really feel, I'm going to ****ing well do it.

Also: Last time I checked, colorblind people enjoy the full extant of rights and privileges that people with full spectrum vision enjoy, and it is in fact thoroughly illegal to discriminate against someone for colorblindness, as it would be for anyone suffering a medical disability. If colorblind people were being denied the same rights as other people—or even getting killed for being colorblind—you could damn well be sure I would be certain to include one in OOTS.

EDIT: Hinjo is red-green colorblind. CANON.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There, that's much more realistic.

No, that isn't more realistic. Noble families in monarchical systems tend to need to make things as expensive as possible to show off status, not save money. More "realistic" is that the blue shade used everywhere is ridiculously expensive imported stuff from far away. Such was the case, for example, with purple in roman times.

Red-Green colorblindness is tied to the X-chromosome meaning it's unlikely to happen in women (it's recessive) and impossible to pass from father to son.

No reason to assume that is the case in OotS, though.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

No reason to assume that is the case in OotS, though.

Grey Wolf

We also have no reason to assume that people make children via sexual intercourse in OOTS rather than, say, by having one partner carry the other on their shoulders while sining row, row, row your boat backwards, yet I will assume that unless given a reason not to.

[Peelee]

No, that isn't more realistic. Noble families in monarchical systems tend to need to make things as expensive as possible to show off status, not save money. More "realistic" is that the blue shade used everywhere is ridiculously expensive imported stuff from far away. Such was the case, for example, with purple in roman times.

Grey Wolf

White wedding dresses also spring to mind.

We also have no reason to assume that people make children via sexual intercourse in OOTS rather than, say, by having one partner carry the other on their shoulders while sining row, row, row your boat backwards, yet I will assume that unless given a reason not to.

Kudzu gives us reason.

[hroþila]

But surely those designers would benefit from reducing their own production costs, whether or not they subsequently inflated the price for their aristocratic and royal customers.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We also have no reason to assume that people make children via sexual intercourse in OOTS rather than, say, by having one partner carry the other on their shoulders while sining row, row, row your boat backwards, yet I will assume that unless given a reason not to.

The reason should be obvious: it invalidates the theory of the thread, but has no solid base on which to do so. Sure, the most common RL color blindness is carried in the sexual chromosome. Are all of them? Is it a requirement? Could it be that there are colour blindness that are carried in the male line? If so, your objection is meaningless. If not, then you need to do a significant better case for why colour blindess cannot possibly be present in Azure City royalty than "the most common RL one is carried by the female line".

But surely those designers would benefit from reducing their own production costs, whether or not they subsequently inflated the price for their aristocratic and royal customers.

To a degree, yes, but only to a degree. If a process becomes cheap enough (say, artificial dies), and the secret comes out (and that kind of thing cannot be kept a secret, not when a single dissatisfied apprentice has every incentive to tell their boss' powerful and rich customers), then the nobles will literally move on to a different way of signifying wealth.

White wedding dresses also spring to mind.

Indeed. Also, red-soled shoes.

Grey Wolf

[Schroeswald]

Kudzu gives us reason.

Do we know that Hilgya and Durkon DIDN'T do that?

[Fyraltari]

White wedding dresses also spring to mind.

Kudzu gives us reason.

Point taken.

The reason should be obvious: it invalidates the theory of the thread, but has no solid base on which to do so. Sure, the most common RL color blindness is carried in the sexual chromosome. Are all of them? Is it a requirement? Could it be that there are colour blindness that are carried in the male line? If so, your objection is meaningless. If not, then you need to do a significant better case for why colour blindess cannot possibly be present in Azure City royalty than "the most common RL one is carried by the female line".
Grey Wolf

All forms of red-green color blindness that I could find were indeed tied solely to the X-chromosome. I am no expert in the field, though, if you know of one that isn’t I’d be interested in learning about it.

And no, it doesn’t invalidate the theory since it onmy requires a change from ‘royal line’ to ‘most noble lines’. And given that, due to how political marriages works, noble families, including the royal one, tend to just be one big family intermarrying (which is the best kind of place for genetic defects such as colourblindness to manifest) is a trivial change.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

All forms of red-green color blindness that I could find were indeed tied solely to the X-chromosome.

But not all forms of colour blindness. Tritanopia is not a defect of the X chromosome, and indeed it is dominant. Again, there is no reason to assume that OotS has the exact same colour blindness genetics as RL. In very much the same way this thread speculates that it is carried by the noble families, it can also assume it is a non-sexual chromosome genetic defect.

Grey Wolf

[Quizatzhaderac]

Since Azure City inheritance seems to be patrilinear, that the ruling family had chronic colorblindness seems improbable as it would require that it be endemic in either the nobility class or the whole population.

By analogy, European royalty is also patrilinear, and hemophilia is also an X chromosomal disease. But they cared very much about the families their wives came from, so Queen Victoria was able to spread it all around Europe.

But yes, I am imagining a sort of endemic situation. It exaggerates real life, but so does everything in the setting. Also, unlike hemophilia, it's not a huge problem to be bred or selected out.

Great theory, but you have one problem. Here, i'll fix it for you:

*does some research*

Blue dyes tend to be expensive, azure being one of the most expensive dyes of all. I'm going to amend my head cannon.

The area around Azure city is/was home to the world's largest azurite mine (the mineral, not the people) , as well cobalt mines (used to make arch-typical Chinese porcelain ), and good spots for indigo farming. The azure mine formed a major components of the city's trade when it formed, thus naming the city/people after the rock.

The formative aristocracy was a mix of colorblind people and color-sighted people wanting to flex their wealth by using the expensive azure dye. Poorer people could sort of imitate the style by using indigo.

Designers have a ranking of blues by expensiveness/classiness.

1. Sapphire (associated with divinity)
2. Ultramarine (associated with nobility)
3. Azure (associated with merchantry)
4. Cobalt (associated with craftsmen)
5. Indigo (associated with commoners and farmers)
6. Celtic blue (associated with barbarians)

Orange holds a special separate place representing place representing all that is a threat to peace and order. Yes, this is related to their relationship with the hobgoblins.

The people from the surrounding countryside are known as Diànqīng (which means indigo in mandarin).

[Cazero]

All forms of red-green color blindness that I could find were indeed tied solely to the X-chromosome. I am no expert in the field, though, if you know of one that isn’t I’d be interested in learning about it.

Here's the factor you overlooked : OotS might not have chromosomes to begin with.
If species as wildly different as dragons and humans can interbreed, real world genetics are pretty much disproven.

[Keltest]

Here's the factor you overlooked : OotS might not have chromosomes to begin with.
If species as wildly different as dragons and humans can interbreed, real world genetics are pretty much disproven.

Absent some alternative being presented by the story itself, we pretty much have to default to the real world workings if we want to discuss this at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here's the factor you overlooked : OotS might not have chromosomes to begin with.
If species as wildly different as dragons and humans can interbreed, real world genetics are pretty much disproven.

Given how often mixed species children inherit phenotypical characteristics from both parents, I'd say that they have something close enough to genetics as to make little difference, and even if there are no actual chromosomes, there is something similar enough we might as well reuse the vocabulary.

Grey Wolf

[RatElemental]

We do know that natural selection and thus evolution are not currently in effect, though they might be applicable to the current system if it goes long enough. But the gods might also have to 'patch' that in somehow.

However, unless they were letting O-Chul dye his beard while he was a prisoner, Azurites appear to have naturally blue-purple hair colors. I think we can rule color blindness not linked to sex chromosomes as possible in light of that.

[Peelee]

Do we know that Hilgya and Durkon DIDN'T do that?

I didn't say proof, I just said he gives us reason to think something.

[dancrilis]

We don't know if he was always colour blind - or if it only developed after some curse was visited upon him by some kind of entity to make some sort of point that will likely never be explained to Hinjo.

[Doug Lampert]

But surely those designers would benefit from reducing their own production costs, whether or not they subsequently inflated the price for their aristocratic and royal customers.

But using only one dye DOES NOT reduce their costs unless they are using a cheaper one dye.

Modern production, doing X one way and Y a different way is expensive, because you now need two processes and it's at least twice as expensive to automate.

Until shown the autolooms and spinnning jennies of Azure City industry, I will assume that this is all hand work, which means that multiple colors just means picking up a different spool for this part of the cloth. It doesn't mean you need a vastly more complicated machine, because the most primitive hanging looms we know of could do it.

All hand work means that customized or multiple colors really does not cost anything extra. The dye costs the cost of the dye, weaving costs the cost of the weaver, and simple multicolor patterns are not extra.

The cost of dying your fabric is the cost of the dye(s). One color, or 57 shade plaid, that's pretty much true either way when it's all hand work. And since the dye is applied to spools of thread, and the weaving and spinning are separate jobs, your weaver simply buys one or many colors as is appropriate.

[137beth]

However a red-green colorblind woman will always pass it to her sons

Well, not always. For example, if her son has De la Chapelle syndrome then he could just end up being a carrier (I'd assume?)

But, I agree with the others who have said there isn't much reason to assume genetic conditions work in the OOTSverse in exactly the same way they work in the real world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But using only one dye DOES NOT reduce their costs

I mostly agree, but wouldn't a single-colour thread weaving be cheaper to manufacture? On the basis that it will not be capable of having as many errors as a complex one where a colour thread one stitch over will be far more apparent to the trained and even the untrained eye? Not sure, though, how often a weaver makes that kind if mistake, and thus what time cost would be associated, and thus saved, with a simpler pattern.

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

Well, not always. For example, if her son has De la Chapelle syndrome then he could just end up being a carrier (I'd assume?)

Well, yes, one mustn’t say never in biology.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Here's the factor you overlooked : OotS might not have chromosomes to begin with.
If species as wildly different as dragons and humans can interbreed, real world genetics are pretty much disproven.

In real life creatures are not intelligently designed. This means a few things.

Things are different for no good reason. Mammals evolved hearts with four chambers, and birds did so separately. The sets genes for the same trait are not the same so if you mix and match them you won't get a working four chamber heart. With intelligent design the gods would probably design one heart and reuse the genes as much as possible.

Secondly, problems that don't often prevent a creature from reproducing don't get fixed. Humans can't breed with dolphins because it's a huge fix with no fitness advantage and there's no benefit to the incremental steps. D&D gods wanted sapient creatures to be able to interbreed. This isn't extraordinarily difficult (in the context of being able to create sapient creatures in the first place) it's just something nature never bothers with.

I mostly agree, but wouldn't a single-colour thread weaving be cheaper to manufacture?

The thing is the Azurites don't use a single color. They use a single hue. The use light blue, dark blue, black, white, glossy blue, off-white with a bluish tint. They sky's the limit as long as it's blue.

[KorvinStarmast]

Forum commentary.

While I was glad to see that Rich stood by his guns - nice job there -IRL color blindedness is a disqualifying trait in some professions. I am not sure what he means by "discrimination" but I'll offer two examples: my dad tried to join the Marines (near the end of WW II) and he was disqualified due to red green color blind. The Army took him, he ended up in the signal corps doing morse code. Might be why I exist, when I think about it ...
Multiple candidates/hopefuls for military flight training (to include one of my college room mates) are shown the door and advised to pursue other careers since red green color blindness is a disqualifying feature.

Hinjo is trying to be neither of the above, so he's good to go.

EDIT: Hinjo is red-green colorblind. CANON.

Hmm random thought: do dogs have trouble in discriminating colors? I seem to remember hearing that once.

My favorite color is blue. Azure City would probably please me, IRL, or, drive me away from blue due to the "too much of a good thing ruins it" theory.

The area around Azure city is/was home to the worlds largest azurite mine (the mineral, not the people)...are known as Diànqīng (which means indigo in mandarin).

Man, that was a fine post. Have a fresh cup of coffee, on me.

We don't know if he was always colour blind - or if it only developed after some curse was visited upon him by some kind of entity to make some sort of point that will likely never be explained to Hinjo.

Rat was having a bad day, and lashed out at the Azurites.

Things are different for no good reason. {snip} They sky's the limit as long as it's blue.

I saw what you did there. Have another cuppa Joe.