Who wants to protest WotC's stopping 3.5

[el minster]

Hello all. For all of you unhappy with WotC's discision to stop making more books for D&D 3.5 we can do somthing about that! We can protest! We can send emails to WotC demanding a few more books! We can make them hear us! And the reason we and this is because together we are powerful!

This thread is here to measure support for this issue and to ask for ideas about the specifics. Remember, together we can do anything.

[JNAProductions]

Hello all. For all of you unhappy with WotC's discision to stop making more books for D&D 3.5 we can do somthing about that! We can protest! We can send emails to WotC demanding a few more books! We can make them hear us! And the reason we and this is because together we are powerful!

This thread is here to measure support for this issue and to ask for ideas about the specifics. Remember together we can do anything.

It's... It's been done for over a decade now.

5th edition is nearly six years old now. There was an entire 4th edition that's ALSO done.

[el minster]

Yes, but people still play 3.5 not many people play 4e

[JNAProductions]

Yes, but people still play 3.5 not many people play 4e

And more people play 5th edition than 3.5.

Moreover, there's Pathfinder, and probably a dozen other 3.5esque systems you could pick up.

Even more, what new content would they produce?

[el minster]

They could take online content and put it in books

[JNAProductions]

They could take online content and put it in books

And... What else? Moreover, online content is already available, online. People who want it can access it.

Heck, go to DMs Guild, the website. You can buy most of the 3.5 books there, in PDF format.

[el minster]

naysayer

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by el minster
They could take online content and put it in books….

We had a thread about this a few months ago, and several of us contacted WotC with this very suggestion. We were ignored completely. Wizards is done with 3.5.

Originally Posted by JNAProductions
Moreover, online content is already available, online.

Until Wizards decides to remove it, as they did wholesale several months ago. That was what sparked the prior thread.

Wizards did restore the content, but I doubt if that had anything to do with what a few 3.5 grognards said on the internet. Long-term, online content is inherently unreliable, and at some point they will probably pull the plug for good.

[ImNotTrevor]

I'm gonna agree with the sentiment of not being at all upset about this.

Support lent to content that is currently niche and becoming MORE niche is only worthwhile if they make more money selling the content than they spend on the employee hours spent making it. If they crossed that threshold, they should stop wasting that money. 3.5 has a veritable mountain of content, official and homebrew and third party combined, it's absolutely astounding just how much content there is. They're good to go.

This is much the same reason why they no longer make games for the Playstation 2, Original X-box, nor Gamecube. They're just not being played enough nor moving enough product to justify the expense. So there's no reason to spend the cash.

3.5 is done, man. Been done for a decade. No reason to beat that dead horse and take resources away from the new hotness.

[el minster]

We had a thread about this a few months ago, and several of us contacted WotC with this very suggestion. We were ignored completely. Wizards is done with 3.5.



Until Wizards decides to remove it, as they did wholesale several months ago. That was what sparked the prior thread.

Wizards did restore the content, but I doubt if that had anything to do with what a few 3.5 grognards said on the internet. Long-term, online content is inherently unreliable, and at some point they will probably pull the plug for good.

if you have enough people protest it will work

[Bartmanhomer]

I agree with El. We should have a say in this situation and email Wizard of the Coast about it.

[JNAProductions]

We had a thread about this a few months ago, and several of us contacted WotC with this very suggestion. We were ignored completely. Wizards is done with 3.5.

Until Wizards decides to remove it, as they did wholesale several months ago. That was what sparked the prior thread.

Wizards did restore the content, but I doubt if that had anything to do with what a few 3.5 grognards said on the internet. Long-term, online content is inherently unreliable, and at some point they will probably pull the plug for good.

That's fair. I could reasonably see an ask for a print version of online-only content, in a collection, to be printed.

But outside that... What's really left to do for 3.5?

[el minster]

Not much but it would be nice to have all that stuff in a book

[Aotrs Commander]

You're well over a decade late. It's just not happening, dude.

PATHFINDER 1 is done, and that's over ten years old. (And you'd have more luck pursauding Paizo to make more PF1, to be honest.)

It woudn't have mattered even if you'd protested at the TIME (because I garentee you, a lot of us did NOT buy much, if any, of 4E and it didn't matter, because WotC had already decided), when the 3.5 fanbase was the least divided it ever was. There CERTAINLY isn't enough left NOW that care, even from the vast majority of the people who still play 3.5 don't care that WotC stopped officially supporting it a decade ago.

It was damned lucky, to be honest, that enough people complained that they got the web articles back up at that's really a trivial thing for them to do in this day an age.

It's entirely possible that none of the D&D people at WotC now even wrote anything of 3.5 - at which point, they'd be less able at it than any of us on the forums.



3.5 is done, officially. Like AD&D is done. It's not officially coming back, not much how you might personally want it to. (And I'm saying this as someone who has used 3.5 as the system of choice basically since it came out.) But, y'know, there's, like all of Pathfinder and two decade's worth of third party material plus homebrew to pull from, and a lot it is better balanced and thought out than a lot of latter-end 3.5 was anyway *cough*Complete Psionic*cough*.

So why do you care that you aren't getting something from a company that moved on a tenth of of a century ago?

[el minster]

But what if we got The Giant on board didn't he used to work for WotC?

[Aotrs Commander]

But what if we got The Giant on board didn't he used to work for WotC?

No, he did not. He did a bit of OotS as a back-up strip in Dragoin for a bit as I recall and he made a proposal for a campaign world (but that went to the chap who did Eberron), but that's it.

And, let me brutally honest, why would WotC care even if he did and even if you did get him on board?

They would not. Hell, they wouldn't care if, like, Vin Diesel was on your side, and let's be real, I'm sorry and no offense to Rich, but Mr Vin Diesel is a MUCH more influential figure than a gentleman that writes a webcomic in terms of marketing and capital.



Sorry, mate, but you're going to have to let it go. It's just not happening any more than Disney are going to scrap the nuCanon Star Wars and bring back the old one less everything from the new Jedi Order onwards, anymore than Reboot is going get a proper conclusion, anymore than EA is suddenly going to re-instate Bioware and Westwood and Bullfrog and start making proper games again aso I can get Jade Empire 2 and a proper C&C 4 and TIE Fighter 2 and DungeonKeeper 3.

Stuff ends. Stuff you like ends, or moves on, or changes. And you can't do frack all about, and believe me, I would very much like if that didn't happen, since that happens to pretty much EVERYTHING I like, but it does.

And this isn't even like a TV show or something with finite content, it's a set of RPG rules you can keep playing with forever.

Pick your battles. Trying to get a massive corporation to revive a set of rules that's been dead for over a decade when even the majority of its former fanbase have moved on, especially one in direct competetion with its current extremely successful one is not a battle that's worth fighting.

[el minster]

No, he did not. He did a bit of OotS as a back-up strip in Dragoin for a bit as I recall and he made a proposal for a campaign world (but that went to the chap who did Eberron), but that's it.

And, let me brutally honest, why would WotC care even if he did and even if you did get him on board?

They would not. Hell, they wouldn't care if, like, Vin Diesel was on your side, and let's be real, I'm sorry and no offense to Rich, but Mr Vin Diesel is a MUCH more influential figure than a gentleman that writes a webcomic in terms of marketing and capital.



Sorry, mate, but you're going to have to let it go. It's just not happening any more than Disney are going to scrap the nuCanon Star Wars and bring back the old one less everything from the new Jedi Order onwards, anymore than Reboot is going get a proper conclusion, anymore than EA is suddenly going to re-instate Bioware and Westwood and Bullfrog and start making proper games again aso I can get Jade Empire 2 and a proper C&C 4 and TIE Fighter 2 and DungeonKeeper 3.

Stuff ends. Stuff you like ends, or moves on, or changes. And you can't do frack all about, and believe me, I would very much like if that didn't happen, since that happens to pretty much EVERYTHING I like, but it does.

And this isn't even like a TV show or something with finite content, it's a set of RPG rules you can keep playing with forever.

Pick your battles. Trying to get a massive corporation to revive a set of rules that's been dead for over a decade when even the majority of its former fanbase have moved on, especially one in direct competetion with its current extremely successful one is not a battle that's worth fighting.

It says he worked for WotC on his wikipedia page

[Tom Kalbfus]

I'm gonna agree with the sentiment of not being at all upset about this.

Support lent to content that is currently niche and becoming MORE niche is only worthwhile if they make more money selling the content than they spend on the employee hours spent making it. If they crossed that threshold, they should stop wasting that money. 3.5 has a veritable mountain of content, official and homebrew and third party combined, it's absolutely astounding just how much content there is. They're good to go.

This is much the same reason why they no longer make games for the Playstation 2, Original X-box, nor Gamecube. They're just not being played enough nor moving enough product to justify the expense. So there's no reason to spend the cash.

3.5 is done, man. Been done for a decade. No reason to beat that dead horse and take resources away from the new hotness.

PlayStation is tech dependent, D&D is not, 3.5 is a pen and paper game and so is 5th, 4th, and 1st and 2nd edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Pen and Paper games don't become obsolete like electronic games do. You need a PlayStation to play a PlayStation game, but you use the same pen, paper, and dice to play all 5 editions of D&D.

[Peelee]

We should have a say in this situation

Why?

No, he did not. He did a bit of OotS as a back-up strip in Dragoin for a bit as I recall and he made a proposal for a campaign world (but that went to the chap who did Eberron), but that's it.

And, let me brutally honest, why would WotC care even if he did and even if you did get him on board?

They would not. Hell, they wouldn't care if, like, Vin Diesel was on your side, and let's be real, I'm sorry and no offense to Rich, but Mr Vin Diesel is a MUCH more influential figure than a gentleman that writes a webcomic in terms of marketing and capital.



Sorry, mate, but you're going to have to let it go. It's just not happening any more than Disney are going to scrap the nuCanon Star Wars and bring back the old one less everything from the new Jedi Order onwards, anymore than Reboot is going get a proper conclusion, anymore than EA is suddenly going to re-instate Bioware and Westwood and Bullfrog and start making proper games again aso I can get Jade Empire 2 and a proper C&C 4 and TIE Fighter 2 and DungeonKeeper 3.

Stuff ends. Stuff you like ends, or moves on, or changes. And you can't do frack all about, and believe me, I would very much like if that didn't happen, since that happens to pretty much EVERYTHING I like, but it does.

And this isn't even like a TV show or something with finite content, it's a set of RPG rules you can keep playing with forever.

Pick your battles. Trying to get a massive corporation to revive a set of rules that's been dead for over a decade when even the majority of its former fanbase have moved on, especially one in direct competetion with its current extremely successful one is not a battle that's worth fighting.

Whoah, holdon just a second there, I can't believe what I just read, it's really hard for me to relate here. Are you saying that we got a proper C&C 3?

Of course, by "C&C", I mean exclusively "Red Alert", since all non-RA C&C's... well, aren't RA.

Also, I heard a bunch of good things about Jade Empire after KOTOR.

[Tarmor]

I want Advanced D&D back, d6 Star Wars (WEG) and 3rd edition Shadowrun!

No, not really... even though two of those are my preferred systems over the later ones.

It's not like 3.5 is dead. Like any other system that has officially been replaced, there are still people who play it, and as others have said, there's so much stuff that exists that is accessible for download or purchase. I'm certain that you could never run/play all of it anyway. Why do you want more? You certainly can't need more.

[Aotrs Commander]

It says he worked for WotC on his wikipedia page

Okay, assuming that isn't just referring to the aforementioned webcomic - what does it matter even if he did?

He doesn't work there NOW, and he wasn't the head honcho or anyone with editorital mandate or project direction or anything, so again, why would WotC care what one of their former employees said?

The answer is they don't.



Look, dude, 4E DID start to tank after a while, but they didn't bring back 3.5 then, they're certainly not going to do it now, because a couple of people on a forum want them to.

Again, PATHFINDER ran for more years than 3.5 did, so there was clearly enough money to sustain a business, because Paizo have thrived for the past decade. But for WotC? That's not enough money to get out of bed.

hell, I remember someone formerly of the WotC staff having to explain to the Hasbro board or shareholders or whatever than 3.x's success was really meaningful, because by comparison to the toy stuff, it looked like pocket change; the sort of numbers they were getting would be considered a massive failure in the tou market.

The long of the short of it is, there is simply neither the money nor the motivation for them to ever go back to 3.5. And the maybe handful of people you could scrape from a forum isn't even going to register.



There's a big difference between them putting back some web articles and investing in the effort for publishing (which is chuffing expensive) and all the rest of it. The one requires one or two ladies or gentlemen and a few hour's work and the other costs a lot of money and involves lots of people.



It is, in essense, the same thing I have to tell people when they say "Bleakbane, why don't you do a model for such-and-such and engineering vehicle?" And I say "are you going to pay £75-100 for it? No? Then it's not worth doing then, because I'm sure not doing it for the fun of it." Because even wargamers will ever only want one (as opposed to regular tanks) and they take twice as long to CAD design for a bare fraction of the sales. So unless someone is litrally paying what I set as a pittance for my wages for the hours, it ain't happening. That's the reality.



You might have more chance trying to persuade people to start up a kickstarter to have the SRD printed into a cut-down version of the core rules so you could get that done as a limited print run (assuming such a thing diesn't already exist), since more people might be interested in replacing their old, falling apart rule books.

(I wouldn't be one of them - one of the reasons I've spent hundreds of hours on 3.Aotrs was a slow transfer of everything I use to digital so when my books fall apart, it won't matter, I can just print it out myself.)

[el minster]

Maybe he knows people who could print just one or two more books

[JNAProductions]

Maybe he knows people who could print just one or two more books

Highly unlikely.

[Aotrs Commander]

Maybe he knows people who could print just one or two more books

You can't just "print one or two more books."

Have you ever written a set of rules? Have you ever editied anything? Done the graphic design the set-up? The artwork? All of those take a huge amount of time. And that's not EVEN counting the time to write the rules - to playtest them (as you're not REALLY suggesting that they print stuff without playtesting, are you? How would that makre them any better than anyone on the forums, doing homebrew?)

Even just re-printing is not a simple task, like using your home printer; it requires a huge amount of money and time.



Look, I don't know how much clearer I can be about this. What you want is unrealistic, and you can grasp at straws all you like, but what you want is not going to happen because you want it to and no amount of wishful thinking is going to make it happen.

I can pretty much guarantee that all you have thought about is writing an email to WotC saying you want something, isn't it? On a whim? Because you didn't start a thread with "who would be interested in trying to get a print-run of 3.5" with the intention of starting a kickstarter, or of sending a carefully constructed proposal to WotC with a business plan to demonstrate it would be worth their while, which might have garnered you as far as a polite response from them. But no, you started a thread about making a protest. What was your plan for that? Did you have one, other than send a few emails? No? Then why would you expect anyone to pay any attention to it, if you don't care enough to actually make an effort? Because I can tell you now, no-one is going to come along and solve your problems for you, no-one is going to do it for you. That's not how reality works. If you want this to happen YOU have to be the one to make it happen. Not Rich. Not any of us. YOU. el minster.

So let me take you at your word seriously, it'll be a good education-slash-test-run for you if nothing else. A good protest usually involves showing a sample. If you're that serious about this, then show us the sample letter (letter is better than email) that you are going to send to WotC as part of this protest and you want us to send in a similar fashion. If you haven't written it yet, that's fine, we'll wait. This is your campaign, so it's on you to do the organisation; first rule is, if you want something, be prepared to do the work yourself, or you don't really want it. If you can't convince me, or any of us, after all, who don't have a monetary stake in this, you're never going to convince a major corperation (i.e Hasbro).

(I'll help by suggesting the word "demand" should not be anywhere in your initial proposal.)

[Peelee]

But what if we got The Giant on board didn't he used to work for WotC?

Why would he want to?

[Bartmanhomer]

Why?

Because we love D&D 3rd Edition. That's why.

[LibraryOgre]

Maybe he knows people who could print just one or two more books

I mean, and the OGL still exists. If I decided I wanted to publish more 3.5 books, I can still do those under the OGL. I could use Drivethru RPG.

Nothing prevents you from doing it, so long as you follow the OGL.

[Crake]

Maybe he knows people who could print just one or two more books

What content would you want in these new books? Why can't you just homebrew the content you desire?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with homebrewing content however you like, just take the things you want and make it work for you, you don't need some official books telling you what is and isn't playable in your games.

Of course, that only works if a) you're the DM, or b) you're actually good friends with the DM and not just playing in some pick-up group, in which case I would suggest you either start DMing, or find a consistent group of like-minded friends to play with.

[Peelee]

Because we love D&D 3rd Edition. That's why.

... And? I love tacos, that doesn't give me a say in my favorite Mexican restaurant's business decisions. You claimed that you should have a say in WotC's decision to stop supporting older material. "Because I like it" is not a good reason. So I ask again. Why?

[Bartmanhomer]

... And? I love tacos, that doesn't give me a say in my favorite Mexican restaurant's business decisions. You claimed that you should have a say in WotC's decision to stop supporting older material. "Because I like it" is not a good reason. So I ask again. Why?

Actually it's a very good reason. If people has a passion on something they will fight for it.