Sermil and the Banter of Randomness: Random Banter #228

[Cazero]

Imperial and US Customary Units are great for engineering, is the thing.

Meh. Conversion error from centimeter to millimeter is a decimal point. Conversion error from inches to [do you even have a smaller unit] involves fractions.

[Peelee]

[citation needed]

Sure, just pick up a grade school math textbook and look in the section that explains division. 10 is divisible by 1, 2, 5 10. 12 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 12. You do much woodworking? Fractions are going to be simpler. There's a reason I specified "in engineering".

And ya know, it's a funny thing. For every person that pushes back against "it's useful in specific circumstances", I see approximately zero people (rounded) that decide to argue for metric in timekeeping, which I must note is also not metric. It's not en vogue to argue that one as opposed to US Customary Units, though.

[Fyraltari]

Sure, just pick up a grade school math textbook and look in the section that explains division. 10 is divisible by 1, 2, 5 10. 12 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 12. You do much woodworking? Fractions are going to be simpler. There's a reason I specified "in engineering".

But the USC aren’t in base 12. They are not in any base at all that’s the issue* (12 inches make a foot, 3 feet make a yard, 1760 yards make a mile).

And ya know, it's a funny thing. For every person that pushes back against "it's useful in specific circumstances", I see approximately zero people (rounded) that decide to argue for metric in timekeeping, which I must note is also not metric. It's not en vogue to argue that one as opposed to US Customary Units, though.

You do know that the second is a SI unit, right?

*that and there seems to be no relation between units of volume and‘ length which is baffling.

[Mith]

Sure, just pick up a grade school math textbook and look in the section that explains division. 10 is divisible by 1, 2, 5 10. 12 is divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 12. You do much woodworking? Fractions are going to be simpler. There's a reason I specified "in engineering".

And ya know, it's a funny thing. For every person that pushes back against "it's useful in specific circumstances", I see approximately zero people (rounded) that decide to argue for metric in timekeeping, which I must note is also not metric. It's not en vogue to argue that one as opposed to US Customary Units, though.

If US Customary Units were entirely base 12, I feel like the argument would hold better. Going from an inch to a foot to a mile is not the same "magnitude conversion as a mm, cm, m, km conversion.

The value of SI is that all the units are inter related and defined based on universal prototypes (I believe the Kilogram was the last prototype to be surpassed).

Now the _ideal_ for me is if SI was in base 12 as well as introducing a base 12 number system. That way, we have the benefit of clean fractions and dozenal (as opposed to decimal) notation.

[Cazero]

Also, you can still use the number 12 in base 10.

[Peelee]

If US Customary Units were entirely base 12, I feel like the argument would hold better. Going from an inch to a foot to a mile is not the same "magnitude conversion as a mm, cm, m, km conversion.

And if all engineering was done in all US Customary Units that would be a better point.

I'll cop to being a bit open-ended with "engineering," though. Woodworking, plumbing, the trades. It is a system that does have value in specific areas, just like how a system that has units in 60, 60, 24, 30 or 31 depending (and also 28 and sometimes 29), 12, and 365 has value in a specific area despite not being the same magnitude conversion as a mm, cm, m, km conversion.

[Fyraltari]

About the measure of time, I was going to say that the minute/hour/day system was used everywhere but O don’t actually know wether that’s true and a quick internet search found me nothing, so consider this an open question to the forum: are there places where the day isn’t divided into 24 hours of sixty minutes made of sixty seconds ?

Anyway since human relate to time with the passing of days and the passing of years and there are 365. 256363051 days in a year, we can’t come up with time system using a base that would be useful in day-to-day life.

[SZbNAhL]

Forget metric vs. Imperial, the real issue is that the US refuses to use Imperial properly. For example, a quart is 1.1365225 litres but 0.946352946 liters.

[Peelee]

Anyway since human relate to time with the passing of days and the passing of years and there are 365. 256363051 days in a year, we can’t come up with time system using a base that would be useful in day-to-day life.

Yes, it's almost as if I'm explicitly arguing that a system has value because of its real-world use.

Forget metric vs. Imperial, the real issue is that the US refuses to use Imperial properly. For example, a quart is 1.1365225 litres but 0.946352946 liters.

And you British people refuse to speak French properly. Almost as if you're speaking a language that is not French.

[Rater202]

...Are we really arguing Imperiaal vs Metric vs US?

That never ends well.

...I swear, when I take over the world and assimilate everything into a techno-organic collective consciousness we'll measure everything in CalvinBal units, which alternate between Base Potato ns Base Tater depending on what day it is in a Callender of 12 thirty day weeks and days that consist of 24 months. composes of sixty years each all adding up to a farthing. (seconds and minutes are abolished.)

[SZbNAhL]

And you British people refuse to speak French properly. Almost as if you're speaking a language that is not French.

The difference is that English does not sound exactly like French but with the words holding different meanings. US customary is equivalent to people going around saying "je suis un chien bleu" and then insisting it means "the weather in Malta is lovely".

[Peelee]

The difference is that English does not sound exactly like French but with the words holding different meanings. US customary is equivalent to people going around saying "je suis un chien bleu" and then insisting it means "the weather in Malta is lovely".

Imean, if you really want, I can get into the better specifics, like how whenever I see my cousin from Tyrol put up something on social media and I toss it into Google Translate I get maybe 40% of it back in English, but that's not nearly as pithy.

Oh, and I even spelled it without the "I" as a gesture of goodwill to your English sensibilities.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, it's almost as if I'm explicitly arguing that a system has value because of its real-world use.

Pretty sure that the utility gained by using a different system for the very specific tasks it is better at (which I am not convinced is true but willing to let slide for the sake of argument) is overshadowed by the utility lost when that system has to interact with the general system.

Another point, it’s not called « the metric system » it’s the « international system of units » because the point of it is too smooth communication, trade and exchange all over the globe by having everybody measure things in the same units. If every nation used its own units commerce and science would be a horrible mess.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, no, that's not an issue.
I mean, it is an issue, but not an obstacle. You can attest for yourself that we already give charge to incompetent hacks who don't care about doing stupid mistakes like ignoring safeties or using the wrong unit, even if it kills people.

And it'd be compounding that problem by adding another layer of potential failure on top of that, not replacing it.

[Peelee]

Another point, it’s not called « the metric system » it’s the « international system of units » because the point of it is too smooth communication, trade and exchange all over the globe by having everybody measure things in the same units. If every nation used its own units commerce and science would be a horrible mess.

A metric system is a system of measurement that succeeded the decimalised system based on the metre introduced in France in the 1790s. The historical development of these systems culminated in the definition of the International System of Units (SI), under the oversight of an international standards body.

Oh hey would ya look at that, SI is explicitly based on something called "the metric system." Who'da thunk it?

Imean, aside from the French.

[Fyraltari]

Oh hey would ya look at that, SI is explicitly based on something called "the metric system." Who'da thunk it?

Imean, aside from the French.

And USC is based on Imperial Units. What’s your point ?

[Anonymouswizard]

Imperial and US Customary Units are great for engineering, is the thing.

And yet I've never met an engineer who likes them, mainly due to problems converting between units in the system. There's also a few unfortunate associations with having a stated preference for Imperial over here.

Forget metric vs. Imperial, the real issue is that the US refuses to use Imperial properly. For example, a quart is 1.1365225 litres but 0.946352946 liters.

Don't forget their horrible spelling, can't even get centre right.

Or the micron, a unit that exists solely so Americans don't get confused between a thingy that I forget the name for and a micrometre

[Peelee]

And USC is based on Imperial Units. What’s your point ?

That'd be an excellent argument if I claimed something like "it's not called 'imperial units', it's called 'USC.'"

[Anonymouswizard]

That'd be an excellent argument if I claimed something like "it's not called 'imperial units', it's called 'USC.'"

But SI is not identical to the old French metric system, just like how USC are not identical to Imperial units. It is, I believe, much closer, but it's still not identical

[Jasdoif]

Pretty sure that the utility gained by using a different system for the very specific tasks it is better at (which I am not convinced is true but willing to let slide for the sake of argument) is overshadowed by the utility lost when that system has to interact with the general system.

If that was necessarily true, hardware abstraction layers wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are.

[Peelee]

But SI is not identical to the old French metric system, just like how USC are not identical to Imperial units. It is, I believe, much closer, but it's still not identical

Jeez, you guys and your "the point you are making should be clearly understandable but you are sacrificing pinpoint accuracy for pithiness and I won't have it!"-ness.

Yes, I'll cop to that. But when I say "the metric system" everyone knows exactly what to equate it to and that equation will be correct. There's no functional difference.

[Fyraltari]

Forget metric vs. Imperial, the real issue is that the US refuses to use Imperial properly. For example, a quart is 1.1365225 litres but 0.946352946 liters.

A quart is 0, 25 L

That'd be an excellent argument if I claimed something like "it's not called 'imperial units', it's called 'USC.'"

I still don’t see your point, they changed the name to better advertise its purpose, what’s the issue?

If that was necessarily true, hardware abstraction layers wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are.

That’s because computers don’t think like humans and humans are bad at thinking like computers.

[Cazero]

That’s because computers don’t think like humans and humans are bad at thinking like computers.

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[Jasdoif]

Pretty sure that the utility gained by using a different system for the very specific tasks it is better at (which I am not convinced is true but willing to let slide for the sake of argument) is overshadowed by the utility lost when that system has to interact with the general system.

If that was necessarily true, hardware abstraction layers wouldn't be nearly as popular as they are.

That’s because computers don’t think like humans and humans are bad at thinking like computers.

No; it's because specialized systems are better at what they're specialized for, and a top-level system tying specialized systems together is more efficient than a general system trying to do all those tasks itself. It's as true with hardware abstraction layers, as it is with division of labor, as it with organs in a body, as it is with organelles in a cell.

Conversely, using a specialized system adjacent to what it's specialized for may or may not be inefficient...which is where the weak engineering argument Peelee has made comes in. I mean, there are three teaspoons in a tablespoon, and measures of volume from tablespoon all the way up to gallon increase by a power of two; so a cup can also be evenly divided by 2, 3, or 4....Yet "there are sixteen teaspoons in a third of a cup" being true doesn't really seem like a feature, so much as happenstance; even before considering that the situation is better handled by a one-third-cup measuring cup regardless. So the "twelve inches in a foot is convenient because it can be cleanly divided by 2/3/4" thing doesn't feel particularly convincing.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm American, the imperial units are pretty awful IMO. I have to stop and think about how long a mile is in feet, how big an acre is, how many quarts in a galleon, etc.

How big is a table spoon? Why is a cup so small compared to glass sizes? Why do we have quarts and pints?

My brain goes: cup, gallon, inches, feet, estimate of a mile. I would prefer an easier system by far.

[BisectedBrioche]

Americans can American their measurements as much as they like...but I can't abide by measuring dry ingredients by volume (at least when they're more than a tablespoon).

Put them in oz. if you must, but what on Earth is a cup of flour!?

[Peelee]

Americans can American their measurements as much as they like...but I can't abide by measuring dry ingredients by volume (at least when they're more than a tablespoon).

Put them in oz. if you must, but what on Earth is a cup of flour!?

About 236 cubic centimeters.

[Jasdoif]

Americans can American their measurements as much as they like...but I can't abide by measuring dry ingredients by volume (at least when they're more than a tablespoon).

Put them in oz. if you must, but what on Earth is a cup of flour!?

Meanwhile, in the converse situation I'd be like "Flour is supposed to warrant getting out a scale now?"

[Wizard_Lizard]

Just gonna add, what was that one mars thing robot that blew up coz of converting imperial to metric? I heard it somewhere I think. Currently really tired and can't be bothered doing research though. I submit that to the court as a reason for why having two conflicting units of measurement is difficult, and since the majority of the world use metric, surely it is better for america to just assimilate with us like a good colony.

[Peelee]

Just gonna add, what was that one mars thing robot that blew up coz of converting imperial to metric? I heard it somewhere I think. Currently really tired and can't be bothered doing research though. I submit that to the court as a reason for why having two conflicting units of measurement is difficult, and since the majority of the world use metric, surely it is better for america to just assimilate with us like a good colony.

It didn't get destroyed because some people worked in US Customary and some in metric. It got destroyed because that information was not conveyed. It was a communication issue more than anything. While I normally am all about changing the US over to metric, and it wouldn't have happened to start with if they had all used metric, communication is still important and it wasn't happening there, so I would prefer things like that get exposed in non-manned, non-essential missions than potentially more important or manned missions.