Jim Butcher's Peace Talks: Dresden Files Book 16 [Contains Spoilers]

[ereinion]

My thoughts on the book is that it definitely is half of a whole, and what annoyed me more is that it's really obvious about it? I noticed at times where it seemed like something was edited out because there was going to be a second book followup quickly.

I have to agree with this. In addition I never really got into Peace Talks, because there never seemed to be any stakes. Sure the book tells us the world is about to end, Harry is gonna be kicked of the council, Thomas is in such big trouble, etc., but since no one in the book seems to dwell on any of this, and the book just jumps from plot point to plot point I'm not getting invested either. Then, when the book finally seems to get a little bit of focus at the end... it ends.

In my eyes this is the weakest Dresden File so far, and I really hope Battle Grounds restores some of my faith in the series...

[Keltest]

Spoiler: Something surprising

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On an unrelated note, i was really surprised that the Winter Knight mantle let Harry assist Lara in, well, basically making somebody a fugitive from Accorded justice. They made a big deal about how from a legal perspective, Thomas was screwed, and the last time Harry tried to act as Harry the Wizard because Harry the Knight was inconvenient, it turned off.

[Dragonus45]

Spoiler: Something surprising

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On an unrelated note, i was really surprised that the Winter Knight mantle let Harry assist Lara in, well, basically making somebody a fugitive from Accorded justice. They made a big deal about how from a legal perspective, Thomas was screwed, and the last time Harry tried to act as Harry the Wizard because Harry the Knight was inconvenient, it turned off.

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The Fey Stuff always seems to have some wiggle room involving not actually getting caught in deception, and the Accords are probably step down from Winter Law when it comes to how the Mantle reacts to rulebreaking.

[GloatingSwine]

Spoiler: Something surprising

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On an unrelated note, i was really surprised that the Winter Knight mantle let Harry assist Lara in, well, basically making somebody a fugitive from Accorded justice. They made a big deal about how from a legal perspective, Thomas was screwed, and the last time Harry tried to act as Harry the Wizard because Harry the Knight was inconvenient, it turned off.

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It was being done in the context of Lara calling in a boon from Mab. So he was specifically acting as Mab's agent by doing it.
That kind of "technically within the letter of the rules" is kinda how the fae work.

[Eldan]

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Similar things have been argued before: he's carrying out a boon Mab has given, so it is Mab's will and not his fault, and he's technically acting as Lara's tool, so he's not breaking the accords, she is.

[Keltest]

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Ok, but theyre the Unseelie Accords. Unseelie = Winter = Mab. Invoking one of Mab's direct agents to break the Accords is, if anything, even worse than just doing so yourself. Dresden actually specifically calls out in one of the books that its not even worth considering agents of Winter as violators of the accords because Mab would take it very personally were they to do so.

[The Glyphstone]

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That's not Lara's problem, though. It sucks for Mab (and thus Harry) to be caught up in a loophole like that, but it's also part of why Mab turned a blind eye to the whole thing, because her only out is for Harry to be sneaky enough to not get caught. The Mantle wouldn't abandon Harry if he helped violate the Accords, because they're not a magical stricture in and of themselves. They're just a legal/diplomatic compact enforced by Mab's power and authority. If Harry had refused to help Lara on this, though, it would have been much worse for him because he was refusing to pay back a debt owed by Mab, and that is nuclear in fairyland.

[Keltest]

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That's not Lara's problem, though. It sucks for Mab (and thus Harry) to be caught up in a loophole like that, but it's also part of why Mab turned a blind eye to the whole thing, because her only out is for Harry to be sneaky enough to not get caught. The Mantle wouldn't abandon Harry if he helped violate the Accords, because they're not a magical stricture in and of themselves. They're just a legal/diplomatic compact enforced by Mab's power and authority. If Harry had refused to help Lara on this, though, it would have been much worse for him because he was refusing to pay back a debt owed by Mab, and that is nuclear in fairyland.

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Counterpoint: Harry specifically brings up being unable to violate the accords due to his dual-signatory status in Skin Game when Nicodemus reveals the plan to break into the vault of Marcone, also a signatory. In this case, Nicodemus gets around it by having dropped out of the Accords entirely, and Harry's actions while in his service reflecting only on Nicodemus, but Lara is still a member. Eldest Gruff also mentions, when Harry called in his boon, that it cannot be invoked to act directly against the interests of his court, which violating (and therefore weakening) the accords set up specifically by Winter should certainly qualify as.

[The Glyphstone]

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Counterpoint: Harry specifically brings up being unable to violate the accords due to his dual-signatory status in Skin Game when Nicodemus reveals the plan to break into the vault of Marcone, also a signatory. In this case, Nicodemus gets around it by having dropped out of the Accords entirely, and Harry's actions while in his service reflecting only on Nicodemus, but Lara is still a member. Eldest Gruff also mentions, when Harry called in his boon, that it cannot be invoked to act directly against the interests of his court, which violating (and therefore weakening) the accords set up specifically by Winter should certainly qualify as.

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Maybe it's just that last clause Mab is relying on, then - if no one finds out, the Accords don't take a hit. I dunno. Hopefully this gets resolved in Battlegrounds.

[Dragonus45]

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Ok, but theyre the Unseelie Accords. Unseelie = Winter = Mab. Invoking one of Mab's direct agents to break the Accords is, if anything, even worse than just doing so yourself. Dresden actually specifically calls out in one of the books that its not even worth considering agents of Winter as violators of the accords because Mab would take it very personally were they to do so.

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Yup, and when the consider that you could never even be a suspect for breaking the rules it makes manipulating them so much easier.

[dps]

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Maybe it's just that last clause Mab is relying on, then - if no one finds out, the Accords don't take a hit. I dunno. Hopefully this gets resolved in Battlegrounds.

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Yeah, actually, it's pretty well spelled out. Harry is in a tough place, because he has to do what Lara tells him to do when she calls in the favor, or Mab will punish him for not obeying orders (of course, he wants to help her free Thomas because, well, it's Thomas, but even if it had been someone else, even someone Harry didn't know at all or knew and actively disliked, he was required to help Lara). OTOH, he had to make sure that they didn't get caught, because it would be a violation of the Accords, and Mab would have to punish him for violating them.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

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I'm... not actually sure it's a violation of the Accords yet. The Accords say that Thomas has to be punished, but probably don't specify anything about where he's supposed to be held until that happens. And when you get down to it, all Harry's done is transferred Thomas from one prison to a different one. Should Harry then refuse to hand him over for punishment, he might find himself in serious trouble with his mantle, but until then I think he's in the clear.

[Artemis97]

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I'm... not actually sure it's a violation of the Accords yet. The Accords say that Thomas has to be punished, but probably don't specify anything about where he's supposed to be held until that happens. And when you get down to it, all Harry's done is transferred Thomas from one prison to a different one. Should Harry then refuse to hand him over for punishment, he might find himself in serious trouble with his mantle, but until then I think he's in the clear.

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That's what I was thinking. Harry hasn't freed Thomas so much as transferred him from being held by one group to another, specifically himself. Harry will have to make sure justice is served in some way. And after was happened to Austri, maybe he isn't entirely ok with letting Thomas off the hook completely? Of course there's going to be a whole conspiracy behind Thomas' actions, which might free him from further punishment than what he's already experiencing on Daemonreach.

In less spoilery discussions. Who's excited for the next book?! I'm going to grab it as a late birthday present for myself. Will probably down it just as quickly as the first one. Does anyone have any predictions?

[Eldan]

Something just occured to me...

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Anything to do with Thomas being a Venator? Last time a Venator job came up, he had to cheat his way around Harry too and couldn't tell anyone.

[GrayDeath]

That makes a lot of sense, especially given the true nature of their opposition!

Should have thought of it myself...

[Artemis97]

Something just occured to me...

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Anything to do with Thomas being a Venator? Last time a Venator job came up, he had to cheat his way around Harry too and couldn't tell anyone.

Spoiler: Wha?

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Remind me who the Venator are again? They're one of the secret societies, right? or am I thinking of something else? Venturi? That doesn't seem right... I dunno. I remember reading a short story where Thomas had to avoid Harry, but it was ages ago. I barely remember much of that. Which story was that in? Or is it in one of the comics? I've got them I just need to get around to reading them.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Spoiler: Wha?

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Remind me who the Venator are again? They're one of the secret societies, right? or am I thinking of something else? Venturi? That doesn't seem right... I dunno. I remember reading a short story where Thomas had to avoid Harry, but it was ages ago. I barely remember much of that. Which story was that in? Or is it in one of the comics? I've got them I just need to get around to reading them.

Spoiler: The Venator

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Basically, there are some gods/monsters that gain power from people knowing about them. The Venator are people/monsters dedicated to eradicating knowledge of them, thus stripping them of their power. This includes the White Court (or possibly just the Raiths), primarily because they see such powerful beings as competition.

Due to the nature of the threat, Venator agents can't tell anyone about what they're actually doing; that would defeat the whole point. Wizards in particular have to be kept in the dark, because their typical method for dealing with dark rituals and dangerous spells is to mass produce copies of them, creating too much demand on the power source for it to be at all useful any more. Naturally, spreading knowledge like that is something the Venators want to prevent at all costs, so when Thomas is working for them, Harry has to stay in the dark.

[Dragonus45]

Spoiler: The Venator

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Basically, there are some gods/monsters that gain power from people knowing about them. The Venator are people/monsters dedicated to eradicating knowledge of them, thus stripping them of their power. This includes the White Court (or possibly just the Raiths), primarily because they see such powerful beings as competition.

Due to the nature of the threat, Venator agents can't tell anyone about what they're actually doing; that would defeat the whole point. Wizards in particular have to be kept in the dark, because their typical method for dealing with dark rituals and dangerous spells is to mass produce copies of them, creating too much demand on the power source for it to be at all useful any more. Naturally, spreading knowledge like that is something the Venators want to prevent at all costs, so when Thomas is working for them, Harry has to stay in the dark.

Spoiler: Slight Correction

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Basically, there are some gods/monsters that gain power from people knowing about them.

Not just some, the implication of it all is that all of the things living in the nevernever have a really bad time if humanity forgets about them.

[dps]

Spoiler: The Venator

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The Venator are people/monsters dedicated to eradicating knowledge of them, thus stripping them of their power. This includes the White Court (or possibly just the Raiths), primarily because they see such powerful beings as competition.

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Almost certainly, it's not even all of the Raiths. There simply aren't that many members of the Venators. It has to be that way, because the more people in on it, the more it would defeat the purpose.

And, there are actually 2 different groups of Venators. We've been discussing the Venator; there's also the Venatori Umborum(sp?) which is a much more numerous group that's only semi-secret--they also fight monsters, but the smaller number of actual Venators among them, because they're not in on the secret effort to eliminate monsters by eliminating knowledge of the monsters.

[Caledonian]

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It's worth mentioning that the Archive (currently in her incarnation of Ivy) is the central organizing entity of the Oblivion organization, and technically their mission is the entire reason she exists and was originally created. She's in the best position to know if any mortal attempts to convey information about one of the target entities, and once knowledge of them is eliminated, she waits a few centuries, then deletes her own memories of them, removing the last foothold of the targets in the mortal realm. I don't know what happens if an immortal tries telling mortals about targets - possibly there are rules about that, possibly none of the hostile immortals know about Oblivion.

[Keltest]

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It's worth mentioning that the Archive (currently in her incarnation of Ivy) is the central organizing entity of the Oblivion organization, and technically their mission is the entire reason she exists and was originally created. She's in the best position to know if any mortal attempts to convey information about one of the target entities, and once knowledge of them is eliminated, she waits a few centuries, then deletes her own memories of them, removing the last foothold of the targets in the mortal realm. I don't know what happens if an immortal tries telling mortals about targets - possibly there are rules about that, possibly none of the hostile immortals know about Oblivion.

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I cant imagine that any immortals like, say, Mab would be terribly interested in giving rival powers a foothold into the mortal world. Even the genuinely evil, malicious ones are generally smarter than to trust that things like that will ignore them in the long run. They may also be under various oaths to not spill the beans when they do come into the information, just in case.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

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It's worth mentioning that the Archive (currently in her incarnation of Ivy) is the central organizing entity of the Oblivion organization, and technically their mission is the entire reason she exists and was originally created. She's in the best position to know if any mortal attempts to convey information about one of the target entities, and once knowledge of them is eliminated, she waits a few centuries, then deletes her own memories of them, removing the last foothold of the targets in the mortal realm. I don't know what happens if an immortal tries telling mortals about targets - possibly there are rules about that, possibly none of the hostile immortals know about Oblivion.

Spoiler: The Archive

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Huh.

I wonder if that's why she gave Harry the cold shoulder at the party. She didn't want to lie to him or keep him in the dark, so instead she just pretended not to notice him. After all, she's what, 15 now? Less? If I had a nickel for every time I put off something rather than dealing with it promptly as a teen, I could probably pay for a whole year of college.

[lowfyr]

Spoiler: The Archive

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Huh.

I wonder if that's why she gave Harry the cold shoulder at the party. She didn't want to lie to him or keep him in the dark, so instead she just pretended not to notice him. After all, she's what, 15 now? Less? If I had a nickel for every time I put off something rather than dealing with it promptly as a teen, I could probably pay for a whole year of college.

Could be. And I think she must be 16 or 17 now at least.

[Weimann]

So I finished the 16th book of the Dresden Files, Peace Talks, a few weeks ago.

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It was the first time I've listened to a Dresden Files book instead of reading it. I must say, the voice actor does a really good job.

This book very clearly knew what it set out to do: re-introduce people and set up the playing field. Yes, it had a central conflict in Thomas' situation, but that didn't even get resolved, just put on hold. Just like others have said, it's half a book. And, y'know, I can respect that. I *did* need a reminder of who was who, and since the next book is only months away, I see no great harm in splitting it up. Saves me the Wiki dive I thought I was going to have to do.

It's a warm up book for the plot, but it also, unfortunately, feels like a warm up book for Butcher. Harry is kind of... flat in this. I agree with others that he's played too straight for my liking. I hope some of the trade mark humour and sarcasm will return.

I'm reminded of my feelings towards Ghost Story, which is also a set-up book. Nice and needed after Changes, but still, ghost-Harry isn't a good Harry, because ghosts are distant and incorporeal. Getting involved is what Harry *does*. This book felt the same to me; the official responsibilities and the political power balance made Harry's hand tied. Understandable, justified, probably needed... but a little boring.

On the other hand, I'm also just a little peeved that a book called Peace Talks didn't actually have any peace talks in them. Like, I got a bit excited over actually seeing some of the sides in the situation argue their interests with each other. Oh well.

That rescue sequence with Lara... eh, I'm torn. Definitely gratuitous, but I will argue that it's pretty cool to see a proper succubus do their thing. I'm clearly already buying sex vampires, so why not bring them to their logical conclusion? And now it has been done, and we can move on.

And speaking of love, it was cool to see Harry and Murphy finally actually getting real official-like. I don't even remember if that had happened in the previous books, but I'm down with them. I saw someone saying that Murphy kissing harry and them saying they loved each other was a ill sign for Murphy's health, but I will not entertain such notions.

I did like the plot twist, though, particularly how it used the long-established idea that magic and tech don't go well together. Ethniu didn't even have to cast a spell, just channel magic, to knock out big parts of Chicago. That's a power statement that promises well for the upcoming book. It will be cool to see the different factions working together (or not, depending, I guess).

Spoiler: Theory

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Just speculation, but what if Thomas wasn't trying to say "Justine" when Harry picked him up from the Svartalves' prison? Maybe he as trying to say "Justin", as in Harry' old mentor? He is supposed to have died, but this is fantasy, y'know? Wizards can clearly get back from death. Eh, just a thought, no real evidence.

Overall, it's half a book, and it's the slow part. A return of the series, but more of a morsel than a meal. What makes it work really is the next one coming so soon.

[Artemis97]

Spoiler: Weimann's Theory

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OMG that's something I hadn't considered. I was thinking he wasn't saying Justine, but I didn't put the two together. Now I know the TV show is pretty non-canon, but I know it was alluding to Justin DuMorne returning as a major background villain. Would he be behind the Black Council? That's pretty juicy. I like it!

[The Glyphstone]

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Would Thomas even know what Justin looks like? From the little Harry has described of him, I don't imagine him as the sort of mustache-twirler who would identify himself by name while enacting an evil plan. So even if he is involved, how would Thomas know this?

[Keltest]

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IIRC, Harry and Elaine were both Starborn or whatever the term is, right? And DuMorne knew that and had plans for it. So maybe he isnt working for the Outsiders, but against them, just in ways that most of the more morally upright people would disapprove of. Harry's conflict between choosing what is right and what is effective is a major recurring theme after all.

[Rakaydos]

Spoiler: Starborn dates

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For a few hours every 666 years, people are born as starborn. Dresden is Starborn, and he's roughly gen-X, so born about 1970-ish.

The previous year a starborn could have been would have been about 1304-ish. Before that, the year 638, and before that, 28 BC.

Jesus of Nazareth wasnt Starborn. But perhaps his parents Mary and/or Josef were.

[dps]

Spoiler: Starborn dates

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For a few hours every 666 years, people are born as starborn. Dresden is Starborn, and he's roughly gen-X, so born about 1970-ish.

The previous year a starborn could have been would have been about 1304-ish. Before that, the year 638, and before that, 28 BC.

Jesus of Nazareth wasnt Starborn. But perhaps his parents Mary and/or Josef were.

I don't think Dresden is supposed to be 50 yet, so you might want to lop about 5 years off those dates.

[Eldan]

Spoiler: Starborn dates

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For a few hours every 666 years, people are born as starborn. Dresden is Starborn, and he's roughly gen-X, so born about 1970-ish.

The previous year a starborn could have been would have been about 1304-ish. Before that, the year 638, and before that, 28 BC.

Jesus of Nazareth wasnt Starborn. But perhaps his parents Mary and/or Josef were.

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John the Baptist? Not quite sure how old he is, but he could be Jesus' Merlin, so to speak.

638 is a bit early for King Arthur, but might fit Merlin.

What's 1304? Looking at Births 1300-1310 on Wikipedia there's no names on that list I recognize, except Petrarch, the Italian poet, in 1304.