OOTS #1207 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

I really thought that this confrontation wouldn't happen until MUCH later on. And I thought it'd be a NO REDCLOAK YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING! JOIN US! type affair mid-battle, rather than a straightforward sit down.

That's what I like about it; it is, to use the phrase that's been around about 2,300 years, "surprising, yet inevitable." It is surprising because we did not expect Durkon to go rogue on Roy; we realize it is inevitable, between Durkon's newfound assertiveness, commitment to his god (and his god's belief in his ability to convince Redcloak), and what else we know about his character.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: Theopolitics

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Miko, and that's not the point. Miko was eventually punished, but only for literally murdering her daimyo. (Suzerain? Lord? Boss?)
Point 1: Even divinely-ordained servants of the gods can go against their desires. Exactly what I said, exactly what that means. Priests won't always do what their gods tell them to; they might even stick to what their gods used to tell them, if it changes "out of nowhere".
Point 2: Unless you're going to argue that everything Miko did before that was according to the Gods' will, Miko did plenty of other stuff that wasn't punished.

We never saw Miko kill anyone she was not supposed to (innocent non-monsters, basically). She was trying to kill Redcloak, the Monster, Belkar, she killed a bunch of ogres… That kind of thing. If she were to go out on the streets and start randomly murdering innocents would have almost certainly yielded the same result.

I strongly disagree with the idea that some clerics being able to resurrect people makes all clerics more likely to be listened to, and in fact question whether it makes people more likely to listen to those clerics when resurrection magic is such an inherent part of the setting.

Eh, Resurrection's just an example here, big as it is, stop obsessing over it. If I remember correctly, the Giant said Soon died of old age at around 69, establishing that we should view this as something perfectly natural, given the hygiene standards of the setting. Clerics are the only thing standing between the denizens of the Stickverse and an untimely death caused by festering wounds, poor dental hygiene, poison, venom or what you will. And if soomeone dies anyway that's not a problem, either because hey, clerics. In 669 it's Roy of all people who opines that the lack of these options would alter the entire mindset of much everyone in the whole wide world.

As you can see, I kinda...forgot to finish that sentence—the period wasn't supposed to go there. I don't remember what I intended to write before getting distracted by some other point (so much for methodical)

That happens. It's not a big deal.

And yes it's not a permanent fix, but it has worked well for an exceptional length of time, well enough that the gods didn't consider remaking the world until a couple groups of idiots started burning them down or blowing them up. With the direct backing of a network of elementals or whatever capable of granting divine spells, the gates could presumably function even better.
And who knows what ur-priests could do?

Ur-priests might not even be a thing in the setting.
As for the rest, it could not function indefinitely. Anyhow, I had the impression (if „I can't tell if this is more akin to monopolistic business practices or outright organized crime. Either way, probably accurate” is anything to go by) that we kinda agree it's really a moot point.

This is two arguments. One is the assertion that Thor didn't really try to convince them, which is an unconvincing argument which relies on the assumption that he could have if he tried. The other is the argument that trees are, in fact, a threat to dwarves like they believe, which is patently ridiculous, because they are trees. They're a nuisance, and can occasionally destabilize near-surface tunnels if left unchecked for too long, but they're just trees!

Three, really. Also, the second one might be the key here. Putting aside the fact that that your position here (which boils down to „Thor couldn't convince them if he tried”) is as much an assumption as is my position – you are basically just equating didn't with couldn't –, Thor did not issue a decree, didn't threaten them with anything if they ignore his kindly little explanation and generally did not use any and all means necessary to change the outlook of his followers. Which is justified, since there was little if anything at stake. The dwarves tend to live mostly under ground level. If they „smite a tree”, the tree probably grew into their tunnels – which is a problem – or they are probably out on the surface to gather resources, say, wood, anyway. I don't have the impression that they go on regular crusades against the forests of the Elven Third in the West or anything. Thye don't do much harm by believing what they believe.
The thing with goblins is different. There's more to win and much more to lose.

A whole bunch of assertions bundled up in here. Let's start by pointing out that trees in Valhalla are much more plausible as "rebels" than goblins in the same places goblins always are. Let's continue by pointing out that the PC races do not, in fact, leave "monstrous" races alone when they aren't actively raiding; Origin shows Roy and Durkon in a group of adventurers who are gung-ho to slaughter a tribe of orcs camping out early for good concert tickets.

And finally...the biggest reason why Thor's lie was able to work is that the trees couldn't contradict it. Thor could make up any story he liked and they wouldn't accidentally blow it apart by saying or doing the wrong thing. Goblins...not so much.

No one really has to lie about the goblins. The lie people believe is Peregrine Commander's bovine excrement with „a good goblin is a dead goblin”. And the goblins can actually prove that wrong: we know for certain that not every last one of them is evil.
Also, the reason why „monsters” are not let be is that everyone is fairly convinced they can just slaughter them with impunity because they are inherently evil and the gods don't mind. The first assumption is wrong, while the second one being right is perhaps one of the chief reasons why mostly everyone buys into it anyway.

Worst argument ever.
Blackwing started off as a joke. So did explosive runes. And Roy's bag of tricks. And the ylang-ylang moisturizer that Belkar used to track Haley. And that's just the stuff direct enough for TV Tropes to qualify it as a Chekov's Something; there are plenty of other examples, including the core character traits of the entire Order. And lest we forget, the first time Thor was even mentioned was a joke!
Just because something is a joke doesn't mean it doesn't say something about the world of the story. If the story is well-written, at least.

I've seen worse.
Anyhow, some of the jokes become important and some don't. I can cough up a long list of last panel stuff (the whole thing with the trees grows out of such a joke, incidentally) that has little bearing on the plot if you insist. After all, even Belkar says that „[y]ou can't take anything [he] say[s] in the last panel seriously”.

Spoiler: Gobbopolitics

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And the British Empire wouldn't have focused so much on its colonies if it had been trading with Spain. That doesn't mean the colonies weren't profitable in and of themselves. The fact that Gobbotopia is an effective front against the elves speaks to their economic significance.

Azure City was an ally and business partner of the elves. Gobbotopia isn't, which is good for Cliffport. That's all the „economic significance” we know they have.

Never tried to imply you did. I was just pointing out that the explanation you gave for Cliffport didn't explain the other sixteen, so there must be another reason.
I personally find the "They're scared of one guy who hasn't done anything visible since the siege" explanation...very weak. If Xykon (or Redcloak and his acolytes) went around terrorizing nations which didn't accept Gobbotopia, well that would be obvious, but as-is...there's no motivation to recognize them based on Xykon alone. Maybe he'll attack if you don't recognize Gobbotopia, or maybe you'll be attacked by his enemies, or maybe he'll attack you anyways because you sent him good coffee.

That one guy didn't do much they witnessed before the siege, either. The invasion came out of the blue, so to say.
At any rate, I have difficulty believing that they recognized them because they liked them so much.

1. You don't understand the question. Of course it helps, but why does it help more if the things people believe happen to be true?
2. Your argument is...kinda weak. Especially since I could point to examples of the powers advanced technology brings making people less trustworthy of their leaders, if discussing politics weren't forbidden. (Think of a dozen things that people call Orwellian, and at least one or two should be a decent example. Though most of them will be statements made by people who clearly never read 1984.)

There's nothing miraculous about modern technology. Also, it can do a lot less than divine magic, it is a little more difficult to take away from the people at will, and those in research and development cannot blow up the world and flee to the Astral Plane to make another later if they don't like what's happening. Meaning no offense, I think your analogy is weaker than my argument, by simple virtue of not really working.

Good catch!
If you'll allow me to draw a sketch of what I think likely borders would be:

Spoiler: Sketch

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Obviously, this is less secure than I initially imagined, but it's hardly defenseless. I wouldn't call it a "narrow strip" (though I guess it could be if the goblins didn't bother to control the main roads and instead traveled along obscure mountain trails), and most of the land is mountainous.

Still not sure why Hinjo didn't just dock in Robinsegg though.

I never said it's completely defenseless, I said it's hard to defend due to the inconvenient shape. As for Robinsegg… Heck knows. Perhaps the Giant just forgot about it.
(At any rate, could you resend the sketch? It did not come through, and that made me sad. I like maps.)

I'd like to start by pointing out that your assumption on the size of a legion doesn't seem to be justified anywhere that I can find. Also, the hobgoblin said "the rest of your 87 legions," not "the other 87 legions"—my your assumptions, he would only have ~26,100 soldiers.

Sue me. NOt that subtracting 900 souls from my final count changes much anything; I was rounding the estimated minimum down anyway.

I'd like to continue by admitting that I tried to count the number of visible buildings. I lost track around one hundred, about halfway through. That's not many places to put over 50,000 people in—and if most family homes are just too small to be visible in that image, the larger buildings would make Harren the Black feel inadequate. The hobgoblin settlement is clearly fortified, but the very image you cited shows that it can't be a metropolis. The idea that only settlements of a certain size could be so fortified is ridiculous, especially when you remember that [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castra]the original legions were well-known for setting up fortified settlements, often for forces of less than 500 men.

As Jacky 720, Kornaki and Quizatzhaderac pointed out, those are not really good points. We know the size of one of the legions, which should mean the others are of similar size (the hobgoblins are quite disciplined, you know). Also, my numbers are consistent with the canonical size of the army (which is shown on numerous occasions to consist in its vast majority of hobgoblins rather than the undead), much unlike your assumptions.
As for the hobgoblin settlement, allow me to emphasize again that the canonical map calls it a city; in the Gobbotopia speech Redcloak says it has women and children (doesn't sound like a military camp, does it?); judging by the size of the shortest buildings many of the larger ones should have 5-6 floors at the very least, we don't know what the other side of the hill with the keep on top of it looks like, there might be tunnels and underground floors, as well as residential areas we don't see behind the hill or obscured by the bottom of the panel. Xykon and Redcloak imply on the same page that it's fairly large (you surely don't want to suggest that Xykon's comment is supposed to be read as „oh, a tiny, dusty village with funny walls and less than 500 men, I'm having an evilgasm”).
Also, Azure City is canonically described as a metropolis, but what we see of it doesn't seem large enough to hold 100000+ inhabitants, either (please refer to General Chang's model of the city walls (where we see how wide the city walls are as compared to the castle) as well as 484 (for the distance between the walls and the sea)), and you're not calling it a village or a camp (obviously).

Is that really a spoiler?
Anyways, you're making assertions. On one hand, that the nations which refused to help Hinjo would be able and willing to form an effective coalition against Gobbotopia; on the other, that Gobbotopia (which currently shows no interest in expanding, and has entrenched itself in multiple fortified settlements) is the same kind of threat as TDO (who was an active warlord and didn't seem to have fortresses under his control).

No, it is not. BUt it is from SoD and the rules say we are supposed to use spoiler tags for stuff like that. I'm doing my best to play it safe, you know. The second day after I registered I got a warning for doing two admittedly really stupid things which I thought were harmless (because I did not read the rules of posting carefully enough; I know better now).
More to the point: it's hard to see why Southern nations wouldn't be worried about a goblinoid community which just wiped out, for all intents and purposes, one of the most powerful human states of the broader region. Also, the hypothesis that these Southern nations can form coalitions is no doubt a hypothesis rather than a fact, but so is your assumption. Not to mention such assumptions as „recognition means lack of hostile intent”.

So would a tsunami. There's no evidence suggesting Azure City is in any danger of a tsunami, so it shouldn't be taken into consideration for strategic analysis.

Above, I've said I've seen worse arguments than what you called the worst argument ever. This is one of them.
It is an established fact that Soon's Rift is large, open, and directly above Gobbotopia City. It is an established fact that the Snarl can burst out of such Rifts (we've seen it explode into Laurin's face, after all, and that wasn't a may-or-may-not-be-entirely-accurate flashback). There is ample evidence suggesting that the city is in danger, and the fact that they were lucky thus far does not disprove that evidence at all. Face it: Gobbotopia City is currently one of the four most dangerous places of the Stickworld, and the most densely populated one of the four as far as we know.
Saying that in its current form Gobbotopia is safe and fine is little better than stating (as many did before) that goblinoids should just relocate themselves into the Riftworld (which is a really, really bad idea).

[LadyEowyn]

In literary terms, the giant rift hanging over Gobbotopia is a Chekhov’s gun. The other rifts are in the middle of nowhere - the most obvious reason for showing, at the end of BRITF, that the Windy Canyon rift is an active threat is in order to establish that the rift over Gobbotopia is a threat.

So I would expect something to happen with it, and probably something that forces Redcloak to confront the conflict between the Plan and Gobbotopia’s well-being.

[Metastachydium]

In literary terms, the giant rift hanging over Gobbotopia is a Chekhov’s gun. The other rifts are in the middle of nowhere - the most obvious reason for showing, at the end of BRITF, that the Windy Canyon rift is an active threat is in order to establish that the rift over Gobbotopia is a threat.

So I would expect something to happen with it, and probably something that forces Redcloak to confront the conflict between the Plan and Gobbotopia’s well-being.

Could be.
That being said, I sure hope it is mostly just to remind us (and, especially, those in-universe) that Gobbotopia as it is right now exists on something of a really, really thin ice, and that gun will not actually be fired.

[hroþila]

In literary terms, the giant rift hanging over Gobbotopia is a Chekhov’s gun. The other rifts are in the middle of nowhere - the most obvious reason for showing, at the end of BRITF, that the Windy Canyon rift is an active threat is in order to establish that the rift over Gobbotopia is a threat.

So I would expect something to happen with it, and probably something that forces Redcloak to confront the conflict between the Plan and Gobbotopia’s well-being.

I disagree. Gobbotopia's rift is pretty high and unreachable except from a section of the walls that can easily be cordoned off. No one is going to be poking into it like Laurin did with Girard's rift (or like Soon's wife did at Lirian's rift, or the priest of the Dark One did with some other rift). I think Gobbotopia is relatively safe as long as the final gate holds.

I'd say the obvious reason for showing that Girard's rift was active at the end of BRITF was to dispel the theory that the Snarl wasn't real.

[Metastachydium]

I disagree. Gobbotopia's rift is pretty high and unreachable except from a section of the walls that can easily be cordoned off. No one is going to be poking into it like Laurin did with Girard's rift (or like Soon's wife did at Lirian's rift, or the priest of the Dark One did with some other rift). I think Gobbotopia is relatively safe as long as the final gate holds.

I'd say the obvious reason for showing that Girard's rift was active at the end of BRITF was to dispel the theory that the Snarl wasn't real.

I don't think the Snarl's quite as predictable as you would make it seem. Its, uh, motives (if it has any to speak of) are poorly understood in- and out of universe. We saw it leave the Order and Tarquin's soldiers alone in the desert; we saw it failing to react to Blackwing, Xykon and the Azurite slaves atop the tower at Soon's Rift. It did, however, kill bears and the like around Lirian's Rift, although that one was far from huge at that point. We also know it is (or at any rate, it can get) large enough to devour a whole world whenever the circumstances allow that, and yet, it can apparently disappear at times leaving people to inspect the Riftworld at their leisure.
Even if your theory is correct, and something definitely has to tamper with a Rift to provoke an attack, any non-sapient winged creature flying by can trigger a potentially catastrophic outburst, and we don't have solid evidence that the city's goblinoid rulers take measures to keep much anything (citizens included) away from it.

[Squire Doodad]

Perhaps the Snarl reacts to attempts to assess or interact with it magically, but not the presence of the rift in the first place? The bears might have gone missing from entering the rift (where the Snarl could see them and kill them), while people like Mijung and Laurin were attempting to scan. Furthermore, that explains why it was attacking during its sealing, because it was aware that something was trying to bind that section of its vision.

[Metastachydium]

Perhaps the Snarl reacts to attempts to assess or interact with it magically, but not the presence of the rift in the first place? The bears might have gone missing from entering the rift (where the Snarl could see them and kill them), while people like Mijung and Laurin were attempting to scan. Furthermore, that explains why it was attacking during its sealing, because it was aware that something was trying to bind that section of its vision.

Doubt that. (As per Redcloak: ”all of the accounts (…) from before the five Gates were ever built [this bit and the theory Redcloak builds around it would seem to be irrelevant and wrong, respectively, if Kraagor's death and the incident with Laurin is anything to go by] describe the Snarl reaching out and consuming those nearby” (not to mention that while I'm no ethologist, to me just waltzing straight into that thing doesn't really sound like something a bear would actually do). Also, we don't see Mijung use any kind of magic on the Rift, and yet the Snarl attacked her.

Spoiler: Not really a spoiler from SoD

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If I remember correctly, a similar fate befell the first goblin cleric to find the Rift. He wasn't doing anything remotely magical when attacked: he wasabout to throw a chicken into it, or something to that effect.

)

[Anitar]

Spoiler: Not really a spoiler from SoD

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If I remember correctly, a similar fate befell the first goblin cleric to find the Rift. He wasn't doing anything remotely magical when attacked: he wasabout to throw a chicken into it, or something to that effect.

)

Okay, so I just checked, and...

Spoiler: Might actually be a spoiler from SoD

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"It appeared to be a hole in the sky itself, through which he could see a jumbled mix of blue and purple strands. He tried several divination spells on it before he tried sending a live chicken through the hole."
Next panel: His top half is through the rift.

For that matter, the Mijung scene basically goes like...

Soon: "Please keep your magic away from the hole."
Mijung: "No."
*Mijung gets ganked by the Snarl*

So you're technically right inasfar as we haven't seen those two attempt to magick the Rifts in any way, but it's implied in both cases. If anything, it makes the "Snarl proactively lashes out if and only if you get magicky in its general direction" theory seem more likely.

[Metastachydium]

Okay, so I just checked, and...

Spoiler: Might actually be a spoiler from SoD

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"It appeared to be a hole in the sky itself, through which he could see a jumbled mix of blue and purple strands. He tried several divination spells on it before he tried sending a live chicken through the hole."
Next panel: His top half is through the rift.

I KNEW that there were chicken involved! (And, by the way, thanks for the clarification.)

For that matter, the Mijung scene basically goes like...

Soon: "Please keep your magic away from the hole."
Mijung: "No."
*Mijung gets ganked by the Snarl*

That's one possible interpretation of the scene. However, Soon's whole ”let's enjoy the scenery before duty calls &c.&c.” sounds more like ”please keep that magic hole and your academic curiosity from ruining our picnic here” to me.

So you're technically right inasfar as we haven't seen those two attempt to magick the Rifts in any way, but it's implied in both cases. If anything, it makes the "Snarl proactively lashes out if and only if you get magicky in its general direction" theory seem more likely.

And you people are technically right that ”magic baits the Snarl” is not an unreasonable assumption, but between the ambiguity of the Mijung-scene, the whole thing with the bears and Redcloak's comment about those multiple accounts, questioning the validity of this theory seems to be a reasonable position as well.

[Squire Doodad]

And you people are technically right that ”magic baits the Snarl” is not an unreasonable assumption, but between the ambiguity of the Mijung-scene, the whole thing with the bears and Redcloak's comment about those multiple accounts, questioning the validity of this theory seems to be a reasonable position as well.

That's true, we can't say for certain that it's the correct theory. It could be triggered by things entering range relative to the planet inside it's surface (hence why Laurin triggered it but Blackwing didn't), or it could just be anything with X distance of the portal lets the Snarl roll for reality-undoing tentacles. Magic seems to clearly be involved, though there could easily be another aspect.

Incidentally I'd say that a bear could, in fact, go straight into the portal out of curiosity (maybe thinking it's a weird cave or something), but that's just me.

[danielxcutter]

I wouldn’t be surprised if using magic around it paints a target on your back, but it can still sense beings close to the Rifts even without that anyways.