Is Xykon's Fortress a Red Herring and what are it's defenses?

[Jacky720]

Why are we assuming Xykon is even going to be the final boss of the story? Chances are the current arc really is going to be the final one with Xykon and, if the pattern holds, there will be one final one afterwords that deals with the Snarl directly. It's kind of a waste to have a god-killing abomination and barely use it as anything other than a macguffin.

I think we've gotten direct word that Xykon will be the climactic fight, which probably implies the IFCC, world in the Rifts, and Snarl will just be handled before Xykon?

[Peelee]

Why are we assuming Xykon is even going to be the final boss of the story? Chances are the current arc really is going to be the final one with Xykon and, if the pattern holds, there will be one final one afterwords that deals with the Snarl directly. It's kind of a waste to have a god-killing abomination and barely use it as anything other than a macguffin.

Imean, it is nothing other than a macguffin (and also Xykon will likely be the final boss):

The MacGuffin is not the antagonist. The MacGuffin is the object sought by the antagonist. Narratively speaking, it does not matter what it does—only that the antagonist is willing to kill the protagonist to get it. That is the source of the conflict. It does not matter what is in the rift, it matters who is willing to kill whom to get it, even if they are mistaken about its usefulness. What is in the rift is only important insofar as it may, at some point, change who is willing to kill whom and why. And that IS important, because those details will change the shape of what happens, but not as the source of conflict. The Snarl is not the threat; Xykon is the threat. The Snarl's powers have as much relevance to the quest to get the Snarl as the exact properties of the glowing briefcase have on the plot of Pulp Fiction, or the exact dollar value of the statue in The Maltese Falcon.

ETA: I also like the description of the Snarl's role here:

The Snarl is like a nuclear bomb. You can get a lot of leverage out of owning a nuclear bomb, because no one wants it dropped on them. But if everyone knows you only own one and then you use it on someone...then everyone left knows you don't have it anymore. Sucks for your one target, but it won't end well for you, either.

Both quotes are only partial, and if you'd like to see everything he said you can click on the button by his name to get full context.

[Mic_128]

While hiding the fake phylactery, Xykon inspected it (probably with divination) and determined that it was fake. He then deduced what Redcloak had done. Since Xykon doesn't sleep, he sneaked in to Redcloak's room in the middle of the night and swapped the real phylactery that Redcloak had for the fake one. Xykon was able to disable or bypass any magical security Redcloak had in his room without waking him up.

Xykon is many things - stealthy and subtle however, he is not. He woould have beaten the crap out of Redclaok and then threatened the lives of the Goblins (or here, Bugbears) or just started killing em, until Redcloak handed over the phylactery.

[Kantaki]

Untold amount of time alone in his fortress... with television!

But there'll be nothing but reruns.
That'll get boring quick.
A few centuries in at best.
Long, long before the gods create new stuff for Xykon to murder.

[Psyren]

I think his doom fortress, like the lich himself, will ultimately prove to be wholly irrelevant - much like other epic evil spellcasters likely had grandiose plans in their own times that ended up coming to naught in the end (see also the Soul Splices). It'll be a curiosity for high-level adventurers in the future to plumb and nothing more, one that may not even have any treasure at the end.

Narratively its purpose has been fulfilled - it makes Xykon think he has a safety net far away from anything that might kill him, which will cause him to behave more recklessly than he might have if he thought his phylactery wasn't secure. That's really all it needs to be as far as the immediate plot goes, we never actually have to go there.

[DavidBV]

The plot as we know it has made the fortress redundant; two possibilities can make the fortress relevant again to the story:

-We are wrong about the plot. For instance, Xykon used some clever scheme to trick Redcloak and then played the fool. The philactery may, after all, be hidden in the fortress. Seems unlikely, but Rich is very crafty so I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

-It becomes relevant again through new plot developments. If I am not mistaken an hypothetical world destruction wouldn't affect the fortress so somehow it could become the scenario of a final clash/chase. Very hard to predict at this point.

Given we're at the final book, and we still haven't seen the inside of Kraagors' nor resolved the Godsmoot etc, it doesn't seem likely that either of the above will happen. A pity, but maybe we can one day see it in a spin-off book.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I'm not sure Xykon's astral "fortress-tomb-thingy" is significant enough to qualify as a red herring. It's introduced as literally just a super-safe place to stick his phylactery, and two comics after we find out that the phylactery he stuck there isn't the real one.


That said, I can't help but notice something unusual about the title. It asks both "Does Xykon's fortress matter?" and "What are the defenses of this possibly irrelevant thing?"

[HiddenTrack]

I feel like I can imagine a bizarre time heist scenario way way towards endgame when the grand phylactery switch has been revealed, the phylactery has been blown up, all hell has broken loose and everything is chaotic madness, and they're trying to piece reality back together. Then something like this exchange happens:

"We need to go back to that moment we destroyed the phylactery and swap it."

"But to do that we'd need something that was identical to the original phylactery in every single way! One that was created before any of this happened! ...oh. Oh no. "

...but that's pretty much the level of plot gymnastics I have to do to make that the fortress feel like a satisfactory callback.

Xykon just going "Yeah, I knew it was fake all along, and the real one is actually in the fortress, hurrah!" would feel like a bit of a copout.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I feel like I can imagine a bizarre time heist scenario way way towards endgame when the grand phylactery switch has been revealed, the phylactery has been blown up, all hell has broken loose and everything is chaotic madness, and they're trying to piece reality back together. Then something like this exchange happens:

"We need to go back to that moment we destroyed the phylactery and swap it."

"But to do that we'd need something that was identical to the original phylactery in every single way! One that was created before any of this happened! ...oh. Oh no. "

...but that's pretty much the level of plot gymnastics I have to do to make that the fortress feel like a satisfactory callback.

Xykon just going "Yeah, I knew it was fake all along, and the real one is actually in the fortress, hurrah!" would feel like a bit of a copout.

Please no time travel antics please no time travel antics please no time travel antics.
It happened in Endgame, it happened in star wars even... please no time travel antics.

[ijuinkun]

So some wild speculation: Xykon's fortress isn't protected from divine intervention.

Possibility one: Xykon becomes inconvenient for the dark one.

Possibility two: Thor does what Thor would do.

Given that it's on the Astral Plane, it would be free from many of the rules which restrain the Gods from acting directly on the Prime Material Plane, so either or both of them probably could go and attack it themselves if need be.

[brian 333]

Given that it's on the Astral Plane, it would be free from many of the rules which restrain the Gods from acting directly on the Prime Material Plane, so either or both of them probably could go and attack it themselves if need be.

At the risk of creating another Snarl, of course.

The gods have their rules and millions of worlds of experience that inform their actions, and direct action which may anger another deity is something they have learned not to do.

It may be that no other deity cares about Xykon, but if one does it's bad form to risk a breach of peace through direct action. It is much better to let some mortals deal with it according to the rules and completely eliminate any potential for clashing quiddities.

[ebarde]

Honestly I highly doubt Xykon wasn't any wiser after what Redcloak pulled, you can even see that in the conversation they had when leaving Azure City he basically just pretended to shrug it off but he seemed genuinely suspicious. Not sure to what extent he mistrusts Redcloak, but I certainly think he takes him more seriously as a threat now than before, and probably knows something we don't. Thor mentioning Xykon's fortress just solified in my mind that there's a bit more going on there, cause if the fortress was just to show Xykon was fearful for his soul's safety after his battle with V there wouldn't be a need to mention it again.

It also could never amount to anything and just be a red herring, but usually the best red herrings do in fact have a bit more to them just not what one would infer at first glance. So yeah, I think the fortress is gonna play some sort of narrative purpose, I'm just not sure what at this moment. I also doubt Xykon isn't at least more in the process of wising up to Reckoak's attempts to undermine him, and probably knows at least a bit more than we think he knows.

[Morty]

Why are we assuming Xykon is even going to be the final boss of the story? Chances are the current arc really is going to be the final one with Xykon and, if the pattern holds, there will be one final one afterwords that deals with the Snarl directly. It's kind of a waste to have a god-killing abomination and barely use it as anything other than a macguffin.

I don't know why other people assume it, because I certainly don't. What I'm saying is that it's possible, not guaranteed.

[thereaper]

Honestly I highly doubt Xykon wasn't any wiser after what Redcloak pulled, you can even see that in the conversation they had when leaving Azure City he basically just pretended to shrug it off but he seemed genuinely suspicious. Not sure to what extent he mistrusts Redcloak, but I certainly think he takes him more seriously as a threat now than before, and probably knows something we don't. Thor mentioning Xykon's fortress just solified in my mind that there's a bit more going on there, cause if the fortress was just to show Xykon was fearful for his soul's safety after his battle with V there wouldn't be a need to mention it again.

It also could never amount to anything and just be a red herring, but usually the best red herrings do in fact have a bit more to them just not what one would infer at first glance. So yeah, I think the fortress is gonna play some sort of narrative purpose, I'm just not sure what at this moment. I also doubt Xykon isn't at least more in the process of wising up to Reckoak's attempts to undermine him, and probably knows at least a bit more than we think he knows.

I interpreted Thor's reference as a joke lampshading the fact that the fortress won't be relevant. We have one book to address the tomb and the world in the rift. It seems unlikely that there is space for the fortress, too.

I do agree that it's silly to assume Xykon doesn't realize he's being tricked. SoD proved he is capable of being crafty when he wants to. The question is, what he plans to do about it.

[Ironsmith]

It's a large, magically-charged rock drifting through "space". I'll be disappointed if it doesn't get dropped on something/one.

[TRH]

Well, in addition to his personal power, Xykon has one big ace in the hole to use against Redcloak. You know, how

Spoiler: SOD Spoiler

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The MitD is geased to eat Redcloak and spit out his holy symbol if he betrays Xykon. There's no way in the world Redcloak will be prepared for that when the Monster has been an utter non-threat for as long as they've known each other, so I can't see him surviving that. And if he's taken to wearing the phylactery again, which I assume is the case, then Xykon will reclaim it afterwards, and can store it in his fortress, which would necessitate the Order going there to finish him once and for all.

As to where the Snarl plot will be at that point, I'm not sure, but maybe Xykon would have the idea of modifying his half of the ritual to move the Snarl to the most populated area in the world to devour the inhabitants out of spite for being duped. That seems about right.

[Squire Doodad]

It's a large, magically-charged rock drifting through "space". I'll be disappointed if it doesn't get dropped on something/one.

"So unless you've got a spell that drops castles on people, there's no way..."

[faustin]

Sometimes I wonder if Xykon found out about the fake phylactery. Then again, I cannot conceive any good reason he shouldn't have gone ballistic and retrieve the real one from Redcloak's corpse.

[dancrilis]

Sometimes I wonder if Xykon found out about the fake phylactery. Then again, I cannot conceive any good reason he shouldn't have gone ballistic and retrieve the real one from Redcloak's corpse.

We don't actually know that Redcloak didn't give him the real one - it is assumed but not shown.
Also we don't know if Xykon didn't spot it and swap them out.

Why would Xykon allow this - his Spellcraft is better the Tsukiko's so it is possible that she was a false flag for Redcloak and he has already figured out what she did and expanded his own half of the ritual to do more, if he has figured out that Redcloak intends to give The Dark One control of the gate then there would be a magical connection between the gate and The Dark One established which is exactly the kindof thing that a wily sorcerer like Xykon might use to allow the gate to be automatically moved and broken so that he can kill his first god - hell he might be able to siphon off enough divinity juice from it to ascend himself (and he might be much more amenable to working with others while he gets a seat at the table - which would be somewhat karmic I suppose).

When it's really important, it's worth it to go that extra mile.

[faustin]

We don't actually know that Redcloak didn't give him the real one - it is assumed but not shown.
Also we don't know if Xykon didn't spot it and swap them out.

Why would Xykon allow this - his Spellcraft is better the Tsukiko's so it is possible that she was a false flag for Redcloak and he has already figured out what she did and expanded his own half of the ritual to do more, if he has figured out that Redcloak intends to give The Dark One control of the gate then there would be a magical connection between the gate and The Dark One established which is exactly the kindof thing that a wily sorcerer like Xykon might use to allow the gate to be automatically moved and broken so that he can kill his first god - hell he might be able to siphon off enough divinity juice from it to ascend himself (and he might be much more amenable to working with others while he gets a seat at the table - which would be somewhat karmic I suppose).

When it's really important, it's worth it to go that extra mile.

Xykon as a God. Now THAT is scary.

[WindStruck]

One of the much earlier strips had them lampshading the idea that any time a dungeon is left uninhabited for any period of time, monsters move into that dungeon.

Xykon could come back to his fortress on the astral plane and find it.. annoyingly inhabited by something, again.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Xykon knows, but just.. doesn't care. Like, he's completely aware of all of Redcloak's plans, but knows that he at least needs redcloak for a bit, and then as soon as redcloak starts to try something, xykon will disintegrate him.
Granted it's not what I expect will happen, I just wouldn't be surprised.

[Squire Doodad]

One of the much earlier strips had them lampshading the idea that any time a dungeon is left uninhabited for any period of time, monsters move into that dungeon.

Xykon could come back to his fortress on the astral plane and find it.. annoyingly inhabited by something, again.

The astral plane doesn't have as many creatures that will move in, but then again...
Actually, I imagine there are people who fix that for a living.

"Mimmoth Exterminators!"

[137beth]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Xykon knows, but just.. doesn't care. Like, he's completely aware of all of Redcloak's plans, but knows that he at least needs redcloak for a bit, and then as soon as redcloak starts to try something, xykon will disintegrate him.
Granted it's not what I expect will happen, I just wouldn't be surprised.

Maybe Xykon has his own ritual that he's going to pull once he gets to the Gate?

[Manga Shoggoth]

"Mimmoth Exterminators!"

Ah. I see you are not afraid to address the elephant in the room.

[Wizard_Lizard]

The astral plane doesn't have as many creatures that will move in, but then again...
Actually, I imagine there are people who fix that for a living.

"Mimmoth Exterminators!"

Or on a more serious note, Githyanki.

[Thales]

I think Xykon doesn't really plan on destroying the world, but he's evil enough that it's something he'd be willing to do — he's just not interested in it. Redcloak betraying Xykon is one of the few things I think could get him really mad, since on some level, I think he genuinely likes Redcloak. Additionally, thanks to the events of SoD, he feels he has power over Redcloak, and so Redcloak turning the tables would be a blow to Xykon's self-conception. If he's confronted with Redcloak's betrayal in a situation where it's clear he's not going to have the leisure to soulbind Redcloak and force him to watch the extermination of the goblins or some similar revenge, I think spite would absolutely be enough to get Xykon to meteor swarm the last gate.

[Metastachydium]

I think Xykon doesn't really plan on destroying the world, but he's evil enough that it's something he'd be willing to do — he's just not interested in it. Redcloak betraying Xykon is one of the few things I think could get him really mad, since on some level, I think he genuinely likes Redcloak.

Redcloak is a useful asset, who (as far as Xykon knows) has good reasons to be loyal to him. I'm not sure Xykon is capable of actually liking anyone, and even if he is, I doubt that Redcloak's on the list.

Additionally, thanks to the events of SoD, he feels he has power over Redcloak, and so Redcloak turning the tables would be a blow to Xykon's self-conception. If he's confronted with Redcloak's betrayal in a situation where it's clear he's not going to have the leisure to soulbind Redcloak and force him to watch the extermination of the goblins or some similar revenge, I think spite would absolutely be enough to get Xykon to meteor swarm the last gate.

More like it.

[faustin]

Redcloak betraying Xykon is one of the few things I think could get him really mad, since on some level, I think he genuinely likes[/URL] Redcloak.

Xykon forced Recloack to remain without his right eye, so everytime he looked at his reflection, he would see his brother´s face looking at him back. If you have read Start of Darkness you know how damn cruel is that as a punishment.
Xykon laughs every time someone thinks he may care about anyone except himself.

[Thales]

Not arguing that Xykon is a cruel jackass who regularly mistreats Redcloak in very nasty ways. Nonetheless, I do think the exchange in 462 was one of the only instances (maybe the only?) in the comic of Xykon doing something genuinely nice. Given the circumstances, Xkyon probably thought that he really was about to die for real, and he chose to have his (nearly) final actions be putting him on the same team as Redcloak. This is a very low bar, and in an absolute sense, Xykon sure doesn't seem capable of actually having friends — see the eye thing as you mention. But I think that it's the relative, rather than the absolute that matters, and from Xykon's perspective, he really does consider Redcloak the closest thing he has to a friend.