MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So either the MITD didn't detect the magical emanations of the trap, or the MITD did but didn't know what they meant.

Or did see it, did know something was off, tried to warn RC and Xykon, and was told to shut up because the adults were talking and then ignored thereafter, which is their usual M.O.

GW

[pendell]

Or did see it, did know something was off, tried to warn RC and Xykon, and was told to shut up because the adults were talking and then ignored thereafter, which is their usual M.O.

GW

That didn't happen on panel but is possible.

I don't think that would give us insight. But IF the MITD can't detect magic -- and is susceptible to magic as seen in SOD -- does this change our analysis? It's probably not a god or demigod, but those weren't the most likely contenders. I'm still not seeing anything which would advance one of the likely candidates, but I'm hoping someone else here has more insight.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That didn't happen on panel but is possible.

Here is MitD being ignored by TE. But if you meant "we didn't see them ignore his warnings about the trap", then I have to point out we also didn't see either of your two hypotheticals.

GW

[pendell]

Here is MitD being ignored by TE. But if you meant "we didn't see them ignore his warnings about the trap", then I have to point out we also didn't see either of your two hypotheticals.

GW

The one indisputable fact we have is that the MITD did not prevent TE from triggering the teleportation trap and he evinces no awareness of its existence in the panels we see of their venture into the tomb.

If ze knew the trap existed and what it was, ze'd have had no reason to paint on the doors; ze'd know TE was wasting their time anyway. If anything, knowing about the trap would mean it would be a bad idea to mark additional doors, because that would decrease the time for TE to realize that something was wrong when all the doors were marked.

So either 1) MITD didn't detect it at all 2) MITD did detect and didn't know what it was. 3) MITD did both, and TE ignored zer.

Of these, I think 3) is least likely because the MITD would have no reason to warn TE. The MITD wants them to fail. 2) is possible but we have no evidence on panel for this eventuality.

I therefore conclude 1) is most likely but I am not ruling out 2) . I rule out 3) because, again, the MITD has no reason to warn the team. As discussed, the MITD doesn't want TE to find the gate. If the MITD knew they were going into a decoy tunnel, the MITDs best choice would be to not mark some tunnels they travelled through, so as to lengthen the time before the deception is discovered.

Do any of these three possibilities give us new insight into the MITD's nature? that's the real question, and why I brought it here instead of the main discussion thread.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If ze knew the trap existed and what it was, ze'd have had no reason to paint on the doors; ze'd know TE was wasting their time anyway.

Knowing that a teleport trap is there is not the same as knowing its purpose. He could perfectly be aware of the trap and still want to eliminate doors they have not yet gone through in case some of them don't have the trap, making them special.

I remain unconvinced that your hypotheticals hold any more water than any competing alternative, and thus attempting to draw conclusions from them is equally on shaky ground.

GW

[b_jonas]

We also know that the MITD did not detect the trap , or the MITD wouldn't have bothered painting the doors.

Oh come on. We already know that the MitD can't see gates. Why would he suddenly notice a teleportation gate?

My guess is that Xykon and Redcloak and Oona have noticed those teleportation gates long ago, and go through them deliberately. They assume what I would assume, that the gates take you to the actual dungeons, which wouldn't otherwise fit behind the tightly packed doors. They have probably already bypassed all of them, saw the short tunnels behind them, and figured that, as expected, none of them have Kraagor's Gate, which makes sense because Serini would want to protect the Gate with a full long dungeon of strong monsters. What they didn't notice is that the Order bypassed the teleportation gate this time. Perhaps Redcloak tried to explain this to the MitD, but as he can't see the gates, he failed.

So no, I don't think this tells us anything new about the MitD.

[pendell]

Knowing that a teleport trap is there is not the same as knowing its purpose. He could perfectly be aware of the trap and still want to eliminate doors they have not yet gone through in case some of them don't have the trap, making them special.

If Ze* can detect the teleport trap at all, surely Ze knows by now whether the trap is in all the tunnels or only a few? Therefore, if ze continues to mark doors, is this not an indication that either 1) The MITD is aware that the traps exist in all the tunnels or 2) The MITD is not aware of the existence of the trap at all?

I think we can rule out the possibility that the MITD believes the trap exists in only some of the tombs, as discussed above.

* I continue to use Ze because, so far as I know, we've never definitively established the MITD's gender or sex. All I know is that he's a shadow under an umbrella. If there is more information I am missing, I will gladly switch to the correct pronoun.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If Ze* can detect the teleport trap at all, surely Ze knows by now whether the trap is in all the tunnels or only a few?

Not without opening all the doors.

Therefore, if ze continues to mark doors, is this not an indication that either 1) The MITD is aware that the traps exist in all the tunnels or 2) The MITD is not aware of the existence of the trap at all?

No. It also presupposes competency in the purpose of door marking which we have canonically stablished as not necessarily existing, and being simply an indication of Mitd's character development.

I think we can rule out the possibility that the MITD believes the trap exists in only some of the tombs, as discussed above.

And I disagree with such conclusion.

* I continue to use Ze because, so far as I know, we've never definitively established the MITD's gender or sex. All I know is that he's a shadow under an umbrella. If there is more information I am missing, I will gladly switch to the correct pronoun.

As per the OP entry on gender: he creates secret clubs where girls are not allowed. That strongly suggests that he self-identifies as male. As does O-Chul referring to him as a good man.

GW

[pendell]

As per the OP entry on gender: he creates secret clubs where girls are not allowed. That strongly suggests that he self-identifies as male. As does O-Chul referring to him as a good man.

GW

Serves me right from going from memory. Very well, I will henceforth use the male pronoun when referring to MITD, since that is what he identifies as.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ortho]

We already know that the MitD can't see gates. Why would he suddenly notice a teleportation gate?

Point of fact: MiTD can see gates, he just doesn't recognize them as anything significant. And it's fair to attribute that particular quick to his childish mentality and rule of funny.

[lio45]

Or did see it, did know something was off, tried to warn RC and Xykon, and was told to shut up because the adults were talking and then ignored thereafter, which is their usual M.O.

GW

MitD has stopped collaborating with Team Evil though. I would be extremely surprised if he did anything to actually help them (as opposed to just pretending to help) from now on.

[Darth V]

Alternative hypothesis: He did notice the trap(s), but pointing it out would be rude to the trap makers, so he didn't.

Also remember this: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0893.html (6th panel)



@pendell,

We also know that the MITD did not detect the trap , or the MITD wouldn't have bothered painting the doors.

Citation needed.

The one indisputable fact we have is that the MITD did not prevent TE from triggering the teleportation trap and he evinces no awareness of its existence in the panels we see of their venture into the tomb.

If ze knew the trap existed and what it was, [...]

You are making stuff up. No, that is not speculating, you are infering things that we did not see. We don't know if the MitD noticed the traps or not! We didn't see him with a trap. We only know/see that neither Xykon, Redcloak or Oona did *react* to the trap. Did they not know? Did they know and just didn't care? We don't know yet.

If Ze* can detect the teleport trap at all, surely Ze knows by now whether the trap is in all the tunnels or only a few? Therefore, if ze continues to mark doors, is this not an indication that either 1) The MITD is aware that the traps exist in all the tunnels or 2) The MITD is not aware of the existence of the trap at all?

Do you know the saying about what the word "assume" is doing to people?
You still have to make a plausible case for your assertions to be even possible. Where do we get a hint that MitD did notice the traps? Citation needed.

That didn't happen on panel but is possible.

Exactly.

Assertion: The entire OOTS is still trapped in Girard's illusion. It didn't happen on panel but it is still possible.




Regarding MitD's gender: The Wolf already pointed it out, but here is the link: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html

See? That is how backing up assertions is supposed to work.

[LeSwordfish]

As per the OP entry on gender: he creates secret clubs where girls are not allowed. That strongly suggests that he self-identifies as male. As does O-Chul referring to him as a good man.

GW

It suggests that he does not self-identify as female - Vaarsuvius would not describe themselves as a girl. I'm happy to continue referring to him as "he" based on the lack of objections he's raised to the use of those pronouns, or the "good man" descriptor, but Vaarsuvius is not "male" and has raised few objections to those either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It suggests that he does not self-identify as female - Vaarsuvius would not describe themselves as a girl. I'm happy to continue referring to him as "he" based on the lack of objections he's raised to the use of those pronouns, or the "good man" descriptor, but Vaarsuvius is not "male" and has raised few objections to those either.

If he identified as anything other than male - a sophistication on self-awareness that does not match his personality - his clubs would not exclude only girls, it would exclude any number of other genders (i.e. he'd create an "only asexual biromantics" clubs, or whatever other combination fit him). It would also, again, require an advanced thought process unlikely to be found in the kind of person that creates clubs that exclude girls - i.e. 8 year old boys, who are not known for being on the cutting edge of the realities of human sexuality, but are keenly aware that they are not girls, and girls are "icky" (by which they mean, really interesting in ways they are not yet ready to confront).

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you truly want to argue that MitD is keenly aware of the vast broad spectrum of human sexuality, despite being both non-human and naive, you need to present some kind of evidence beyond "sure, technically he only mentioned opposition to girls, not explicitly being a boy, so he might have been picturing a club for anything other than Kinsley-0 women", which is a massive stretch.

All of which I was aware of, thus styling the original conclusion as "strongly suggests" rather than "conclusively proves".

GW

[Peelee]

If he identified as anything other than male - a sophistication on self-awareness that does not match his personality - his clubs would not exclude only girls, it would exclude any number of other genders (i.e. he'd create an "only asexual biromantics" clubs, or whatever other combination fit him). It would also, again, require an advanced thought process unlikely to be found in the kind of person that creates clubs that exclude girls - i.e. 8 year old boys, who are not known for being on the cutting edge of the realities of human sexuality, but are keenly aware that they are not girls, and girls are "icky" (by which they mean, really interesting in ways they are not yet ready to confront).

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If you truly want to argue that MitD is keenly aware of the vast broad spectrum of human sexuality, despite being both non-human and naive, you need to present some kind of evidence beyond "sure, technically he only mentioned opposition to girls, not explicitly being a boy, so he might have been picturing a club for anything other than Kinsley-0 women", which is a massive stretch.

GW

Even all that aside, I'm a much bigger fan of using the existing and prefectly functional singular "they" rather than making up new versions with various letters, if one really wants to be non-specific. But that's just me.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Even all that aside, I'm a much bigger fan of using the existing and prefectly functional singular "they" rather than making up new versions with various letters, if one really wants to be non-specific. But that's just me.

Not just you - I too am in favour of using they/them in English*, given that it already abandoned the second person singular for its plural (i.e. thee/thou for you/your), so abandoning the third person singular is just treading the same already worn path. And if someone chose to invoke the spirit of the slippery slope and claim that might lead to everyone using majestic first person, we'd be fine with that.

Grey Wolf

*In fact, if you were to ask me about my pronouns, those are the ones I'd request you use

[Doug Lampert]

Not just you - I too am in favour of using they/them in English*, given that it already abandoned the second person singular for its plural (i.e. thee/thou for you/your), so abandoning the third person singular is just treading the same already worn path. And if someone chose to invoke the spirit of the slippery slope and claim that might lead to everyone using majestic first person, we'd be fine with that.

Grey Wolf

*In fact, if you were to ask me about my pronouns, those are the ones I'd request you use

We feel that this contention misses out on the glory that is "ya'll", or even "all ya'll", the second person plural is alive and well in Our English as We speak it. Which in turn means that there is a definite second person singular available since "you" is not used for anything else in Our Majestic Language.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We feel that this contention misses out on the glory that is "ya'll", or even "all ya'll", the second person plural is alive and well in Our English as We speak it. Which in turn means that there is a definite second person singular available since "you" is not used for anything else in Our Majestic Language.

Certainly, but one fears you might be missing our point: English, just as it is happy to club other languages in dark alleys and ruffle through their pockets for spare vocabulary, it is also not shy about chucking overboard any it no longer wants. So sure, we could easily consider "you", the former plural second person, to have become the current singular second person, with "y'all" as the second person small plural and "all y'all' as the second person large plural. If nothing else, it strengthens my opinion that it should be no big deal to drop the "he/she/him/her" abomination for the so much tighter "they/them" construction, and then watch as Texas comes up with a replacement third person plural.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

"y'all" as the second person small plural and "all y'all' as the second person large plural.

That is indeed how I and most people I know use 'em.

[Fyraltari]

That is indeed how I and most people I know use 'em.

Isn't this a regional thing, though?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Isn't this a regional thing, though?

It is, but has been steadily gaining traction. It is not quite official, however one wishes to define it, but it is definitely obtaining acceptance across the English speaking world. "Y'all", anyway. "All y'all", not as much.

GW

[Jasdoif]

That is indeed how I and most people I know use 'em.

Isn't this a regional thing, though?

If you're counting attempts to evoke/satirize an aesthetic of cowboy/rural culture (or maybe country music); "ya'll" has been in use across the United States for decades.

[Sir_Norbert]

The United States is not the only English-speaking country in the world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The United States is not the only English-speaking country in the world.

Under appropriate conditions, the sun rises.

If he were not dead, he would still be alive.

GW

[Jasdoif]

The United States is not the only English-speaking country in the world.

The United States isn't a single linguistically homogeneous region, either.

[Fyraltari]

Under appropriate conditions, the sun rises.

If he were not dead, he would still be alive.

GW

That last one is just a letter-spacing issue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

GW

That last one is just a letter-spacing issue.

I mean, I suppose I could sign "G W", yes, but one feels the spacing is not particularly called for there.

Yours,
I'm in an odd mood today, it seems
GreyWolf

[Fyraltari]

I mean, I suppose I could sign "G W", yes, but one feels the spacing is not particularly called for there.

Yours,
I'm in an odd mood today, it seems
GreyWolf

"GVV" is always available.

[Peelee]

Under appropriate conditions, the sun rises.

There is a stratospherically high chance I will shamelessly steal this for future use.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There is a stratospherically high chance I will shamelessly steal this for future use.

By all means, given that I just copy-pasted it from the wikipedia page on truisms.

GW