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  1. - Top - End - #271
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Sir_Norbert: let me fix that.

    For the vote concerning reorganization of section 3a in first posts, I change my vote slightly. I now vote for D (remove FBS section) would be best, then F (destroy it so everyone finds it useless and ignores it), FI (same), E (remove but make popularity vote section), B, C, CI, Z, I, BI. The change is that I added option I.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-07-29 at 02:05 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Neponde View Post
    Depends on how seriously.

    I've entirely forgotten the relevance of this discussion, but that took too long for my fat thumbs to type to erase now..
    Typing with your "Fat thumbs" ? You had me confused momentarily. 😃
    Last edited by Hardcore; 2020-07-29 at 04:27 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, you could claim a lot of things. And while it might be the best kind of correct, its also useless in most contexts, and therefore wrong.
    In the context of astrophysics, we tend to round numers to the nearest power of ten, though often logarithimically. 2 is basically 1, as is 3, but log(5) is basically the same as log(10), so 5 is basically 10. In this context, 2+2 is still basically 1, so we don't care about being more precise than that; it's only estimates, after all. This is important because we're operating with numbers that are several orders of magnitude apart and their individual uncertainities are so huge that some rounding error doesn't really matter to you. 1 000 001 is no different from 1 000 002 when your uncertainity is +- 100.

    In the context of abstract algebra, there are certainly groups and rings with the property that 2+2 = 5. Why, the simplest one is the binary ring where all numbers that aren't 0 are equal to 1.

    There are many mathemathical (and in fact, practical, because engineering) problem spaces where mathemathical statements under the common assumptions of the Peano axioms are not true and vice versa. That's why establishing a common reference frame and set of axioms is so important in the first place!

    Also, if voting hasn't concluded yet (because this is page 10):

    H > B > F > I > E
    Last edited by Scizor; 2020-07-29 at 06:51 AM.
    Check out the guys at MitD's thread!
    Quote Originally Posted by DaggerPen View Post
    I still need to trim it down based on publication date, etc., but for now, it's a start.
    It has almost 21k monsters at the moment.
    ... who says we've run out of monsters to check?

  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    A baby MitD wouldn't age while on the Astral Plane, but once he left, the aging would apply retroactively.
    Very, extremely true. But, that would only apply physically, not mentally. He'd get a mature brain, but with no real experience or knowledge to fill it with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I'm just a bit confused, in what way is him being a son of Typhon the best fit? Just, narratively, what about it is good, I seem to be lost. Are you just working exclusively off of "he is a child" and "he was possibly at the Astral Plane at some point"? Or am I missing something...
    You're not wrong, though, to quote a great leader, "I like the way I phrased it better." I've come to see his presence in the Astral Plane, combined with his story as we know it, along with his child-like demeanor, as collectively the most interesting tidbits of information we have about him. Other folks' mileage may vary. But that's what I've decided to work backwards from. Largely because it seems to me to suggest that as an infant, he could have been in the Astral Plane for an indefinite period of time, and we'd have no way to tell the difference. That's a very intriguing door to open, at least to my mind. But the only reason that would be really interesting if it was significant in some way, and that seems to cry out for him being from the original world.

    Though, if it turned out he was a Deep Fried Snickers Titan from the sentient movie theater snack world, I wouldn't complain.

    As for why Typhon...he's huge, he's monstrous, he's shape-shifter-y, and he's from the correct time period. Basically, he ticks the boxes I was looking for, in light of what I said previously. I'm not filled with confidence on that score, but then realistically speaking I don't expect my point about the Astral Plane to pan out either. But in this very low-stakes guessing game, that's what I'm putting my lack of money on.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    2, mathematically, is exactly 2. Mathematics is exact. It's not a measurement which is where last-digit rounding assumptions come into play. There are no significant digits in math - 2 can be rewritten as 2.000000... It's zeros all the way down.
    As an applied mathematician, you can not assume that an = sign means its mathematical definition.

    In computer programming it's an assignment operator, quite different. In daily use, it's approximate.

    Yesterday I debugged a code failure, which resulted from 1/3 * 3 being something like 1.0000000000000002 in a particular bit of code (it's worse than that, because the 1 in that 1/3 was actually cos(0)-cos(pi/2) and it turns out that cos(pi/2) was not exactly 0, so it was actually X/3 * 3 + (1-X) that was coming out to be >1 where X SHOULD have been exactly 1, but wasn't.

    Yet all the equations and assignments involved had nice "=" signs and should have been correct if we assume that when people use mathematical notation they mean formal mathematics with Euclid's axioms.

  6. - Top - End - #276
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    As an applied mathematician, you can not assume that an = sign means its mathematical definition.

    In computer programming it's an assignment operator, quite different. In daily use, it's approximate.

    Yesterday I debugged a code failure, which resulted from 1/3 * 3 being something like 1.0000000000000002 in a particular bit of code (it's worse than that, because the 1 in that 1/3 was actually cos(0)-cos(pi/2) and it turns out that cos(pi/2) was not exactly 0, so it was actually X/3 * 3 + (1-X) that was coming out to be >1 where X SHOULD have been exactly 1, but wasn't.

    Yet all the equations and assignments involved had nice "=" signs and should have been correct if we assume that when people use mathematical notation they mean formal mathematics with Euclid's axioms.
    I mean, i dont have the code to see, but from your description it seems like the entire bug was that an operation intended to be 1/3 * 3 was not actually so because the variables being used to get to that were wrong. Not that 1/3 * 3 doesnt equal 1. IE you didnt actually have 1/3 * 3 in the first place.
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-07-29 at 09:18 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    code
    This.

    Anytime a floating point unit is involved, you have to accept and understand that all numbers are going to be rough approximations of this "ideal" "pure" mathematical number that doesn't, in fact, exist.

    Also, how often have you seen a statistical result that list percentages, and a note at the bottom saying something along the lines of "totals may not add up to 100% due to rounding"? That also is an example of situations when 2+2 = 5.

    Neither situation is uncommon, or false, or even necessarily in error. It is just a reality that rounding is an every day tool, and with its use, comes a caveat.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-29 at 09:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  8. - Top - End - #278
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    ElfWarriorGuy

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    I KNEW a math reference would get the discussion hopping again!

    Edit - My wife read that and thought I was insane, but the joke was on her!

    Edit2 - Which also reminds me of a story. Every fall, I get together with some old friends for a long weekend. We head to central Vermont from wherever everyone lives now to look at foliage, drink beer, play disc golf during the day and bridge at night. One time we ordered a pizza, and the guy paying (he's an English professor) complained "Ugh, all this stupid math" (and all he was doing was figuring out the tip). Mr Director (not his actual name, but we call him that because he's the "tournament director" and keeps track of the scoring for the weekend. Everything gets scored and there's a winner), who is a Statistics professor (at a different school), commented "You don't understand. You're just about the only one here who isn't an engineer or a statistician. The rest of us would fight each other for the FUN of figuring it out."
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-29 at 09:37 AM.
    "You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan

  9. - Top - End - #279
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    As an applied mathematician, you can not assume that an = sign means its mathematical definition.
    I can when someone says "[x] is just [y] mathematically".

    ETA: I also have to note that before someone made such a claim, I made no such assumptions.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-29 at 09:35 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    2, mathematically, is exactly 2. Mathematics is exact. It's not a measurement which is where last-digit rounding assumptions come into play. There are no significant digits in math - 2 can be rewritten as 2.000000... It's zeros all the way down.
    Unless you're on the Discworld. There, it's turtles all the way down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
    Namer Of MitD Threads
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Unless you're on the Discworld. There, it's turtles all the way down.
    No, that's in a different source. The Great A'tuin is swimming, unsupported by anything other than its flippers, through space.

    Grey Wolf
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, that's in a different source. The Great A'tuin is swimming, unsupported by anything other than its flippers, through space.

    Grey Wolf
    It's hyperdimensional abominations from beyond the mind's edge all the way down.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


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    I joke, therefore I meme."
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  13. - Top - End - #283
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Unless you're on the Discworld. There, it's turtles all the way down.
    Right. Turtles are round, like zeroes. You're secretly the same person, aren't you?

    Edit - And now I have a mental image of Great Cthulhu's stacked on top of each other, infinitely.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-29 at 11:03 AM.
    "You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Right. Turtles are round, like zeroes. You're secretly the same person, aren't you?
    Discs are round too!
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

    See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.

    Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
    Green is serious talk about hypothetical
    Blue is irony and sarcasm


    "I think, therefore I am,
    I walk, therefore I stand,
    I sleep, therefore I dream;
    I joke, therefore I meme."
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    I mean, i dont have the code to see, but from your description it seems like the entire bug was that an operation intended to be 1/3 * 3 was not actually so because the variables being used to get to that were wrong. Not that 1/3 * 3 doesnt equal 1. IE you didnt actually have 1/3 * 3 in the first place.
    Nope, the result should have been 1 either way. The error in COS(PI/2) was canceled out by the time the number was used. The actual error that caused the crash was because the divide by 3 followed by multiply by 3 didn't return the same value.

    This particular bit of code probably dates back to the seventies (based on purpose, history, and coding style), with several hundred users at any given time, and as far as we can tell this bit of code had never given any problem till this week. [Up until about 10 years ago we distributed source code, it's possible people had hit it in the field prior to that time and not reported as they could fix it themselves. But no one had reported it as far as we can tell.]

    We have tests for round-off errors and for values that are supposed to be between -1 and +1 actually being in that range buried all through the code, but not for this one, because it had never previously given any problem [it took a very unusual input case to generate it this time, I'm tempted to ask the user what he was doing, but I really don't want to know].

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Thank you for noticing. I hope so too, and I do try to double check my work, but it's a lot of votes. I strongly encourage everyone to double check I've captured their latest votes accurately, though.
    It looks like you're close; only slightly off on two.

    Spoiler: Short Version
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Kish B C A Z E D
    But:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    In order, B, C, A, Z, E, F, D.
    I'll note that Kish's later post was a reiteration, not an alteration; E was before F in the original post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Squire Doodad A Z
    But:
    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I'd like to change my vote to I->A->Z


    Spoiler: Full Version
    Show
    Matches? Name from vote table Vote from vote table Relevant posts
    Grey Wolf
    • Z
    • D
    • E
    • C
    • H
    • !(A, F)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Grey Wolf Z D E C H !(A, F)
    MartytheBioGuy
    • A
    • C
    • B
    • !E
    Quote Originally Posted by MartytheBioGuy View Post
    I'm in favor of options A, C, or B, in that order.
    Quote Originally Posted by MartytheBioGuy View Post
    Oh, with his in mind, I'f like to add !(E) to my vote, if possible.
    Kish
    • B
    • C
    • A
    • Z
    • E
    • D
    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    In order, B, C, A, Z, E, F, D.
    Crusher
    • C
    • B
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    I vote C > B > Z
    Sir_Norbert
    • C
    • B
    • I
    • Z
    • !(D,E)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    Now that option I exists, I change my vote to C > B > I > Z > !(D,E).
    lio45
    • A
    • Any(G,H)
    • C
    • !Z
    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    I'll be updating my vote to

    A > Any(G,H) > C > !Z
    InvisibleBison
    • A
    • B
    • C
    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    I'll vote A, B, C.
    Neponde
    • H
    • C
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Neponde View Post
    I'm changing to H > C > Z.
    catagent101
    • C
    • D
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by catagent101 View Post
    Put me down for C > D > Z
    dmc91356
    • C
    • B
    • F
    • I
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by dmc91356 View Post
    Hmm, with the changes since my initial vote, I guess I am now going with:

    C > B > F > I > Z
    Squire Doodad
    • A
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I'd like to change my vote to I->A->Z
    3powers(sic)
    • A
    • D
    • C
    • B
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Vote is A -> D-> C -> B -> Z
    Spirare
    • A
    • F
    • !(D, E, H,Z)
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirare View Post
    Changing vote to A > F > !(D, E, H, Z).
    Jasdoif
    • A
    • E
    • Z
    • D
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    So, my vote is now: A ; E; Z; D
    Malloon
    • E
    • G
    • Any of (A, B, C)
    • Z
    • !(D, E)
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    1. (Not quite) E): with the clause mentioned by Crusher that a periodic (or democratically decided) refresher is a must. I'm not going to quibble what form this takes, just that there is one. In fact, since I'd prefer having the FBS to E) without a refresher, it's probably best to call this option F) or G) instead (I can't seem to deduce if F) is taken or not).
    Listed it as E, but clarified that E's specific process will be decided later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    2. Another homebrew. A), but with the caveat that the proposed creature has to plausibly have juvenile versions (aka. not explicitly excluded or have fluff that makes it impossible). So basically replacing FBS condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles". Call it H), or A.2), or whatever.
    ...Put you down for G...
    ....
    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    3. Any subset of A), B) or C).
    I don't consider (A,B,C) to be a subset of itself, for probably all the wrong reasons, so I listed it first, then the subset you requested.
    Changed my mind, since A, B, C are all incompatible with each other, so instead I list just what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    4. Z), just to torpedo D) or E) (as written) with as much power is bestowed on me.
    Did that, and then went ahead and added !(D, E), given that seems to be your preference.
    Jaxzan Proditor
    • A
    • C
    • Z
    • B
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Thus, my vote will be the following. A > C > Z > B
    Qwertystop
    • Any of (B, F)
    • H
    • G
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    Either of (B, F) > H > G > Z
    Doug Lampert
    • C
    • I
    • B
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Amend my vote to C>I>B>Z.
    Charybdis136
    • B
    Quote Originally Posted by Charybdis136 View Post
    I vote for B.
    Savil
    • I
    • C
    • B
    • Any of (G, H)
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Savil View Post
    Weird, I was sure there was an option "list xenocrysth in FBS as an exception with size as a con", but I don't see it now. That would be my first choice, but if it isn't available, C>B>G,H>Z
    There was, but it was my own, and decided to remove it, because I realised it's essentially option E, except for only one suggestion. If we want to move to approval voting "community choice", we might as well be consistent about it, and not just do it for some but not others.

    That said, if you want to put it back in, I'll do that. In the meantime, I've added the other votes. I interpreted G,H as Any of (G,H) since they are not compatible (i.e. if we have H, we don't need to also have G)

    ETA: you know what, it hurts nothing for me to add it back. Durkon's Thor knows my hope of getting all possible options before the vote went out the window within minutes of the vote starting anyway, what's one more. Done.
    Joerg
    • C
    • I
    • A
    • any of (G, H)
    • Z
    • E
    • B
    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    C > I > A > any of (G, H) > Z > E > B
    b_jonas
    • D
    • F
    • (F, I)
    • E
    • B
    • C
    • (C, I)
    • Z
    • I
    • (B, I)
    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    I now vote for D (remove FBS section) would be best, then F (destroy it so everyone finds it useless and ignores it), FI (same), E (remove but make popularity vote section), B, C, CI, Z, I, BI.
    LadyEowyn
    • A
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    I’m voting for option A (remove the size limitation, leave all else the same).
    mjp1050
    • A
    • C
    • !(E,Z)
    Quote Originally Posted by mjp1050 View Post
    I'll place my votes for A > C > !E > !Z
    Ariko
    • H
    • I
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariko View Post
    H and I.
    ReaderAt2046
    • I
    • B
    • C
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    My top vote is Option I, followed by B, C, and Z.
    Throknor
    • Z
    • F
    • G
    • H
    • I
    • !(D,E,C,B,A)
    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).
    ArkenBrony
    • F
    • B
    • C
    • I
    • D
    • A
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by ArkenBrony View Post
    I'd like to vote in the order F -> B -> C -> I -> D -> A -> Z
    Ruck
    • F
    • Z
    • I
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    F, Z, I
    Darth Paul
    • Any of (B, H, I)
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Paul View Post
    Look at what happens when I take a few days away from the computer.

    B, H, I -> Z

    I think that means any of B, H, or I, no preference, and if none of those, then Z. Correct? I still haven't mastered this voting system.
    Technically not, that's "B, H & I together, or not at all", but I've recorded it as "Any of (B, H, I)", which is what you describe.
    Jaziggy
    • A
    • H
    • I
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaziggy View Post
    My vote is A>H>I
    ranagrande
    • E
    • D
    • A
    • G
    • H
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by ranagrande View Post
    I will vote E > D > A > G > H > Z
    Vulkos
    • A
    • G
    • H
    • C
    • B
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulkos View Post
    A > G > H > C > B
    Emanick
    • B
    • C
    • A
    • F
    • I
    • Z
    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    Anyway, my votes are B > C > A > F > I > Z.
    Hardcore
    • E
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    I vote E.
    Scizor
    • H
    • B
    • F
    • I
    • E
    Quote Originally Posted by Scizor View Post
    Also, if voting hasn't concluded yet (because this is page 10):

    H > B > F > I > E
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    This.

    Anytime a floating point unit is involved, you have to accept and understand that all numbers are going to be rough approximations of this "ideal" "pure" mathematical number that doesn't, in fact, exist.

    Also, how often have you seen a statistical result that list percentages, and a note at the bottom saying something along the lines of "totals may not add up to 100% due to rounding"? That also is an example of situations when 2+2 = 5.

    Neither situation is uncommon, or false, or even necessarily in error. It is just a reality that rounding is an every day tool, and with its use, comes a caveat.

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    My wife is a cost analyst, when she's venting about work, she mentions people having fits over the fact that if they're using a purchase price of (say) $5,295,230.06 for 7 units, then the unit cost is claimed to be $756,461.44, and if you multiply that back together it is CLEARLY $5,295,230.08 not the stated $5,295,230.06, and this sort of error is totally unacceptable, and she needs to correct it at once.

    Note that she's not supposed to correct the actual price (that's real), she needs to make the spreadsheet multiply the unit cost by the number of units and come out right. Which involves having fractional penny costs in the unit cost, which can make other numbers elsewhere in the process break because the spreadsheet was designed to deal with actual amounts of money by people aware that there are no fractional pennies (or in some cases it's making stuff come out to the nearest dollar rather than penny).

    Apparently, the kind of mind that worries over a couple of pennies in a multimillion dollar cost estimate, and wastes time trying to deal with it, is not the kind of mind that easily comprehends the words "round off error" as an explanation of stuff not working the way they think it should.

    [Edited to add: To be fair, there are automated error checking tools involved, if they don't like something it flags and isn't supposed to pass. So we should actually be blaming the writers of the tools.]
    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2020-07-29 at 01:59 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    My wife is a cost analyst, when she's venting about work, she mentions people having fits over the fact that if they're using a purchase price of (say) $5,295,230.06 for 7 units, then the unit cost is claimed to be $756,461.44, and if you multiply that back together it is CLEARLY $5,295,230.08 not the stated $5,295,230.06, and this sort of error is totally unacceptable, and she needs to correct it at once.

    Note that she's not supposed to correct the actual price (that's real), she needs to make the spreadsheet multiply the unit cost by the number of units and come out right. Which involves having fractional penny costs in the unit cost, which can make other numbers elsewhere in the process break because the spreadsheet was designed to deal with actual amounts of money by people aware that there are no fractional pennies (or in some cases it's making stuff come out to the nearest dollar rather than penny).

    Apparently, the kind of mind that worries over a couple of pennies in a multimillion dollar cost estimate, and wastes time trying to deal with it, is not the kind of mind that easily comprehends the words "round off error" as an explanation of stuff not working the way they think it should.
    Yes, I treat accounting data requests very differently from how I treat statistical data requests. The former are why I store numbers that come to me with 5 decimal places in structures that accommodate 15. I have more than once been asked to articulate why sales of equipment in the hundreds of millions of currency units are off by a centesimal currency unit.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Here's another thing to think aobut whenever bringing up a semantics argument about numbers:

    The circumference of a circle of C=2rπ, right? On a perfectly flat plane with a perfect circle?

    Now then. What's an example of a perfectly flat 2-D plane? Does it exist?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, I treat accounting data requests very differently from how I treat statistical data requests. The former are why I store numbers that come to me with 5 decimal places in structures that accommodate 15. I have more than once been asked to articulate why sales of equipment in the hundreds of millions of currency units are off by a centesimal currency unit.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    2, mathematically, is exactly 2. Mathematics is exact. It's not a measurement which is where last-digit rounding assumptions come into play. There are no significant digits in math - 2 can be rewritten as 2.000000... It's zeros all the way down.
    Context matters. When counting things 2 is probably exactly 2. When measuring it rarely is. By itself "2 + 2 = 5" doesn't indicate if it is counting lights or combining measurements.

    But how, one might ask, would two measurements of 2 total 5?

    (I think you know this, but I'm throwing it out for discussion purposes. And because I typed it before re-reading and realizing that.)
    In an analysis class I had once involving best fit curves and yada yada, the first thing taught was significant digits. If a measurement was 2.348* it was important to remember that it represented anywhere from 2.3475 to 2.3484, and this rounding would need tracked through any graphing or maths done later. This was because no matter how well calibrated a measuring instrument was it had a limit to what it could measure, whether a wood ruler where the lines were a quarter of a millimeter wide or some fancy instrument that still could only get to within 5 Angstroms. Any such inaccuracies would essentially multiply as different measurements with possibly different errors were combined.

    More relevant to the current discussion it meant that 2 mm <> 2.0 mm <> 2.0000 mm as the last was far more accurate. So each measurement could be thought of as 2 [+/- 0.5] mm, 2 [+/- 0.05] mm and 2 [+/- .00005] mm. And 2 [+/- 0.5] mm + 2 [+/- 0.5] mm = 4 [+/- 1.0] mm, meaning that the two things that were measured at "2 mm" could easily be "5 mm" when combined together.

    * I'm choosing to use the underline convention to indicate the last significant digit throughout. While it might be more common to change units or using exponential notation it's easier to see how I get to 2 + 2 = 5 if I do it this way.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Context matters.
    Indeed. So let's look at the context of my comment. I was responding to this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Neponde View Post
    2 is really just 2.x mathematically.
    Sooooooooo..........
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Context matters.
    Yeah, I think we can narrow disagreements here to whether "2" without context means

    1) 2.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. ..

    or

    2) 2 ± 0.5


    (Personally, to me, #1, no doubt. In more applied fields, I can see why #2 would be the natural assumption.)
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    2 ± 0.5
    Or possibly(probably?) [1.5, 2.5) .
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Or possibly(probably?) [1.5, 2.5) .
    So ±1 (rounded, of course).
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Or possibly(probably?) [1.5, 2.5) .
    Exact same thing, no?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    2 ± 0.5
    Or possibly(probably?) [1.5, 2.5) .
    Exact same thing, no?
    No. [1.5, 2.5) is inclusive on 1.5 and exclusive on 2.5. So it doesn't include 2.5 (because that would round to 3).
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Yeah, I think we can narrow disagreements here to whether "2" without context means

    1) 2.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. ..

    or

    2) 2 ± 0.5
    Not entirely; there are contexts where the degree of rounding does not coincide with number of significant figures in base 10. If I say to someone "I'll meet you at Starbucks at 2", I certainly don't mean I intend to arrive exactly at 2, but rather, within five minutes either side (and I would expect it not to be treated as a serious breach of promise if I'm up to ten minutes late).

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    Not entirely; there are contexts where the degree of rounding does not coincide with number of significant figures in base 10. If I say to someone "I'll meet you at Starbucks at 2", I certainly don't mean I intend to arrive exactly at 2, but rather, within five minutes either side (and I would expect it not to be treated as a serious breach of promise if I'm up to ten minutes late).
    Given that the argument specified "without context," I'm not sure how well a rebuttal regarding different contexts holds up.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Given that the argument specified "without context," I'm not sure how well a rebuttal regarding different contexts holds up.
    OK, I really didn't want to comment on this, but "without context" is impossible. From what I see, claiming that numbers "without context" are to be taken as the platonic ideal numbers is adding a context - the platonic ideal number, mathematically exact, context.

    In my everyday life, number are not the platonic ideal of a number. They are fuzzy things that are approximated for ease of handling. And specially when discussing if 2+2 = 5, you can't strip context, because that's where the conversation started - in the context where 2 + 2 may equal 5.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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