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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I mean, it checks the boxes fairly well, but the parenting/development is a bit of a stumble. It takes literally centuries to reach white slaad evolution, and as a species, they don't do parenting. It was an open question if Rich would mess with that, but we have seen slaad reproduction in-comic, and it works as RAW, so, if anything, it is a bigger issue than it was a while back. And it'd depend on the hunters believing that slaads talk random nonsense just like Elan does, because there is nothing surprising about a slaad speaking common, AFAIUI.

    Grey Wolf
    Parenting: It's still closer then most Outsiders, at least Slaad have parents (The father was there when the Archon gave birth in the flashback.) I also think Slaad paralleling Modrons binary isn't too farfetched.

    Another big issue I will admit is that MitD has a very low wisdom score in series and Slaad have high wisdom scores. MitD should be in the 4-6 range, White Slaad have a 26.
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  2. - Top - End - #422
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Another big issue I will admit is that MitD has a very low wisdom score in series and Slaad have high wisdom scores. MitD should be in the 4-6 range, White Slaad have a 26.
    4-6? That low?

    I was never really under the impression that MitD had such a penalty to Wisdom. I'd place it in the 10-12 range, myself.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    It wasn't supposed to be a serious suggestion when I made it, but I have to say, it has grown on me. There is a nice funny payoff of the kind that would appeal to Rich, I think.

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    And it does seem to fit the mindset of the Rich of the summer of 2004 pretty well too.

    (That's something I've always considered a weak point of Ruck's "thematic" case for the Protean - it fits really well with the themes dear to the later Rich, but not really that well with the joke-a-day one.)

    (IMO, Sleeplax also fits pretty well the with the state of mind of Rich in the summer of 2004 with respect to his comic.)
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  4. - Top - End - #424
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp1050 View Post
    4-6? That low?

    I was never really under the impression that MitD had such a penalty to Wisdom. I'd place it in the 10-12 range, myself.
    Can't tell how hard to hit someone, can't tell that monopoly money is fake, can't tell that plastic cherries aren't food, has no sense motive skills, has no perception skills (IE can't see things in the same room.) Guesses explosions come from beans, no common sense. All the evidence is that he has next to no wisdom.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Can't tell how hard to hit someone, can't tell that monopoly money is fake, can't tell that plastic cherries aren't food, has no sense motive skills, has no perception skills (IE can't see things in the same room.) Guesses explosions come from beans, no common sense. All the evidence is that he has next to no wisdom.
    That's a fair analysis, (though I'll dispute the last two).
    I suppose I find it odd that such a powerful creature would have such a low stat. His Strength is >30; it doesn't seem right to me that his Wisdom is 1/6 of that.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp1050 View Post
    That's a fair analysis, (though I'll dispute the last two).
    I suppose I find it odd that such a powerful creature would have such a low stat. His Strength is >30; it doesn't seem right to me that his Wisdom is 1/6 of that.
    I can see the issue there, but remember 8 is average. If he had a wisdom of 6 he is slightly below average wisdom, 10-12 would be wiser than a normal person.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Vibranium: If it was on the periodic table, its chemical symbol would be "Bs".

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    I can see the issue there, but remember 8 is average. If he had a wisdom of 6 he is slightly below average wisdom, 10-12 would be wiser than a normal person.
    10 is average for a human - neither a penalty nor a bonus. But what is "true" average depends on the species.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-08-10 at 06:27 PM.
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  8. - Top - End - #428
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by mjp1050 View Post
    I suppose I find it odd that such a powerful creature would have such a low stat. His Strength is >30; it doesn't seem right to me that his Wisdom is 1/6 of that.
    I'd like to point out that the Half-Dragons doesn't add a wisdom bonus, so a stacked Half-Dragon would still have its original wisdom. (It also doesn't add a Dexterity bonus, but that's because "exaggerated claws" stacked makes it hard to handle anything with your hands.) Although if the base creature is a dragon, it can't have low wisdom. The stack I proposed has 63 strength and 13 wisdom.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-08-10 at 07:48 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    (That's something I've always considered a weak point of Ruck's "thematic" case for the Protean - it fits really well with the themes dear to the later Rich, but not really that well with the joke-a-day one.)
    How many times does Rich have to say he chose the species when he put together the full story, and that the species of MITD is a crucial part of the story?

    edit: I say "How many" because he just said it again in his latest Patreon Q&A post.
    Last edited by Ruck; 2020-08-10 at 08:39 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    How many times does Rich have to say he chose the species when he put together the full story, and that the species of MITD is a crucial part of the story?

    edit: I say "How many" because he just said it again in his latest Patreon Q&A post.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I mean, it checks the boxes fairly well, but the parenting/development is a bit of a stumble. It takes literally centuries to reach white slaad evolution, and as a species, they don't do parenting. It was an open question if Rich would mess with that, but we have seen slaad reproduction in-comic, and it works as RAW, so, if anything, it is a bigger issue than it was a while back. And it'd depend on the hunters believing that slaads talk random nonsense just like Elan does, because there is nothing surprising about a slaad speaking common, AFAIUI.

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    Elan's dim and rather oblivious, but he doesn't speak random nonsense.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    Elan's dim and rather oblivious, but he doesn't speak random nonsense.
    But he believes that Slaad do.

    I agree that Grey Wolf could have parsed that sentence better, I was confused at first too.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    But he believes that Slaad do.

    I agree that Grey Wolf could have parsed that sentence better, I was confused at first too.
    Yeah, I... I got it. Thanks. And thank you for the reminder I've yet to ease people here into my sense of humour - I have updated my signature to compensate.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    It's a bizarre thought, but... Could he be an amnesiac worm that walks?

    I mean, they have spellcasting and it would explain how he understood the half a ritual just by looking at it.

    They at least have the potential to know how to cast teleport.

    They know the languages they knew but rarely speak so it would be surprising to hear them speak common.

    They're made up of thousands of insects. Explains the circus scene.

    They have frightful presence so that would explain "STOP! ...Please."

    They have the DR and fast healing for the Miko scene, along with immunity to crits and sneak attack.

    Could cast earthquake I guess. never mind this one, earthquake in 3.5 is a cleric spell.

    As an epic creature with spellcasting it could've been on the astral at some point in its former life.

    Would explain why he's attracting roaches, assuming that wasn't just a joke.

    Only issues I see are:

    1. They're not born in the usual sense... But MITD could be remembering who they once were when they spoke of their father, or something.
    Edit: even weirder thought, or a worm that walks could have cast some sort of epic spell that caused it to procreate another worm that walks.

    2. A sorcerer or wizard is highly unlikely to have the strength score necessary to punch another person through a stone wall, but it's not entirely impossible and could explain the meaning of fine line.(assuming it means anything) If the wizard/sorcerer he was in life was an otherwise unremarkable human that just so happened to have a huge strength score...

    3. A strict reading of no discernible anatomy would mean they don't technically have eyes or a mouth, but I've seen some depictions where they have what looks like them.
    Last edited by JennTora; 2020-08-12 at 07:18 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #435
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    What is that? An insect group mind?

  16. - Top - End - #436
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    What is that? An insect group mind?
    Sort of, as I understand it. But it's not a natural one, but a sort of alternative to lichdom. Instead of becoming an undead, you become a hive mind of worms. And like lichdom, in game terms, it is a template to put on top of a powerful spellcaster.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Corwin Icewolf View Post
    It's a bizarre thought, but... Could he be an amnesiac worm that walks?

    I mean, they have spellcasting and it would explain how he understood the half a ritual just by looking at it.

    They at least have the potential to know how to cast teleport.

    They know the languages they knew but rarely speak so it would be surprising to hear them speak common.

    They're made up of thousands of insects. Explains the circus scene.

    They have frightful presence so that would explain "STOP! ...Please."

    They have the DR and fast healing for the Miko scene, along with immunity to crits and sneak attack.

    Could cast earthquake I guess. never mind this one, earthquake in 3.5 is a cleric spell.

    As an epic creature with spellcasting it could've been on the astral at some point in its former life.

    Would explain why he's attracting roaches, assuming that wasn't just a joke.

    Only issues I see are:

    1. They're not born in the usual sense... But MITD could be remembering who they once were when they spoke of their father, or something.
    Edit: even weirder thought, or a worm that walks could have cast some sort of epic spell that caused it to procreate another worm that walks.

    2. A sorcerer or wizard is highly unlikely to have the strength score necessary to punch another person through a stone wall, but it's not entirely impossible and could explain the meaning of fine line.(assuming it means anything) If the wizard/sorcerer he was in life was an otherwise unremarkable human that just so happened to have a huge strength score...

    3. A strict reading of no discernible anatomy would mean they don't technically have eyes or a mouth, but I've seen some depictions where they have what looks like them.
    The big one you're missing is that a Worm that Walks does not have age categories and the people who captured it clearly marked it as an adolescent of its species.

  18. - Top - End - #438
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    I have updated my signature to compensate.


    Beware thy missing Oxford commas!
    Yes, speaking of this:
    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth, a character from another comic, and the protean."
    vs
    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth, a character from another comic and the protean."
    Oxford commas: sometimes, they increase ambiguity.
    (I am not suggesting those three are the actual best fits - the example just works best with a list of three)
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Razade View Post
    the people who captured it clearly marked it as an adolescent of its species.
    Sorry what? I don't think the dialog in SoD p. 50 says that.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Sorry what? I don't think the dialog in SoD p. 50 says that.
    Not the SBGH, no, but the general feeling behind that is correct - Oona certainly strongly implies that MitD is an adolescent with her comment that he is not full-grown.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-08-14 at 01:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  21. - Top - End - #441
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not the SBGH, no, but the general feeling behind that is correct - Oona certainly strongly implies that MitD is an adolescent with her comment that he is not full-grown.
    I have the general feeling is that he's a child below adolescence. He behaves childish, wants a secret club that girls can't join, breaks his toys, throws an earthquake tantrum to get more toys, wants to bet with monopoly money. Oh, and he wants to conform to adults. Adolescents rebel against their adult guardians. But I wouldn't give too much certainty to this, because the MitD may be a creature with development stages unfamiliar to us and raised in an unusual environment.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-08-14 at 06:05 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Baine View Post
    I'd like to put my vote down for Protean, please.

    What's a Xenocrysth, by the way? My attempts at googling it have been unenlightening.
    It’s based on a 3rd party expansion on the dream realm. A large part of that expansion relies on a conceit that in the future a psionic god is killed and this creates something which then uses the dream realm to travel back in time to make sure that betrayal happens. The art is like a yuanti with 2 arms and crystal bludgeon tail
    Edit - ninjad
    Edit 2 - with regards to the slaad: the problem with that is that almost any slaad wouldn’t balk at eating babies. They are carnivorous and notorious for eating sentient beings. Moreover I can’t see a slaad being influenced by ochul to be more lawful in the way MitD seems to.
    Last edited by mjasghar; 2020-08-14 at 07:08 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #443
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    I have the general feeling is that he's a child below adolescence. He behaves childish, wants a secret club that girls can't join, breaks his toys, throws an earthquake tantrum to get more toys, wants to bet with monopoly money. Oh, and he wants to conform to adults. Adolescents rebel against their adult guardians. But I wouldn't give too much certainty to this, because the MitD may be a creature with development stages unfamiliar to us and raised in an unusual environment.
    Yeah, I agree with this. There's also the tea party, which is even its own trope apparently.

    Quote Originally Posted by TV Tropes
    What it boils down to is that almost nobody older than a year or two beyond the child in question ever goes to play tea party willingly and must be coaxed, coerced, blackmailed or forced into it one way or another.
    Of course, MiTD could simply be immature for his age. I guess a lot of it depends on how much weight you give to his reaction to watching dwarf sex through the crystal ball (comic #82). If I recall correctly that's the main scene that makes him an immature adolescent rather than simply a child, though there are other bits and pieces (e.g. Rich being opposed to children having stats).
    Last edited by catagent101; 2020-08-14 at 07:18 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by catagent101 View Post
    Yeah, I agree with this. There's also the tea party, which is even its own trope apparently.
    I gave up trying to interpret the tea party. I claimed that it's a girl's game, and so the MitD does not clearly behave as a boy but is sending mixed signals, but a previous thread talked me off of that.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Yes, speaking of this:
    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth, a character from another comic, and the protean."
    vs
    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth, a character from another comic and the protean."
    Oxford commas: sometimes, they increase ambiguity.
    Then you should use dashes

    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth - a character from another comic - and the protean."

    vs

    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth, a character from another comic, and the protean."

    Parentheses also work.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    Then you should use dashes

    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth - a character from another comic - and the protean."

    vs

    "The current best fits are the Xenocrysth, a character from another comic, and the protean."

    Parentheses also work.
    ...no, see, the Xenocrysth is not a character from another comic. The dashes would be worse, going from "ambiguous" to "clearly saying the incorrect thing".
    Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-08-15 at 04:16 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    ...no, see, the Xenocrysth is not a character from another comic. The dashes would be worse, going from "ambiguous" to "clearly saying the incorrect thing".
    Not to mention defeating the purpose of demonstrating a situation in which the oxford comma introduces ambiguity, although I suppose Quartz did demonstrate the problem.

    Just in case it needs to be spelled out: I do not have a problem with the Oxford comma per se - only with the idea that the Oxford comma is superior to omitting it. Both uses can increase ambiguity in certain circumstances.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-08-15 at 08:45 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    I am not as sold on xenocrysth as I want to be due to the psionics issues, but there is something about it that makes me really want it to be that. Maybe part of it is the mental image of that thing hosting a tea party.
    Last edited by Ariko; 2020-08-15 at 08:30 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not to mention defeating the purpose of demonstrating a situation in which the oxford comma introduces ambiguity, although I suppose Quartz did demonstrate the problem.

    Just in case it needs to be spelled out: I do not have a problem with the Oxford comma per se - only with the idea that the Oxford comma is superior to the serial comma. Both can increase ambiguity in certain circumstances.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Frankly, I only use the Cambridge comma.
    What, and no love for the Harvard comma?
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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