MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Peelee]

What, and no love for the Harvard comma?

If you want to go across the pond, then sure. Definitely better than that dirty Yale comma, which is little more than an aborted semicolon.

[Ruck]

What, and no love for the Harvard comma?

If you want to go across the pond, then sure. Definitely better than that dirty Yale comma, which is little more than an aborted semicolon.

Those boorish Yanks and their nouveau intelligente!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Random suggestion for the first post.

A surprising number of entries mention MitD's canon inability to animate dead without taking five levels of cleric (or, presumably, seven of sorcerer). However, the comic where Redcloak says this isn't listed in the list of things we know about the MitD. This seems like an oversight, probably worth correcting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Random suggestion for the first post.

A surprising number of entries mention MitD's canon inability to animate dead without taking five levels of cleric (or, presumably, seven of sorcerer). However, the comic where Redcloak says this isn't listed in the list of things we know about the MitD. This seems like an oversight, probably worth correcting.

See section 2b - Raising undead

GW

[3Power]

A surprising number of entries mention MitD's canon inability to animate dead without taking five levels of cleric (or, presumably, seven of sorcerer).

Fan theories aren't canon. "Theorectical" or "potential" are the words you're looking for there.

[Squire Doodad]

Fan theories aren't canon. "Theorectical" or "potential" are the words you're looking for there.

It's directly brought up in-comic. Appending "apparent" to it might help, but it's not a fan theory unless RC is the fan.

UNRELATED, BUT IMPORTANT:

@Greywolf

Some of the older sites you have links to in the first page appear to have been taken down and some are currently containing viruses.
dndtools. eu (the Wreck Earth link under the 2b Earth Cracking) attempted a redirect virus on my computer. My antivirus caught it, but this is worrisome.
Can anyone safely check the links, and on the working-but-nearing-decrepit ones maybe catch what the text is supposed to be and bring it here?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

@Greywolf

Some of the older sites you have links to in the first page appear to have been taken down and some are currently containing viruses.

I've removed the dndtools link. Found another one in .org, but I have no safe way to check if that too would attempt to download anything. I am wary of just taking the text, since it is potentially copyrighted.

If any other link is similarly tainted, by all means let me know.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

It's directly brought up in-comic. Appending "apparent" to it might help, but it's not a fan theory unless RC is the fan.

Redcloak canonically voiced his incredulity of the MiTD being able to animate dead. That does not make MiTD canonically unable to do so.

[Squire Doodad]

Redcloak canonically voiced his incredulity of the MiTD being able to animate dead. That does not make MiTD canonically unable to do so.

Hm, you do have an important distinction there. This does begin to go into "is MitD guessable if we assume people in-comic are lying/if so by how much" territory though, so perhaps we should put this aside and go to a different discussion.
I'd rather not retread old ground that we've already talked our way through, after all.

[Keltest]

Absent any actual evidence from the comic that redcloak is mistaken about the mind's identity or powers, I consider 3powers objection to be without merit. Every indication is that redcloak is correct.

[Squire Doodad]

Absent any actual evidence from the comic that redcloak is mistaken about the mind's identity or powers, I consider 3powers objection to be without merit. Every indication is that redcloak is correct.

We've already discussed this like 3 times can we move on to something else
Anything about the Xenocrysth we might have missed?

[3Power]

Absent any actual evidence from the comic that redcloak is mistaken about the mind's identity or powers, I consider 3powers objection to be without merit. Every indication is that redcloak is correct.

Absent any actual evidence from the comic that Redcloak possesses knowledge of the full extent of MiTD's powers, I consider Keltest's objection to be without merit. Every indication is that Redcloak cares not one whit about the MITD beyond his use as a meatstick.

We've already discussed this like 3 times can we move on to something else

Personally, I was hoping to hear everyone's thoughts on the exclamation point.

[Keltest]

Absent any actual evidence from the comic that Redcloak possesses knowledge of the full extent of MiTD's powers, I consider Keltest's objection to be without merit. Every indication is that Redcloak cares not one whit about the MITD beyond his use as a meatstick.

Personally, I was hoping to hear everyone's thoughts on the exclamation point.

Do you not think that the MITD's capabilities directly impact his ability to be used as a meat stick? To say nothing that as the one making the claim, the onus of proof is on you.

[Ruck]

Do you not think that the MITD's capabilities directly impact his ability to be used as a meat stick? To say nothing that as the one making the claim, the onus of proof is on you.

We have loads of evidence that not only is Redcloak very well-read and -versed in Monster Manuals and knowledge of creatures in this various world, he specifically says he knows what MITD is, and that indicates he knows just how powerful MITD is and what he is capable of (and presumably what he isn't capable of).

But this would contradict 3Power's theory that MITD is a Ha-Naga, which the entirety of the argument is "3Power really really wants the MITD to be a Ha-Naga," so he ignores it.

[3Power]

Do you not think that the MITD's capabilities directly impact his ability to be used as a meat stick? To say nothing that as the one making the claim, the onus of proof is on you.

I'm a little confused as to how you can claim one thing, I can claim a different thing, and yet only I am expected to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt for it to be accepted as a possibility.

Also, GreatWyrmGold made the claim.

EDIT:

We have loads of evidence that not only is Redcloak very well-read

In chemistry.

and -versed in Monster Manuals

He owns three that he had to reference.

and knowledge of creatures in this various world

Citation needed.

he specifically says he knows what MITD is, and that indicates he knows just how powerful MITD is and what he is capable of

Correction, he says "you could kill them all if you wanted."

(and presumably what he isn't capable of).

If you have to use the word presumably, it probably isn't cold hard fact.

Y'know, much in the vein of last time with the 5 levels in cleric I decided to take this time to actually go back to the book and read exactly what was written in the comic where redcloak made his pitch to MITD. Let's take a look.

"I don't understand. I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted."
---
"Look I'm new in the area, and I'm trying to get a little something together. How would you like to come work for me?
Doing what?
Being scary mostly. Maybe some fighting.
---
Are you kidding? You should know why. If I have a powerful creature like that on my side, it'll be easy to get the Plan jump started.

So three things are established here, canonically.
1. Redclaok states that he knows the name of the creature's species. (Which is later contradicted by the dwarf-mating comic, but y'know, first 100 strips.)
2. Redcloak states that he knows that MiTD is powerful.
3. Redcloak states that he intends to use him mostly for standing around looking scary and maybe some fighting.
No mention of how teleportation or earthquakes could be of great use, much like they could have back in the battle for Azure City, except at this point Redcloak doesn't even have the excuse of knowing the MiTD fails at everything to fall back to. The first meeting, the one that drags MiTD into the plot and from that point to years later we don't see redcloak treat MiTD as anything other than a meat-stick.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But this would contradict 3Power's theory that MITD is a Ha-Naga, which the entirety of the argument is "3Power really really wants the MITD to be a Ha-Naga," so he ignores it.

Especially noticeable since he is not similarly skeptical about Oona, despite her not having access to monster manuals nor a history of knowing a lot about everything. But not only is she not similarly accused of not being trustworthy, we must in fact take her words as ironclad proof that MitD's species must be Colossal.

Go figure.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I'm a little confused as to how you can claim one thing, I can claim a different thing, and yet only I am expected to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt for it to be accepted as a possibility.

Also, GreatWyrmGold made the claim.

As was pointed out in the post above yours, our stance has a significant amount of evidence, which you have so far failed to respond to with anything more well founded than "but what if its wrong?"

Well, what if it isn't wrong?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As was pointed out in the post above yours, our stance has a significant amount of evidence, which you have so far failed to respond to with anything more well founded than "but what if its wrong?"

Well, what if it isn't wrong?

I'm also going to point out that GreatWyrmGold did not make any such "claim", only requested the appropriate comic be linked in the OP (presumably having failed to find it due to it being listed as "raise" rather than "animate" undead).

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

EDIT above for anyone that missed it.

Especially noticeable since he is not similarly skeptical about Oona, despite she not having access to monster manuals nor a history of knowing a lot about everything. But not only is she not similarly accused of not being trustworthy, we must in fact take her words as ironclad proof that MitD's species must be Colossal.

Go figure.

Grey Wolf

A. Oona is not being incredulously sarcastic in her relevant scene.
B. Oona is a beastmaster and thus is working within in her area of expertise.
C. Nothing Oona says actually proves she knows the MiTD's full capabilities either, as again, she has never referenced his teleporting or earthquakes, and much like redcloak, her descriptions have been tied to the physical.
D. Must be colossal != bigger than he is portrayed.

As was pointed out in the post above yours, our stance has a significant amount of evidence, which you have so far failed to respond to with anything more well founded than "but what if its wrong?"

You have a significant amount of circumstantial evidence. "He's good at chemistry, owns three monster books and knows the name of MitD's species, obviously this means he knows that he can cast wish and can't cast animate dead too." Also despite your claims I've cited several comics that highlight Redcloak's indifference towards the Mitd.

I'm also going to point out that GreatWyrmGold did not make any such "claim", only requested the appropriate comic be linked in the OP (presumably having failed to find it due to it being listed as "raise" rather than "animate" undead)
Grey Wolf

A claim made in passing is still a claim.

[Keltest]

EDIT above for anyone that missed it.


A. Oona is not being incredulously sarcastic in her relevant scene.
B. Oona is a beastmaster and thus is working within in her area of expertise.
C. Nothing Oona says actually proves she knows the MiTD's full capabilities either, as again, she has never referenced his teleporting or earthquakes, and much like redcloak, her descriptions have been tied to the physical.
D. Must be colossal != bigger than he is portrayed.

You have a significant amount of circumstantial evidence. "He's good at chemistry, owns three monster books and knows the name of MitD's species, obviously this means he knows that he can cast wish and can't cast animate dead too." Also despite your claims I've cited several comics that highlight Redcloak's indifference towards the Mitd.


A claim made in passing is still a claim.

Do you dispute that he has explicitly stated that he knows what the MITD is? Do you dispute that he has access to materials which specifically and explicitly list out the capabilities of monsters? Do you dispute that he has used such materials in the past when selecting minions?

[3Power]

Do you dispute that he has explicitly stated that he knows what the MITD is? Do you dispute that he has access to materials which specifically and explicitly list out the capabilities of monsters? Do you dispute that he has used such materials in the past when selecting minions?

No, No, and No*.
* If you count creating as selecting. There's no actual evidence that he used them as a recruiting tool beyond dead-raising.

Do you dispute that Redcloak has never once in the comic referenced MiTD's ability to Earthquake or "Escape," even when said abilities would seem like they would be useful?

Do you dispute that the primary attitudes taken towards MiTD by Redcloak throughout the comic's history consist of annoyance, indifference and anger?

Do you dispute that knowing the name of a creature is not the same as having complete and perfect knowledge of everything they are capable of?

[Keltest]

No, No, and No*.
* If you count creating as selecting. There's no actual evidence that he used them as a recruiting tool beyond dead-raising.

Do you dispute that Redcloak has never once in the comic referenced MiTD's ability to Earthquake or "Escape," even when said abilities would seem like they would be useful?

Do you dispute that the primary attitudes taken towards MiTD by Redcloak throughout the comic's history consist of annoyance, indifference and anger?

Do you dispute that knowing the name of a creature is not the same as having complete and perfect knowledge of everything they are capable of?

No, no and yes. Redcloak has the monster manuals for this world. If he knows what the MITD is, he can just look up his abilities..

Also, Redcloak and Xykon early on would regularly draw a contrast between the potential power of the MITD and how much use they could actually realistically get out of him. Xykon also, for some reason, does not want the MITD to be revealing himself, which precludes using him to his full potential.

[Qwertystop]

No, no and yes. Redcloak has the monster manuals for this world. If he knows what the MITD is, he can just look up his abilities..

Also, Redcloak and Xykon early on would regularly draw a contrast between the potential power of the MITD and how much use they could actually realistically get out of him. Xykon also, for some reason, does not want the MITD to be revealing himself, which precludes using him to his full potential.

Additional note: MitD's ability to Earthquake would be of fairly low use, actually. First they were in an underground dungeon, which would have collapsed on their heads in a quake and possibly damaged the Gate (and also, MitD was supposed to help in that but got confused, so the fact that he didn't help is not Redcloak's fault). Then they were climbing a library tower, which might have collapsed and damaged the book they were looking for, and also at least some of the monsters didn't touch the floor anyway. Then they were in a scrying tower and Xykon was deliberately leaving it standing to not raise alarms (and because Xykon wanted Miko to escape). Then they were in an assault on Azure City's walls, and while MitD might have been able to crack them with a quake, it would also have significantly harmed the allied hobgoblin troops, which might not be practical even before Redcloak started to care about them as more than just chaff. Then they were holding Azure City, and MitD wasn't present for any actual fights there. And now they're searching for Kraagor's Gate, and that's another "cave containing things we don't want to break or lose", with the additional note that we haven't actually seen what goes on in there so MitD might be doing any number of things. And Redcloak has Earthquake now too.

As for escaping – we don't know how reliable or unreliable the ability is. For example, if the "it's a Teleport and the Dimensional Anchor kept MitD behind" theory is correct, either it has to be for something MitD needs to go along for, or someone else still needs to use the spell slot for Dimensional Anchor. And also you need a reason Xykon isn't just transporting all of them, he's probably got Greater Teleport and is less likely to get distracted and send everyone to the wrong place. If it's something else... well, depends on the something else, but the "MitD might just get distracted and send them to the wrong place" bit still holds. As does the "Xykon and Redcloak are both powerful casters who are probably capable of whatever transportation is needed" thing.

[3Power]

No, no and yes. Redcloak has the monster manuals for this world. If he knows what the MITD is, he can just look up his abilities..

We know the identity of three specific sourcebooks that he owns and it's suggested he hasn't read all of them. This is circumstantial evidence.

[Mightymosy]

Actually an interesting thought... If RC knows MitD can cast Earthquake/Teleport/Wish or whatever he does in those scenes, I would think he, the strategic mind of Team Evil, MUST have considered these abilities in his plan for conquering Azure City.

In other words, since he doesn't utilise them, one might think this points to him NOT knowing these abilities.

BUT there is one breaking argument here: Xykon wants to use MitD in a way that reveals his special abilities in the climax only, and it is very possible RC needs to accept that.
The demon roaches don't feel they need to oblige Xykon, thus they convince him to "earthquake".
And don't they also seem to know about the escape, yet don't bother to tell Xykon?

I think the scenes are set up to say that RC thinks he knows pretty well what MitD is and what he can do.
One way around that might be that MitD appears differently to everyone, and thus RC is actually mistaken about him, yet that didn't actually fit to any monster yet, unfortunately.

[Keltest]

We know the identity of three specific sourcebooks that he owns and it's suggested he hasn't read all of them. This is circumstantial evidence.

Redcloak explicitly says that he knows what the MITD is and what it can do. The "circumstantial" evidence lends credence to this and explains how he would know this. You STILL dont have anything to indicate that he is mistaken. Unless your next response contains evidence on that front, im going to take it as an admission that you dont have any.

[Squire Doodad]

As does the "Xykon and Redcloak are both powerful casters who are probably capable of whatever transportation is needed" thing.

That's a good point, MitD's kind may be beyond fearsome in combat, but things like a finicky teleport and quakes aren't as essential to a team that consists of an Epic level Sorcerer and a very high level Cleric. Hence leading to him being sidelined for a lot of the time, before they decided he was pathetic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's a good point, MitD's kind may be beyond fearsome in combat, but things like a finicky teleport and quakes aren't as essential to a team that consists of an Epic level Sorcerer and a very high level Cleric. Hence leading to him being sidelined for a lot of the time, before they decided he was pathetic.

Indeed. The one thing MitD brings to the team that no-one else does is his strength. Sure, even if he does have access to magic-like abilities, RC and Xykon both have access to those as well, and trust themselves more than they trust MitD. It is therefore not surprising that RC doesn't bother to try to exploit that aspect of MitD. First, obviously, because MitD is not reliable. But even if he was, RC can simply cast the SLA himself. Which is not to say RC wouldn't realise MitD did teleport someone if he did it in his presence.

If, on the other hand, massive, undirectable strength is called for, neither RC nor Xykon can provide it, and that's the kind of ace in the hole Xykon might be thinking of: when an enemy team has prepared to battle magic-heavy, combat-light team, he can reveal that he has a combat-heavy member they didn't know about waiting in the shadows, and maybe turn the combat around.

Grey Wolf

[3Power]

Redcloak explicitly says that he knows what the MITD is and what it can do.

No

"I don't understand. I know what you are. You could kill them all if you wanted."

The "circumstantial" evidence lends credence to this and explains how he would know this. You STILL dont have anything to indicate that he is mistaken. Unless your next response contains evidence on that front, im going to take it as an admission that you dont have any.

There is no conclusive evidence one way or the other and I'm not going to pretend there is. If you are trying to claim that Redcloak cannot be mistaken about the MiTD and are using that as an excuse to disqualify creatures, it's on you to prove that.

[Jaziggy]

Indeed. The one thing MitD brings to the team that no-one else does is his strength. Sure, even if he does have access to magic-like abilities, RC and Xykon both have access to those as well, and trust themselves more than they trust MitD. It is therefore not surprising that RC doesn't bother to try to exploit that aspect of MitD. First, obviously, because MitD is not reliable. But even if he was, RC can simply cast the SLA himself. Which is not to say RC wouldn't realise MitD did teleport someone if he did it in his presence.

If, on the other hand, massive, undirectable strength is called for, neither RC nor Xykon can provide it, and that's the kind of ace in the hole Xykon might be thinking of: when an enemy team has prepared to battle magic-heavy, combat-light team, he can reveal that he has a combat-heavy member they didn't know about waiting in the shadows, and maybe turn the combat around.

Grey Wolf

I really expect MiTD to be a heavy for these reasons. He thinks of himself as a big dumb brute, they think of him as a big dumb brute. O'chul thinks he has hidden depths, but implied in that assessment is that on the surface he seems like a big dumb brute.

It also makes sense for the world meta- it's a thematically balanced trio of foes in a world that tends to adhere to thematic and structural balance that is a calling card of D&D. An evil D&D trio usually has a tank, a support caster, and a damage dealer. We have the support caster and the damage dealer as known quantities; in the OOTS world that third mystery being will probably fill the tank slot because it is tidy storytelling, and the OOTS world is a very tidy one.

None of this is really 'evidence' in the sense this forum typically requires. It doesn't actually rule out say the amnesiac sorcerer worm that walks (just because it's the last thing suggested) who maybe *could* do all the things MiTD does. It would just be a surprising deviation from some of the core features of the story, the way characters treat him, and the world it takes place in if he's not a physical-combat-oriented opponent with a handful of innate spell-like abilities.