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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    You did. And if you can't answer the second part, not sure anyone can help you.
    lol, what an epic-level misunderstanding! The post you have quoted LITERALLY says:
    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    the FBS criterion for the Tower Scene is already written the way I'd have done it!
    I'm being perfectly coherent: I said I originally wanted to suggest modifying the STR requirement (in order for Rule #2 to become what I think is the correct and optimal way to put it), then just to make sure, before suggesting any change, I went back to check what the exact actual requirements were, and realized that Rule #2 was already written in what I think is the correct and optimal way to put it. Therefore, when later, some person suggests that Rule #2 isn't already written in what lio45 thinks is the correct and optimal way to put it, clearly, lio45 will react and object to what that person is saying, since he's on record saying he thinks Rule #2 is perfect as it is.

    I find it hard to understand how anyone can read the post you quoted and come to any other conclusion than "lio45 obviously doesn't see the point of F, since what F asks for is in fact ALREADY the way Rule #2 is written; therefore Rule #2 as currently written is absolutely correct according to him."

    Basically: "I wanted to suggest X, because X is good IMO, but then I double-checked and realized X is already how things are."

    And then later: "Huh, someone actually suggested X? So weird (and pointless), given that X is already how things are! And since that's good, no need for a change there. X is the correct way!"

    Exactly the behavior you'd expect from someone perfectly logically consistent at all times.



    So, in summary: if from my post where I say I don't see what would be the point of F, you went and concluded we should add F to the list of the things to vote on, then obviously, you can remove F whenever you want.




    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I should have E before F, in the unlikely event that it winds up mattering.
    F shouldn't even exist, as explained above. (My post against F ended up spawning F on the voting list, somehow.) I guess we can simply remove it, unless that's against the voting rules...? (In which case, no one should vote for it - as I said earlier, if someone does, then I'm really interested in hearing why that person thinks Current FBS Rule #2 isn't perfect as it is!)

    (I almost voted !(F, Z) but only picked !Z because it was just cleaner.)


    I do agree that E if it passes would generate a lot of voting. I'm really not a fan. (Still think it's marginally better than Z though.)
    Last edited by lio45; 2020-07-17 at 06:44 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Missed the first page, but oh well.

    This an alternate list of MitD contenders to the FBS/Proposed Ideas list that exists in the OP. This list does not contain any creatures past the cut-off date, nor any non-D&D creatures, including those from call of cthulu, pathfinder, or homebrew. It also does not take Creature Size into account, as it has been suggested on multiple occasions that the MitD is smaller than it usually would be.

    Spoiler: Vetted Candidates
    Show

    Spoiler: Glabrezu
    Show
    Has wish 1/month
    Can only grant other peoples' wishes and they have to bring suffering to the world.
    No Earthquake
    31 STR
    Ugly with high charisma.
    Telepathy rules a little unclear, but doesn't appear to be able to speak common.
    Can speak other languages
    Demons don't have children and parents.
    Is an embodiment of pure evil. (Always Chaotic Evil)
    CR weaker than the order, not something Xykon would consider powerful.
    Damage Reduction
    Two eyes.
    Not Really beast like

    Spoiler: Hagunemnon(Protean)
    Show
    No wish.
    Access to greater teleport, but only via complicated borrowing of other creatures' extraordinary abilities
    No Earthquake, but does have very high strength.
    53 STR
    Ugly with high CHA
    By default, doesn't have two eyes. Constantly maintaining the same form goes against fluff and stretches believability.
    Speak and understand all languages, but it's default language is incomprehensible to non-proteans.
    Parents and Children
    Mind reading might explain some knowledge, but no foreshadowing of mind-reading ability.
    Has DR
    Hard to consider beastlike unless it's holding it's form that way.
    High CR
    Always Chaotic Neutral

    Spoiler: White/Black Slaad
    Show
    36/42 STR
    No wish, but has greater teleport.
    No Earthquake
    Speaks language, including common.
    Can be mind controlled
    Ugly with high CHA
    In oots-verse at least, has parent/children.
    Would have to be very old.
    Slaad in general have appeared elsewhere in OOTS, and the eyes don't match up.
    Damage Reduction
    Beastlike (Monstrous Frog)
    High CR
    Always/Usually Chaotic Neutral

    Spoiler: Uvuudaum
    Show
    39 STR
    No wish, but has greater teleport.
    No Earthquake
    Ugly with high CHA
    Speaks telepathically.
    No eyes or mouth
    Spellcraft and various Knowledge ranks.
    Confusion aura might tie into circus scene.
    Damage Reduction
    Has the general shape of a beast, even though its legs are arms.
    Parent/Child?
    High CR
    Usually Neutral Evil

    Spoiler: Ha-naga
    Show
    27 STR
    Wish
    Earthquake
    Horrifying abberation with beautiful human face.
    Not listed as speaking any language.
    Lack of arms suggests difficulty pulling.
    Knowledge(Arcana/Religion/History) and Spellcraft ranks.
    Damage Reduction
    Two eyes
    Beast-like
    High CR
    Usually Chaotic Evil

    Spoiler: Grey Linnorm
    Show

    High CR
    Access to Miracle
    Earthquake
    24 Strength but can launch people 70 feet.
    Ugly with semi-high CHA (17)
    Fluff says young ones are rarely seen and the species might be dying out.
    Has spellcraft and Arcana ranks.
    USUALLY chaotic evil.
    Dragon evolutionary offshoot, so Beast-like.
    Two eyes
    Doesn't speak common.
    Speaks Infernal and Draconic

    Spoiler: Under Evaluation
    Show

    Anaxim (Construct, No teleportation, speaks common)
    Astral Dreadnaught (Eyes are wrong, no teleportation)
    Atropal (Doesn't eat or Sleep)
    Barghest(Dimension door is highest possible teleportation)
    Braxat (CR 9, only dimension door)
    Cerebrilith (SR)
    Corpse Tearer Linnorm (MM2 141)
    Dao (MoP)
    True Dragon (SRD)
    Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
    Dread Linnorm (MM2 141)
    Dream Larva (SRD or ELH 161)
    Efreet (SRD)
    Epic Dragon (SRD or ELH 181)
    Fiendwurm (MM2 99) (Borderline No Escape Explanation)
    Formian Myrmarch (SRD)
    Genie/Djinn (SRD or MM 114)
    Ghour (MoF)
    Gibbering Orb (SRD or ELH 191) (Borderline No Escape Explanation)
    Gloom (SRD)(Borderline No Escape Explanation)
    Grey Slaad (MM 231)
    Guardinal, Leonal (SRD)
    Half-Giant (SRD or XPH 200)
    Hellfire Wyrm (MM2 125)
    Hoary Hunter (SRD or ELH 197)
    Hunefer(SRD)
    (Under Construction)

    Spoiler: Monsters with Major Issues
    Show
    Spoiler: Monsters with no inherent Escape Scene explanation besides magic items and HD/class levels
    Show

    Aboleth Mage (SRD)
    Brachyurus (SRD)
    Brood Keeper (MM3)
    Centaur (SRD)
    Chichimec (SRD)
    Couatl (SRD)
    Disenchanter (FF)
    Displacer Beast (MM 60)
    Earth Elemental (SRD or MM 97)
    Fhoimoren Giant (?)
    Fihyr, Greater (MM2)
    Gelatinous Cube (SRD)
    Geriviar(MM3)
    Gray Render (SRD or MM 138)
    Hollyphant(BoED)
    Illithid (MM)
    (Under Construction)

    Spoiler: Published too late to be MitD
    Show
    Athasian Nightmare Beast (year late, never officially released. Exists only on defunct forums.)
    Alhoon (Lords of Madness is too late.)
    Angel of Decay (Libris Mortis is too late)
    Astral Dragon (Dragon 344 is too late)
    Brainstealer Dragon (Dragon 337)
    Concordant Killer (MM4)
    Ephemeral Hangman (ToM 161)
    Essence Reaver (?)
    Goristro(FC1)
    Grootslang(5e?)
    (Under Construction)

    Spoiler: Specific D&D/OOTS related entities
    Show

    Aurumach Rilmani
    Bauhei
    Crystalle
    Giant Snowman
    Girard (Member of the Order of the Scribble)
    Hephaestus
    (Under Construction)

    Spoiler: 3rd edition Source Needed
    Show
    Andeloid
    Baku
    Black Troll
    Cherub
    Chiyou (Chinese mythical figure, Has D&D stats?)
    Coeurl
    Draknor
    Draeden
    Enveloper (1e)
    General Ox
    Giant Space Hamster
    (Under Construction)


    In addition, this is a list of all official D&D 3rd edition products that the MitD could be hiding in. Bolded entries have a monster section.
    Spoiler: Strip 100 came out Sep 2, 2004, so no creature first published after that time can be considered.
    Show

    Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I July 2, 2000
    Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II September 1, 2000
    Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III October 1, 2000
    Monster Manual II September 1, 2002
    Player's Handbook: Core Rulebook I v.3.5 July 1, 2003
    Dungeon Master's Guide: Core Rulebook II v.3.5 July 1, 2003
    Monster Manual: Core Rulebook III v.3.5 July 1, 2003
    Monster Manual III April 1, 2003

    Arms and Equipment Guide March 1, 2003 Mounts and Transport Creatures. Includes a few CR 20 but none fit.
    Book of Challenges: Dungeon Rooms, Puzzles, and Traps June 1, 2002
    Book of Exalted Deeds October 1, 2003
    Book of Vile Darkness October 1, 2002
    Complete Divine May 1, 2004 (Bogun only, doesn't fit.)
    Complete Warrior December 1, 2003
    Defenders of the Faith May 1, 2001
    Deities and Demigods February 1, 2002 Olympian, Egyptian, and Asgardian Monsters only, none fit.
    Draconomicon November 1, 2003
    Enemies and Allies October 1, 2001 - You'd think so, but no. Just standard monsters with class levels.
    Epic Level Handbook July 1, 2002
    Expanded Psionics Handbook April 1, 2004
    Fiend Folio April 1, 2003
    Ghostwalk June 1, 2003 None fit.
    Hero Builder's Guidebook December 1, 2000
    Manual of the Planes September 1, 2001
    Masters of the Wild February 1, 2002 Dire and Legendary animals, none fit.
    Miniatures Handbook October 1, 2003
    Oriental Adventures October 1, 2001
    Planar Handbook July 1, 2004
    Psionics Handbook March 1, 2001
    Races of Stone August 1, 2004 192 Races only, none fit.
    Savage Species February 1, 2003 Small section, most of this is templates and monster classes (as well as prestiege classes for monsters.
    Song and Silence December 1, 2001
    Stronghold Builder's Guidebook May 1, 2002
    Sword and Fist January 1, 2001
    Tome and Blood July 1, 2001
    Unearthed Arcana February 1, 2004 Races only, none fit.

    Faerun:
    Faiths and Pantheons May 2002
    Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2001
    Lords of Darkness 2001
    Magic of Faerûn 2001 Very few
    Monsters of Faerûn 2001
    Player's Guide to Faerûn March 2004
    Races of Faerûn March 2003 A few.
    Serpent Kingdoms July 2004
    Silver Marches 2002 Very few
    Unapproachable East May 2003
    Underdark October 2003

    Eberron:
    Eberron Campaign Setting June 2004

    Dragonlance:
    Dragonlance Campaign Settling, August 2003
    Bestiary of Krynn, 2004 Revised 2006
    Age of Mortals 2003 (Races only)
    Towers of High Sorcery 2004

    Magazines
    Dragon Magazine: 274-322
    Dungeon Magazine: 82 to 113



    Vote is A -> D-> C -> B -> Z

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Inputting option F) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Medium, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species

    This seems like the only logical form of strength scaling, to me. If MitD has 30+ strength and is Medium, their species is larger than Medium, and strength scaling is applied as a rule, then shouldn't we scale to what strength it would have as a Medium creature? The issue is that it would remove large numbers of candidates, but if that's a problem, then I would rather have strength scaling not be a rule at all than to have an illogical form of it. (List low strength relative to size as a con instead.)

    I also don't believe size should be a hard restriction; it should either be scaled by strength, or not a rule.

    My votes, then, are A > F > !(D, E, Z).
    Last edited by Spirare; 2020-07-17 at 07:56 PM. Reason: option F isn't on the list anymore

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Spoiler: Hagunemnon(Protean)
    Show
    No wish.
    Access to greater teleport, but only via complicated borrowing of other creatures' extraordinary abilities
    No Earthquake
    53 STR
    Ugly with high CHA
    By default, doesn't have two eyes. Constantly maintaining the same form goes against fluff and stretches believability.
    Speak and understand all languages.
    Parents and Children
    Mind reading might explain some knowledge, but no foreshadowing of mind-reading ability.
    Has DR
    Hard to consider beastlike unless it's holding it's form that way.
    High CR
    Always Chaotic Neutral
    As much as the protean has not convinced me, I don't think you're giving it a fair shake here. If Escape can be explained by protean's shapeshifting, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the earthquake could too, if it's not just a function of the large strength, which the protean has. additionally, the fluff does imply that while it can speak all languages, they generally only speak their weird protean language that's hard to recognize as a language, which explains the BGH lines just fine. And If I say a living pile of boiling shapeshifter coming to attack me, I might be inclined to call it a beast.

    Otherwise, your work is really excellent and can be very helpful if A, B, or C win!
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    any(A,F); E; Z; D (this vote has been superceded by another vote in a later post)

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    (My post against F ended up spawning F on the voting list, somehow.) I guess we can simply remove it, unless that's against the voting rules...? (In which case, no one should vote for it - as I said earlier, if someone does, then I'm really interested in hearing why that person thinks Current FBS Rule #2 isn't perfect as it is!)
    The myriad "telekinesis isn't tapping" and references to the Strength threshold that's not even in the FBS post look a heck of a lot like an unspoken FBS criterion; as such, making explicit that it's not such a criterion promotes clarity.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2020-07-17 at 09:12 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #36
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    -snip-
    Honestly, I'd say the way this is set up really feels inconsistent compared to the FBS. Some things have several black marks for the same thing, while others fail to take into account important issues.
    This is my evaluation of portions of your chart, based off of the discussions we have had over the last while. It is not meant to be a disservice to you personally in any way shape or form Void in Arizona and where prohibited
    For instance:
    The Protean shouldn't have both a for not having Wish and also for Greater Teleport being inconsistent (though we do have evidence he has met a creature that can teleport, in the form of a teleporting beetle thing in one of the books); it should just be that the most viable explanations for the Escape scene involve a lucky shapeshift. Meanwhile, we've argued at length and concluded among the majority of us that there's a logical explanation working within MitD and the fluff that means a Protean MitD could maintain 2 eyes, and also that he wouldn't be normally speaking Common. So that'd be a (has an issue, but has an okay solution) on the former and a (no problem at all, a Protean wouldn't be found speaking Common or anything recognizable as a language) on the latter.

    Similarly, matters like the Grey Linnorm's ability to launch people probably merits a , not a boon (though that bit is my own stance, really), and in general the Ha-Naga part completely disregards the size issue (removing the size restriction wouldn't stop size from being an issue) and that STR for a Colossal creature is worthy no matter which way you slice it.

    There's some other things I would dispute, but those are some notable ones.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by MartytheBioGuy View Post
    As much as the protean has not convinced me, I don't think you're giving it a fair shake here.
    Dismissing all the powers that make the Protean special as negative points will do that.

    EDIT: I'm still a little confused about the voting of B and C-- wouldn't a Huge creature need to have STR 46 for an MITD-sized variation to fit the Tower scene, for example? Is that what that means?
    Last edited by Ruck; 2020-07-17 at 08:08 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    any(A,F); E; Z; D

    The myriad "telekinesis isn't tapping" and references to the Strength threshold that's not even in the FBS post look a heck of a lot like an unspoken FBS criterion; as such, making explicit that it's not such a criterion promotes clarity.
    Sure, but the fact that it's possible to debate what constitutes a satisfactory explanation of the Tower Scene has no bearing on my point which is that Rule #2 as written is elegantly generic and that's exactly how it should be: "Any suggested creature needs to have a decently compelling explanation for what's observed in the Tower Scene to qualify as FBS".

    I wouldn't change that wording, it's literally perfect as is (and unarguable, IMO - since it's so general. It would be like trying to disagree with "Any theory, to be considered, needs to be able to explain the observations.")

    Now, if someone wants to argue that a Baby Ha-Naga using telekinesis can constitute a convincing explanation of what happens in the Tower Scene, fine, no problem, I'm all ears.

    In fact, Jasdoif, I'm sure you will be very amused to realize that all the "references to the Strength threshold that's not even in the FBS post" have directly produced some voting options about formally modifying that inexistent Strength threshold! (It's clearly why you're only voting for A and not B nor C, so that won't be news to you...)
    Last edited by lio45; 2020-07-17 at 08:19 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I'm still a little confused about the voting of B and C-- wouldn't a Huge creature need to have STR 46 for an MITD-sized variation to fit the Tower scene, for example? Is that what that means?
    Under F, yes. Under B (which sort of assumes that MitD is a small Large), no, just 38. Under C (which is sort of "current system, but switching from hard size cap to flexible cap with increasing strength"), no, since we already allow Huge with 30 strength.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Lightbulb Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Alright, having gone through section 6 (having relied heavily on the descriptions) there only seem to be two scenes with the MitD sleeping. Page #662 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) and page #49 of SoD. I don't own SoD (yet) so I will have to ask people who do if you can see his eyes there. If so, that's a strike against the MitD being a protean, him needing to be awake in order to hold his form, after all.

    Despite him possibly faking sleeping in #662, I do consider that page to make it slightly less likely, since we can assume that Redcloak, Tsukiko and Xykon have seen him sleeping before and would have noticed his eyes changing. His eyes not changing in #662 would then be a giveaway that he's faking, which none of them seem to pick up on, though to be fair they all had other things on their minds.


    For my vote, decisions, decisions. I'm going to agree that the FBS causes too much trouble and strife. I read all the previous thread's yesterday. Therefore:

    1. (Not quite) E): with the clause mentioned by Crusher that a periodic (or democratically decided) refresher is a must. I'm not going to quibble what form this takes, just that there is one. In fact, since I'd prefer having the FBS to E) without a refresher, it's probably best to call this option F) or G) instead (I can't seem to deduce if F) is taken or not).

    2. Another homebrew. A), but with the caveat that the proposed creature has to plausibly have juvenile versions (aka. not explicitly excluded or have fluff that makes it impossible). So basically replacing FBS condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles". Call it H), or A.2), or whatever. No, I'm not doing this to make your life more complicated, Grey Wolf, even if it has that effect. Sorry.

    3. Any subset of A), B) or C).

    4. Z), just to torpedo D) or E) (as written) with as much power is bestowed on me.


    I'm quite aware that my inventing spree might make me responsible for helping implement my proposed changes should they gain traction. Why do I do this to myself?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    -snip-
    I second this. The protean fits better than described and the (comparatively) low strength of the Ha-naga with it having Colossal size is a disqualifying factor for me, in addition to the problem of staying hidden while slithering and the seeming implication of him having limbs (stomp, holding objects while moving).

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  11. - Top - End - #41
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ... no, since we already allow Huge with 30 strength.

    Grey Wolf
    Jasdoif and I are both wondering where exactly we allow this - it doesn't seem to be an actual requirement.

    Is it just unspoken convention that has traditionally disallowed STR<30 to "satisfy the Tower Scene"?
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Jasdoif and I are both wondering where exactly we allow this - it doesn't seem to be an actual requirement.

    Is it just unspoken convention that has traditionally disallowed STR<30 to "satisfy the Tower Scene"?
    The actual description for the tower scene comes with links to writeups examining what, exactly, would be necessary to get that affect. I assume it comes from there, not really having the ability to comb through them atm.

    Also, i am confused as to why option A has an asterisk on it given that it is a simple removal of one of the FBS requirements, as near as i can tell, while option E, which requires an ill defined new system, does not. The asterisk represents an expectation that people who vote for it come up with whatever it actually requires, yes?
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-07-17 at 08:27 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    1. (Not quite) E): with the clause mentioned by Crusher that a periodic (or democratically decided) refresher is a must. I'm not going to quibble what form this takes, just that there is one. In fact, since I'd prefer having the FBS to E) without a refresher, it's probably best to call this option F) or G) instead (I can't seem to deduce if F) is taken or not).
    Listed it as E, but clarified that E's specific process will be decided later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    2. Another homebrew. A), but with the caveat that the proposed creature has to plausibly have juvenile versions (aka. not explicitly excluded or have fluff that makes it impossible). So basically replacing FBS condition 6) with "Can plausibly have juveniles". Call it H), or A.2), or whatever.
    Listed it both as G and H in two slightly different configurations. Put you down for G. H is just for my own amusement, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    No, I'm not doing this to make your life more complicated, Grey Wolf, even if it has that effect. Sorry.
    It is not. Don't worry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    3. Any subset of A), B) or C).
    I don't consider (A,B,C) to be a subset of itself, for probably all the wrong reasons, so I listed it first, then the subset you requested.
    Changed my mind, since A, B, C are all incompatible with each other, so instead I list just what you said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    4. Z), just to torpedo D) or E) (as written) with as much power is bestowed on me.
    Did that, and then went ahead and added !(D, E), given that seems to be your preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    I'm quite aware that my inventing spree might make me responsible for helping implement my proposed changes should they gain traction. Why do I do this to myself?
    It has happened before. The whole point of delaying the vote was so y'all could give me these things in advance so you wouldn't start at a disadvantage. So this time you only have yourself to blame, I'm afraid.

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Is it just unspoken convention that has traditionally disallowed STR<30 to "satisfy the Tower Scene"?
    Section 1f: MitD's Scores

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Also, i am confused as to why option A has an asterisk on it given that it is a simple removal of one of the FBS requirements, as near as i can tell, while option E, which requires an ill defined new system, does not. The asterisk represents an expectation that people who vote for it come up with whatever it actually requires, yes?
    No, the asterisk indicates that that option triggers my "if you guys vote for this, you better do the hard part of the job" clause
    Voting is binding: if you vote for extra work, be prepared to do the extra work. If extra work is voted for, but no-one does it, the option will be discarded and runner-up will be done instead. Generally, though, I will clearly articulate which options I will expect voters to do if they win, usually on the basis of the effort involved. If I do not say anything, you can assume that I'm happy to implement every option myself.
    I've never had to pull the trigger on this option before now, but I added it back at the very start, because there was a vocal minority asking to divide 3e into a point system where each scene gave a suggestion a point, and then "we" were supposed to tally the points, etc. It look like such a horrendous amount of work that I put in a escape clause that I would be allowed to refuse to do consensus votes that I just could not face. Admittedly, finding all the large monsters that would now be FBS are not quite as bad as that, but it is bad enough I'm giving fair warning that I will NOT be finding them all - I'll expect someone who voted for it to give me the list.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Oh, ok. Its specifically the concern about things that suddenly arent excluded. That makes more sense. Ok then, Danke.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    I do agree that E if it passes would generate a lot of voting. I'm really not a fan. (Still think it's marginally better than Z though.)
    Heh, I said I was willing to do it, but this one was your idea, too!

    Edit - Also... sigh. I’m not sure how to best do it, but I’d like to add “plus either of E or F” to each of my votes, except the vote for Z, of course.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-17 at 08:56 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Also... sigh. I’m not sure how to best do it, but I’d like to add “plus either of E or F” to each of my votes, except the vote for Z, of course.
    Sure, done. But none of those are compatible with one another. E gets rid of FBS, so B & C can't apply to a section we don't have anymore, and F is an alternative to both B and C.

    (Malloon, this is how you give me a headache, if you are still looking into that)

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, the asterisk indicates that that option triggers my "if you guys vote for this, you better do the hard part of the job" clause
    Which is why, for however problematic as some entries are, I was glad to see 3Powers' list.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    F) Replace FBS Condition 6) with a scaling strength scale, starting at 30 for Medium, and adding 8 thereafter due to reduced size of MitD compared to base species
    Reassigned the letter out from under my vote, I see

    So, my vote is now: A ; E; Z; D
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Heh, I said I was willing to do it, but this one was your idea, too!
    Sure :) to be clear, I'm not really a fan of the idea of this thread being in a continuous state of everyone always re-mentioning what we're voting for - something which COULD happen, under SOME of the (bad, IMO) ways of implementing this idea. This is what I had in mind when I replied that.

    I'm perfectly okay with the idea of replacing "the indirect democracy" of us electing FBS Criteria and letting those select the Top X Creatures, by "direct democracy", i.e. we directly elect our Top X Creatures via your list.

    There are pros and cons to each method.

    But something's for sure IMO, if we choose to get rid of FBS and replace that by Crusher's List, then Crusher's List will obviously have to be rebooted once in a while - either linked to real world passage of time (say, once a year) or linked to MitD's appearances (say, rebooted after each series of Team Evil comics, on the moment the comic switches back to showing any other group than Team Evil).

    Simply put, I'm against having big creature size a non-negotiable dealbreaker, on the basis that we know for sure that MitD is smaller than his creature size. There are many ways to achieve this - removing FBS Criterion #6 is one of them, but eliminating FBS altogether does it too (if a creature is compelling despite being too big, since most people seem to agree MitD isn't "full size", it will almost certainly find itself near the top of Crusher's List, size be damned; and if it doesn't, it's because it's not compelling enough).
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Sure, done. But none of those are compatible with one another. E gets rid of FBS, so B & C can't apply to a section we don't have anymore, and F is an alternative to both B and C.

    (Malloon, this is how you give me a headache, if you are still looking into that)

    GW
    Oh, huh. Ok, this is embarrassing but I’d always thought the FBS criteria were a bit separate from the candidate list. So, I thought E,F would keep the criteria as a vestigial evaluation aid, and only the monster list would go away in some fashion. My mistake.

    Can I, um, rescind my votes for E,F? Sorry about that.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by MartytheBioGuy View Post
    Which is why, for however problematic as some entries are, I was glad to see 3Powers' list.
    3powers' list is utterly inconsequential to the process of identifying every entry in 3e that needs to be in the FBS is A wins since it is missing most 1e creatures and doesn't list sizes, strengths, or anything else needed to make the decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Oh, huh. Ok, this is embarrassing but I’d always thought the FBS criteria were a bit separate from the candidate list. So, I thought E,F would keep the criteria as a vestigial evaluation aid, and only the monster list would go away in some fashion. My mistake.
    No need for rules when it's a direct vote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Can I, um, rescind my votes for E,F? Sorry about that.
    Rescinded it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Section 1f: MitD's Scores
    But Section 1f is completely separate from the Official FBS Criteria.

    Have "we" been treating "STR Must Be >=30" as a formal-yet-secret FBS Criterion all this time...?

    Because that's really not what (Basically Unarguable) FBS Criterion #2 says.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    3powers' list is utterly inconsequential to the process of identifying every entry in 3e that needs to be in the FBS is A wins since it is missing most 1e creatures and doesn't list sizes, strengths, or anything else needed to make the decision.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if A wins, then at least part of 3power's methodology (not paying attention to size) would actually help us in compiling a list, no?

    Like, if we remove the size requirement, then why do we suddenly need to look at a bunch of entries for their size? We wouldn't need to pay attention to size anymore, except as a bonus.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    secret
    And I'm done with you again. Someone please do let me know if he changes his votes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartytheBioGuy View Post
    Like, if we remove the size requirement, then why do we suddenly need to look at a bunch of entries for their size? We wouldn't need to pay attention to size anymore, except as a bonus.
    If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.

    Grey Wolf
    Are there any? It seems to me that anything that qualified except for the size either had a problem with strength when scaled down enough, which would generally continue to disqualify them due to lacking an explanation for the tower scene, or got voted in on special exception anyway.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Well, this is certainly an interesting vote. As I mentioned earlier, I think I have come to see the size rule as problematic and so would like to see it removed/reworked. However, I remain a supporter of the FBS list until a better proposal for its replacement comes along. While there are issues with people wanting their proposals in the list, removing the list with no replacement would be unhelpful (when I first found the list I made it about 3 entries into 3e before giving up). I‘m not a huge fan of replacing it with Crusher‘s list (or a similar entity). What I or others think the MitD could be can easily stray from what is actually likely (just look at my vote).

    Thus, my vote will be the following. A > C > Z > B

    Also, new thread, yay! Wonder how long it’ll be until the MitD actually rears it’s ever-changing head.


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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Are there any? It seems to me that anything that qualified except for the size either had a problem with strength when scaled down enough, which would generally continue to disqualify them due to lacking an explanation for the tower scene, or got voted in on special exception anyway.
    There is at least 2, and likely more. But if I knew, I wouldn't have a problem doing the listing, now would I?

    ETA: also, what's this about scaling down the strength? Option A doesn't require it. A Colossal creature with strength 30 would still need to be put in the FBS (assuming the other conditions didn't prevent it, etc. etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    However, I remain a supporter of the FBS list until a better proposal for its replacement comes along.
    As per the above, I think the FBS will be made worse without the size cap. When we introduced it, the FBS had 14 members. Now, some of them probably won't make it back because of mental control, and I'm more strict than I used to regarding strength. But many other suggestions have been added since, many who got dinged on size alone. If as I fear the FBS suddenly ends with 15+ entries, it'll be half as useful as it is today.

    ETA: and in case that is not obvious, I have the same problem in reverse with B and F: an FBS with only 3 or 2 entries is not as useful as one with ~6-12.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    If we remove the size requirement, every entry in 3e that now fits FBS criteria must be found and moved to 3a.
    Good point. Owing to some of the lack of clarity in 3power's list's organization, I hadn't realized just how different the list was. I've started work on a more consequential writeup regarding the 3e entries. So far, Aboleth Mage actually works pretty well, but this we already knew.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    I would vote for:
    Either of (B, F) > H > G > Z
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    And I'm done with you again. Someone please do let me know if he changes his votes.
    So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're disputing that the FBS Criteria at the moment are in the number of seven, and that they are the following...?

    1) Has a plausible explanation for the Escape
    2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
    3) Has a plausible explanation for the Circus (both his act, and the reactions)
    4) Isn't one of the impossible categories (see section 3c - categories) (unless it is an exception)
    5) Existed before strip #100 in a form accessible to Rich.
    6) Size no bigger than Huge ("fits in the box")
    7) Is vulnerable to mind-affecting effects (SoD)


    ... because I don't see anything about having a minimum STR requirement there. Creatures simply have to be able to plausibly perform what MitD did in the Tower Scene, that's all.

    If it's not listed there, yet it's being used in practice as a criterion... are we going to have to break out a dictionary and look up the word "secret"? I'm seriously discussing this in good faith - you're the one being aggressive here (making a point of ignoring me, while all I did was repeat a very valid point that Jasdoif brought up first).
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