MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Magesmiley]

Unfortunately, there are some serious flaws with the crystal dragon that, in my opinion, preclude it from being MitD.


MitD was explicitly not doing anything during the circus scene, so he couldn't have been manifesting any powers. And a dragon's frightful presence certain actions in order to activate, none of which MitD was doing in the circus scene.

We don't see MitD on stage when the crowd is reacting. We don't know what he is doing. And psionic powers don't require him to be waving his arms around or anything - he could be just standing there doing it.

Any crystal dragon strong enough to qualify on pure strength is too large to fit under the umbrella. I don't think psionic powers can be used to explain the tower scene, because they don't constitute hitting. Even if they did, the only power that could possibly explain the scene is telekinetic force, which doesn't constitute hitting as lightly as possible, since it's a third level power.

Huge creatures aren't completely out of the question and crystal dragons can hit 33 strength while still being huge. There's the Animal Affinity power too, potentially good for another 4 points, which at the extreme end of huge makes for 37, and large gets up to 27.

I left the gargantuan age categories out of my considerations (which gets up to 39).

Redcloak, who knows what MitD is and is a fairly smart guy in general, isn't sure whether or not psionics were in use until long after he met MitD. How could this be if MitD was using psionic powers so frequently?

Redcloak's knowledge is one of the weaker items here, I'll agree. But the same argument could be made for most of the candidates.

But you've already answered your own question - if he didn't know until long after he met MitD, how would he recognize a power being manifested?

Also, in the escape scene, the MitD uses powers "he didn't even know he had". Thus, if you think he used psionics there he can't have been using them earlier.

What about going up an age category as a dragon? That would raised his level of psion, granting new powers that he didn't have.

Why would the hunters be sarcastic here? They're perfectly serious throughout the rest of the scene.

Why not? I can totally see a big game hunter with an English style accent uttering those words. Especially if they're surprised to see something there in the first place.


Overall though, I think the crystal dragon is a far stronger fit than a lot of the others on the list.

Also, I actually was considering the pseudonatural template too, but determined that there were ways to explain things without it. Occam's razor.

[catagent101]

The main problem I have with the crystal dragon is that the sapphire dragon manages to be superior in every way a better fit yet is still a pretty bad fit in the same ways dragons typically are. I am not sold on the idea that MiTD is a Mature Adult dragon (or Very Old in the case of the crystal dragon due to Expanded Knowledge).

Web source for gem dragons

[InvisibleBison]

We don't see MitD on stage when the crowd is reacting. We don't know what he is doing. And psionic powers don't require him to be waving his arms around or anything - he could be just standing there doing it.

On page 84 of Start of Darkness, MitD's handler says that MitD's act consists of standing on stage and being looked at, and MitD agrees with her. Unless you think MitD was lying, this rules out him having used any active abilities during the circus scene.

Huge creatures aren't completely out of the question and crystal dragons can hit 33 strength while still being huge.

Fair enough.

Redcloak's knowledge is one of the weaker items here, I'll agree. But the same argument could be made for most of the candidates.

But you've already answered your own question - if he didn't know until long after he met MitD, how would he recognize a power being manifested?

Redcloak has a copy of the MM2 - if he saw MitD manifestimg a power, he'd know psionics were in use.

What about going up an age category as a dragon? That would raised his level of psion, granting new powers that he didn't have.

When you gain a new level of psion, you choose what powers you learn. Without some evidence to the contrary, I see no reason not to think gem dragons learn powers the same way.

Why not? I can totally see a big game hunter with an English style accent uttering those words. Especially if they're surprised to see something there in the first place.

The fact that it's not impossible for the SBGH's statement to have been sarcastic is not evidence that it was sarcastic. And given that he was quite sincere throughout the rest of the scene, I see no reason to think he wasn't equally sincere when he expressed surprise that MitD could talk.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

We don't see MitD on stage when the crowd is reacting. We don't know what he is doing. And psionic powers don't require him to be waving his arms around or anything - he could be just standing there doing it.

No, he is explicitly standing there doing nothing, being gawked at (which he finds hard).

Huge creatures aren't completely out of the question and crystal dragons can hit 33 strength while still being huge. There's the Animal Affinity power too, potentially good for another 4 points, which at the extreme end of huge makes for 37, and large gets up to 27.

Huge creatures are considered under the possibility MitD is not full grown, and their strength needs to be scaled down to MitD's size - but dragons don't get to use that avenue, since we have their full growth charts. Since we do have a stat for a large Medium/small Large crystal dragon, we know exactly how strong one would be when they are MitD's size, and from that we can see it is not strong enough to punch people through walls while trying to hit as light as possible even by the very generous standards of the thread.

Why not? I can totally see a big game hunter with an English style accent uttering those words. Especially if they're surprised to see something there in the first place.

If you walk up to a Scotsman, and you express surprise they are speaking, and in English by saying "oh, look, he's speaking, and in English" is not "sarcastic". It is daft (and likely to get you a punch in the face). There is equally nothing to be sarcastic about it if the creature is known to speak in common, just antagonistic - something the SBGH have no reason to be. Also, this was not an assertion made in a vacuum: the rest of the conversation reveals them to be talking very seriously, not sarcastic at all. And the metacontext is in the matter of giving clues about MitD - from that perspective, there is also no reason for them to be sarcastic about that one sentence.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

If you walk up to a Scotsman, and you express surprise they are speaking, and in English by saying "oh, look, he's speaking, and in English" is not "sarcastic". It is daft (and likely to get you a punch in the face). There is equally nothing to be sarcastic about it if the creature is known to speak in common, just antagonistic - something the SBGH have no reason to be. Also, this was not an assertion made in a vacuum: the rest of the conversation reveals them to be talking very seriously, not sarcastic at all. And the metacontext is in the matter of giving clues about MitD - from that perspective, there is also no reason for them to be sarcastic about that one sentence.

Grey Wolf

Have you ever heard a glaswegian speak? That may have been a bad example.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have you ever heard a glaswegian speak? That may have been a bad example.

Yes, I have. Which is why I picked them - because being foolish enough to tell someone that will happily kick your teeth in for suggesting they can't talk (especially if they in fact are known to speak twice as many languages as you do!) is the perfect parallel to walking up to a dragon and attempting to suggest they too can't talk.

Grey Wolf

[Darth Paul]

Have you ever heard a glaswegian speak? That may have been a bad example.

Funny story; I went to postgrad studies at Strathclyde and stayed in the graduate apartments at Murray Hall, sharing a kitchen with Callum from Peterhead (pronounced Peer'ead), Dave from just outside Glasgow, Dave from Ireland, Billy from Edinburgh iirc, and Serge from South Africa. Within about 6 weeks, to be understood by any of them, my accent had somehow become an amalgam of all of them. Along with a large dose of the lady who ran the newsagent's and the lady down the chip shop.

[Magesmiley]

On page 84 of Start of Darkness, MitD's handler says that MitD's act consists of standing on stage and being looked at, and MitD agrees with her. Unless you think MitD was lying, this rules out him having used any active abilities during the circus scene.

Redcloak has a copy of the MM2 - if he saw MitD manifestimg a power, he'd know psionics were in use.

When you gain a new level of psion, you choose what powers you learn. Without some evidence to the contrary, I see no reason not to think gem dragons learn powers the same way.

I think that some of this comes down to a view that MitD isn't even aware that he is using or even has powers.

As a player, or even a wizard, one chooses. As a sorcerer or a psion character, there can be a good argument that they develop naturally and one isn't going out trying to obtain specific ones. From that vantage point, a creature using a power that they don't know they have without realizing it, becomes a real possibility.

The rain or the escape teleportation are actually very good examples that he doesn't know he has or even is using a power.

An interesting bit regarding the MM2... if psionics aren't in use, the gem dragons are treated as sorcerers. So this woulkd come full circle back to Redcloak knowing if psionics were in use or not.

[mjasghar]

We had a lecturer from Northern Ireland
Strangely enough most of us from the midlands and the north were able to understand him - it was just those from the south east that had issues. And his accent wasn’t that strong compared to some I’ve subsequently heard from the Northern Ireland.
I am reminded of a comedian who pretended to be an ordinary fan and phoned up a sports station talking about a goalkeeper. He wanted him to play for Scotland. The presenter said “he’s Finnish” the man responded “he’s not finnish he’s only 28”🤣

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think that some of this comes down to a view that MitD isn't even aware that he is using or even has powers.

Even if I accepted that explanation - and I don't - a touch distance power and a single target power do not adequately explain the circus scene. The latter especially, since it would require MitD to invest 28 additional PPs to affect everyone that was in any way disturbed or disgusted by his appearance. That pushes the boundaries of activating his powers without being aware well past the point of plausibility, even if one chooses to interpret "stand there doing nothing" as "stand there and use psionic powers without cluing RC into realising it's a psionic power".

Grey Wolf

[Squire Doodad]

I want to point out that while it's unlikely the MitD has psionics or can use them given RC doesn't realize them for a while, one could also take RC's line as being a throwaway gag about psionics clashing with the more Fantasy-esque themes of DnD or something like that. Some of you guys feel strongly about it, but if RC heard of Psions when he was born, and then only found out they were real shortly after meeting MitD, then that could count as the long time it took to realize they were, in fact, using Psions.

Of course, his line could also mean that he didn't realize it until a Psion showed up to chip in with scanning O-Chul's mind, which apparently is the intended meaning? I don't think Rich has clarified on that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I want to point out that while it's unlikely the MitD has psionics or can use them given RC doesn't realize them for a while, one could also take RC's line as being a throwaway gag about psionics clashing with the more Fantasy-esque themes of DnD or something like that. Some of you guys feel strongly about it, but if RC heard of Psions when he was born, and then only found out they were real shortly after meeting MitD, then that could count as the long time it took to realize they were, in fact, using Psions.

Of course, his line could also mean that he didn't realize it until a Psion showed up to chip in with scanning O-Chul's mind, which apparently is the intended meaning? I don't think Rich has clarified on that.

The intended meaning seems to be that he didn't really have a reason to believe that psionic rules where in effect until, in a desperate attempt to detect lies on his paladin prisoner who rudely refused to lie to him about the defences he did not in fact know about, RC decided to go find one that could, and seemingly required a lot of effort to find. Now, do I think that was intended as an MitD clue? No. But I also know Rich's attention to detail enough that, if he had had a psionic creature display psionic powers in front of him, he'd have come up with a different way for RC to express his annoyance at O-Chul.

ETA: heck, I could make an argument that it wouldn't surprise me if Rich hadn't decided until that point if there were going to be psionic rules in the comic, and it was only here that Rich decided "sure, and the kitchen sink too". If so, in a secondary way, it impacts this thread because that joke would not have been placed there if Rich had been thinking of MitD as a psionic creature all along.

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

With regards to sorcerers - did Xykon become a necromancer sorcerer because he wanted to bring his dog back OR because he was naturally powered that way and just needed the impetus?

[Magesmiley]

No, he is explicitly standing there doing nothing, being gawked at (which he finds hard).


Huge creatures are considered under the possibility MitD is not full grown, and their strength needs to be scaled down to MitD's size - but dragons don't get to use that avenue, since we have their full growth charts. Since we do have a stat for a large Medium/small Large crystal dragon, we know exactly how strong one would be when they are MitD's size, and from that we can see it is not strong enough to punch people through walls while trying to hit as light as possible even by the very generous standards of the thread.


If you walk up to a Scotsman, and you express surprise they are speaking, and in English by saying "oh, look, he's speaking, and in English" is not "sarcastic". It is daft (and likely to get you a punch in the face). There is equally nothing to be sarcastic about it if the creature is known to speak in common, just antagonistic - something the SBGH have no reason to be. Also, this was not an assertion made in a vacuum: the rest of the conversation reveals them to be talking very seriously, not sarcastic at all. And the metacontext is in the matter of giving clues about MitD - from that perspective, there is also no reason for them to be sarcastic about that one sentence.

Grey Wolf

Standing there being gawked at seems like something that could cause a power to be used without even realizing it. Especially since psionics can be performed while just standing there. Psionics, like sorcerer spellcasting could be viewed as something developed without realizing it as one ages, rather than being selected.

Size can be a bit quirky in OOTS at times and not an exact science. Dragons do change in size over time too as you've pointed out. Even if he was one size at the beginning, it's possible that he's growing into another. Or for that matter, Rich is just leaving him roughly the same size in the art. It does seem to vary a bit depending on how much room the strip has.

I focused on the crystal primarily as its description and alignment most closely matched how MitD behaves. However, most of the gem dragons could be contenders with the right power selection, if one disregards their description and alignment.

If we were to disregard alignment and typical behavior (making MitD unusual for his species), power-wise the Sapphire would be an even better fit. Especially as it gains skate and teleport inherently (both cited in my justification for the crystal), has psychoportation as its primary discipline, and are known to be antisocial (which, if MitD was one, would explain why the hunters are surprised it talks). They're also a step behind the crystal, being large still as an adult and becoming huge as a mature adult (thereby hitting psion levels earlier for its size).

That said, the attitudes in the description of the crystal along with its alignment were simply too close to the behavior observed. Overall though, psionics/dragon abilities combined can explain or fit just about everything. And the gem dragons are the top candidates from that pool of creatures.

And now I'm thinking harder about the sapphire. Particularly if MitD is transitioning from adult to mature adult, and just gained 5th level powers. Hmmm. They like games of strategy too. And their eyes fade as they get older - maybe the art change on the eyes.

I still favor the crystal because of attitudes and alignment, but power and ability-wise nearly everything holds true for a Sapphire dragon as well.

[Omomuro]

That... is a good catch, though I don't think it handles the other issues. Though I guess elephants do look pretty weird if you've never seen them before, compared to most other large land mammals.

True enough, hence Pseudonatural is so tempting as an easy band-aid on that which would add enough strength and also account for the circus scene pretty easily. The Trumpet would be a bit of a stretch for his big shout (especially since it would damage Belkar!).

Being "greater teleport (self and up to 20 pounds of objects only)" precludes using it to teleport other creatures, like O-Chul and Vaarsuvius.

This is fair, but I don't think this is used to discount, say, the black troll at the top of the list even though his is the regular greater teleport as well to my knowledge.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is fair, but I don't think this is used to discount, say, the black troll at the top of the list even though his is the regular greater teleport as well to my knowledge.

If that is the case, that'd be a reason to penalise the black troll (trying to check, but I suspect the enworld creature it refers to is no longer in the same url). My notes in the entry, however, say that it has access to the spell itself, not to an SLA. The spell does not have the (self + object weight) limitation many SLA teleports have.

ETA: Here is Crusher's post introducing the Black Troll. According to this, he can "cast teleport without error as a 9th level sorcerer", although Crusher himself couldn't quite believe it.

GW

[Ruck]

With regards to sorcerers - did Xykon become a necromancer sorcerer because he wanted to bring his dog back OR because he was naturally powered that way and just needed the impetus?

I've always read it as the latter, though there's nothing strictly conclusive.

[Omomuro]

If that is the case, that'd be a reason to penalise the black troll (trying to check, but I suspect the enworld creature it refers to is no longer in the same url). My notes in the entry, however, say that it has access to the spell itself, not to an SLA. The spell does not have the (self + object weight) limitation many SLA teleports have.

ETA: Here is Crusher's post introducing the Black Troll. According to this, he can "cast teleport without error as a 9th level sorcerer", although Crusher himself couldn't quite believe it.

GW

Ah, alright, that makes a lot more sense to me now.

Seeing as "can't explain the escape" is far and away the most common reason to discount things on the Proposed Ideas list, perhaps the note that SLAs != Spells with regards to weight limits might clear things up a bit for newbies (like me) scrounging through every creature with teleport out there.

Incidentally, is there a Big List of Creatures with Wish out there?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ah, alright, that makes a lot more sense to me now.

Seeing as "can't explain the escape" is far and away the most common reason to discount things on the Proposed Ideas list, perhaps the note that SLAs != Spells with regards to weight limits might clear things up a bit for newbies (like me) scrounging through every creature with teleport out there.

Not every teleport SLA has that weight limitation, though. It is very common in demons and angels (presumably because they can be summoned relatively easily, and thus need both a way to get to you and also a way to not just become a taxi service for the party - thus a teleport that only works for them). Thing is, we know that limit is enforced in OotS because it was explicitly called out by the demonic trio, so it cannot be brushed aside.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

If that is the case, that'd be a reason to penalise the black troll (trying to check, but I suspect the enworld creature it refers to is no longer in the same url). My notes in the entry, however, say that it has access to the spell itself, not to an SLA. The spell does not have the (self + object weight) limitation many SLA teleports have.

ETA: Here is Crusher's post introducing the Black Troll. According to this, he can "cast teleport without error as a 9th level sorcerer", although Crusher himself couldn't quite believe it.

I could totally believe that a third-party/homebrew conversion of an AD&D creature could forget to mention/include the "self and weight" teleport limitation common to natives of the Abyss in 3.x . (Also, "cast x as a yth level sorcerer" sounds like one of the awkward phrasings that denotes a spell-like ability)

[Omomuro]

Not every teleport SLA has that weight limitation, though. It is very common in demons and angels (presumably because they can be summoned relatively easily, and thus need both a way to get to you and also a way to not just become a taxi service for the party - thus a teleport that only works for them). Thing is, we know that limit is enforced in OotS because it was explicitly called out by the demonic trio, so it cannot be brushed aside.

Grey Wolf

Thanks, gotcha. I went and looked up the panel with Qarr carrying V's dead head, and there it is.

In this instance, are there any/many creatures that aren't morality plane denizens that do have a teleport SLA sans weight limitation?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thanks, gotcha. I went and looked up the panel with Qarr carrying V's dead head, and there it is.

In this instance, are there any/many creatures that aren't morality plane denizens that do have a teleport SLA sans weight limitation?

In the words of the immortal Tim Minchin, "I don't know... I don't sit around making lists of stuff". Off the top of my head, the usual suspects - umbral blot, ANB, Black & White Slaad, Uvuu & Xenocrysth - all have it in some form or another. But I don't really know which others also have it.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Yes, I have. Which is why I picked them - because being foolish enough to tell someone that will happily kick your teeth in for suggesting they can't talk (especially if they in fact are known to speak twice as many languages as you do!) is the perfect parallel to walking up to a dragon and attempting to suggest they too can't talk.

In my defense, I only questioned how the young adult black dragon got two bonus languages when the rules only allow one after he was thoroughly dead, and even then not to his face, but only in this thread which cares about that sort of technicality about what attributes monsters get in the comic. That is slightly less foolish, right?

[Kish]

In my defense, I only questioned how the young adult black dragon got two bonus languages when the rules only allow one after he was thoroughly dead, and even then not to his face, but only in this thread which cares about that sort of technicality about what attributes monsters get in the comic. That is slightly less foolish, right?

I don't know. If you get eaten by a black dragon, make sure to post and let us know.

[Omomuro]

I don't know. If you get eaten by a black dragon, make sure to post and let us know.

Instructions unclear, performed Shapechange shortly afterwards.

[Jaecp]

So, hey,

The Monster in the Darkness is totally some sort of goblin god, probably the one the goblins were supposed to have in the first place.

I'm basing this largely off of having read the comic for years and that one comic where Mr Scruffy is playing with what looks like a tiny snarl in the airship and the fact that Mr Scruffy and MitD have the same eyes and I don't think anyone else has those eyes.

So whatever the MitD is, I'd bet very good money Belker's cat is the same creature OR MitD is just a straight up god and DnD already had those. As such I don't have any stats in question, but it is a fact that the MitD was there at the start of the world which means he predates the world in some respect. A god that didn't have enough of those various stats Thor mentions would potentially explain that or the other gods could have conspired to put the original god of the goblins away somewhere and wipe his memory or something. His whole childlike thing where he literally is relearning how to do all the stuff he was able to do before, explains the rapidly increasing intellect (trenchant political analysis!) and basically all of his feats. I can think of no other explanation for why all the non goblins are having *varied* reactions while the Goblins love the guy. Its got a very "ark of the covenant" vibe to it. Like, step away from DnD exactly and go into myth. What creatures other than deities look beautiful to your own race but other races start freaking out or vomiting? MitD *has* to be some sort of deity

The humans were stereotypical brits right? Being racist isn't out of the question nor is it off theme. The MitD, looking like some sort of hideous creature, would be surprising to racists he speaks common, but Goblins in SoD sure thought he was rad! Heck, maybe the Red Cloak someone prevents Redcloak from recognizing that the Monster in the Darkness is The Dark One? (mostly kidding)

Do any other creatures have eyes like Mr Scruffy and MitD? Also does anyone know which comic Scruffy played with the mini snarl?

[Quebbster]

it is a fact that the MitD was there at the start of the world which means he predates the world in some respect.

Citation needed, I believe. As far as I know, the first appearance of the MiTD was 30 years ago and the current world is thousands of years old based on the calendar dates.

[Quebbster]

Also does anyone know which comic Scruffy played with the mini snarl?

This one. I think it's just purple yarn that happens to look like the Snarl in an extreme closeup though.

[Jaecp]

Citation needed, I believe. As far as I know, the first appearance of the MiTD was 30 years ago and the current world is thousands of years old based on the calendar dates.

I don't have a citation, but when he was asked when he got there he said "I think I was always there"

Sorry, I just made this account 20 minutes ago. I don't have a fully sourced argument. A couple details have been stuck in my head and I haven't been able to square em.

Also,

(apparently I can't post links to oots 85 until i make 10 posts)
[speculation] Being forgotten is bad news. Forgotten gods are basically comatose until they get some worship, and are warped by whatever discarded ideas sink down to the bottom of the astral plane and accrete on their slumbering forms. Thus are the Banjhulus formed. [/speculation]

This is a recent post in another thread, but its interesting to me that this is strip 85, a time when Rich had not yet decided but was probably in the process of thinking about it! This could be a clue most ignore for being pre-100

[Jaecp]

(apparently I can't have links even in quotes)]. I think it's just purple yarn that happens to look like the Snarl in an extreme closeup though.

If (one of) my theory is correct, both the cat and the MitD have violet quiddity and what we see the cat doing is making a simple one color thing!