MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Quebbster]

I don't have a citation, but when he was asked when he got there he said "I think I was always there"

I see. That would be this strip then.
I don't know if "always" means "since the beginning of this world" though. If you asked my son he would probably say he has always lived in our current apartment. However, we lived in a smaller apartment when he was born and moved to our current apartment when he was 18 months old. He doesn't remember the first apartment, but that doesn't mean he has always lived in our current apartment, and he certainly hasn't been there since the beginning of time at any rate.

[Jaecp]

I see. That would be then.
I don't know if "always" means "since the beginning of this world" though. If you asked my son he would probably say he has always lived in our current apartment. However, we lived in a smaller apartment when he was born and moved to our current apartment when he was 18 months old. He doesn't remember the first apartment, but that doesn't mean he has always lived in our current apartment, and he certainly hasn't been there since the beginning of time at any rate.

Sure, that's very logical in the real world

But what would the most dramatic thing be in a DnD world where, can we both agree, humans and every other species present finding you gross but the goblins finding you beautiful is a very on brand power for a deity class being to have, yeah?

Also, is Rich the kind of guy who would intentionally use an ambiguous phrase for a twist? I think yes! We shouldn't discount a plausible interpretation based upon the MitD relatively blunt way of talking early on just because its not plausible using a real world scenario. Your toddler also can't backhand a paladin through a wall and who knows how far away! While trying to tap as light as you can! I also think it'll be quite awhile yet before over the span of, uhh, how long does this story officially take place over again? Very few beings would be able to learn all of that while basically doing little more than screw around

[Quebbster]

Sure, that's very logical in the real world

But what would the most dramatic thing be in a DnD world where, can we both agree, humans and every other species present finding you gross but the goblins finding you beautiful is a very on brand power for a deity class being to have, yeah?

Also, is Rich the kind of guy who would intentionally use an ambiguous phrase for a twist? I think yes! We shouldn't discount a plausible interpretation based upon the MitD relatively blunt way of talking early on just because its not plausible using a real world scenario. Your toddler also can't backhand a paladin through a wall and who knows how far away! While trying to tap as light as you can! I also think it'll be quite awhile yet before over the span of, uhh, how long does this story officially take place over again? Very few beings would be able to learn all of that while basically doing little more than screw around

I think stating your interpretation as a fact is taking it a bit far, that's all. There has certainly been worse theories suggested.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Monster in the Darkness is totally some sort of goblin god, probably the one the goblins were supposed to have in the first place.

Please see section 3b - Deity, and be sure to address the issues listed there

I can think of no other explanation for why all the non goblins are having *varied* reactions while the Goblins love the guy.

Half of the goblins are thoroughly unimpressed. Only the two children, who are his friends, are excited. The adolescent and RE show no significant emotion.

The humans were stereotypical brits right? Being racist isn't out of the question nor is it off theme.

Maybe. But them being exicted about the sale value of deities is definitely off theme. There are not so many loose deities running around that they'd be talking about "one of these' or how much they could make selling it.

Grey Wolf

[Omomuro]

Now that I have my rights to post links I'd like to present the results of poring over every database I could find and seeking out creatures with some kind of teleport!

I got two, one of which would require a template, but for the sake of completeness I'll present them anyway:

---

Cath'Shee (Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol.2, 1996) [1, 2, 3]

A big fae cat with a Greater Teleport under "Combat" that is described in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 1 (not linked since it's a PDF of a book so I didn't know about copyright status) as such:

An inborn ability enables the cath’shee to teleport without error itself as the spell cast by a 16th-level sorcerer at will, up to 500 feet.

Escape: If the spell is meant to be "as cast by a sorcerer" could this extend to a couple of other Medium-sized creatures? At any rate its range is absolutely miserable.

Circus: It's certainly strange-looking but not particularly vomit-inducing, with no traits or SLAs which could account for that either short of a Pseudonatural template.

Tower: Nowhere near strong enough at STR 16, would need a Pseudonatural template for this and the circus.

Circumstantial evidence: Eats a lot, correct size, can speak but even if it does it'd be in Elven, not native to rainforests with big game hunters.

---

Zeugalak (Lords of Madness, 2005 so probably too late on reflection) [1, 2]



While it has a form of Greater Teleport, let me just clarify before I get ahead of myself:

If a zeugalak gains points to its Dexterity from an electricity-based attack, it can instantly teleport (as the spell greater teleport) to the source of the electrical attack. This ability is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and can be used once per minute. A zeugalak can use this ability even on another creature's turn.

Escape: Unless there was a stray lightning bolt (LIKE THIS ONE!!!) that hit him he wouldn't have the juice to do so, but then again he wouldn't be going anywhere except to Vaarsuvius. Also, very unclear if it could bring anybody along.

Circus: An electric elephant with a lamprey's mouth would be pretty disturbing IRL, I figure.

Tower: At STR 28, on the low end of plausible strength ranges.

Circumstantial evidence: Not native to rainforests, definitely has parents (which it would grow up to be as Huge as), known for being dim-witted. However, has a constant electric aura than we never see in the comic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Cath'Shee (Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol.2, 1996)

An inborn ability enables the cath’shee to teleport without error itself as the spell cast by a 16th-level sorcerer at will, up to 500 feet.

Escape: If the spell is meant to be "as cast by a sorcerer" could this extend to a couple of other Medium-sized creatures? At any rate its range is absolutely miserable.

That "itself" suggests that the designers intended to only allow it to teleport without passengers. That 500 feet distance is also clearly insufficient. And I'm guessing the "as a level X" business is just to see how hard it is to counterspell? Because once you've remove number of passengers and distance, I'm not sure the spell has any other level-dependant variables.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Now that I have my rights to post links I'd like to present the results of poring over every database I could find and seeking out creatures with some kind of teleport!

I got two, one of which would require a template, but for the sake of completeness I'll present them anyway:

---

Cath'Shee (Monstrous Compendium Annual Vol.2, 1996) [1, 2, 3]

A big fae cat with a Greater Teleport under "Combat" that is described in Bestiary of the Realms Vol. 1 (not linked since it's a PDF of a book so I didn't know about copyright status) as such:

An inborn ability enables the cath’shee to teleport without error itself as the spell cast by a 16th-level sorcerer at will, up to 500 feet.

Escape: If the spell is meant to be "as cast by a sorcerer" could this extend to a couple of other Medium-sized creatures? At any rate its range is absolutely miserable.

Circus: It's certainly strange-looking but not particularly vomit-inducing, with no traits or SLAs which could account for that either short of a Pseudonatural template.

Tower: Nowhere near strong enough at STR 16, would need a Pseudonatural template for this and the circus.

Circumstantial evidence: Eats a lot, correct size, can speak but even if it does it'd be in Elven, not native to rainforests with big game hunters.

---

Zeugalak (Lords of Madness, 2005 so probably too late on reflection) [1, 2]



While it has a form of Greater Teleport, let me just clarify before I get ahead of myself:

If a zeugalak gains points to its Dexterity from an electricity-based attack, it can instantly teleport (as the spell greater teleport) to the source of the electrical attack. This ability is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity and can be used once per minute. A zeugalak can use this ability even on another creature's turn.

Escape: Unless there was a stray lightning bolt (LIKE THIS ONE!!!) that hit him he wouldn't have the juice to do so, but then again he wouldn't be going anywhere except to Vaarsuvius. Also, very unclear if it could bring anybody along.

Circus: An electric elephant with a lamprey's mouth would be pretty disturbing IRL, I figure.

Tower: At STR 28, on the low end of plausible strength ranges.

Circumstantial evidence: Not native to rainforests, definitely has parents (which it would grow up to be as Huge as), known for being dim-witted. However, has a constant electric aura than we never see in the comic.

I like your approach on these, and starting with creatures able to cast Teleport isn't a bad idea. Finding creatures that are strong enough is an easier starting point so it tends to be, I suspect, how most folks go about it. Variety is always a good idea. And I have a pretty good memory for monsters and I don't remember seeing either of these before. Neither of them is a great candidate, but that second one isn't bad... An electric elephant with a lamprey's mouth for a head? Nice.

[Jaziggy]

Hi everyone! This is my first on-topic post in these forums, be kind.

Even as an anon lurker, the evidence- and minutiae-based nature of this thread fascinated me the most and I've learned about a whole lot of esoteric creatures and monsters as a result! I have a clarification I'd like to seek about a proposed (and mostly rejected) candidate, the cute/absolute unit Hollyphant, which is in the indices but to my knowledge has only been discussed in the main body once, +back in the halcyon days of Thread III (I'd link it, but this is literally my second post.)

Its criterion for rejection, besides being too weak even in big form, being too darn cute for the circus scene and there is "can't explain for the escape".

Before I start slapping a Pseudonatural template on an unsuspecting Hollyphant and call things a day, its appearance in the 2003 BoED does say that it has Greater Teleport, which is a better fit than Dimension Door and Plane Shift under some discussions, and more importantly (to my knowledge) predates the codification of the "stray dimensional anchor" theory into the index.

Is there something peculiar to how the Hollyphant uses greater teleport relative to other suggested creatures that stands out, or should the "can't explain the escape" be slightly tweaked or outright changed?

I love a psuedonatural hollyphant (I think I mentioned it on a recent post). It's fun and interesting and has all the capabilities you need. It also is specifically described as having amber, glowing eyes that match what little art the MitD has.

The group generally rejects any templated creature, and the psuedonatural template in particular gives any creature with a teleport ability everything else they need to FBS. To some that feels like cheating the guessing game; but you could also say that it's the most natural, comfortable fit and busy yourself guessing the best creature to stick that template on.

For me, it would be the most satisfying reveal of everything, funny and scary and weird all at once.

[Qwertystop]

I love a psuedonatural hollyphant (I think I mentioned it on a recent post). It's fun and interesting and has all the capabilities you need. It also is specifically described as having amber, glowing eyes that match what little art the MitD has.

The group generally rejects any templated creature, and the psuedonatural template in particular gives any creature with a teleport ability everything else they need to FBS. To some that feels like cheating the guessing game; but you could also say that it's the most natural, comfortable fit and busy yourself guessing the best creature to stick that template on.

For me, it would be the most satisfying reveal of everything, funny and scary and weird all at once.

It's less "cheating the guessing game" and more "with sufficient templates you could get most or all of what we've seen on basically anything, which means there's nothing to work from for guessing the base creature."

[Omomuro]

It's less "cheating the guessing game" and more "with sufficient templates you could get most or all of what we've seen on basically anything, which means there's nothing to work from for guessing the base creature."

I think in particular Pseudonatural Phrenic ______ could pretty much cover everything.

I was leaning more to Pseudonatural _______ that has teleport seeing as the nature of reality and that kind of thing would be thematic, whereas Phrenic does run into issues with Redcloak re: psionics.

[Jaecp]

Please see section 3b - Deity, and be sure to address the issues listed there

I had attempted to write something about all 7 points in my first post when I suggested this!


[/quote]Half of the goblins are thoroughly unimpressed. Only the two children, who are his friends, are excited. The adolescent and RE show no significant emotion. [/quote]

Ok, I guess I was focusing more on the "some people thought it was weirdly beautiful and some people vomited on sight" thing which still feels very on brand for some sort of deity.

Maybe. But them being exicted about the sale value of deities is definitely off theme. There are not so many loose deities running around that they'd be talking about "one of these' or how much they could make selling it.

Grey Wolf

Plenty of the gods we've seen so far are "shiny pokemon" of existing creatures. My mental image is that, under the magical darkness, there is quiddity around MitD and that will explain the weird feelings. Perhaps the quiddity wasn't strong 30 years ago and those things Thor talked about started getting to him somehow or its simply as "rat in the van" kinda thing where MitD randomly being stumbled upon by those brits kicked his story off the ground.

The big thing is that I'm not sure what besides a purple quiddity being could actually be narratively satisfying, you know? I know what a Tarrasque is when from I played 3.5, but wth is a Protean? Or any of the other half dozen reasonable guesses? I don't have a clue about it and most of the readership would probably need to google or check the forums to know what the creature is and that seems like something of a problem.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I had attempted to write something about all 7 points in my first post when I suggested this!

My apologies. My usual concern - the fact a deity cannot be mind-controlled - went unacknowledged.

Plenty of the gods we've seen so far are "shiny pokemon" of existing creatures.

I'm guessing you mean the 12 gods of the South - but those are not up for sale, nor found in forests so often (in fact, ever) that the SBGH comments could apply to them.

The big thing is that I'm not sure what besides a purple quiddity being could actually be narratively satisfying, you know? I know what a Tarrasque is when from I played 3.5, but wth is a Protean? Or any of the other half dozen reasonable guesses? I don't have a clue about it and most of the readership would probably need to google or check the forums to know what the creature is and that seems like something of a problem.

Unrecognizability is not only to be expected, but an asset, as far as I am concerned. Doylist, because that's the only way this game could work, when the readers are hard-core D&D fans (as they were, in much greater concentration, back around page #100). Watsonian, because it fits with the clue in the circus.

Also, there is not much difference in recognizability between the protean and the tarrasque. My father - who has never come within a 100 standard 20-foot poles of a D&D game in any shape or form correctly guessed what both of them were from their names alone. Advantages of a classic education.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

I don't think "narratively satisfying" has anything to do with the recognizability of the creature, but of the species fitting MITD's character journey in some meaningful way.

[Squire Doodad]

I don't think "narratively satisfying" has anything to do with the recognizability of the creature, but of the species fitting MITD's character journey in some meaningful way.

This. MitD being a lesser-known creature would definitely have more of an impact than "oh, look, it's a Tarrasque, the famous big thing", however that is separate from it being narratively satisfying. The Protean is appropriate for MitD from a narrative standpoint, not because it is little known and an amazing creature, but because what it can do and the mechanisms behind it provide a meaningful conclusion, literally and metaphorically, to MitD's evolution as a character.

For more details I'd refer to the essay linked in the first page.

[b_jonas]

The big thing is that I'm not sure what besides a purple quiddity being could actually be narratively satisfying, you know?

Saving O-Chul and Vaarsuvius in the escape scene was already a great narrative. Xykon was preparing to reveal the MitD as his ultimate weapon against the Order. Because of these, I expect that there'll be at least one more big scene where the MitD does something very important for the story. It's possible that he'll save the Order from Team Evil completely defeating them at the climax of the story, or it could be something else. I don't know what the big scene will be, because I don't know what abilities the MitD has. But if you expect a “narratively satisfying” ending, such a big scene will provide it. We also know that the MitD will be revealed, because the Giant said so. This helps because it will probably provide an explanation for how the MitD did these unlikely feats. The reveal itself may be at the same time as a big scene, as Xykon was planning, or it could be separate, but a reveal itself does not have to be narratively satisfying.

[Shining Wrath]

The single most important fact we know about MitD, established when the SBGH find him, is that's he's unusual for his kind of creature.
Unusual to be where he is and also unusual to be speaking Common.

This tends to argue against deities, who usually speak any language they need to. And GW's point about the resale value of deities is also well taken.

[battlepengu]

Hello, sorry if this is a nitpick or has been mentioned, but the OP says, in section 1c: "It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor cast by V during the preceding battle."

The bolded portion, however, is contradicted in comic 634, where the fiends state "any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire", so V's Dimensional Anchor would no longer be active at this time even if it did hit the monster.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hello, sorry if this is a nitpick or has been mentioned, but the OP says, in section 1c: "It has been suggested that a dimensional anchor/lock cast on MitD's box would prevent him from teleporting, but not from casting it. There is no evidence that such spell has been cast on the box, since the visual effect is a green aura and coloring that is not present on either, but MitD himself may have been hit by the stray (Quickened) Dimensional Anchor cast by V during the preceding battle."

The bolded portion, however, is contradicted in comic 634, where the fiends state "any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will end when the splices expire", so V's Dimensional Anchor would no longer be active at this time even if it did hit the monster.

I think that means only if it is a spell cast from the spell slots of the splices (so, they can't keep turning into a pink dragon after the splice that cast that left), but dimensional anchor is something that can easily come from V's own spell slots.

ETA: although it does seem quicken is a +4 metamagic. Does V have level 8 spell slots?

GW

[battlepengu]

I think that means only if it is a spell cast from the spell slots of the splices (so, they can't keep turning into a pink dragon after the splice that cast that left), but dimensional anchor is something that can easily come from V's own spell slots.

ETA: although it does seem quicken is a +4 metamagic. Does V have level 8 spell slots?

GW

To my recollection, the biggest spells V has used prior to that are Prismatic Spray and Banishment, both level 7. Given how that fight went, V was likely pulling out their biggest guns, though it is not impossible an 8th level spell slot was used off-panel. This fight came pretty much directly before the splice, so it's unlikely V gained a spell slot in that time. To me, this means it is likely V didn't have access to 8th level spell slots, and almost certainly didn't have quickened dimensional anchor prepared pre splice, so their access to the spell during the fight with Xykon is almost certainly due to the soul splice one way or the other (though it could be argued that the "rejuvenating effects" allowed V to use a slot they already possessed to prepare the spell, I'd argue that having it prepared due to the splice at all would subject it to the limitations).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To my recollection, the biggest spells V has used prior to that are Prismatic Spray and Banishment, both level 7.

The geekery thread has V at 16, and level 8 spells are obtained at level 15. So, unless I'm missing two level-ups somewhere, V probably had the slot at the time. I'd say the rejuvenation allowed V to re-prepare slots, not just reset them to pre-ABD fight status.

GW

[battlepengu]

The geekery thread has V at 16, and level 8 spells are obtained at level 15. So, unless I'm missing two level-ups somewhere, V probably had the slot at the time. I'd say the rejuvenation allowed V to re-prepare slots, not just reset them to pre-ABD fight status.

GW

The splice would affect any spell cast, though, by increasing V's caster level while casting it, thus modifying it's save DC etc. It's not unreasonable to think that, without the splice, a Dimensional Anchor from V wouldn't penetrate the spell resistance MiTD likely has. The magic would have received the benefits of the soul splice, I don't see why it wouldn't be subject to it's drawbacks.

[Charybdis136]

The splice would affect any spell cast, though, by increasing V's caster level while casting it, thus modifying it's save DC etc. It's not unreasonable to think that, without the splice, a Dimensional Anchor from V wouldn't penetrate the spell resistance MiTD likely has. The magic would have received the benefits of the soul splice, I don't see why it wouldn't be subject to it's drawbacks.

Agree. The fiends did not make an exception for spells from V's original spell slots persisting after the soul splice. ANY spell cast by V with a duration based effect should end after the soul splice (otherwise a spell like flight should not have ended since V already had access and would not have needed new spell slots for it). It is hard to say which buffs still existed prior to the end of soul splice since V was dispelled and then instantly hit with the wall. I just do not think any spell should last after the splice ended and thus the dimensional anchor exception does not apply. Maybe I am missing a big factor though or misremembering some facts though.

[Peelee]

The splice would affect any spell cast, though, by increasing V's caster level while casting it, thus modifying it's save DC etc. It's not unreasonable to think that, without the splice, a Dimensional Anchor from V wouldn't penetrate the spell resistance MiTD likely has. The magic would have received the benefits of the soul splice, I don't see why it wouldn't be subject to it's drawbacks.

You make one hell of a case. As someone who has always liked the idea that the dimensional anchor may end up being relevant, I totally agree with your line of thought here.

[Magesmiley]

Even if I accepted that explanation - and I don't - a touch distance power and a single target power do not adequately explain the circus scene. The latter especially, since it would require MitD to invest 28 additional PPs to affect everyone that was in any way disturbed or disgusted by his appearance. That pushes the boundaries of activating his powers without being aware well past the point of plausibility, even if one chooses to interpret "stand there doing nothing" as "stand there and use psionic powers without cluing RC into realising it's a psionic power".

Grey Wolf

There's only one getting sick.

Disturbed as opposed to sickened could have a number of causes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's only one getting sick.

There is one actively vomiting, one who looks like they are about to vomit, and a girl indicating her stomach is not feeling well.

GW

[Throknor]

You make one hell of a case. As someone who has always liked the idea that the dimensional anchor may end up being relevant, I totally agree with your line of thought here.

My counter-argument would be that the Giant didn't think that part through. If the Dimensional Lock is a plot point he probably decided on it long before the scene was scripted. And while the soul splice was likely plotted as well the speech they gave probably wasn't explicitly written until the strip was written.

Another is the IFCC were lying, being misleading, or over-simplifying.

And there's always the fallback:

If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

Yes, I know the hope is he's being reasonably fair about applying rules around the MITD. But if no one here noticed the discrepancy for years I think it's plausible he didn't when he wrote it.

[Ruck]

Are there powers that might feasibly send O-Chul and Vaarsuvius away without needing the Dimensional Anchor explanation?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are there powers that might feasibly send O-Chul and Vaarsuvius away without needing the Dimensional Anchor explanation?

Sure: wish, as it always was.

GW

[battlepengu]

I tend to ignore "Guess the Giant didn't think of that" as a valid reason to discount a theory without something else to back it up, no offense. I also think Rich is a good enough writer not to explicitly outline a drawback/limitation to the soul splice, and then entirely forget to apply it to something. If he chooses not to use the limitation in his story, that's just a red herring and totally fine, but I don't think he'd mistakenly not apply it when he should have. I also tend to hold MitD to higher standards, rules-wise, because of the guessing-game nature of him (though that may be a mistake, I'll freely admit).

Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c
The geekery thread has V at 16, and level 8 spells are obtained at level 15. So, unless I'm missing two level-ups somewhere, V probably had the slot at the time. I'd say the rejuvenation allowed V to re-prepare slots, not just reset them to pre-ABD fight status.

GW

The geekery thread has some pretty airtight logic for V's level being 16, as of 1102. Keep in mind, the Dimensional Anchor was cast way back in strip 652, nearly half the entire comic, and 2 full plot arcs ago. 2 levels in that time is entirely within reason, even assuming a bunch of opportunity for XP was lost while V was having that pleasant little visit with the fiends rather than participating in combat.

[Peelee]

Sure: wish, as it always was.

GW

Which is really my go-to, since it can be covered by "I wish O-Chul and the wizard are safe with their friends."

Universe-twisting-wish not required, of course.