MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Ruck]

Sure: wish, as it always was.

GW

Which is really my go-to, since it can be covered by "I wish O-Chul and the wizard are safe with their friends."

Universe-twisting-wish not required, of course.

Makes sense to me. I don't suppose anyone has a list of creatures with such capability handy. Not that it matters much to me, as long as any one of them is "physical nondeific."

[Throknor]

I tend to ignore "Guess the Giant didn't think of that" as a valid reason to discount a theory without something else to back it up, no offense. I also think Rich is a good enough writer not to explicitly outline a drawback/limitation to the soul splice, and then entirely forget to apply it to something. If he chooses not to use the limitation in his story, that's just a red herring and totally fine, but I don't think he'd mistakenly not apply it when he should have. I also tend to hold MitD to higher standards, rules-wise, because of the guessing-game nature of him (though that may be a mistake, I'll freely admit).

Not sure why I'd take offense. My point was that if no one here thought of it after over-analyzing everything for years then it's at least possible that he came up with the Dimensional Anchor being important before he fleshed out the Soul Splice and wrote the speech that would contradict it and therefore didn't make the connection either. I'm not going to argue further as I have nothing at stake here (I've always preferred the "Wish" angle) but I do want to be sure my point of view is as clear as it can be.

V cast a number of spells that expired when the splice ended. Acid Immunity, Quickened Stoneskin, Mind Blank, Quickened Bear's Endurance, Protection from Spells, Quickened Shield, and Shapechange to be specific. The most important possibly being Protection from Spells as losing that left V open to Mass Hold Person.

[Doug Lampert]

The splice would affect any spell cast, though, by increasing V's caster level while casting it, thus modifying it's save DC etc. It's not unreasonable to think that, without the splice, a Dimensional Anchor from V wouldn't penetrate the spell resistance MiTD likely has. The magic would have received the benefits of the soul splice, I don't see why it wouldn't be subject to it's drawbacks.

Caster level doesn't modify DC, and a caster level from one class does not benefit spells cast by another class even if the same character has both classes, much less when one class is possessed by a different soul currently under control of the character.

I'm not seeing ANY rules reason that V's own slots should benefit from the soul splice in any respect other than the refresh.

[Crusher]

Not sure why I'd take offense. My point was that if no one here thought of it after over-analyzing everything for years then it's at least possible that he came up with the Dimensional Anchor being important before he fleshed out the Soul Splice and wrote the speech that would contradict it and therefore didn't make the connection either. I'm not going to argue further as I have nothing at stake here (I've always preferred the "Wish" angle) but I do want to be sure my point of view is as clear as it can be.

V cast a number of spells that expired when the splice ended. Acid Immunity, Quickened Stoneskin, Mind Blank, Quickened Bear's Endurance, Protection from Spells, Quickened Shield, and Shapechange to be specific. The most important possibly being Protection from Spells as losing that left V open to Mass Hold Person.

I thought Xykon dispelled most of those.

[battlepengu]

Caster level doesn't modify DC, and a caster level from one class does not benefit spells cast by another class even if the same character has both classes, much less when one class is possessed by a different soul currently under control of the character.

I'm not seeing ANY rules reason that V's own slots should benefit from the soul splice in any respect other than the refresh.

I misspoke when I said DC (mistyped? whatever. I goofed.) I meant the ability of a spell to penetrate spell resistance, copied here from the SRD:

To affect a creature that has spell resistance, a spellcaster must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) at least equal to the creature’s spell resistance.

1 of the souls bound at that point was a wizard, so I would think any spells cast by V at this point would be at whatever epic level the bound souls are at, whether Wizard or Sorcerer flavoured. I think it's pretty clear that anything cast by V was amped up by the soul mojo at the time, and would thus expire at the end of the splice.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I misspoke when I said DC (mistyped? whatever. I goofed.) I meant the ability of a spell to penetrate spell resistance, copied here from the SRD:



1 of the souls bound at that point was a wizard, so I would think any spells cast by V at this point would be at whatever epic level the bound souls are at, whether Wizard or Sorcerer flavoured. I think it's pretty clear that anything cast by V was amped up by the soul mojo at the time, and would thus expire at the end of the splice.

V didn't get bonuses to concentration from them or indeed any other help other than annoying voices only they (and Roy) could hear, and access to their spell slots. Yes, V's effective level included them, but that's to be expected: the expected level includes the whole party, and they got three companions of sorts. But all their other stats remained unmoved, so I don't see why their spell penetration would change either.

Grey Wolf

[Shining Wrath]

I'm trying to remember - are there any spells for which the word "ESCAPE" might plausibly be the verbal component?
I could see a Wish, as MitD expresses what he wants to see happen. Rich often but-not-always uses the spell name as the verbal component, which I think is a artistic license to let us know what spells are being cast.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm trying to remember - are there any spells for which the word "ESCAPE" might plausibly be the verbal component?
I could see a Wish, as MitD expresses what he wants to see happen. Rich often but-not-always uses the spell name as the verbal component, which I think is a artistic license to let us know what spells are being cast.

Sure, there is things like power word or command that allow you to give a single word activation. But none that then teleport you, at least none that have been ever suggested in this thread.

GW

[Qwertystop]

V didn't get bonuses to concentration from them or indeed any other help other than annoying voices only they (and Roy) could hear, and access to their spell slots. Yes, V's effective level included them, but that's to be expected: the expected level includes the whole party, and they got three companions of sorts. But all their other stats remained unmoved, so I don't see why their spell penetration would change either.

Grey Wolf

To play devil's advocate – caster level comes directly from the classes that provide the spell slots and which can be increased by a variety of other magic-enhancing effects, while Concentration is a skill and I don't think I've ever seen an effect other than an actual level-up that gives you temporary skill points to spend as you please. And it's (technically) separate from casting ability, in that a caster doesn't have to have high Concentration and a non-caster can absolutely take points in Concentration; it's just not usually a very good idea.

I could see the Soul Splice as using the stats and level of the provider of the relevant spell slot (effectively, them casting under your direction); I could also see it as giving you their spell slots and spell lists plus a temporary boost to caster level and using the better of their and your mental stats for all casting, without keeping each splice's abilities so separate from yours and each other's. Both seem reasonably plausible as potential rules for how this would work.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I could see the Soul Splice as using the stats and level of the provider of the relevant spell slot (effectively, them casting under your direction); I could also see it as giving you their spell slots and spell lists plus a temporary boost to caster level and using the better of their and your mental stats for all casting, without keeping each splice's abilities so separate from yours and each other's. Both seem reasonably plausible as potential rules for how this would work.

We see the first one happening when familicide is cast. It also matches the description from the fiends, that they are "under your control", rather than "combined into you" or whatever would take to add to your effective caster level. And energy drain would affect you just once, rather than once for every shard. Heck, one of the two guys outright says there that it is them that are casting (or not casting, as the case may be) No, they are quite clearly distinct, with their own spell slots, and your own character remains unchanged. You just get to "cast for them", maybe using their actual stats in place of your own, but they are alternatives, not additions.

The whole thing with "spells with duration expire", I suspect, is literally to counter an argument from powergamers that V should just have prepared all the buffs those guys knew, cast them all immediately, dismissed the shards, and thus limit their debt to the fiends to a handful of rounds. I really don't see why dismissing the shard would cause V's spells cast to also disappear - they've gone nowhere, unlike the shard that cast the others.

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

We see the first one happening when familicide is cast. It also matches the description from the fiends, that they are "under your control", rather than "combined into you" or whatever would take to add to your effective caster level. And energy drain would affect you just once, rather than once for every shard. Heck, one of the two guys outright says there that it is them that are casting (or not casting, as the case may be) No, they are quite clearly distinct, with their own spell slots, and your own character remains unchanged. You just get to "cast for them", maybe using their actual stats in place of your own, but they are alternatives, not additions.

The whole thing with "spells with duration expire", I suspect, is literally to counter an argument from powergamers that V should just have prepared all the buffs those guys knew, cast them all immediately, dismissed the shards, and thus limit their debt to the fiends to a handful of rounds. I really don't see why dismissing the shard would cause V's spells cast to also disappear - they've gone nowhere, unlike the shard that cast the others.

Grey Wolf

Fair point there, forgot some of that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Fair point there, forgot some of that.

NP. I wouldn't expect anyone to rattle off any of that, I had to re-read the whole sequence. It's not like we've had to figure this out before.

GW

[Keltest]

I really don't see why dismissing the shard would cause V's spells cast to also disappear - they've gone nowhere, unlike the shard that cast the others.

Grey Wolf

Didnt the spell slots used to cast those spells come from/get refreshed by being spliced? In some ways theyre as much of an effect of the splice as any of the spells cast from the splices.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Didnt the spell slots used to cast those spells come from/get refreshed by being spliced? In some ways theyre as much of an effect of the splice as any of the spells cast from the splices.

That is explicitly called out as a secondary effect, and the idea here is "the ongoing spell is still attached to the shard that cast it, which is now gone, thus so is its spell", but a spell cast from V's own slots would not go anywhere. Heck, all spells cast while Haerta was still attached should've stopped when she left, and that is obviously not the case (V still turns into a dragon after, for example - when they destroy Roy's golem). So it's not all ongoing spells that stop, only the ones cast by the shard that is no longer there.

Late ETA: the revitalization effect also heals V, and those wounds don't come back when the shards leave, so the revitalization of spells and HP is permanent, regardless. I don't think V lost her own re-vitalized spell slots.

Grey Wolf

[battlepengu]

We see the first one happening when familicide is cast. It also matches the description from the fiends, that they are "under your control", rather than "combined into you" or whatever would take to add to your effective caster level. And energy drain would affect you just once, rather than once for every shard. Heck, one of the two guys outright says there that it is them that are casting (or not casting, as the case may be) No, they are quite clearly distinct, with their own spell slots, and your own character remains unchanged. You just get to "cast for them", maybe using their actual stats in place of your own, but they are alternatives, not additions.

The whole thing with "spells with duration expire", I suspect, is literally to counter an argument from powergamers that V should just have prepared all the buffs those guys knew, cast them all immediately, dismissed the shards, and thus limit their debt to the fiends to a handful of rounds. I really don't see why dismissing the shard would cause V's spells cast to also disappear - they've gone nowhere, unlike the shard that cast the others.

Grey Wolf

Then I fall back to the closest we have to RAW, the exact words of the fiends: "Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will expire when the splices expire". They did not say any spells cast by the spliced souls, or any bonus spells, new spells, or anything like that. V also refers to themselves as a "gestalt being" while spliced, implying one being that is greater than the sum of its parts, which says to me that "spliced V", rules-wise, is an entirely new entity, and any spells they cast would expire when "spliced V" no longer exists. It does get tricky when one soul leaves, though, which is probably why this isn't a real game mechanic.

My last argument regarding duration is that it would just be way to unsatisfying to ever explain in-comic. "Hey remember when V was fighting Xykon and one of the spells missed? Well it totally hit someone else off-panel and continued being in effect even though 20 pages ago it was said that wouldn't work. Turns out, there was a big asterisk that we didn't see and only some spells don't linger!" That seems like more of an ass-pull than good storytelling to me.

One more thing I've noticed, since I apparently have a vendetta against this Dimensional Anchor, is that when V casts Dimensional Anchor, it's to the left of the big hole in the wall behind Xykon and V. O-Chul comes running from the right, where he was with MitD, and that's where Xykon aims in order to blast him. The anchor is being shot in the wrong direction to hit MitD.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then I fall back to the closest we have to RAW, the exact words of the fiends: "Any spell you cast with an ongoing duration will expire when the splices expire". They did not say any spells cast by the spliced souls, or any bonus spells, new spells, or anything like that.

They are explicitly talking about spells cast by the splices, since they are talking about limitations of the splices.

V also refers to themselves as a "gestalt being" while spliced, implying one being that is greater than the sum of its parts, which says to me that "spliced V", rules-wise, is an entirely new entity, and any spells they cast would expire when "spliced V" no longer exists. It does get tricky when one soul leaves, though, which is probably why this isn't a real game mechanic.

V is most definitely not an expert on the topic.

My last argument regarding duration is that it would just be way to unsatisfying to ever explain in-comic. "Hey remember when V was fighting Xykon and one of the spells missed? Well it totally hit someone else off-panel and continued being in effect even though 20 pages ago it was said that wouldn't work. Turns out, there was a big asterisk that we didn't see and only some spells don't linger!" That seems like more of an ass-pull than good storytelling to me.

Again: V still turned into a dragon even after Haerta left. So it is not every ongoing spell that gets ended when a splice leaves - only spells cast from that splice's spell slots. Which makes sense.

One more thing I've noticed, since I apparently have a vendetta against this Dimensional Anchor, is that when V casts Dimensional Anchor, it's to the left of the big hole in the wall behind Xykon and V. O-Chul comes running from the right, where he was with MitD, and that's where Xykon aims in order to blast him. The anchor is being shot in the wrong direction to hit MitD.

It's a round room, and everyone moves around a lot. "Left" and "right" make little sense in a 3d environment, when flattened into a 2D comic format. In fact, looking at it, I'd say V's anchor is shot "center-down", as Xykon moves in front of them rather than left or right.

Grey Wolf

[battlepengu]

They are explicitly talking about spells cast by the splices, since they are talking about limitations of the splices.

So is it only the splices that can't gain XP? That limitation seems to apply quite explicitly to V, why not the others?

ETA:

Again: V still turned into a dragon even after Haerta left. So it is not every ongoing spell that gets ended when a splice leaves - only spells cast from that splice's spell slots. Which makes sense.

Alternatively, V cast another shapechange to transform again (waste of a spell slot? Absolutely, though with 2 epic souls worth of 9ths remaining, I doubt it was a concern).

[Crusher]

So is it only the splices that can't gain XP? That limitation seems to apply quite explicitly to V, why not the others?

The splices are dead. I'm pretty sure dead spirits can't actually earn XP.

Edit - How do we know it was Haerta's Shapechange?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So is it only the splices that can't gain XP? That limitation seems to apply quite explicitly to V, why not the others?

Yes, V's effective level included them, but that's to be expected: the expected level includes the whole party, and they got three companions of sorts.

GW c

[battlepengu]

If V and all of the splices are being treated as separate party members, V should gain experience. I'm under the impression that experience in 3.5 is calculated per party member, so the souls wouldn't get any (both for being dead, and too high level), but as they're effectively dragging along a lower level member into a higher level conflict, that should cause V's experience to skyrocket, not stagnate. The whole stipulation of V not gaining XP seems to indicate that they and the souls are "one being" as far as rules are concerned. If the souls boost V's ECL, they're part of the same entity.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If V and all of the splices are being treated as separate party members, V should gain experience. I'm under the impression that experience in 3.5 is calculated per party member, so the souls wouldn't get any (both for being dead, and too high level), but as they're effectively dragging along a lower level member into a higher level conflict, that should cause V's experience to skyrocket, not stagnate. The whole stipulation of V not gaining XP seems to indicate that they and the souls are "one being" as far as rules are concerned. If the souls boost V's ECL, they're part of the same entity.

No, that's not what ECL is at all. ECL is the combined levels of the monsters in a single encounter that is sufficient to, on average, expect the party to spend a portion (a fifth?) of their resources to win - resources here being a combination of HP, spells slots, potions, etc. When V went from having X number of spell slots to 4X number of spell slots, and max level spell slots from N to N+5 of whatever, that shot up her ECL all the way up to epic, meaning that her chance of even finding such a group of monster is so unlikely as to be effectively 0. As Xykon pointed out, it's practically only the caves that give him a challenge enough to get XP out of the encounters, and on paper V was even higher ECL than he was.

The amount of XP you get is based on how far from ECL 1 the combat actually was - if it was easier, you get less than one encounter worth of experience for your level, if it was more, then you get more.

Grey Wolf

[Jaziggy]

I'm trying to remember - are there any spells for which the word "ESCAPE" might plausibly be the verbal component?
I could see a Wish, as MitD expresses what he wants to see happen. Rich often but-not-always uses the spell name as the verbal component, which I think is a artistic license to let us know what spells are being cast.

The tidiest fit for that scene is Wish or Reality Revision; which explicitly names the effect:

Transport travelers. This power can lift one creature per manifester/caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance/spell resistance (if any) applies.

There are *so* few creatures with this as an SLA that most people are willing to settle for teleport abilities. As far as I know there isn't a spell with an explicit verbal component or a spell called 'escape'.

I'm not generally credulous to the idea of the MitD being a true caster. It's hard to imagine how he could research, prepare, and cast a spell without knowledge of his ability to do so. Whatever power he used for the escape, in my mind it has to be an SLA.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Whatever power he used for the escape, in my mind it has to be an SLA.

* Or Su or Ex, although admittedly very few of those are anywhere near as powerful as SLAs.

GW

[Joerg]

Even if V's own spells don't expire after the splice, there is still the problem that the quickened dimensional anchor needs an 8th level spell slot, and V very probably didn't have those at that time. They didn't use an 8th level spell against the ABD, and they first used one in 716. There should have been plenty of XP for a level in between (the team-up with O-Chul, the slavers, the giant worm, story arc, roleplaying). Oh, and the ABD, who has researched V, mentions 6th and 7th level spells in 627, but not 8th level spells.

I could see Rich thinking that it was V's own spell slot, either not realizing that they don't have 8th level spells or not realizing that they would need one. But it's another stretch for the teleport that's already stretched with the anchor and the picking of the destination. I've always liked Wish much better as an explanation.

The problem is, of course, that so few creatures have access to Wish. In the FBS, it's only the Glabrezu, which is a demon.

Maybe the solution really is adding pseudonatural to a creature which has Wish but lacks strength or the circus look.

Pseudonatural child Ha-Naga?

[Throknor]

... the Glabrezu, which is a demon.

Yay!

Pseudonatural child Ha-Naga?

Not again!

[Doug Lampert]

If V and all of the splices are being treated as separate party members, V should gain experience. I'm under the impression that experience in 3.5 is calculated per party member, so the souls wouldn't get any (both for being dead, and too high level), but as they're effectively dragging along a lower level member into a higher level conflict, that should cause V's experience to skyrocket, not stagnate. The whole stipulation of V not gaining XP seems to indicate that they and the souls are "one being" as far as rules are concerned. If the souls boost V's ECL, they're part of the same entity.

I always assumed that V got casting like a multiclass character, and gained XP like a multiclass character.

A multiclass DOES NOT combine caster levels, or anything else about their spells. If V takes a level of sorcerer, then the sorcerer magic missile is one missile, at caster level 2 (1 for the level, 1 for blackwing's bauble) and if V casts that spell as a wizard, it is caster level 17 (16 for levels +1 for bauble) and has 5 missiles. But V with a sorcerer level would gain XP as a level 17 character.

V + three epic casters, casts as V, and as each of 3 epic casters. XP is as sum of levels, caster level is as the class that gave the slot being used to cast the spell; as is true for ANY other character.

Why V's spells from the splice should get some sort of combined casting benefit that DOES NOT APPLY if V actually HAD both classes and levels, escapes me entirely. And without that imaginary, V's slots are improved by the splice, the argument for duration ending goes POOF as far as I can tell.

[battlepengu]

Even if V's own spells don't expire after the splice, there is still the problem that the quickened dimensional anchor needs an 8th level spell slot, and V very probably didn't have those at that time. They didn't use an 8th level spell against the ABD, and they first used one in 716. There should have been plenty of XP for a level in between (the team-up with O-Chul, the slavers, the giant worm, story arc, roleplaying). Oh, and the ABD, who has researched V, mentions 6th and 7th level spells in 627, but not 8th level spells.

I could see Rich thinking that it was V's own spell slot, either not realizing that they don't have 8th level spells or not realizing that they would need one. But it's another stretch for the teleport that's already stretched with the anchor and the picking of the destination. I've always liked Wish much better as an explanation.

Thanks for bringing this back up, I completely got myself distracted from one of the stronger points against Dimensional Anchor working here! Does anyone have good reason to think V would have access to an 8th level spell slot at this point? Those are good points to the contrary, but I'm biased

[Joerg]

And without that imaginary, V's slots are improved by the splice, the argument for duration ending goes POOF as far as I can tell.

It doesn't because that spell in all probability didn't come from V's slots, but from one of the splices. Because V couldn't cast 8th level spells at that time.

[Peelee]

It doesn't because that spell in all probability didn't come from V's slots, but from one of the splices. Because V couldn't cast 8th level spells at that time.

I thought we were taking about Dimensional Anchor, I must have missed something. Which spell are you referring to?

ETA: Nevermind, forgot it was Quickened.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I thought we were taking about Dimensional Anchor, I must have missed something. Which spell are you referring to?

V cast a quickened dimensional anchor, and quickened, for reasons beyond my understanding, is a ludicrous +4 level metamagic.

GW