MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Peelee]

V cast a quickened dimensional anchor, and quickened, for reasons beyond my understanding, is a ludicrous +4 level metamagic.

GW

Jynx, you owe me a coke.

Anyway, the +4level botheres me less than the "upgrades it to a full-round action as far as sorcerers are concerned."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Anyway, the +4level botheres me less than the "upgrades it to a full-round action as far as sorcerers are concerned."

"...unless they've dropped the familiar like the poor single-skill-booster it is"

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

"...unless they've dropped the familiar like the poor single-skill-booster it is"

Grey Wolf

"...because we need even more ways to cripple the sorcerer class"

[Ruck]

* Or Su or Ex, although admittedly very few of those are anywhere near as powerful as SLAs.

GW

I assume there's a creature with Wish or Reality Revision as an Ex, but I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

[Jasdoif]

V cast a quickened dimensional anchor, and quickened, for reasons beyond my understanding, is a ludicrous +4 level metamagic.

Anyway, the +4level botheres me less than the "upgrades it to a full-round action as far as sorcerers are concerned."

Actions are the most valuable resource in the game; and the system simply isn't granular enough to find a good spot between "ridiculously overpriced" and "ridiculously overpowered".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actions are the most valuable resource in the game; and the system simply isn't granular enough to find a good spot between "ridiculously overpriced" and "ridiculously overpowered".

Yes, I appreciate actions are valuable, but when you can ensure you roll all 6s in your fireball with a mere +3, I find the idea that getting a second fireball in the turn instead would take +4 a bit suspicious.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

Actions are the most valuable resource in the game; and the system simply isn't granular enough to find a good spot between "ridiculously overpriced" and "ridiculously overpowered".

Yes, I appreciate actions are valuable, but when you can ensure you roll all 6s in your fireball with a mere +3, I find the idea that getting a second fireball in the turn instead would take +4 a bit suspicious.

Well, two fireballs would average out to all 7s on a single fireball, so a +3 on quicken would also look suspicious. This is that granularity thing I was talking about....


But less boringly....You could do a maximized fireball (or delayed blast fireball, for the higher max damage and DC) and a quickened fireball in the same round, and not even have to decide on the latter until you see how well the former did the job. Or a cone of cold and a quickened fireball, if you find yourself facing an unknown/unequal set of resistances. Or if someone's readied their action against spellcasting, they can only attempt to disrupt one of your two spells.

Usually you'd want to plan something more synergistic, though; after all you spent a feat on Quicken Spell. Off the top of my head, a quickened stinking cloud: nausea is very debilitating because it limits you to a single move action each turn, stinking cloud's nausea effect lasts multiple rounds after you get out of the cloud, and even if you save at first you have to make another save if you're still in the cloud on your next turn; so it combines very well with spells that make it hard to get out of the cloud, like web or (mass) hold person...particularly since ending hold person spells early requires a full-round action, which you can't take if you're nauseated.

[Charybdis136]

Yes, I appreciate actions are valuable, but when you can ensure you roll all 6s in your fireball with a mere +3, I find the idea that getting a second fireball in the turn instead would take +4 a bit suspicious.

Grey Wolf

If you are trying to balance a wizard and using evocation to justify the worth of quicken spell, then you are missing what makes wizards broken in 3.5. Action economy is literally all that matters on a wizard, they have countless save or lose spells (save or useless is just as good as save or die mechanically). Getting 2 save or lose spells off round 1 can end a battle instantly. A wizard is tier 1 for a reason. Getting good quicken spell combos allows the wizard to make their own party members useless. A level 17 wizard can kill a party of 4 level 17 fighters/barbarians/Paladino's etc. Without much difficulty. Even just having defensive spells quickened can save you if you lose initiative. This is getting a little off topic but I think quicken needs a +4 otherwise it will be the only meta magic feat that matters (along with still and silent spell if you are rolling solo vs with a party)

[Ruck]

Heh, I was just thinking that one reason I like Wish/Reality Revision as the explanation for the Escape scene is that MITD didn't just teleport them far away or somewhere they'd be safe; he literally dropped Vaarsuvius and O-Chul on top of Hinjo. Which makes me think that the wish was worded something like "I want Mr. Stiffly and the elf to be back with Mr. Stiffly's friends, wherever they are."

I mean, it's not big enough to be considered a major clue, but I think the precise location where they arrived suggests something capable of being that specific. "Regardless of local conditions" in in Wish/Reality Revision's description for transporting travelers, after all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Heh, I was just thinking that one reason I like Wish/Reality Revision as the explanation for the Escape scene is that MITD didn't just teleport them far away or somewhere they'd be safe; he literally dropped Vaarsuvius and O-Chul on top of Hinjo. Which makes me think that the wish was worded something like "I want Mr. Stiffly and the elf to be back with Mr. Stiffly's friends, wherever they are."

As I said a few pages ago, the problem is that we know exactly how it was phrased, if it was a wish. It wasn't "I want Mr. Stiffly and the elf to be back with Mr. Stiffly's friends, wherever they are", it was "escape", and it was mighty agreeable of the fundamental force of magic to take such loose wish and turn it into "take Mr. Stiffly and the elf back to where the elf just teleported from".

GW

[Qwertystop]

If you are trying to balance a wizard and using evocation to justify the worth of quicken spell, then you are missing what makes wizards broken in 3.5. Action economy is literally all that matters on a wizard, they have countless save or lose spells (save or useless is just as good as save or die mechanically). Getting 2 save or lose spells off round 1 can end a battle instantly. A wizard is tier 1 for a reason. Getting good quicken spell combos allows the wizard to make their own party members useless. A level 17 wizard can kill a party of 4 level 17 fighters/barbarians/Paladino's etc. Without much difficulty. Even just having defensive spells quickened can save you if you lose initiative. This is getting a little off topic but I think quicken needs a +4 otherwise it will be the only meta magic feat that matters (along with still and silent spell if you are rolling solo vs with a party)

Yes, yes, we all know by now that casters are king in 3.5, but that's not the point. The people who were actually writing the rules didn't seem to feel that way at the time of writing, especially for earlier books. Look at how the metamagic for blasting costs more, or the way specialization considers Divination weakest, or the original prestige classes for casters. Archmage has "permanantly lose a 9th-level spell slot to get the ability to spend spells on ranged single-target attacks that are weaker than comparable AOE evocations", Heirophant is similarly underwhelming and similarly overvaluing healing/damage, and most of the other early caster prestiges are just "your normal spell progression plus archer/melee/rogue stuff". So that's the argument that's relevant to their actual design process: Whether it breaks big, flashy, blow-stuff-up effects.

[Ruck]

As I said a few pages ago, the problem is that we know exactly how it was phrased, if it was a wish. It wasn't "I want Mr. Stiffly and the elf to be back with Mr. Stiffly's friends, wherever they are", it was "escape", and it was mighty agreeable of the fundamental force of magic to take such loose wish and turn it into "take Mr. Stiffly and the elf back to where the elf just teleported from".

GW

With the caveat that I don't fully understand anything about D&D mechanics, I feel like something too specific in the actual words we heard MITD speak might have given it away. That said, a power like Detect Thoughts at will might have told him where Vaarsuvius came from and so he sent them there.

[b_jonas]

we know exactly how it was phrased, if it was a wish. […] it was "escape",

I specifically believe that the Escape probably wasn't a Wish. But on the chance that it is a Wish, I'd like to give a bit more leniency about the phrasing. Firstly, because the Hunters were surprised that the MitD speaks, we figured that he might have telepathic abilities. It's possible that the phrasing of the rules for the Wish spell are human-centric, like much of the core rules are, and a telepathic creature would be allowed to phrase a wish by telepathy. This is especially relevant because, even though the MitD in particular speaks, O-Chul just told him that he should start to think more, so it would fit the MitD's character development quite well if he started to “think” in the sense of using telepathy at this crucial moment. Secondly, by the time the Escape scene was published, the Giant was caring about the story more than just the rules, and he and his reader are familiar with Wishes from the popular depiction in Disney's Aladdin (the 1992 movie), in which Aladdin specifically Wishes to Escape from certain death without speaking. Also, while it doesn't help too much, the phrasing may have been “You need to leave. You need to ESCAPE.”

[Charybdis136]

Yes, yes, we all know by now that casters are king in 3.5, but that's not the point. The people who were actually writing the rules didn't seem to feel that way at the time of writing, especially for earlier books. Look at how the metamagic for blasting costs more, or the way specialization considers Divination weakest, or the original prestige classes for casters. Archmage has "permanantly lose a 9th-level spell slot to get the ability to spend spells on ranged single-target attacks that are weaker than comparable AOE evocations", Heirophant is similarly underwhelming and similarly overvaluing healing/damage, and most of the other early caster prestiges are just "your normal spell progression plus archer/melee/rogue stuff". So that's the argument that's relevant to their actual design process: Whether it breaks big, flashy, blow-stuff-up effects.

True enough. There are a lot of prestige classes/options for casters that are strictly bad. I believe they thought the game was more balanced than it is. Granted the game is designed so that the DM can alter it to fix any problems anyway. What really gets me is that they thought the monk was a good class. It has almost nothing good about it (besides some sick flavor/multiclass potential).

[b_jonas]

I suppose I should also explain why I believe that the Escape was not a Wish.

The Giant has said that he prefers not to have True Resurrection available in the OotS, because True Resurrection is a game mechanic bad for the narrative because it means no character can be so dead that they can't return. He made sure that the Order didn't have access to a teleport spell when they wanted to travel from the desert to near Kraagor's gate. For a while the Order couldn't even find a cleric to Resurrect Durkon. It looks like the narrative is making sure that Vaarsuvius and Durkon can't become too high level, because their magic would be overpowered then.

The Giant didn't specifically mention Wish in this context. But I expect that he also knows that Wish is too powerful, such as because it can also bridge the gap between a Resurrection and a True Resurrection. I expect that he doesn't want to give access to Wish lightly. If it turned out that the MitD has the power to just Wish for anything, then he could decide to take the story more or less to wherever he wants. That makes for a bad narrative, because anything could happen without the characters having to work for it. Yes, I know that even Wish has costs and limitations, but still, it's too powerful. It would be much better for the story if the MitD turns out to only has a much more specific ability, such as a Teleport spell. A Teleport effect, too, is powerful, and can delay the ending by teleporting away characters just when they would win or when they would be defeated, just as it saved Vaarsuvius. But it's much more specialized and limited, it probably can't just finish the story by Teleporting Xykon and Readcloak into a deadly environment, and the MitD has to actually find the right opportunity and the best way to use it.

This is also why I don't think the MitD can be a god. Any god would be too powerful, and would be able to decide the ending of the story too easily. The swirly eyes scene can still be a clue for us though, beacuse it lets us exclude most Construct, Undead, Plant and Ooze creatures from being candidates, except with a type-changing template, and except for robots specifically constructed to look like a realistic human by non-magical means, such as in Asimov's "Evidence", The Caves of Steel, Prelude to Foundation. The MitD's diet already excludes some of these, but not all.

Update: And it's why I don't really like the Protean and the Snorlax as MitD candidates. The Protean is a shapeshifter that can get access to lots of different magical abilities at any time, just by shifting to just the right shape. It does the Escape by shifting to something that can Teleport. The Snorlax has a move that can copy any other move at random. He happens to copy a Teleport move for the Escape. But this is a weaker objection than against a Wish or god, because it's not under the MitD's control enough, so he might not be able to shift to a good enough shape or copy a good move the next time he wants to help someone.

[Joerg]

As long as the MitD can't reproduce the effect, it's not so much of an issue that Wish is very powerful. The MitD is also notorious for not acting at all.

And there are creatures like the Zodar, which can use Wish just once.

[Ruck]

I suppose I should also explain why I believe that the Escape was not a Wish.

The Giant has said that he prefers not to have True Resurrection available in the OotS, because True Resurrection is a game mechanic bad for the narrative because it means no character can be so dead that they can't return. He made sure that the Order didn't have access to a teleport spell when they wanted to travel from the desert to near Kraagor's gate. For a while the Order couldn't even find a cleric to Resurrect Durkon. It looks like the narrative is making sure that Vaarsuvius and Durkon can't become too high level, because their magic would be overpowered then.

The Giant didn't specifically mention Wish in this context. But I expect that he also knows that Wish is too powerful, such as because it can also bridge the gap between a Resurrection and a True Resurrection. I expect that he doesn't want to give access to Wish lightly. If it turned out that the MitD has the power to just Wish for anything, then he could decide to take the story more or less to wherever he wants. That makes for a bad narrative, because anything could happen without the characters having to work for it. Yes, I know that even Wish has costs and limitations, but still, it's too powerful. It would be much better for the story if the MitD turns out to only has a much more specific ability, such as a Teleport spell. A Teleport effect, too, is powerful, and can delay the ending by teleporting away characters just when they would win or when they would be defeated, just as it saved Vaarsuvius. But it's much more specialized and limited, it probably can't just finish the story by Teleporting Xykon and Readcloak into a deadly environment, and the MitD has to actually find the right opportunity and the best way to use it.

This is also why I don't think the MitD can be a god. Any god would be too powerful, and would be able to decide the ending of the story too easily. The swirly eyes scene can still be a clue for us though, beacuse it lets us exclude most Construct, Undead, Plant and Ooze creatures from being candidates, except with a type-changing template, and except for robots specifically constructed to look like a realistic human by non-magical means, such as in Asimov's "Evidence", The Caves of Steel, Prelude to Foundation. The MitD's diet already excludes some of these, but not all.

Update: And it's why I don't really like the Protean and the Snorlax as MitD candidates. The Protean is a shapeshifter that can get access to lots of different magical abilities at any time, just by shifting to just the right shape. It does the Escape by shifting to something that can Teleport. The Snorlax has a move that can copy any other move at random. He happens to copy a Teleport move for the Escape. But this is a weaker objection than against a Wish or god, because it's not under the MitD's control enough, so he might not be able to shift to a good enough shape or copy a good move the next time he wants to help someone.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions.

• Wish isn't True Resurrection; "I assume the Giant also thinks this" isn't very convincing, especially given that he has specific reasons he thinks True Resurrection is narrative-breaking that may not apply to Wish if the power is used judiciously.
• It's quite clear that the MITD doesn't even know how he did it, so of course he can't just do it at any time.
• Given that even Xykon considers MITD an ultra-powerful trump card, "This species has too many powers" seems like an argument in favor of it, not against it.

I specifically believe that the Escape probably wasn't a Wish. But on the chance that it is a Wish, I'd like to give a bit more leniency about the phrasing. Firstly, because the Hunters were surprised that the MitD speaks, we figured that he might have telepathic abilities. It's possible that the phrasing of the rules for the Wish spell are human-centric, like much of the core rules are, and a telepathic creature would be allowed to phrase a wish by telepathy. This is especially relevant because, even though the MitD in particular speaks, O-Chul just told him that he should start to think more, so it would fit the MitD's character development quite well if he started to “think” in the sense of using telepathy at this crucial moment. Secondly, by the time the Escape scene was published, the Giant was caring about the story more than just the rules, and he and his reader are familiar with Wishes from the popular depiction in Disney's Aladdin (the 1992 movie), in which Aladdin specifically Wishes to Escape from certain death without speaking. Also, while it doesn't help too much, the phrasing may have been “You need to leave. You need to ESCAPE.”

That is closer to what I was trying to say, yeah. With, of course, the storytelling reason that it might have been too obvious what power MITD used if he phrased the Wish out loud in the way he would need to in order to produce this result.

[Doug Lampert]

I assume there's a creature with Wish or Reality Revision as an Ex, but I wouldn't even know where to begin looking.

Zodar. Looking online I find:

Wish (Su): Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice. None has ever been known to actually use this ability more than once in a century. Even when the effect of the wish is of great importance, it is likely to be subtle and largely unrecognized as the work of the zodar.

[Ruck]

Zodar. Looking online I find:

Wish (Su): Once per year, a zodar can alter reality as if it had just cast a wish spell as a sorcerer of the same level as its Hit Dice. None has ever been known to actually use this ability more than once in a century. Even when the effect of the wish is of great importance, it is likely to be subtle and largely unrecognized as the work of the zodar.

Supernatural isn't Extraordinary, unfortunately.

[b_jonas]

It's quite clear that the MITD doesn't even know how he did it, so of course he can't just do it at any time.

He doesn't know right now. But he's probably in the story to do something important in the future, so he will figure out how to use his powers.

[Ruck]

He doesn't know right now. But he's probably in the story to do something important in the future, so he will figure out how to use his powers.

Yes, at the reveal near the climax of the series, at which point his massive powers will be critical for the good guys.

[Magesmiley]

The tidiest fit for that scene is Wish or Reality Revision; which explicitly names the effect:

Transport travelers. This power can lift one creature per manifester/caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and power resistance/spell resistance (if any) applies.

There are *so* few creatures with this as an SLA that most people are willing to settle for teleport abilities. As far as I know there isn't a spell with an explicit verbal component or a spell called 'escape'.

I'm not generally credulous to the idea of the MitD being a true caster. It's hard to imagine how he could research, prepare, and cast a spell without knowledge of his ability to do so. Whatever power he used for the escape, in my mind it has to be an SLA.

Psionic powers fit. Nothing prevents someone from saying something while manifesting a power. It's part of why I'm fairly convinced at this point that MitD has psionic abilities.

[BarnZarn]

This might have been mentioned already, but I noticed that the MITD describes the Astral Plane on comic 833.
But doesn't remember when he was there. Any theories on that?

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Posts moved to current thread.

This might have been mentioned already, but I noticed that the MITD describes the Astral Plane on comic 833.
But doesn't remember when he was there. Any theories on that?

They have been mentioned, yes.

Section 1g: (Not) Seeing the Gates
MitD's inability to "see" the gates is felt by several participants to be a "clue" about MitD (rather than the alternative possibility, Rule of Funny). However, no explanation that ties MitD's species to the gates has been forthcoming, except when contemplating the idea of MitD being part of the Snarl.

Alternatively, it has been proposed that since the demiplane in which the Snarl is trapped is designed to null divine magic, and it is third-handedly established in SoD that the gods have difficulty in detecting the rifts, there might be some connection between MitD and the gods that makes him, too, unaware of the rift. Note, however, that MitD has an issue seeing the definitely-not-Snarl-related gate that Xykon installed to stop his zombies from walking into and being destroyed by the rift, so this connection is quite far-fetched.

Finally, it must be pointed out that MitD doesn't have a problem actually seeing the physical object that is the gate. Instead, his words seem to suggest that he doesn't know it is one. It has been suggested this might be because he thinks the only definition of "gate" is the portal that opens when the spell gate is cast. If he has been told that is a gate (and he probably had seen the spell before, when he previously saw the Astral Plane), he would be confused as to why he can't see one near the massive wooden thing Xykon and RC keep pointing at.

Section 2c: Other Characteristics

Spoiler

Show

Connection to the Astral Plane[spoiler]MitD seems to know the Astral Plane's characteristics.
Considerations:

• He doesn't remember having been there
• Xykon is surprised at this
• It could be just a successful knowledge roll, or that he was taken there at some point in the past
• In the past, it displayed extreme ignorance of the planes

[Magesmiley]

This might have been mentioned already, but I noticed that the MITD describes the Astral Plane on comic 833.
But doesn't remember when he was there. Any theories on that?

Yep. Gem dragon. Inherent planar travel ability. Comes from a family of planar travelers.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

[Crusher]

Yep. Gem dragon. Inherent planar travel ability. Comes from a family of planar travelers.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

Is Prismatic Dragon a Gem dragon?

[Darth Bobo]

No, he is explicitly standing there doing nothing, being gawked at (which he finds hard)

Grey Wolf

.... which in itself is a good point for the Protean, as it needs to make an effort to maintain form IIRC (sorry if this has already been discussed to death)

[Squire Doodad]

.... which in itself is a good point for the Protean, as it needs to make an effort to maintain form IIRC (sorry if this has already been discussed to death)

Yeah, the Protean can passively do something that merits reactions lets it completely mop the floor with the circus scene.

[Ruck]

.... which in itself is a good point for the Protean, as it needs to make an effort to maintain form IIRC (sorry if this has already been discussed to death)

Yeah, the Protean can passively do something that merits reactions lets it completely mop the floor with the circus scene.

I agree!

Come to think of it, Section 1b doesn't really hit on the range of reactions in the Circus Scene-- mostly disgust, true, but the kids love it and the one person says "And yet... beautiful..."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree!

Come to think of it, Section 1b doesn't really hit on the range of reactions in the Circus Scene-- mostly disgust, true, but the kids love it and the one person says "And yet... beautiful..."

It's in 2a - appearance. Section 1a is more for frequent issues that need dedicated, detailed explanations. No-one has ever really had a problem with the beautiful comment (I mean, we have a problem fulfilling it, but not what it means), but a lot of suggestions over the years have tried to explain the circus with terror, rather than disgust, thus it's mention in the 1b entry alongside "do nothing" and "unrecognizable".

Grey Wolf