MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Nail]

I have an idea, it's actually rather bad but based on this threads title I feel obligated to speculate. Is the Monster In the Darkness actually The Dark One? The darkness would let him slip back to his plane when he needed too, such as giving Jirix the message for Red Cloke. In the insane reality where this is true I would imagine the Dark One is a cloud kookoo lander who is faking being stupid.

Once again this isn't serious, but the thread IS subtitled 'The Other Dark One'

[mjasghar]

Divine being so immune to mind control

[Sir_Norbert]

Also something Rich made up for the story.

(I've always felt that, considering the spirit rather than the letter of Rich's "therblewurkersaurus" comment, things like The Dark One wouldn't strictly be ruled out, because they are in the space of things that people could reasonbly guess -- but it's undeniable that the letter of the comment would rule them out. Also, for me, an even stronger reason that rules things like that out is that they could have any stats Rich wants, so it wouldn't really be a fair answer to the guessing game since there's no correlation between the clues we're given and the eventual answer.)

[Magesmiley]

Quote Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs c.368
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

I've always taken Rich's comment about the fine line to mean that he took a monster that we would recognize and customized it. This could be things like adjusting feats and alignment, adding class levels, or fleshing out a creature that has to be customized (such as a dragon or vampire). The point is, by doing this, he fulfills it both being recognizable and it's also something that he made up. And all completely within the 3.5 rules.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I've always taken Rich's comment about the fine line to mean that he took a monster that we would recognize and customized it. This could be things like adjusting feats and alignment, adding class levels, or fleshing out a creature that has to be customized (such as a dragon or vampire). The point is, by doing this, he fulfills it both being recognizable and it's also something that he made up. And all completely within the 3.5 rules.

(Underline mine)

But he said he did NOT make it up, and it does not need to be recognizable to be guessable - in fact, those work against each another. A recognizable creature would be a very poor pick for a guessing game that was expected to last years.

The fine line simply acknowledges that a creature invented by another employee of TSR is still made up, and that for most of the world, "made up by TSR employee #34274" or "made up by TSR employee #654783" (one of which happens to be named Rich Burlew) is not much of a difference.

GW

[Worldsong]

Given that Rich clearly expects it to be something that people could recognize I highly doubt he modified MitD in any way. Otherwise any clues demonstrated in the comic would suddenly become unreliable as you'd have to wonder whether that clue is part of the creature we're supposed to recognize or a custom feature Rich added.

[b_jonas]

The fine line simply acknowledges that a creature invented by another employee of TSR is still made up, and that for most of the world, "made up by TSR employee #34274" or "made up by TSR employee #654783" (one of which happens to be named Rich Burlew) is not much of a difference.

That is one possible explanation. I think there's another possible meaning though. The MitD could be a type of monster that does not have a full D&D 3.5 stat block, and was likely never statted for D&D (as far as the Giant knew at the time). The original source doesn't give enough details about the monster, eg. it might say that it is strong enough to cause earthquakes that break the walls of buildings, but not an exact strength score or whether it could break the stone wall of a tower in a single hit, or perhaps it doesn't say what color its eyes are. So the Giant had to make up some of the properties that the original source didn't specify, and in those parts it's something he made up himself.

[Fyraltari]

That is one possible explanation. I think there's another possible meaning though.

My own reading is that from the reader's point of view, there's no difference between a monster The Giant made up for the story and a D&D monster they've never heard of.

If Monster-san had been revealed three months ago to have been a xenocrysth, how many people on the forum, how many reader, would have gone "ah yes, that makes complete sense" as opposed to "a what?"

[LeSwordfish]

My own reading is that from the reader's point of view, there's no difference between a monster The Giant made up for the story and a D&D monster they've never heard of.

If Monster-san had been revealed three months ago to have been a xenocrysth, how many people on the forum, how many reader, would have gone "ah yes, that makes complete sense" as opposed to "a what?"

This is what I personally suspect. It's not impossible that this whole thing has got away from the Giant and he never expected it to reach an audience that have no clue what an Abboleth is or whatever, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on something plot-relevant (son of snarl, The Dark One, one of the Eastern Gods, that kind of thing) over the - to pick a name at random from the front page - Glabrezu - because waiting donkey's years for a reveal when you know a high proportion of your audience will go "a what" is just shoddier storytelling than I've come to expect from the Giant. It's like if Darth Vader's big reveal had been "Your father is Kyle Katarn!" - that's as meaningless a name as Frank Smith to most people, and a Glabrezu is just a generic monster to me.

[Keltest]

My take on that line has been that he is drawing a distinction between something he made up (which we have no way of guessing) and something that somebody else made up (which could potentially be extremely obscure, but which we could have heard about and therefore can guess). Theyre both made up, but if Rich was able to hear about it, something that somebody else made up is technically guessable, whereas something he made up is not.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is what I personally suspect. It's not impossible that this whole thing has got away from the Giant and he never expected it to reach an audience that have no clue what an Abboleth is or whatever, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on something plot-relevant (son of snarl, The Dark One, one of the Eastern Gods, that kind of thing) over the - to pick a name at random from the front page - Glabrezu - because waiting donkey's years for a reveal when you know a high proportion of your audience will go "a what" is just shoddier storytelling than I've come to expect from the Giant. It's like if Darth Vader's big reveal had been "Your father is Kyle Katarn!" - that's as meaningless a name as Frank Smith to most people, and a Glabrezu is just a generic monster to me.

No, this analysis is incorrect. MitD is more than his species. MitD is a character, one which we've seen develop over the comic. It will not be shoddy storytelling if not a single person knows what his species is because what his species is is irrelevant to who MitD is. The Snarl, the Dark One, the Eastern Gods, all those are things Rich invented for this comic and thus we have the author's word it is not one of those.

And the Darth Vader example is just bizarre, since it was never supposed to be a guessing game to figure out who Darth Vader was.

Grey Wolf

[LeSwordfish]

No, this analysis is incorrect. MitD is more than his species. MitD is a character, one which we've seen develop over the comic. It will not be shoddy storytelling if not a single person knows what his species is because what his species is is irrelevant to who MitD is. The Snarl, the Dark One, the Eastern Gods, all those are things Rich invented for this comic and thus we have the author's word it is not one of those.

And the Darth Vader example is just bizarre, since it was never supposed to be a guessing game to figure out who Darth Vader was.

Grey Wolf

But his species is what is being revealed? The other things about him are important to him and his character, but the species - or true identity - is what the mystery is. Are you saying the mystery isnt important to the reader? I don't know how much the general readership cares about this but they will be at least nonplussed by a bit where the MITD finally steps out of the shadow and is revealed to be...!

...Gribbly and spiky? Kind of greenish? Is that some kind of ogre?

[b_jonas]

And the Darth Vader example is just bizarre, since it was never supposed to be a guessing game to figure out who Darth Vader was.

Darth Vader's identity was a guessing game between Star Wars episode V and episode VI, in the sense that viewers didn't know whether he really was Luke's father, or was lying about that to Luke. For reference, see the annotation of Darths & Droids webcomic #1153 (strip has heavy spoilers for the comic so read the relevant part of the annotation below instead).

Spoiler: Darths & Droids #1153 annotation

Show

Picture the year 1980. There were no mobile phones, there were no iPods, there were no CDs, there was no Internet. There were barely even personal computers.

Three years earlier, a movie had changed the world. Now, in 1980, the sequel was released, to levels of anticipation never seen before for a film. The Empire Strikes Back.

Picture the crowds of people emerging from the cinemas in 1980. They had just watched one of the most shocking revelations that any audience has ever witnessed. Here's what they were saying about it:

• I can't believe it. There's no way Darth Vader could be Luke's father!
  
  No, it can't be true. Vader is lying.
  
  I don't know, what if it is true??
  
  No way! He's got to be lying!

A lot of people simply didn't believe it. Others argued that it was probably true. The thing is: nobody knew. People left that movie shocked, horrified, and not knowing what to believe. And they would not find out the truth for three whole years.

[Fyraltari]

But his species is what is being revealed? The other things about him are important to him and his character, but the species - or true identity - is what the mystery is. Are you saying the mystery isnt important to the reader? I don't know how much the general readership cares about this but they will be at least nonplussed by a bit where the MITD finally steps out of the shadow and is revealed to be...!

...Gribbly and spiky? Kind of greenish? Is that some kind of ogre?

The species of the Monster in the Dark will be important yes, but it also most likely will be explained (probably to the Mitd, himself even) and as such the answer to the mystery is probablly important, but not the mystery itslef. In a murder mystery most characters are invested in knowing the murderer's identity, but here, I'd say only O-chul and Mitd hismelf only really cares, and they both have bigger fishes to fry.

In my opinion, the guessing game is ultimately just that, a game between The Giant and part of his audience. The part that is invested enough in D&D to have an actual shot of figuring out what the monster is ahead of time. But wether they eventually do so is irrelevant to the story (and I'd wager the guess that the discussions making plenty of players aware of cool monsters they might not have heard of otherwise is already a success in The Giant's eyes).

I don't play D&D, so I don't expect to figure out what the MitD is. This means that when the darkness is finally lifted I won't be able to say "Ah! Called it!" but I won't have lost much compared to whoever had guessed right.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But his species is what is being revealed? The other things about him are important to him and his character, but the species - or true identity - is what the mystery is. Are you saying the mystery isnt important to the reader? I don't know how much the general readership cares about this but they will be at least nonplussed by a bit where the MITD finally steps out of the shadow and is revealed to be...!

...Gribbly and spiky? Kind of greenish? Is that some kind of ogre?

The mystery is not part of the story. This is not a whodunnit. This game is a side game. Claiming that it will be "shoddy" storytelling if you don't recognize the species is bad analysis, because the story is not about MitD figuring out what his species is, it is about figuring out who he is, who his friends are and where he stands. The "mystery" is whether he'll continue to be a lapdog for people who are not his friends, or whether he will stand up for himself and for those who are his true friends. That is, admittedly, not much of a mystery because Rich is not writing a grimdark post-ap distopia headed for a hopeless ending. But that is MitD's arc. Whether he turns out to be something every reader recognizes, or only Rich recognises, is irrelevant to the story, because we already know what MitD is: a good man.

So yes, I am saying that the mystery of his species is not important to the reader. Rich assured us that there is an answer, and that he expects someone to figure it out. But he doesn't expect everyone to figure it out. Which implies that it is hard enough that dedicated fans will be challenged, which pretty much requires him to have picked the most obscure creature that otherwise fit the role that MitD needs to play in the story.

Darth Vader's identity was a guessing game between Star Wars episode V and episode VI, in the sense that viewers didn't know whether he really was Luke's father, or was lying about that to Luke. For reference, see the annotation of Darths & Droids webcomic #1153 (strip has heavy spoilers for the comic so read the relevant part of the annotation below instead).

So yes, still a bad analogy to MitD's situation. It is neither the same scenario, nor under the same rules or assurances, just fans being fans trying to deny a plot twist.

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

Given that Rich clearly expects it to be something that people could recognize I highly doubt he modified MitD in any way. Otherwise any clues demonstrated in the comic would suddenly become unreliable as you'd have to wonder whether that clue is part of the creature we're supposed to recognize or a custom feature Rich added.

While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure about the premise. And although Grey Wolf kinda covered this already, one thing I wanted to mention is that the "people could recognize [MITD]" argument rests on a premise nobody has agreed upon: Which people? The people who casually check in every couple of months to catch up on the story? The hardcore D&D people? The 2% (I think) of readers who buy all the books and other printed material?

The readership of OOTS is pretty well scattered as far as knowledge of D&D, so the expectation that "People could recognize" MITD needs to be premised on which people.

Obviously what some people consider recognizable is a great deal different from other people. For example, I've seen multiple times over the years guesses in this thread that MITD must be a Tarrasque because it's so iconic, but... iconic to whom? I didn't know what a Tarrasque was until I started reading this thread.

As Grey Wolf said, what's important to the MITD's species is not how recognizable it will be to the reader, nor even that MITD is secretly another plot element: It's about who the MITD is and how his species reflects his character journey.

[Fyraltari]

While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure about the premise. And although Grey Wolf kinda covered this already, one thing I wanted to mention is that the "people could recognize [MITD]" argument rests on a premise nobody has agreed upon: Which people? The people who casually check in every couple of months to catch up on the story? The hardcore D&D people? The 2% (I think) of readers who buy all the books and other printed material?

Well, in order to be able to recognize the MitD, one must be familiar with a lot of obscure monsters created for D&D more than a decade ago and it helps to have all the clues possible.

So I’d say, the hardcore D&D people who have read SoD (I don’t think MitD appears in any other prequel book).

[Ruck]

Well, in order to be able to recognize the MitD, one must be familiar with a lot of obscure monsters created for D&D more than a decade ago and it helps to have all the clues possible.

So I’d say, the hardcore D&D people who have read SoD (I don’t think MitD appears in any other prequel book).

Sure, maybe, but then that makes the argument that "The MITD must be well-known enough to be recognizable" a bit tautological-- the hardcore people who have researched the clues for a decade+ will probably at this point recognize MITD's species whatever it turns out to be.

[Worldsong]

While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure about the premise. And although Grey Wolf kinda covered this already, one thing I wanted to mention is that the "people could recognize [MITD]" argument rests on a premise nobody has agreed upon: Which people? The people who casually check in every couple of months to catch up on the story? The hardcore D&D people? The 2% (I think) of readers who buy all the books and other printed material?

The readership of OOTS is pretty well scattered as far as knowledge of D&D, so the expectation that "People could recognize" MITD needs to be premised on which people.

Obviously what some people consider recognizable is a great deal different from other people. For example, I've seen multiple times over the years guesses in this thread that MITD must be a Tarrasque because it's so iconic, but... iconic to whom? I didn't know what a Tarrasque was until I started reading this thread.

As Grey Wolf said, what's important to the MITD's species is not how recognizable it will be to the reader, nor even that MITD is secretly another plot element: It's about who the MITD is and how his species reflects his character journey.

Given how Rich's statement implied that he didn't expect it to become common knowledge it seems a reasonably safe assumption that it's something obscure, but I would expect him to be fair and make it something that can be found in official sources. The alternative is not impossible but I'd bet against it if only because it'd be a bit lame if the revelation came and it turned out that Rich was betting on someone having encountered some obscure homebrew creature which isn't referenced anywhere in the official material.

[Ruck]

Given how Rich's statement implied that he didn't expect it to become common knowledge it seems a reasonably safe assumption that it's something obscure, but I would expect him to be fair and make it something that can be found in official sources. The alternative is not impossible but I'd bet against it if only because it'd be a bit lame if the revelation came and it turned out that Rich was betting on someone having encountered some obscure homebrew creature which isn't referenced anywhere in the official material.

Yeah, I agree with that. (Also another reason "recognizable" is not a standard I like, because it's not quantifiable and means different things to different people. "Can be found in official sourcebooks" vs. "Cannot be found in official sourcebooks" is a definite and quantifiable line.)

[Jaziggy]

The mystery is not part of the story. This is not a whodunnit. This game is a side game. Claiming that it will be "shoddy" storytelling if you don't recognize the species is bad analysis, because the story is not about MitD figuring out what his species is, it is about figuring out who he is, who his friends are and where he stands.

Grey Wolf

I agree with this, for the most part. That said, I think it's important to separate the guessing game from the mystery- virtually every reader is curious what the MitD is. If the result of the guessing game is somehow disappointing, that's different from if the mystery of MitD's identity is disappointing.

If MitD doesn't perfectly fit The Big Scenes according to 3.5 rules, most readers won't really care. If it's obscure and they have to look it up, I doubt they'll much care either- I can't say I've been able to identify every major foe the Order has fought. What will fall flat is if it's, for lack of a better word, dumb.

"The MitD is the darkness inside us all!"
"The MitD is O'Chul's long lost brother!"
"The MitD is a Ha-Naga!" (I kid, I kid)
"The real MitD is the friends we made along the way."

[Savil]

Huh, I always thought the fine line statement has a single interpretation, yet here I see several versions that are different from my view of the most obvious explanation. Oh well, one more, one less. I'll try to explain what I understand as "fine line".

We consider MitD as two aspects:
MitD the species - which is something Rich didn't make up
and
MitD the character - which is something Rich DID make up.

The fine line lies somewhere in the mixture of species traits and individual traits. However, we perceive both aspects of MitD as a whole, they can't be clearly separated, so MitD in OotS is both something Rich made up and didn't make up; thus, the need for his statement.
For example, is a protean who maintains his form to please his friends something Rich made up? Is a glabrezu who performs tea ceremonies something Rich made up? Is a xenocrysth who prefers common speech to telepathy something Rich made up? Well, yes and no, depending on the reader's view, it's a fine line.

tl;dr - a (for example) protean is something Rich didn't make up, yet there will always be a reader who will call the guessing game unfair because Mitch the protean is something made up for the story; thus the statement

[Xhosant]

Personally, I think the fine line means "both are fictional, so YMMV, but for what it might be worth, it's someone else's fictional creation".

Boring, I know.

[littlebum2002]

(Underline mine)

But he said he did NOT make it up, and it does not need to be recognizable to be guessable - in fact, those work against each another. A recognizable creature would be a very poor pick for a guessing game that was expected to last years.

The fine line simply acknowledges that a creature invented by another employee of TSR is still made up, and that for most of the world, "made up by TSR employee #34274" or "made up by TSR employee #654783" (one of which happens to be named Rich Burlew) is not much of a difference.

GW

Here's a question: who made up the character of Thor in this comic? The ancient Norwiegans didn't, because the Thor they made up didn't use things like voicemail. Marvel didn't, because the Thor in their comics wasn't a deity worshiped by dwarves. Rich Burlew didn't, because the character of Thor in the comic relies heavily on things that the ancient Norweigans and marvel comic writers made up about other characters named Thor.

So who made him up? Well, you could say that it's a "fine line" to determine the answer to that question. SO i agree with Magesmiley: The MitD is a Rich-customized version of a previously existing character.

While I agree with your conclusion, I'm not sure about the premise. And although Grey Wolf kinda covered this already, one thing I wanted to mention is that the "people could recognize [MITD]" argument rests on a premise nobody has agreed upon: Which people? The people who casually check in every couple of months to catch up on the story? The hardcore D&D people? The 2% (I think) of readers who buy all the books and other printed material?

The readership of OOTS is pretty well scattered as far as knowledge of D&D, so the expectation that "People could recognize" MITD needs to be premised on which people.

Obviously what some people consider recognizable is a great deal different from other people. For example, I've seen multiple times over the years guesses in this thread that MITD must be a Tarrasque because it's so iconic, but... iconic to whom? I didn't know what a Tarrasque was until I started reading this thread.

As Grey Wolf said, what's important to the MITD's species is not how recognizable it will be to the reader, nor even that MITD is secretly another plot element: It's about who the MITD is and how his species reflects his character journey.

It's important to remember who was reading this webcomic when the MitD was created. It didn't have the same readership it has today. I would argue that the amount of "casual" readers who were around for the first 50 strips were probably in the double digits, at most. These were people who were in this forum solely because they were so deeply involved with D&D that they hung out in a forum created by the runner up in a D&D setting contest. So when the MitD was created to be guessed, it was created to be guessed by the most hardcore of D&D players. Therefore, I think when he is eventually revealed, it shouldn't be that much of a surprise if he isn't recognized by 90% of the people who now read this comic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here's a question: who made up the character of Thor in this comic? The ancient Norwiegans didn't, because the Thor they made up didn't use things like voicemail. Marvel didn't, because the Thor in their comics wasn't a deity worshiped by dwarves. Rich Burlew didn't, because the character of Thor in the comic relies heavily on things that the ancient Norweigans and marvel comic writers made up about other characters named Thor.

So who made him up? Well, you could say that it's a "fine line" to determine the answer to that question. SO i agree with Magesmiley: The MitD is a Rich-customized version of a previously existing character.

The difference between how much Rich has modified pre-existing characters for use in his comic and MitD is that every other character is not part of a game where he expects someone to figure out what their species is. Yes, MitD could be a minotaur who Rich has given "blink others" ability and a Sandal of Earth Cracking +2, but then he would not assure anyone that it can be figured out.

More crucially, this is not about characters, but about species*. Rich did not invent D&D deities - the rules are in the manual, and list how to build your own, but start with basic things such as immunity to mind control, and minotaurs have powerful charges and natural cunning. The character is up to Rich, but the base creature is not. So there is a difference between "OotS Thor is a Rich creation" and "D&D deities are a Rich creation". The first is true, but irrelevant to this thread, the second one is not true, and very relevant to this thread.

Grey Wolf

*In the very specific meaning which counts deities, vermin groups, undead creations and a bunch of other things as "species", and yes, I understand I am using the term quite wrong, but not sure I can think of a better one that doesn't come with its own pitfalls.

[littlebum2002]

The difference between how much Rich has modified pre-existing characters for use in his comic and MitD is that every other character is not part of a game where he expects someone to figure out what their species is. Yes, MitD could be a minotaur who Rich has given "blink others" ability and a Sandal of Earth Cracking +2, but then he would not assure anyone that it can be figured out.

More crucially, this is not about characters, but about species. Rich did not invent D&D deities - the rules are in the manual, and list how to build your own, but start with basic things such as immunity to mind control. The name is up to Rich, but the base creature is not. So there is a difference between "OotS Thor is a Rich creation" and "D&D deities are a Rich creation". The first is true, but irrelevant to this thread, the second one is not true, and very relevant to this thread.

Grey Wolf

But we already know that Rich modified the species of whatever the MitD is, by giving him the ability to speak common. So that is what i think Rich is referring to: He didn't create the species, he just modified it (like he modified EVERYTHING else he borrowed from others) to use in his strip.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But we already know that Rich modified the species of whatever the MitD is, by giving him the ability to speak common.

No, we don't know that. For example, if MitD is a species that normally only communicates via telepathy, it'd be surprising it spoke, without Rich needing to have changed the creature. Sure, we assume that's what the hunters' scene might be implying, but assumption is not certainty, and those creatures that fit without needing to be modified thus fit a bit better.

GW

[Ruck]

Huh, I always thought the fine line statement has a single interpretation, yet here I see several versions that are different from my view of the most obvious explanation. Oh well, one more, one less. I'll try to explain what I understand as "fine line".

We consider MitD as two aspects:
MitD the species - which is something Rich didn't make up
and
MitD the character - which is something Rich DID make up.

Yeah, that's basically it. Or as I've said before, Rich made up Roy Greenhilt and Durkon Thundershield and Xykon, but he didn't make up human fighters or dwarven clerics or lich sorcerers.

[Lombard]

Everyone agrees MitD is a great character, but many draw the line at believing this sentient being could have class levels.

[Xhosant]

Everyone agrees MitD is a great character, but many draw the line at believing this sentient being could have class levels.

It's not that it could that's the issue, it's that it would breach the rules of engagement as percieved. Many feel said rules are 'unmodified published statblock'.

On another note, I think we've been assuming the circus scene might reflect a passive save-or-be-disgusted ability, but the children seem unaffected, and you'd assume they have a lower save bonus.

So what if the creature is something naturally, non-mechanically disgusting, with a low save to percieve it as not?