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Thread: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
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2020-10-08, 03:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Everyone keeps using the word creature for MitF. Meaning apparently that MitD can't have class levels. MitD is different in this respect than OoTS and Team Evil. In this respect MiTD is more like the familiars and animal companions. If it turns out this underlying assumption was wrong all along, it'd be very interesting in the context of the OoTS comic as a whole. For my own part I think of MitD as much more of a person than a creature at this point. Regardless of what's going on under that umbrella.
"For you see, I theorize that the halfling does not possess a true sentient brain, like you or I, but rather a simple lump of nerve tissue that serves as a primitive "proto-brain" that can only process two emotional reactions to people: Hate or Lust."
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2020-10-08, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-08, 04:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Last edited by Ruck; 2020-10-08 at 04:45 PM.
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2020-10-08, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-08, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Wrong. Our "proof" is based in the literal RAW description of the Protean.
Alter Shape (Ex)
A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks). Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a hagunemnon assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action. However, it may substitute a melee attack form for one of its slam attacks, using its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage, but dealing base damage appropriate to the attack type.Last edited by Ruck; 2020-10-08 at 10:52 PM.
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2020-10-08, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
And to be clear, this is what the actual shapechanging ability looks like:
Originally Posted by doppelganger
Originally Posted by Change Shape
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2020-10-08, 11:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Another example: The Protean can't change its own stats, unless an Ex ability exists that does so (stats are not themselves an Ex ability), which seems if anything even more unlikely than arbitrary necessary magic-as-Ex (because why not just write the monster as having higher stats). Its stats are pretty high, sure, but if we work something out where MitD needs 40 Int? Nope. Turns out to be significantly weakened by an Antimagic Field (we haven't yet seen MitD in one, after all)? Sorry, Ex abilities aren't magic, and aren't affected by antimagic; a Protean would be almost entirely unaffected. Poisoned by a Dex-reducing poison and is paralyzed within a few rounds? Not happening to the Protean.
There's plenty of things – not just specific things, broad categories of things – that it can't do. It avoids the need for most of them by also having a pile of other specific-but-generally-useful things (lots of hit dice, high stats, darkvision, regeneration, DR, natural armor, and spell resistance), but if it needs more of any of those, or we specifically learn it doesn't have one of them, that's a mark against the Protean.Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-10-08 at 11:10 PM.
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2020-10-08, 11:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
And unlike those forms of shapechanging, the Protean's Alter Shape specifically says it retains all its special qualities (merely gaining a handful of abilities), instead of entirely taking the form and traits of the new creature it has shifted into.
edit: and Qwertystop emerges from the pack to beat my pony in a photo finish.
second edit: I just want to reiterate that so far, the Escape scene is the only one where the Protean would need to use an Alter Shape / EX ability to make happen-- every other major scene the Protean fits through its base qualities or physical appearance.Last edited by Ruck; 2020-10-08 at 11:13 PM.
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2020-10-08, 11:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
I wonder, does a Protean have to "know" a creature type in order to change into it? Logically, you can't turn into something you have no idea exists. (I can disguise myself as Darth Vader for Halloween... provided I have had at least SOME exposure to Star Wars in my life.)
I suppose the Protean could have "innate knowledge of the details of all the other species that inhabit the world" or something along those lines (it's a fantasy world, after all) but I'm just curious to know if that's officially part of the description.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2020-10-08, 11:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-08, 11:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
It is not, as far as I can tell
I'd imagine so, but that's the kind of thing that is up to the DM. Proteans are not available to be PCs, so rule 0 (whatever makes for the best story) applies, both when used as an antagonist in an actual game, and in OotS. We could posit, for example, that given MitD's vague (repressed? Lost to time?) memories of the astral plane, he might have spent some time there, and met creatures that move through it on their way to other places. That'd give him a fairly solid set of creatures to borrow Ex powers from.
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2020-10-09, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
It's not easy to invent a situation that proves that someone has 40 Int. Huge strength is easy to show, by doing exaggerated Superman-like feats of strength even harder than the tower scene, like lifting an entire mountain (as Buttercup does in the Powerpuff Girls season 4 episode "Members only"). You can also show the need for 19 Int if someone casts level 9 spells as a wizard. But about the only possibility to show 40 Int is if they let a squid thingy feeds on their brain for an extended time without noticable effects, and I don't think squid thingies will appear again in the OotS.
That would be a clear sign that the MitD was a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon.
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2020-10-09, 04:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Sure you can. You could set up a joke in which the MitD solves thousands of math problems per second to pass the time, or reveal that he derived special relativity from a priori principles as a baby. That wouldn't mechanically prove anything, but it would demonstrate a level of intelligence that is so far beyond normal human horizons that it's clearly stratospheric.
A super-high Wisdom strikes me as the truly difficult thing to demonstrate, although I suppose a sufficiently difficult Will Save might help. (And yes, I know that's probably academic, since we know the MitD has a low-enough Wisdom to fall prey to Xykon's Amazing Mind Control Spell (unless he rolled a natural 1).)Last edited by Emanick; 2020-10-09 at 04:27 AM.
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2020-10-09, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Qwertystop is right though: Keltest's argument, while true when phrased in a slightly more specific form such as "there's nothing MitD can do that can't be explained by a Protean grabbing just the right Ex ability from the quasi-infinite search space of the sum of all creatures that potentially exist out there" does not extend to "there is nothing that can happen in the comic that can't disprove MitD being a Protean".
The passive vs active distinction is what makes the difference. Qwertystop had a perfect example: "MitD gets poisoned by a Dex-reducing poison and is paralyzed within a few rounds".
I do tend to agree with Keltest about anything active - if we see the MitD do X, that can almost certainly be explained by the borrowing of just the right Ex ability. (MitD reinvents General Relativity on panel? He used an ability that summons a homework-helping genie that has the power to solve any one math problem for you. Etc)
But again, that's a feature of the Protean's candidacy, not a bug. That flexibility is precisely why the Protean is a candidate that can explain most things much better than rival candidates.Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2020-10-09, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Oh, here's another one: he gets injured (but not incapacitated), and is still injured two minutes later. The Protean has regeneration 50, with nothing that negates it (unlike e.g. a troll), and that's enough to go from knocked-out-by-damage to full health (814 hp) in 17 rounds (1m 42s).
Honestly, for most things plausibly likely to show up, I'd expect him to be fine within a round or two – a couple of panels, a page at most even in combat time with several panels per round. But in the general case, where we can't assume that it isn't an absolutely massive hit except insofar as it's not enough to knock him out, two minutes is all we've got.
And that seems entirely likely to show up soon, given the many monsters in the vicinity and the generally high likelihood of fights coming up. For that matter, I expect confirmed or denied regeneration would filter out a few other monsters, as well.
The Protean specifically notes that if it grabs an ability that grants something it already has, it only keeps the better of the two. So it can't bring its own abilities down. MitD being unable to do something that a Protean could do without any particular parts shifted is thus a pretty solid hint against it.Last edited by Qwertystop; 2020-10-09 at 11:17 AM.
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2020-10-09, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
What I sometimes think about, what if MitD pretends in some cases and his weaknesses are faked?
Of course damage reduction or strength can't be faked, but child intellect obviously can. And he could even pretend to be mind controlled (or what it was).
Have you read Myth series by Asprin? There was a young dragon named Gleep. The team considered him to be completely dumb. But in one of books, the author writes from his perspective and we can understand that he is indeed a very smart creature, if not smarter, then at least at the same level with his master and friends. In this chapter, Gleep is supposed to guard a warehouse with unknown goods. One by one he stops all of bad guys and even manages to help team realize how important goods really are. And that the guy who hired them is actually a schemer. And even after that, protagonists continue to think Gleep is mindless.
Being a really smart creature MitD can easily pretend to be dumber then he really is. And if he is deity, even partial, he can just to pretend to be mind-controlled.
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2020-10-09, 05:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2020-10-09, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 05:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2020-10-09, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
That does not fit MitD's characterization at the time.
A protean cannot do that. In fact, you'd need to present an example of how "somehow" would work. And how MitD, unaware of his powers, would accomplish it, however it was done.
It is, in any case, implausible, especially given the lack of a doylist reason, and barely a watsonian one.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2020-10-09, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Dunno. I don't think it can be a magical illusion, because those don't work well against Xykon. But Haley managed to feign death with an eyeliner. Real world humans sometimes fake exaggerated large spiral eyes with prop glasses. On one hand, the MitD would have a harder time, because his eyes are apparently glowing in the dark, so he'd need glowing glasses too. On the other hand, you can't see anything but his eyes, so he needn't do anything special to hide the frame of the glasses. But with the MitD's childish nature and breaking all his toys, it's hard to see how he'd have spiral eye prop glasses with him. But the MitD might have motivation to fake spiral eyes. You mentioned that if the MitD is a Protean, your suspect that he is continuously spending a move action to hold his form stable enough to display two eyes. If he pays that much attention to making his eyes expressive, he might as well go the entire way and do spiral eyes too. But all in all, I still find it unlikely that the spiral eyes are fake.
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2020-10-09, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2020-10-09, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Of course! But even if he's not immune, he gets a saving throw that negates the mind control attempt entirely. You saw that the vampire mind control works that way in OotS. A protean has 23 wisdom and the Iron Will feat that gives it a +2 bonus on will saves. I don't know how difficult the save is, as we don't know the name of the spell, and that's the only time we saw Xykon use it, but it is at least possible that the MitD would make his will save.
Last edited by b_jonas; 2020-10-09 at 08:07 PM.
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2020-10-09, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
That said, this is something of a moot point, as we have no details about what spell was cast on MitD or if it was recast. All we know is that it is apparently a mind-altering effect, and so MitD cannot be immune to mind altering effects. (We also know that MitD failed his save, but because we don't know what it was this does not provide any better information).
We cannot safely establish a stat range based off of that since we have no way to know what he was rolling against.Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-10-09 at 08:41 PM.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
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2020-10-09, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Given that Rich has said it is possible to guess MITD's species, I am pretty solidly sticking to the idea that the scenes with the MITD are not trying to communicate the exact opposite of what they seem to be. (e.g. "MITD didn't fail his save against Xykon; he simply put on fake swirly eyes, in a way that has never been established as possible in the comic.")
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2020-10-09, 08:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Agreed, MitD definitely failed his save and there was no funny business. Nat 1 vs Nat 20, too high of a DC, it doesn't matter - he failed the save and got hit by the spell.
We don't know what exactly happened but it definitely wasn't a huge gotcha moment. No reason to believe it is doylistically or watsonically.An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
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I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
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2020-10-10, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
Okay, I withdraw I said.
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2020-10-11, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One
I read this and realized we already have an example of the MitD getting injured but not incapacitated: strip 901. He does not appear to regenerate any health over the course of the strip, at least if we assume that the comic's long-standing precedent in which magical healing fixes damaged clothing is in effect.
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