MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Lombard]

IÂ’ve seen suggestions about limiting our list based on being native to D&D, unfortunately IÂ’ve both seen people insist that it absolutely has to be a D&D creature because itÂ’s a D&D webcomic and also almost as many insist that if it was a D&D creature weÂ’d have found it by now (or other better logic I forgot) therefore it canÂ’t be a D&D creature.

Everyone keeps using the word creature for MitF. Meaning apparently that MitD can't have class levels. MitD is different in this respect than OoTS and Team Evil. In this respect MiTD is more like the familiars and animal companions. If it turns out this underlying assumption was wrong all along, it'd be very interesting in the context of the OoTS comic as a whole. For my own part I think of MitD as much more of a person than a creature at this point. Regardless of what's going on under that umbrella.

[Xhosant]

A person is who the MitD is. A creature is what the MitD is.

O'chul has answered the first, so we're working on the second.

[Ruck]

Youve got a pretty big double standard going here then. If you can reject out of hand the claim that the Protean can provide an explanation for most situations because we cant think of a scenario where it cant, we can reject out of hand your claim that the protean cant duplicate a given ability because you cant think of an ability that it can use.

It's not a double standard; it's that burden of proof is on you to prove it can do "anything it needs to to fit any scenes" when it's been demonstrated repeatedly that it cannot.

Maybe I'm missing something, but... if MitD is a protean, how many of the scenes we've seen so far *actually* require a lucky transformation for a specific monster ability? As far as I'm aware it's just the escape scene.

Sure, you can argue that the protean's shape-shifting could make it fit almost any potential scene, and if we had several scenes that can only be explained by certain specific shape-shifting I'd agree that it would weaken the case for the protean. But given what we have, that seems like a strawman. Most of the scenes fit with the protean because of protean-specific characteristics, not because of lucky transformations to acquire certain monster abilities

I believe this is correct, yes.

[Keltest]

It's not a double standard; it's that burden of proof is on you to prove it can do "anything it needs to to fit any scenes" when it's been demonstrated repeatedly that it cannot.

The double standard is that your "proof" that it cant is based on the same basic logic as my proof that it can, and yet mine gets dismissed out of hand while yours needs to be actively disproven.

[Ruck]

The double standard is that your "proof" that it cant is based on the same basic logic as my proof that it can, and yet mine gets dismissed out of hand while yours needs to be actively disproven.

Wrong. Our "proof" is based in the literal RAW description of the Protean.

Alter Shape (Ex)
A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action. In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes). Whatever its present form, the protean retains all its own special qualities. Plus, it gains the advantage of up to four extraordinary abilities from the forms it mimics (but not spell-like or supernatural powers). The assumed form can be no smaller than a flea and no larger than 200 feet in its largest dimension (make sure to take into account rules for reach and size modifiers to AC and melee attacks). Incorporeal traits can also be assumed, which counts as a single extraordinary ability. If a hagunemnon assumes a partial form that confers an extraordinary ability already possessed by the creature, only the better of the two abilities is retained. No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action. However, it may substitute a melee attack form for one of its slam attacks, using its own base attack bonus and Strength modifier to damage, but dealing base damage appropriate to the attack type.

At no point does that say "Can shapeshift into any creature it wants and do everything that creature can." It does say that it is limited to four EX abilities per creature it shifts into, which I have emphasized here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wrong. Our "proof" is based in the literal RAW description of the Protean.



At no point does that say "Can shapeshift into any creature it wants and do everything that creature can." It does say that it is limited to four EX abilities per creature it shifts into, which I have emphasized here.

And to be clear, this is what the actual shapechanging ability looks like:

Change Shape (Su)
A doppelganger can assume the shape of any Small or Medium humanoid. In humanoid form, the doppelganger loses its natural attacks. A doppelganger can remain in its humanoid form until it chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, but a doppelganger reverts to its natural form when killed. A true seeing spell or ability reveals its natural form.

Skills
A doppelganger has a +4 racial bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.

*When using its change shape ability, a doppelganger gets an additional +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. If it can read an opponent’s mind, it gets a further +4 circumstance bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks.

And

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:

• The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
• The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
• The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
• The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
• The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
• Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
• The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
• The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
• Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Neither of these are available to a protean.

Grey Wolf

[Qwertystop]

Another example: The Protean can't change its own stats, unless an Ex ability exists that does so (stats are not themselves an Ex ability), which seems if anything even more unlikely than arbitrary necessary magic-as-Ex (because why not just write the monster as having higher stats). Its stats are pretty high, sure, but if we work something out where MitD needs 40 Int? Nope. Turns out to be significantly weakened by an Antimagic Field (we haven't yet seen MitD in one, after all)? Sorry, Ex abilities aren't magic, and aren't affected by antimagic; a Protean would be almost entirely unaffected. Poisoned by a Dex-reducing poison and is paralyzed within a few rounds? Not happening to the Protean.

There's plenty of things – not just specific things, broad categories of things – that it can't do. It avoids the need for most of them by also having a pile of other specific-but-generally-useful things (lots of hit dice, high stats, darkvision, regeneration, DR, natural armor, and spell resistance), but if it needs more of any of those, or we specifically learn it doesn't have one of them, that's a mark against the Protean.

[Ruck]

And to be clear, this is what the actual shapechanging ability looks like:



And


Neither of these are available to a protean.

Grey Wolf

And unlike those forms of shapechanging, the Protean's Alter Shape specifically says it retains all its special qualities (merely gaining a handful of abilities), instead of entirely taking the form and traits of the new creature it has shifted into.

edit: and Qwertystop emerges from the pack to beat my pony in a photo finish.

second edit: I just want to reiterate that so far, the Escape scene is the only one where the Protean would need to use an Alter Shape / EX ability to make happen-- every other major scene the Protean fits through its base qualities or physical appearance.

[lio45]

I wonder, does a Protean have to "know" a creature type in order to change into it? Logically, you can't turn into something you have no idea exists. (I can disguise myself as Darth Vader for Halloween... provided I have had at least SOME exposure to Star Wars in my life.)

I suppose the Protean could have "innate knowledge of the details of all the other species that inhabit the world" or something along those lines (it's a fantasy world, after all) but I'm just curious to know if that's officially part of the description.

[Ruck]

I wonder, does a Protean have to "know" a creature type in order to change into it? Logically, you can't turn into something you have no idea exists.

I would think so, although with Detect Thoughts at will, it's certainly possible for a Protean to be knowledgeable about creatures it's never met... especially a Protean who hangs around such a well-researched nerd as Redcloak is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suppose the Protean could have "innate knowledge of the details of all the other species that inhabit the world" or something along those lines (it's a fantasy world, after all) but I'm just curious to know if that's officially part of the description.

It is not, as far as I can tell

I wonder, does a Protean have to "know" a creature type in order to change into it? Logically, you can't turn into something you have no idea exists.

I'd imagine so, but that's the kind of thing that is up to the DM. Proteans are not available to be PCs, so rule 0 (whatever makes for the best story) applies, both when used as an antagonist in an actual game, and in OotS. We could posit, for example, that given MitD's vague (repressed? Lost to time?) memories of the astral plane, he might have spent some time there, and met creatures that move through it on their way to other places. That'd give him a fairly solid set of creatures to borrow Ex powers from.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

if we work something out where MitD needs 40 Int? Nope.

It's not easy to invent a situation that proves that someone has 40 Int. Huge strength is easy to show, by doing exaggerated Superman-like feats of strength even harder than the tower scene, like lifting an entire mountain (as Buttercup does in the Powerpuff Girls season 4 episode "Members only"). You can also show the need for 19 Int if someone casts level 9 spells as a wizard. But about the only possibility to show 40 Int is if they let a squid thingy feeds on their brain for an extended time without noticable effects, and I don't think squid thingies will appear again in the OotS.

Poisoned by a Dex-reducing poison and is paralyzed within a few rounds?

That would be a clear sign that the MitD was a Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon.

[Emanick]

It's not easy to invent a situation that proves that someone has 40 Int. Huge strength is easy to show, by doing exaggerated Superman-like feats of strength even harder than the tower scene, like lifting an entire mountain (as Buttercup does in the Powerpuff Girls season 4 episode "Members only"). You can also show the need for 19 Int if someone casts level 9 spells as a wizard. But about the only possibility to show 40 Int is if they let a squid thingy feeds on their brain for an extended time without noticable effects, and I don't think squid thingies will appear again in the OotS.

Sure you can. You could set up a joke in which the MitD solves thousands of math problems per second to pass the time, or reveal that he derived special relativity from a priori principles as a baby. That wouldn't mechanically prove anything, but it would demonstrate a level of intelligence that is so far beyond normal human horizons that it's clearly stratospheric.

A super-high Wisdom strikes me as the truly difficult thing to demonstrate, although I suppose a sufficiently difficult Will Save might help. (And yes, I know that's probably academic, since we know the MitD has a low-enough Wisdom to fall prey to Xykon's Amazing Mind Control Spell (unless he rolled a natural 1).)

[lio45]

Qwertystop is right though: Keltest's argument, while true when phrased in a slightly more specific form such as "there's nothing MitD can do that can't be explained by a Protean grabbing just the right Ex ability from the quasi-infinite search space of the sum of all creatures that potentially exist out there" does not extend to "there is nothing that can happen in the comic that can't disprove MitD being a Protean".

The passive vs active distinction is what makes the difference. Qwertystop had a perfect example: "MitD gets poisoned by a Dex-reducing poison and is paralyzed within a few rounds".

I do tend to agree with Keltest about anything active - if we see the MitD do X, that can almost certainly be explained by the borrowing of just the right Ex ability. (MitD reinvents General Relativity on panel? He used an ability that summons a homework-helping genie that has the power to solve any one math problem for you. Etc)

But again, that's a feature of the Protean's candidacy, not a bug. That flexibility is precisely why the Protean is a candidate that can explain most things much better than rival candidates.

[Qwertystop]

Oh, here's another one: he gets injured (but not incapacitated), and is still injured two minutes later. The Protean has regeneration 50, with nothing that negates it (unlike e.g. a troll), and that's enough to go from knocked-out-by-damage to full health (814 hp) in 17 rounds (1m 42s).

Honestly, for most things plausibly likely to show up, I'd expect him to be fine within a round or two – a couple of panels, a page at most even in combat time with several panels per round. But in the general case, where we can't assume that it isn't an absolutely massive hit except insofar as it's not enough to knock him out, two minutes is all we've got.

And that seems entirely likely to show up soon, given the many monsters in the vicinity and the generally high likelihood of fights coming up. For that matter, I expect confirmed or denied regeneration would filter out a few other monsters, as well.

The Protean specifically notes that if it grabs an ability that grants something it already has, it only keeps the better of the two. So it can't bring its own abilities down. MitD being unable to do something that a Protean could do without any particular parts shifted is thus a pretty solid hint against it.

[Edreyn]

What I sometimes think about, what if MitD pretends in some cases and his weaknesses are faked?
Of course damage reduction or strength can't be faked, but child intellect obviously can. And he could even pretend to be mind controlled (or what it was).

Have you read Myth series by Asprin? There was a young dragon named Gleep. The team considered him to be completely dumb. But in one of books, the author writes from his perspective and we can understand that he is indeed a very smart creature, if not smarter, then at least at the same level with his master and friends. In this chapter, Gleep is supposed to guard a warehouse with unknown goods. One by one he stops all of bad guys and even manages to help team realize how important goods really are. And that the guy who hired them is actually a schemer. And even after that, protagonists continue to think Gleep is mindless.

Being a really smart creature MitD can easily pretend to be dumber then he really is. And if he is deity, even partial, he can just to pretend to be mind-controlled.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And he could even pretend to be mind controlled (or what it was).

You can't fake spiral eyes.

GW

[Edreyn]

You can't fake spiral eyes.
GW

Can't it be some kind of illusion?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can't it be some kind of illusion?

Cast by whom? With what purpose?

GW

[Edreyn]

Cast by whom? With what purpose?

GW

I mean MitD himself somehow made his eyes appear that way, for purpose to cheat Xykon. An illusion can be not only spell. It even fits the running Protean idea.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean MitD himself somehow made his eyes appear that way, for purpose to cheat Xykon.

That does not fit MitD's characterization at the time.

An illusion can be not only spell. It even fits the running Protean idea.

A protean cannot do that. In fact, you'd need to present an example of how "somehow" would work. And how MitD, unaware of his powers, would accomplish it, however it was done.

It is, in any case, implausible, especially given the lack of a doylist reason, and barely a watsonian one.

GW

[WanderingMist]

What I sometimes think about, what if MitD pretends in some cases and his weaknesses are faked?
Of course damage reduction or strength can't be faked, but child intellect obviously can. And he could even pretend to be mind controlled (or what it was).

Have you read Myth series by Asprin? There was a young dragon named Gleep. The team considered him to be completely dumb. But in one of books, the author writes from his perspective and we can understand that he is indeed a very smart creature, if not smarter, then at least at the same level with his master and friends. In this chapter, Gleep is supposed to guard a warehouse with unknown goods. One by one he stops all of bad guys and even manages to help team realize how important goods really are. And that the guy who hired them is actually a schemer. And even after that, protagonists continue to think Gleep is mindless.

Being a really smart creature MitD can easily pretend to be dumber then he really is. And if he is deity, even partial, he can just to pretend to be mind-controlled.

But why would MitD pretend to be dumb with O-Chul then?

[b_jonas]

You can't fake spiral eyes.

Dunno. I don't think it can be a magical illusion, because those don't work well against Xykon. But Haley managed to feign death with an eyeliner. Real world humans sometimes fake exaggerated large spiral eyes with prop glasses. On one hand, the MitD would have a harder time, because his eyes are apparently glowing in the dark, so he'd need glowing glasses too. On the other hand, you can't see anything but his eyes, so he needn't do anything special to hide the frame of the glasses. But with the MitD's childish nature and breaking all his toys, it's hard to see how he'd have spiral eye prop glasses with him. But the MitD might have motivation to fake spiral eyes. You mentioned that if the MitD is a Protean, your suspect that he is continuously spending a move action to hold his form stable enough to display two eyes. If he pays that much attention to making his eyes expressive, he might as well go the entire way and do spiral eyes too. But all in all, I still find it unlikely that the spiral eyes are fake.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dunno. I don't think it can be a magical illusion, because those don't work well against Xykon. But Haley managed to feign death with an eyeliner. Real world humans sometimes fake exaggerated large spiral eyes with prop glasses. On one hand, the MitD would have a harder time, because his eyes are apparently glowing in the dark, so he'd need glowing glasses too. On the other hand, you can't see anything but his eyes, so he needn't do anything special to hide the frame of the glasses. But with the MitD's childish nature and breaking all his toys, it's hard to see how he'd have spiral eye prop glasses with him. But the MitD might have motivation to fake spiral eyes. You mentioned that if the MitD is a Protean, your suspect that he is continuously spending a move action to hold his form stable enough to display two eyes. If he pays that much attention to making his eyes expressive, he might as well go the entire way and do spiral eyes too. But all in all, I still find it unlikely that the spiral eyes are fake.

A protean is not immune to mind control. The moment they are under mind control, they can't do any of those things.

GW

[b_jonas]

A protean is not immune to mind control. The moment they are under mind control, they can't do any of those things.

Of course! But even if he's not immune, he gets a saving throw that negates the mind control attempt entirely. You saw that the vampire mind control works that way in OotS. A protean has 23 wisdom and the Iron Will feat that gives it a +2 bonus on will saves. I don't know how difficult the save is, as we don't know the name of the spell, and that's the only time we saw Xykon use it, but it is at least possible that the MitD would make his will save.

[Squire Doodad]

Of course! But even if he's not immune, he gets a saving throw that negates the mind control attempt entirely. You saw that the vampire mind control works that way in OotS. A protean has 23 wisdom and the Iron Will feat that gives it a +2 bonus on will saves. I don't know how difficult the save is, as we don't know the name of the spell, and that's the only time we saw Xykon use it, but it is at least possible that the MitD would make his will save.

That said, this is something of a moot point, as we have no details about what spell was cast on MitD or if it was recast. All we know is that it is apparently a mind-altering effect, and so MitD cannot be immune to mind altering effects. (We also know that MitD failed his save, but because we don't know what it was this does not provide any better information).
We cannot safely establish a stat range based off of that since we have no way to know what he was rolling against.

[Ruck]

Given that Rich has said it is possible to guess MITD's species, I am pretty solidly sticking to the idea that the scenes with the MITD are not trying to communicate the exact opposite of what they seem to be. (e.g. "MITD didn't fail his save against Xykon; he simply put on fake swirly eyes, in a way that has never been established as possible in the comic.")

[Squire Doodad]

Given that Rich has said it is possible to guess MITD's species, I am pretty solidly sticking to the idea that the scenes with the MITD are not trying to communicate the exact opposite of what they seem to be. (e.g. "MITD didn't fail his save against Xykon; he simply put on fake swirly eyes, in a way that has never been established as possible in the comic.")

Agreed, MitD definitely failed his save and there was no funny business. Nat 1 vs Nat 20, too high of a DC, it doesn't matter - he failed the save and got hit by the spell.
We don't know what exactly happened but it definitely wasn't a huge gotcha moment. No reason to believe it is doylistically or watsonically.

[Edreyn]

Okay, I withdraw I said.

[Emanick]

Oh, here's another one: he gets injured (but not incapacitated), and is still injured two minutes later. The Protean has regeneration 50, with nothing that negates it (unlike e.g. a troll), and that's enough to go from knocked-out-by-damage to full health (814 hp) in 17 rounds (1m 42s).

Honestly, for most things plausibly likely to show up, I'd expect him to be fine within a round or two – a couple of panels, a page at most even in combat time with several panels per round. But in the general case, where we can't assume that it isn't an absolutely massive hit except insofar as it's not enough to knock him out, two minutes is all we've got.

And that seems entirely likely to show up soon, given the many monsters in the vicinity and the generally high likelihood of fights coming up. For that matter, I expect confirmed or denied regeneration would filter out a few other monsters, as well.

I read this and realized we already have an example of the MitD getting injured but not incapacitated: strip 901. He does not appear to regenerate any health over the course of the strip, at least if we assume that the comic's long-standing precedent in which magical healing fixes damaged clothing is in effect.