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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Ah right. I vaguely remember that now from when I first looked at the theories a few months ago, but wasn't thinking about it when I saw that post. Sorry.

  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by HeroErix View Post
    Ah right. I vaguely remember that now from when I first looked at the theories a few months ago, but wasn't thinking about it when I saw that post. Sorry.
    Nah, no problem. So much prefer to be given new pictures of Cat in the Darkness than another round of, say, "it's a Tarrasque". CitD will never make it to section 3b, because they can never be frequent enough. Even if this thread evolved into nothing but pictures of CitD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    I have wondered about this thread name "Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?" for some time. I think I kind of get it but am not sure.
    Last edited by Hardcore; 2020-10-29 at 02:45 AM.

  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardcore View Post
    I have wondered about this thread name "Things You Never Noticed VII: Wait, This Isnt the MitD Thread?" for some time. I think I kind of get it but am not sure.
    That you wrote this in the thread titled MitD XV: The Other Dark One mightsuggest a reason for that thread's name.
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  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    So one of the frequently proposed unlikely ideas is "Snarl Jr", that the MITD is a splinter of or otherwise related to the Snarl. Now, considered on its own this probably violates the "possible to figure it out" clause, but is it possible that whatever species or creature the MITD is originates from the Snarl? The Protean in particular, as an ever-shifting creature of chaos, would make a great deal of sense as some kind of spawn or mortal avatar of the Snarl.

    This might explain the "fine line" comment: Rich didn't create the Protean, or the Xenoscryth, or whatever, but he did decide that *whatever creature* would, in OOTS continuity, be the spawn of the Snarl. And if the MITD originates from the Snarl, it would contain the tetrachromatic energies necessary to seal the Snarl, allowing for the rifts to be sealed without Redcloak's aid.

    So what do you think of this idea, and which creatures might this explanation fit?
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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    So one of the frequently proposed unlikely ideas is "Snarl Jr", that the MITD is a splinter of or otherwise related to the Snarl. Now, considered on its own this probably violates the "possible to figure it out" clause, but is it possible that whatever species or creature the MITD is originates from the Snarl? The Protean in particular, as an ever-shifting creature of chaos, would make a great deal of sense as some kind of spawn or mortal avatar of the Snarl.

    This might explain the "fine line" comment: Rich didn't create the Protean, or the Xenoscryth, or whatever, but he did decide that *whatever creature* would, in OOTS continuity, be the spawn of the Snarl. And if the MITD originates from the Snarl, it would contain the tetrachromatic energies necessary to seal the Snarl, allowing for the rifts to be sealed without Redcloak's aid.

    So what do you think of this idea, and which creatures might this explanation fit?
    If you mean "Rich will tie the species to the snarl in lore only", I suppose he might, although if that is the case, it is of no particular impact to this thread, since "future OotS lore tie ins" isn't something we can use.

    But more crucially, the snarl doesn't fit. As far as we know, it can't teleport, it doesn't eat (other than, possibly, souls), it doesn't speak, it doesn't reproduce, there aren't so many of him running around that the SBGH would comment on it or think he'd sell for a good price, etc.

    And I've said my piece on the fine line comment: as far as I can tell, there is no hidden meanings, clues or anything else. Rich simply acknowledged that made up monsters are made up monsters regardless of who created them, and so excluding himself as author is a fine line.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-11-03 at 04:23 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    In the first post, the "Categories" characteristic in the FBS requirements (3a) should point to section 2c instead of section 3c.

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Non serious suggestion:

    Mediator

    It is in Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix
    No page number because it is one of those that was binder pages, so you could make your own super book.

    It casts Wish at will, and can do so reflexively without actually stating anything.
    Sure, it is only in service to maintaining the balance of Nirvana, but that can be hand waved with infinite wishes - maybe the Snarl was attacking it, and he got away through the Astral via a wish?
    It also has no XP value listed, as it cannot be defeated.
    All scenes can be explained with wish.
    Mediators can't normally talk, but then wishes.
    The Ecology section not making sense? Hand wave with wish.
    You can do a lot with enough wishes.

    Yeah, it is silly and bad. But if you can get rid of the nonsense reasoning of it even being here, the power set technically matches.



    Although I still really think it is the Grue from Wishbringer (or at least a version of it - maybe it became an Eurg which could explain the tower and earthquake scene) - I just can't find a stat block for that version yet, and I have been looking for a while now.

  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default MITD: a new(?) suggestion

    Hi friends.
    Great post and kudos to Grey Wolf for the great job maintaining it. I throughly enjoyed it throughout the years.

    To the point: I believe I have a very strong candidate of what the MITD is.
    This creature:
    - Has a pretty good explanation for the circus scene with its aura
    - Has great strength and natural armor
    - Explains the escape scene
    - Is medium sized
    - Has a great spellcraft score and very high charisma
    - Has a CR of 20
    - I couldn't find it anywhere (edit: anywhere in this thread)

    I suspect the MITD is:
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    A Protean, Izfiitar
    www_d20pfsrd_com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/protean/protean-izfiitar
    (I tried to add links but the forum won't let me since I have less than 10 posts. Replacing the dots with underscores is the best I could do).

    Pros:
    - Medium size fits the MITD
    - Cloak of Chaos aura explains the circus scene quite well.
    www_d20pfsrd_com/magic/all-spells/c/cloak-of-chaos
    It affects lawful characters differently, which is aligned with the variety of responses in the circus scene.
    It has an exotic shape "crowned by a halo of ever-changing symbols". The charisma of 28 also fits nicely.
    -Escape it explained by its 1/year miracle spell-like ability. It's also later surprised it can't use it again when it talks to the cockroaches. This could be because the MITD is still young and never tried using it twice in one year before.
    - Has a physical body and not immune to mind affecting spells.
    - Has a natural armor of +12, which explains why it's hard to hit, but could still suffer from a paper cut (no armor in the mouth).
    DR 15/lawful explains why Miko tickled it but it didn't even notice Belkar attacking it.
    Though to be fair, Miko was also higher level than Belakr at the time.
    - 35 spellcraft explains why is knows so much about spells.
    - It's quite likely for a Protean to think of the storm as its father, which explains why it said its father way way bigger.
    - It isn't in any of the forbidden categories. In fact, the standard 3rd edition protean is among the FBS, and this version fits the MITD better.

    Cons:
    - I have no idea if it existed before strip 100 and couldn't find a way to check. The copyright notice is "Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 6 © 2017, Paizo Inc", which should be way after strip 100, but no idea if it existed beforehand in other rule books.
    - It has DR 15/lawful which means Miko should've been able to hurt it. Its resistance is only explained by its +12 natural armor. Though havng 362 HP on average means it could treat Miko's attacks as tickles.
    - A strength of 29 is one point below what we would expect (see Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes).
    However, it being an estimate by the community, as well as having only 1 str point below the threshold still keeps this plausible IMHO.
    - Speaks abyssal and protean, so the SBGH shouldn't have been surprised that is speaks. Maybe they were surprised an Izfiitar would speak *to them*, but this isn't a great explanation. It speaking common is still surprising.
    - It has 6 arms. Couldn't find a reason it'll have a hard time holding something and pulling it too.
    - It's a creature of chaos that keeps obeying Xykon's rules. This can probably be explained by the rule of funny.
    - I have no idea how Protean ecology works in Pathfinder. It could be that Proteans never start as Izfiitar, in which case it wouldn't make sense to think of it as a youngster of the species. Note that "izfiitars are and yet are not distinct from the keketars" is quite vague. Nothing contradicts Izfiitars being born as such.
    Last edited by Optimal Bison; 2020-12-25 at 10:01 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Default Re: MITD: a new(?) suggestion

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimal Bison View Post
    Hi friends.
    Great post and kudos to Grey Wolf for the great job maintaining it. I throughly enjoyed it throughout the years.

    To the point: I believe I have a very strong candidate of what the MITD is.
    This creature:
    - Has a pretty good explanation for the circus scene with its aura
    - Has great strength and natural armor
    - Explains the escape scene
    - Is medium sized
    - Has a great spellcraft score and very high charisma
    - Has a CR of 20
    - I couldn't find it anywhere

    I suspect the MITD is:
    Spoiler
    Show
    A Protean, Izfiitar
    www_d20pfsrd_com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/protean/protean-izfiitar
    (I tried to add links but the forum won't let me since I have less than 10 posts. Replacing the dots with underscores is the best I could do).

    Pros:
    - Medium size fits the MITD
    - Cloak of Chaos aura explains the circus scene quite well.
    www_d20pfsrd_com/magic/all-spells/c/cloak-of-chaos
    IT affects lawful characters differently, which is aligned with the variety of responses in the circus scene.
    It has an exotic shape "crowned by a halo of ever-changing symbols". The charisma of 28 also fits nicely.
    -Escape it explained by its 1/year miracle spell-like ability. It's also later surprised it can't use it again when it talks to the cockroaches. This could be because the MITD is still young and never tried using it twice in one year before.
    - Has a physical body and not immune to mind affecting spells.
    - Has a natural armor of +12, which explains why it's hard to hit, but could still suffer from a paper cut (no armor in the mouth).
    DR 15/lawful explains why Miko tickled it but it didn't even notice Belkar attacking it.
    Though to be fair, Miko was also higher level than Belakr at the time.
    - 35 spellcraft explains why is knows so much about spells.
    - It's quite likely for a Protean to think of the storms as its father, which explains why it said its father way way bigger.
    - It isn't in any of the forbidden categories. In fact, the standard 3rd edition protean is among the FBS, and this version fits the MITD better.

    Cons:
    - I have no idea if it existed before strip 100 and couldn't find a way to check. The copyright notice is "Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 6 © 2017, Paizo Inc", which should be way after strip 100, but no idea if it existed beforehand in other rule books.
    - It has DR 15/lawful which means Miko should've been able to hurt it. Its resistance is only explained by its +12 natural armor. Though havng 362 HP on average means it could treat Miko's attacks as tickles.
    - A strength of 29 is one point below what we would expect (see Section 3a: Suggestions that Fit the Big Scenes).
    However, it being an estimate by the community, as well as having only 1 str point below the threshod still keeps this plausible IMHO.
    - Speaks abyssal and protean, so the SBGH shouldn't have been surprised that is speaks. Maybe they were surprised an Izfiitar would speak *to them*, but this isn't a great explanation. It speaking common is still surprising.
    - It has 6 arms. Couldn't find a reason it'll have a hard time holding something and pulling it too.
    - It's a creature of chaos that keeps obeying Xykon's rules. This can probably be explained by the rule of funny.
    - I have no idea how Protean ecology works in Pathfinder. It could be that Proteans never start as Izfiitar, in which case it wouldn't make sense to think of it as a youngster of the species. Note that "izfiitars are and yet are not distinct from the keketars" is quite vague. Nothing contradict
    Izfiitars being born as such.
    I really, really like this idea, but unfortunately it seems impossible. The book came out in March 2017, as you mentioned, and the Izfiitar seems to have been created specially for that book. I can't find any reference to it existing in any previous form.

    It's a bummer, because, again, I would like to believe that this is the MitD.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2020-12-25 at 06:55 AM.
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    Ah yes, the Dungeon-Kruger effect.

  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomToon View Post
    Although I still really think it is the Grue from Wishbringer (or at least a version of it - maybe it became an Eurg which could explain the tower and earthquake scene) - I just can't find a stat block for that version yet, and I have been looking for a while now.
    Are the grues in Wishbringer any different than the ones in Zork? The original grues are either killed/banished or at least repelled by light, whereas the Monster has been seen illuminated (just not by us). If they are different, and Wishbringer grues qualify as a candidate, even so it's hard to believe the reveal being something like "He's a grue! But not the famous ones, a lesser-known alternate version!".
    Last edited by Lemarc; 2020-12-26 at 07:32 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #912
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemarc View Post
    Are the grues in Wishbringer any different than the ones in Zork? The original grues are either killed/banished or at least repelled by light, whereas the Monster has been seen illuminated (just not by us). If they are different, and Wishbringer grues qualify as a candidate, even so it's hard to believe the reveal being something like "He's a grue! But not the famous ones, a lesser-known alternate version!".
    To be fair, in this comic, some careful lampshade hanging could swing that...

  13. - Top - End - #913
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemarc View Post
    Are the grues in Wishbringer any different than the ones in Zork? The original grues are either killed/banished or at least repelled by light, whereas the Monster has been seen illuminated (just not by us). If they are different, and Wishbringer grues qualify as a candidate, even so it's hard to believe the reveal being something like "He's a grue! But not the famous ones, a lesser-known alternate version!".
    No, he is the same. The one that appears in Wishbringer is a baby. It also is asleep at the time, so you can shine your light on it and there it is.
    One of the outcomes is that you wake it up, and it eats you. Wishbringer is an item. It would then have the item. The wishes that it grants are as follows (and how I think it relates to the story).

    RAIN - in Azure city, explaining the rain scene.
    ADVICE - in the game, it is 4th wall breaking advice. Like, the demon cockroaches.
    FLIGHT - not used yet? It is supposed to take you home.
    DARKNESS - the creature is in darkness, after all.
    FORESIGHT - "lifts the veil of time, and shows the future". In the game, it lets you know where people are.
    LUCK - You get lucky. In the game I don't remember what it does.
    FREEDOM - you just teleport to safety. It is was used again in Azure city.

    So, I have not played the game in FOREVER (it came out in 1985) and finding a working copy can be a challenge. There was also a related book, but that is similarly hard to find.

    Grue's in Zork are more or less plot monsters. They eat you. No challenges. They are also immune to all weapons but one, explaining his toughness against Miko.
    Erug's would be a Grue with Nilbogism. Which would explain things like the "hit the lightest". He really meant to, and it would have knocked them as hard as possible. Similar thing with the earthquake - it was a light tap, that became a hard tap, and Grue's can stomp to make caverns (it is why they were underground in the first place).

    It doesn't matter though, since I can't find stats anywhere. I suggested it once before, but chose to withdraw the suggestion since I can't support it at all outside of it becoming borderline original fiction.

  14. - Top - End - #914
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    My 10-yr-old son has been reading the comics carefully, and thinking hard about what the MitD might be.

    He would like to share his thoughts with you:

    ----


    I'm fairly sure that the monster in the darkness either has a very long tongue or a very small head because it is able to lick the bottom of the stewpot to lick it clean in 477, panel 10.
    The problem with this is it also has to be able to swallow Redcloak.
    My proposal is that this creature is some sort of snake so it has a small head but still has the ability to swallow Redcloak whole like the big snakes like pythons can.

    ----

    I thought this was an interesting idea I haven't seen before? Please be nice.

  15. - Top - End - #915
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Coat View Post
    My 10-yr-old son has been reading the comics carefully, and thinking hard about what the MitD might be.

    He would like to share his thoughts with you:

    ----


    I'm fairly sure that the monster in the darkness either has a very long tongue or a very small head because it is able to lick the bottom of the stewpot to lick it clean in 477, panel 10.
    The problem with this is it also has to be able to swallow Redcloak.
    My proposal is that this creature is some sort of snake so it has a small head but still has the ability to swallow Redcloak whole like the big snakes like pythons can.

    ----

    I thought this was an interesting idea I haven't seen before? Please be nice.
    Are you sure you referenced the right comic? I don't see a stewpot anywhere in 477.
    I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.

  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Are you sure you referenced the right comic? I don't see a stewpot anywhere in 477.
    Third panel from last has MitD declaring his intention to lick the pot clean.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2021-01-06 at 04:19 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Yeah, sorry - he was referring to the book and I saw the page was 477, but I didn't spot that there were 3 pages of 477.
    He means panel 10 of the third page of 477. See 476 for the actual stew pot involved.

  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Coat View Post
    My 10-yr-old son has been reading the comics carefully, and thinking hard about what the MitD might be.

    He would like to share his thoughts with you:

    ----


    I'm fairly sure that the monster in the darkness either has a very long tongue or a very small head because it is able to lick the bottom of the stewpot to lick it clean in 477, panel 10.
    The problem with this is it also has to be able to swallow Redcloak.
    My proposal is that this creature is some sort of snake so it has a small head but still has the ability to swallow Redcloak whole like the big snakes like pythons can.

    ----

    I thought this was an interesting idea I haven't seen before? Please be nice.
    That's some creative thinking that I hadn't heard before! Your 10-year-old son should be proud for noticing that. If you think a snake-like creature, some form of Ha-Naga, IIRC, has been suggested with a very lengthy list of pros and cons.
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  19. - Top - End - #919
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    The pot is seen in #476. It is slightly larger than Haley's head. A human children could put their head in that pot and lick most of it clean. Someone with a slightly larger head might need to use their hands or other appendages, or a utensil.

    Let's look at which of the more popular suggestions could work you do insist on a small head like an anteater. I believe a Protean could grow a head of a suitable shape. And Uvuudaum is large sized and has a Sliver-like head which might fit, but we're not sure if it even has a mouth, let alone tongue. A Carbosilicate Amorph is only medium sized, so it's possible that his head would fit. A half-green-dragon half-green-dragon half-green-dragon half-green-dragon half-green-dragon young adult green dragon is only large size and has elognated elognated elognated elognated elognated features, so he might actually end up with an anteater-like head with a long tongue. It's just as well, since his overly long claws wouldn't let him get the sauce with fingers. Glabrezu are huge size with a dog snout so I'm quite sure it wouldn't be able to lick the pot clean with that; his hands might perhaps fit though.

  20. - Top - End - #920
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    A Carbosilicate Amorph is only medium sized, so it's possible that his head would fit.
    It would undoubtedly fit, sine they have no bones, and can reshape any part of their body to fit any container (Schlock once ate someone by sneaking on them through their shower head, and escaped through the drain).

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2021-01-07 at 08:28 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  21. - Top - End - #921
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    That's some creative thinking that I hadn't heard before! Your 10-year-old son should be proud for noticing that.
    Thank you! He will appreciate that!


    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    If you think a snake-like creature, some form of Ha-Naga, IIRC, has been suggested with a very lengthy list of pros and cons.
    Yeah, so I like a psionic or otherwise magical creature with a snake-like body for lots of reasons? It means you could fit a much larger body into a smaller space, for example. It explains how something about the volume of a person could also swallow something about the size of a person - which a large snake could plausibly do. It's really consistent with the way that MitD is never shown having hands and having trouble manipulating physical objects.

    It even helps a bit with strength: I vividly recall a scene in The Jungle Book where Kaa knocks down a wall. Things like pythons are just one big muscle, and I readily believe that they could put huge amounts of force into a strike - though I don't exactly see how Kaa could knock down a wall without also crushing his own skull to pulp. But for a mystical snake-thing of some sort, less of an issue.

    But that doesn't mean I think it's some kind of Naga.
    I just think it will be a magical/mythical creature with a snake-like body. For example, a bit of googling of Snake Monsters brought me to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakunawa

    That's a surprisingly good fit!
    PRO:
    • Definitely hungry. It eats moons!
    • Causes Earthquakes
    • Probably has good damage resistance: eats moons!
    • Probably quite strong: eats moons!
    • Definitely powerful enough: eats moons!
    • If it can eat a moon, it could swallow Redcloak. Unless Moons are much smaller than you think?
    • Maybe not as big as you think - fell in love with a human girl?
    • Has a sister who is a sea turtle, so maybe is part of a family?
    • Predates Strip 100 by at least a couple hundred years


    CON:
    • No explanation of the escape scene
    • Is more of a singular being than one of a kind
    • The 'sister who is a sea turtle' thing is really weak
    • No obvious connection to the astral plane
    • I mean, it's just obviously not, isn't it.


    So I don't remotely think that the MitD is some kind of relative of the Bakunawa.
    I was just surprised that a little bit of searching - literally about 10 minutes - in the snake-monster space turned up something new that's not really that much worse a candidate than many other of the proposed ideas. I suggests to me that it's maybe worth a bit more exploring.

    For a mythical being like the Bakunawa, I don't even reckon the escape scene is that big an issue: it's a mythical thing that eats moons. It's not a huge leap to imagine that it has other amazing powers. Or maybe there's a story about it where it does this that I don't know!

    The bigger thing, for me, is that Rich is just a better story-teller than that. Like... at the point when the umbrella comes off, how many people are going to go 'oh, a Bakunawa, of course!'. How many people will even have heard of what a Bakunawa is?! I'd never heard of it before. I can't believe that Rich will be happy with himself unless at least 80% of his audience are kicking themselves for not seeing it before - and in my opinion, even a Tarrasque barely clears that mark.

    So I think that the MitD will be a really well-known and recognisable snake-like being, and the moment the umbrella comes off we will all just have no idea how we didn't spot it before.
    But I have absolutely no idea what really well-known snake-like being it's going to be. So it's going to be a damn good trick.


    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas
    The pot is seen in #476. It is slightly larger than Haley's head. A human children could put their head in that pot and lick most of it clean.
    Sure, although a human couldn't also swallow another human-sized being whole. At least I can't!

    I agree with the rest of your points.

  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Coat View Post
    The bigger thing, for me, is that Rich is just a better story-teller than that. Like... at the point when the umbrella comes off, how many people are going to go 'oh, a Bakunawa, of course!'. How many people will even have heard of what a Bakunawa is?! I'd never heard of it before. I can't believe that Rich will be happy with himself unless at least 80% of his audience are kicking themselves for not seeing it before - and in my opinion, even a Tarrasque barely clears that mark.
    I don't think this can possibly be the case. If Rich, at ~#100, decided he wanted this out of the reveal ("at least 80% of his audience are kicking themselves for not seeing it before"), he'd have to pick a creature that was extremely well known, and yet carefully dole out clues in such a way that no-one would figure it out before the end. That's not a realistic objective, not when 99% of your readership are seriously into D&D (percentage has been diluted by non-players since then). I have long been in the camp of "Rich does not expect everyone to recognize it", mostly on the back of his assessment that he'd expect someone to figure out, rather than "everyone". We know he's been picturing the reveal for years now, so I expect he already has a plan on how to tell everyone that does NOT recognize it what he is, possibly more subtle than our usual go-to of "Elan is confused, and V explains in thorough detail".

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  23. - Top - End - #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I don't think this can possibly be the case. If Rich, at ~#100, decided he wanted this out of the reveal ("at least 80% of his audience are kicking themselves for not seeing it before"), he'd have to pick a creature that was extremely well known, and yet carefully dole out clues in such a way that no-one would figure it out before the end. That's not a realistic objective, not when 99% of your readership are seriously into D&D (number has gone down since then). I have long been in the camp of "Rich does not expect everyone to recognize it", mostly on the back of his assessment that he'd expect someone to figure out, rather than "everyone". We know he's been picturing the reveal for years now, so I expect he already has a plan on how to tell everyone that does NOT recognize it what he is, possibly more subtle than our usual go-to of "Elan is confused, and V explains in thorough detail".

    Grey Wolf
    I mean... yes, I completely understand where you are coming from. I don't see how it can be possible either.

    But how many decades have we been following this comic now? I can't think of a single occasion when Rich has failed to land a story beat. And this is something he's been planning for a long time.
    And the thing is, this isn't just a shout-out for the fans. The reveal of the MitD is a narrative pivot - every single reader has been led to wonder what is under that umbrella: I just don't think Rich would have built that suspense unless he was confident that he was going to deliver on it for the majority of readers.

    Maybe you're right, and the way he delivers on it will be some subtle build-up and explanation. As you say, it seems inconceivable that the MitD could be that well known and we could still be so stuck on what it is. What can I say? I gotta lotta faith in The Giant!

    This is just my opinion: I completely understand why you have yours, and I think if I was running this thread I would also consider your assumptions the only sensible and reasonable ones to make.
    So I am just expressing my own opinion, rather than trying to persuade anyone else to change theirs.

    On that note, can I just take a moment to raise my hat at the rather excellent work you do on this thread? People probably don't comment on it enough. Your courtesy and clarity are much appreciated, and when one wants to discuss thoughts and observations on the MitD with an invested and excited 10-year-old it is a marvellous resource to have to hand. Thank you!

  24. - Top - End - #924
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Coat View Post
    I mean... yes, I completely understand where you are coming from. I don't see how it can be possible either.

    But how many decades have we been following this comic now? I can't think of a single occasion when Rich has failed to land a story beat. And this is something he's been planning for a long time.
    And the thing is, this isn't just a shout-out for the fans. The reveal of the MitD is a narrative pivot - every single reader has been led to wonder what is under that umbrella: I just don't think Rich would have built that suspense unless he was confident that he was going to deliver on it for the majority of readers.

    Maybe you're right, and the way he delivers on it will be some subtle build-up and explanation. As you say, it seems inconceivable that the MitD could be that well known and we could still be so stuck on what it is. What can I say? I gotta lotta faith in The Giant!
    So do I, which is why I am of the opinion that the Reveal's narrative punch won't be based on the species (which, when you think about it, is the least important part of what makes MitD himself), but because of the personal growth that, I'm guessing, will come to fruition in that moment. Narratively speaking, MitD completing his development from Stooge of Evil to Friend of Ochul is far more likely to deliver the kind of emotional gutpunch one has come to expect from the Giant.

    But yes, of course I might be wrong, and it will turn out to be something well known (you'd be surprised about Tarrasque, btw - being a French monster, a lot of non-D&D people seem to be aware of it. My dad, for example, who has never in his life held a dice with more or fewer than 6 sides, was perfectly aware of what a Tarrasque looks like... although of course he did not know about, say, the anti-magic properties of its shell, or the need to Wish it dead), but if that is the case, I'd expect it's in the first page.

    And that's the thing. For something well known to be kept a secret that long, a lot of the clues have to be red herrings, or have to be completely useless - so generic they never actually painted enough of the picture we could narrow it down. Which in many ways, feels like cheating - pretending that you will be doing an honest game, and then carefully ensuring that no-one can win it. That really doesn't strike me as something Rich would do, but plenty of people have disagreed (although they never have agreed on which clues are red herrings... significant bias has been involved).

    Quote Originally Posted by Coat View Post
    On that note, can I just take a moment to raise my hat at the rather excellent work you do on this thread? People probably don't comment on it enough. Your courtesy and clarity are much appreciated, and when one wants to discuss thoughts and observations on the MitD with an invested and excited 10-year-old it is a marvellous resource to have to hand. Thank you!
    I am very glad that is the case - that is what I intended this thread for when I took over. Thank you for your kind words.

    Grey Wolf
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  25. - Top - End - #925
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Mind you, another possible explanation for the stewpot scene (I join everyone else who said "nice catch" for your son, by the way!) would be that, if MitD were a Protean, he might be able to extrude a very long tongue without breaking his theoretical self-imposed rule of maintaining the same shape all the time. After all, a tongue is not your external shape; most of the time people don't even consciously see it, even when you open your mouth to talk. So he might consider this a loophole which enables him to get away with doing something he really, really wants to do.

    Seeking out technical loopholes would also be characteristic of MitD's childlike demeanor at that point in the comic. How many times have we experienced children who were told not to do "x", but creatively came up with a way to do exactly "x" while still somehow technically complying with what they were told? My kid was a genius at the age of 7. And a terror.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Also, everything Darth Paul just said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    [furiously scribbles notes on how Darth Paul is the MitD]

  26. - Top - End - #926
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    I don't think this can possibly be the case. If Rich, at ~#100, decided he wanted this out of the reveal ("at least 80% of his audience are kicking themselves for not seeing it before"), he'd have to pick a creature that was extremely well known, and yet carefully dole out clues in such a way that no-one would figure it out before the end. That's not a realistic objective, not when 99% of your readership are seriously into D&D (percentage has been diluted by non-players since then). I have long been in the camp of "Rich does not expect everyone to recognize it", mostly on the back of his assessment that he'd expect someone to figure out, rather than "everyone". We know he's been picturing the reveal for years now, so I expect he already has a plan on how to tell everyone that does NOT recognize it what he is, possibly more subtle than our usual go-to of "Elan is confused, and V explains in thorough detail".

    Grey Wolf
    V is confused, and Elan explains in thorough detail. The power of Bardic Knowledge! OK, OK, but seriously, i'd note that, whatever MITD's species, when you think about it, Rich has already explained what it is. Sure, he hasn't given the name, but even those of us who have never played D&D know what the MITD can do. He's very strong, can teleport people, is absurdly ugly...Sure, they don't know his exact species name, but, thanks to the clues revealed throughout this guessing game, they know what he can DO, which is what really matters.

  27. - Top - End - #927
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Coat View Post
    I just think it will be a magical/mythical creature with a snake-like body. For example, a bit of googling of Snake Monsters brought me to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakunawa
    Another point against the Bakunawa is that as a Philippines monster it could be found in the jungle. And another point in favour is that it causes eclipses, which would explain the umbrella.

  28. - Top - End - #928
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    And another point in favour is that it causes eclipses, which would explain the umbrella.
    ???

    Because... it would stop him from causing eclipses? I'm confused.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  29. - Top - End - #929
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ???

    Because... it would stop him from causing eclipses? I'm confused.
    It's thematic and a joke. If you were to show him he could cause an eclipse, making it dark for everyone.

  30. - Top - End - #930
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Additional information: In 1223 we learn that the trap in the tomb is divination + conjuration magic.

    We also know that the MITD did not detect the trap , or the MITD wouldn't have bothered painting the doors.

    So either the MITD didn't detect the magical emanations of the trap, or the MITD did but didn't know what they meant.

    If option #2, I don't think we have new information, but if option #1, does this give us any insight into the list of possible suspects which the MITD would be ?

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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