MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Ruck]

There is no reason to believe that RE's oldest child is evil, and Rich has outright stated RE was TN, and that children aren't evil unless shown to be explicitly evil.

Not to mention his statements about how he has a problem with the concept of entire races as Evil.

A far more parsimonious explanation is that the goblin family has been to the act often enough to not be surprised/affected by MitD's appearance anymore.

And yet, the kids still enjoy it, which suggests they're getting some kind of show worth returning to from a monster that literally just "stand[s] out on the stage and get[s] gawked at."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And yet, the kids still enjoy it, which suggests they're getting some kind of show worth returning to from a monster that literally just "stand[s] out on the stage and get[s] gawked at."

My five year old is currently sitting next to me watching frozen 2 for what I approximate to be upwards of the twentieth time since we got Disney plus three weeks ago. Do not underestimate the ability of small children to be entertained by something they have seen a bazillion times before.

GW

[Ruck]

My five year old is currently sitting next to me watching frozen 2 for what I approximate to be upwards of the twentieth time since we got Disney plus three weeks ago. Do not underestimate the ability of small children to be entertained by something they have seen a bazillion times before.

GW

The goblin kids seem older than five to me, but I wasn't really trying to disagree with you as much as supplement it (of course, you probably know the reason I highlighted that particular aspect of the kids' reaction to the show).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wasn't really trying to disagree with you as much as supplement it

... as was I to you.

GW

[Peelee]

My five year old is currently sitting next to me watching frozen 2 for what I approximate to be upwards of the twentieth time since we got Disney plus three weeks ago. Do not underestimate the ability of small children to be entertained by something they have seen a bazillion times before.

GW

You should put on Moana and try to get that to replace Frozen 2.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You should put on Moana and try to get that to replace Frozen 2.

I've tried pretty much every modern and not-so-modern Disney film, but they like Frozen.

GW

[Peelee]

I've tried pretty much every modern and not-so-modern Disney film, but they like Frozen.

GW

I regret to inform you that your kids are wrong.

Moana is the best Disney film and I will die on this hill.

[Ruck]

I finally saw The Emperor's New Groove a couple years ago. I thought that was pretty good.

[Keltest]

I finally saw The Emperor's New Groove a couple years ago. I thought that was pretty good.

Can confirm this is the real best Disney movie. And i'd wager my hill is more fortified than Peelee's.

[Peelee]

I finally saw The Emperor's New Groove a couple years ago. I thought that was pretty good.

Haven't seen, but heard good things. I mostly love Moana so much because there's really no overarching villain the hero must defeat and no love interest that she must get with. It's entirely about self-empowerment, which is more applicable to any viewer than a personal nemesis, and it does not have any reliance on needing to be with another person romantically. And I think that's beautiful.

And it doesn't hurt that I love the beach and the ocean and that dovetails in nicely with the best movie Disney has made so far.

[Ruck]

Haven't seen, but heard good things. I mostly love Moana so much because there's really no overarching villain the hero must defeat and no love interest that she must get with. It's entirely about self-empowerment, which is more applicable to any viewer than a personal nemesis, and it does not have any reliance on needing to be with another person romantically. And I think that's beautiful.

And it doesn't hurt that I love the beach and the ocean and that dovetails in nicely with the best movie Disney has made so far.

The Emperor's New Groove has a theme of, I guess, learning humility and to value and respect other people and treat them kindly. But mostly I like it because it's really funny, fast-paced, almost Looney Tunes-ish in some of its cartoonishness, has a fair share of sly meta humor, David Spade and John Goodman have great begrudging-to-eventual-buddy chemistry, and Patrick Warburton's Kronk is one of Disney's best comic-relief / second-banana characters.

It's also only 78 minutes long, which is good for kids and adults alike who like a movie to get in with all the good parts and then get out.

[Peelee]

David Spade and John Goodman, and Patrick Warburton

Oh, that's another thing. I have massive issues with most castings of live-action actors in voice-acting roles*. Dwayne Johnson, IIRC, has similar issues to it for the similar reasons and does a fair bit of work to ensure that he actually gives a fantastic performance. Plus, it's hard to describe but he always sounds like he's just having so much fun in his movies and he's just a joy to watch or listen to.

Also the Moana songs are also the best of any Disney movie.

*Patrick Warburton largely get a pass on this; you write the character specifically for his voice.

[Emanick]

The Emperor's New Groove has a theme of, I guess, learning humility and to value and respect other people and treat them kindly. But mostly I like it because it's really funny, fast-paced, almost Looney Tunes-ish in some of its cartoonishness, has a fair share of sly meta humor, David Spade and John Goodman have great begrudging-to-eventual-buddy chemistry, and Patrick Warburton's Kronk is one of Disney's best comic-relief / second-banana characters.

It's also only 78 minutes long, which is good for kids and adults alike who like a movie to get in with all the good parts and then get out.

As someone who also saw The Emperor's New Groove for the first time as an adult, I can confirm that it is definitely one of the best Disney movies. It's certainly the funniest Disney film that I've seen.

I'll admit that I don't really see the appeal of Moana, especially the musical numbers (with the exception of "Shiny," which is brilliant, catchy as heck, and does much to remedy the underrepresentation of decapods in the media), but most of my friends disagree with me on this, so I'm probably in the wrong. (Of course, these are some of the same people who unironically changed their Wi-Fi network name to "TLJ is the best Star Wars movie," so you may not want to be grouped in with them.)

[dancrilis]

Probably been discussed already but not seeing it in the opening posts.

What I don't understand is this.

Nale says Xykon was unaware that the Talisman of Dorukan lay within his dungeon. But Elan says Xykon built the dungeon, which is named the "Dungeon of Dorukan".

So did Elan botch some roll the "Summon Plot Exposition" required, or...what?

Not really. Reread #13 carefully:
"We quest in the deep dark Dungeon of Dorukan, a horrible pit filled with evil monsters.
Created by the mad lich Xykon..."

It's the MONSTERS that Xykon created, NOT the dungeon. And actually, that's not 100% true, since he didn't create goblins or ogres, but he did create zombies and ogre zombies and whatever is in the shadows there. But the intent is that Xykon is the one who turned it into a "horrible pit", not that he constructed the physical building. He trapped it, for example. But I know who Dorukan is and why his castle was standing empty, but it may take a while before that gets explained.

Further, Nale doesn't say that Xykon is unaware that the Talisman of Dorukan is in the dungeon, just that he is unaware that what Nale is LOOKING FOR is in the dungeon. As in, Nale didn't tell him he was looking for the Talisman of Dorukan and Xykon didn't ask.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing. ;)

Bolding for emphasis, now this was back in April 2004 so whatever the creature was intended to be might have changed after this but assuming it is the same creature that would make it something that Xykon could in theory create (even if the story moved away from that origin) - and we know from the quote that The Giant was thinking long term at the time he wrote the above knowing Dorukan story at the least.

[Ruck]

Looking over this, given that the comment was from April 2004-- which, from thread context, appears to be when the strip numbered in about the 50s-- and I believe it was around #100 that the Giant settled on the grand design of the plot, including MITD's species. Nothing that appears in comic before #100 contradicts what MITD is, but that may not hold for comments the Giant made on the forum prior to #100.

Aside, I stumbled upon this while reading some of the Giant's Q&As, and while it hasn't come up in a while, I believe a couple of people have tried to argue that MITD's species is more about the guessing game than his role in the story, and the answer to question 3 seems to put a nail in that idea once and for all (emphasis mine):

if he was something else then it wouldn’t fit everything that is going to happen and has already happened. It’s not a guessing game I added to the strip just for extracurricular fun and games, it’s part of the story. There’s no answer that’s better than what he is because everything written for the last 15 years has been written with that answer in mind.

[Keltest]

Aside, I stumbled upon this while reading some of the Giant's Q&As, and while it hasn't come up in a while, I believe a couple of people have tried to argue that MITD's species is more about the guessing game than his role in the story, and the answer to question 3 seems to put a nail in that idea once and for all (emphasis mine):

I dont think thats a fair analysis of peoples arguments. The guessing game exists to serve the story, but its doing so by being a guessing game. Clues are put out with the intention of A: being interesting until we get to the end, and B: not spoiling said ending. So to that end, following the rules of the game IS serving the story, because the mystery is as much a part of the story as the eventual reveal will be. So if it turns out that the mystery was never solvable, that the clues lied to us or that Rich cheated and gave us wrong information or something, then that defeats the whole point of having a mystery in the first place and massively disengages the audience.

Also, the story was almost certainly built around his species and not the other way around, if only from the sheer difficulty weve been having in finding something that cleanly fits all the clues without at least a little bit of interpretation. Rich writing the story and then hoping he finds something that does what he needed it to seems highly improbably at this point in time.

[Ruck]

I don't think you read or interpreted my post as I intended, but I'm not sure exactly how to clarify it.

I was talking about, to pull the first example I found (and not to pick on anyone specifically), an exchange like this:

Aside, I actually really, really would like to see a story-based case for any of the creatures besides the Protean. I couldn't come up with any, myself.

The counter-argument is that while this is exactly the kind of message we'd expect Later Rich Burlew to want to convey in his work, "what MitD is" was picked in 2004 and set in stone since.

But 2004 Rich picked MITD's species with his story role and character arc in mind, and he's still telling the same story.

lio seems to be implying that Rich chose MITD's species before he decided on the main story and the themes he wanted to explore with it. I am saying we have conclusive word from Rich that MITD's species is an important part of the story and the themes he wants to explore.

EDIT: Apparently I brought this up at the time, which is a good reminder that if I'm going to review the archives I should make sure I'm not repeating myself.

I don't think it needs to be added to the OP, but I do think it's something valuable for everyone to keep in mind when forming their theories and guesses-- MITD's species is not just a guessing game but an important part of who he is and the story.

[Keltest]

I don't think you read or interpreted my post as I intended, but I'm not sure exactly how to clarify it.

I was talking about, to pull the first example I found (and not to pick on anyone specifically), an exchange like this:







lio seems to be implying that Rich chose MITD's species before he decided on the main story and the themes he wanted to explore with it. I am saying we have conclusive word from Rich that MITD's species is an important part of the story and the themes he wants to explore.

EDIT: Apparently I brought this up at the time, which is a good reminder that if I'm going to review the archives I should make sure I'm not repeating myself.

Yeah, ok, and? The species would almost have to have been chosen before deciding what themes he would incorporate it into, because he cant well write a story about something that he doesn't know what it can do.

I just dont know what you think the significance of that statement is. No, the MITD was almost certainly not picked randomly or arbitrarily, but Its unbelievably unlikely that Rich wrote a story about a specific monster with certain themes pertaining to that monster, and then completely coincidentally found a monster that happened to fit those themes perfectly.

[Ruck]

Yeah, ok, and? The species would almost have to have been chosen before deciding what themes he would incorporate it into, because he cant well write a story about something that he doesn't know what it can do.

No, I don't think that is right. It's just as easy-- and more plausible, in my mind-- to say that Rich got the idea for what kind of character he wanted MITD to be and the story he wanted to tell with MITD, then chose the species that best fit that story.

I just dont know what you think the significance of that statement is. No, the MITD was almost certainly not picked randomly or arbitrarily, but Its unbelievably unlikely that Rich wrote a story about a specific monster with certain themes pertaining to that monster, and then completely coincidentally found a monster that happened to fit those themes perfectly.

The point is that Rich chose MITD's species based on the story he wanted to tell, and not simply for what he thought would make the best guessing game.

[Keltest]

No, I don't think that is right. It's just as easy-- and more plausible, in my mind-- to say that Rich got the idea for what kind of character he wanted MITD to be and the story he wanted to tell with MITD, then chose the species that best fit that story.

The fact that we, a group of dozens of contributors over many years, have seen a good 80+ % of the story and still cant do that would seem to suggest that this is less likely than you are asserting. The stars would have had to align something fierce for it to work out that way.

The point is that Rich chose MITD's species based on the story he wanted to tell, and not simply for what he thought would make the best guessing game.

The corollary to that is that the mystery (not necessarily the guessing game itself, but closely linked to it) is part of the story he is telling. So having a strong mystery with a good resolution (ie, the best guessing game) is serving the story. It is, of course, not the only part of the story, but having the audience wonder and speculate about whats under the umbrella is a very intentional thing as well.

[Ruck]

The fact that we, a group of dozens of contributors over many years, have seen a good 80+ % of the story and still cant do that would seem to suggest that this is less likely than you are asserting. The stars would have had to align something fierce for it to work out that way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say or how it's relevant, which makes me think we've been talking about two different things.

[Keltest]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say or how it's relevant, which makes me think we've been talking about two different things.

This seems likely. To me, you seem to be suggesting that Rich wrote his story, included the role of the MITD as well as its broad capabilities and characteristics, and then went hunting for a monster that fit those capabilities in basically the same order that we in this thread have been doing so. But you keep indicating that isnt what you mean even though that is, to my reading, the literal meaning of the words youre posting and i cant figure out what else you could be trying to say that isnt largely unrelated to the point of the thread.

[Ruck]

My original point was in response to the idea that Rich didn't care about the themes of the story when he picked MITD's species, and those themes weren't developed until later. I'm saying that idea is wrong. I don't think there's much dispute on that at this point, though.

[Keltest]

My original point was in response to the idea that Rich didn't care about the themes of the story when he picked MITD's species, and those themes weren't developed until later. I'm saying that idea is wrong. I don't think there's much dispute on that at this point, though.

Yeah, i get that, and im saying that its far more likely that Rich saw a monster, said something to the effect of "ooo, i could write a really good story with this!" and proceeded to do so than that he wrote a story without a specific monster in mind and happened to stumble on a monster that completely coincidentally fit them perfectly.

[halfeye]

My original point was in response to the idea that Rich didn't care about the themes of the story when he picked MITD's species, and those themes weren't developed until later. I'm saying that idea is wrong. I don't think there's much dispute on that at this point, though.

I don't remember this argument but it seems a reasonable discussion to have. I remember an interview with an author who'd written a really long sequence of books who said that he didn't know at first how it was eventually going to work out, but left opportunities in the early stages that he could exploit later, which in some cases he did. I would guess that the major themes of the OotS were things that the giant cared about long before he began the story. I guess that the species of the MitD was established long before the final form of the story was set in stone, I would expect that some relatively minor aspects of the story are still being worked out now.

[Ruck]

I don't remember this argument but it seems a reasonable discussion to have. I remember an interview with an author who'd written a really long sequence of books who said that he didn't know at first how it was eventually going to work out, but left opportunities in the early stages that he could exploit later, which in some cases he did. I would guess that the major themes of the OotS were things that the giant cared about long before he began the story. I guess that the species of the MitD was established long before the final form of the story was set in stone, I would expect that some relatively minor aspects of the story are still being worked out now.

Well, Rich's own words have made clear that the MITD's species and reveal is an important part of the whole story, and not solely there so people can try to guess what he is.

Yeah, i get that, and im saying that its far more likely that Rich saw a monster, said something to the effect of "ooo, i could write a really good story with this!" and proceeded to do so than that he wrote a story without a specific monster in mind and happened to stumble on a monster that completely coincidentally fit them perfectly.

I don't think it has to be either of those options. I think it's more likely Rich thought about the character journey he wanted MITD to undergo, and found a monster that fit that journey. I suppose he could have found the monster and then realized "if MITD was this, then it fits if I want to tell this story," but at that point we're splitting hairs, I think. My point is just that the species is relevant to the character journey.

[dancrilis]

Aside, I actually really, really would like to see a story-based case for any of the creatures besides the Protean. I couldn't come up with any, myself.

I will try to answer this.

I have Grey Render listed against my name in the opening posts.

Now Grey Renders cannot really do anything that the MitD does as such on a pure basis of where does the evidence point it points pretty far away from this guess to the extent that if I turn out to be correct I imagine that some people might get actually angry at the comic for the reveal.

However in the early comic we had a creature who latched onto the villains and sought to protect them (as renders do) and who would be a tough enough fight for characters that normally run away from goblins - expanding that out the creature is of human intelligence and so capable of the same rationality as an adult human - putting it on a path to overcoming its nature (and argueable also its nurture) and using that intelligence to make its own decisions might be the story that The Giant wants to tell.

Extra powers can be templates etc.

Do I think this likely no - but from a story prespective I see no problem with it (from a guessing game prespective it likely would feel like a cheat answer).

[halfeye]

Well, Rich's own words have made clear that the MITD's species and reveal is an important part of the whole story, and not solely there so people can try to guess what he is.

I never said that I think the MitD's species is only there for the guessing contest, because I don't believe that at all. I do think it is very likely that the species of the MitD was picked before the whole story was written, in part because it's probably not all written yet, for one thing imagine the drudgery of drawing pages whose every detail was known beforehand.

I don't think it has to be either of those options. I think it's more likely Rich thought about the character journey he wanted MITD to undergo, and found a monster that fit that journey. I suppose he could have found the monster and then realized "if MITD was this, then it fits if I want to tell this story," but at that point we're splitting hairs, I think. My point is just that the species is relevant to the character journey.

Clearly, the species is relevant to the story (MitD had to be threatening), but I think it can be equally true that the story can be relevant to the species.

[Throknor]

...I do think it is very likely that the species of the MitD was picked before the whole story was written, in part because it's probably not all written yet...

I think there's a difference between a story being "written" as finished versus the story being "written" as all the plot points and the majority of characters being outlined. Rich already knows the main things the characters are going to do just not what they might say along the way or do that really doesn't matter.

I have three examples.
1) Rich is on record in his commentary that Blackwing became a vocal character as he discovered how much he enjoyed writing his dialogue. It's not on record but I highly doubt that change affected V's overall arc much whatsoever.
2) He's also on record that he originally though Miko would be more of a romantic interest for Roy but once he started writing the actual strips she appeared in that changed. What didn't change was her dragging the Order to Azure city. Though it is debatable if she was always going to be the one that shattered the Gate as O-Chul never shared it and is currently taking the blame for wanting to anyway.
3) The current strip 1130. That the order would be sitting in a secret hallway at the last gate was probably plotted some time ago. That Elan would pass the time reviewing past party actions may have been planned at the start of this book. What he (and the others) literally said probably wouldn't have been written until Rich actually started working on the page.

[halfeye]

I think there's a difference between a story being "written" as finished versus the story being "written" as all the plot points and the majority of characters being outlined. Rich already knows the main things the characters are going to do just not what they might say along the way or do that really doesn't matter.

I have three examples.
1) Rich is on record in his commentary that Blackwing became a vocal character as he discovered how much he enjoyed writing his dialogue. It's not on record but I highly doubt that change affected V's overall arc much whatsoever.
2) He's also on record that he originally though Miko would be more of a romantic interest for Roy but once he started writing the actual strips she appeared in that changed. What didn't change was her dragging the Order to Azure city. Though it is debatable if she was always going to be the one that shattered the Gate as O-Chul never shared it and is currently taking the blame for wanting to anyway.
3) The current strip 1130. That the order would be sitting in a secret hallway at the last gate was probably plotted some time ago. That Elan would pass the time reviewing past party actions may have been planned at the start of this book. What he (and the others) literally said probably wouldn't have been written until Rich actually started working on the page.

We are talking about Strip 100, that's a long time ago.

Nale's death may have been written at that time, or it may not, but the exact manner and motivation for it I very much doubt was written by strip 100, and Laurin's encounter with the snarl I'm almost certain wasn't. I'm sure there was a broad outline in place by strip 100, but I'm sure the MitD's species made all sorts of interpretations of that possible, and maybe even caused a minor change or two along the way, for instance if Miko changed then the tower scene probably changed.