MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Doug Lampert]

Or slaad, or...most epic monsters really.

And in general, as I've said on this specific subject before, I think "let's assume that particular clue is not a clue" is a bad approach. The creature tosses off "your stupid half a ritual" like he knew it at a glance. Could Rich handwave "actually Xykon casually mentioned, in front of the creature in the darkness, a vital piece of information he did not give to the person whom he wanted to figure out the ritual for him," if his plan has actually been that the creature in the darkness is something with no skills relevant there? Sure--he could. But even setting aside how logical or not this particular "that's a red herring" interpretation would be, I actually doubt Rich has been deliberately throwing "red herrings" at all; I don't think he would find any particular enjoyment in being able to go, "Aha! You foolishly trusted what my comic appeared to be telling you and didn't know this thing you had no way of knowing and so you failed to guess what the creature is!"

I find this argument somewhat compelling. Let's look at my recorded guesses from Crusher's list:

Wile E. Coyote would know about the ritual at a glance due to the whole supergenius thing.

I'm not sure how the Carbosilicate Amorph would know, but Schlock at least is a lot smarter than he looks and is stunningly good at overhearing things he's not supposed to (his entire body senses vibrations, so he basically hears anything and everything from within an absurd distance). But while other amorphs are different from Schlock personality wise, I don't think any of them would try to pretend to have figured something out when they'd just overheard it. This is a definite strike against Amorph.

Redcloak's Niece would know about it due to the fact that she's every character, and some character's know.

Crusher, due to his silly rules, left off my other two guesses of Snoralax and Protean, so who knows about them.

[Crusher]

I find this argument somewhat compelling. Let's look at my recorded guesses from Crusher's list:

Wile E. Coyote would know about the ritual at a glance due to the whole supergenius thing.

I'm not sure how the Carbosilicate Amorph would know, but Schlock at least is a lot smarter than he looks and is stunningly good at overhearing things he's not supposed to (his entire body senses vibrations, so he basically hears anything and everything from within an absurd distance). But while other amorphs are different from Schlock personality wise, I don't think any of them would try to pretend to have figured something out when they'd just overheard it. This is a definite strike against Amorph.

Redcloak's Niece would know about it due to the fact that she's every character, and some character's know.

Crusher, due to his silly rules, left off my other two guesses of Snoralax and Protean, so who knows about them.

You're not saying I implemented that rule specifically to thwart you, right? Because that would be silly.

(laughs nervously)

Why would I pay attention to any one person's predictions? There are dozens of them. Surely I can't track all those details!

(starts sweating)

I would never... (checks watch) Oh, I have to go be at a thing. It's... over there, so I have to go. Now.

(whispers to self "They're onto me. DAMMIT! I was so careful!")

[Ruck]

Crusher, due to his silly rules, left off my other two guesses of Snoralax and Protean, so who knows about them.

Well, the Protean has detect thoughts at will and +55 to listen; it's possible he picked it up from Xykon or Redcloak's thoughts or from overhearing some conversation long ago. A Protean's psionics also operate as a 20th level caster, plus INT 20 and WIS 23-- no idea how those might affect what it would know about magic rituals and the like.

[Peelee]

Wile E. Coyote would know about the ritual at a glance due to the whole supergenius thing.

It will never cease to please me that Wile E. Coyote continues to fit clues so well.

[Keltest]

It will never cease to please me that Wile E. Coyote continues to fit clues so well.

Wile E. is fully grown. The MITD is clearly Calamity Coyote, his young protégé.

[Jasdoif]

Wile E. is fully grown. The MITD is clearly Calamity Coyote, his young protégé.

Calamity doesn't have yellow eyes, though.

[Keltest]

Calamity doesn't have yellow eyes, though.

He works on rule of funny. His eyes can glow if it's part of the act.

[Peelee]

Wile E. is fully grown. The MITD is clearly Calamity Coyote, his young protégé.

That is covered in the initial Wile E Coyote proposal.

[Edreyn]

Are there any monsters that existed in 2nd edition, and never was revived in 3.5? I found a website with 2nd ed creatures, and there are some candidates that I considered, but none can actually do advanced magic and have ultra-strength at the same time. And those who could fit aren't ugly. Was any such creature proposed before me?

Actually there is something.
There is something called "Monster of legend". From description, it's not someone specific, but something like a template. It can "update" any base creature to "legendary" status. From given examples, the result creature can be completely invulnarable to slashing and piercing damage (Nemean lion).

From same page - legendary sphinx gaze can turn person fascinated.

Can MitD be legendary version of someone. Maybe the base creature is ugly and gluttonous, maybe can cast some minor spells, and the legendary "upgrade" grants him strength and tough skin?

Or the other way around.

Again me can consider creatures from both 2 and 3.5 editions.

It could fit "fine line" - base creature is not Rich's creation, and the legendary is.

I don't know who we can look on, but I'd ignore strength and armor, and go for gluttony, ability to cause earthquake and teleport others. Just a gut feeling.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Are there any monsters that existed in 2nd edition, and never was revived in 3.5?

Yes, many.

There is something called "Monster of legend". From description, it's not someone specific, but something like a template.

See section 2d

GW

[Edreyn]

Okay, I'll try to check specific pre 3.5 monsters. Will write if have a better idea.

[wrn]

Does the monster demonstrate having a Will Save? Comic 74 shows that outdated monsters in the comic do not.

[Squire Doodad]

Does the monster demonstrate having a Will Save? Comic 74 shows that outdated monsters in the comic do not.

Nothing specifically shows that, but there's no reason to believe MitD is or isn't a 2nd edition creature.
That said, none seem to have come up as a FBS candidate, and it does bring the question of how MitD wasn't drawn into the pit of outdated creatures. I guess Xykon could have slapped him out of it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I guess Xykon could have slapped him out of it.

No, that would contradict SoD. The issue of how a theoretical 2nd Ed MitD left/avoided the pit is indeed one of the major issues for any such suggestion.

GW

[Squire Doodad]

No, that would contradict SoD. The issue of how a theoretical 2nd Ed MitD left/avoided the pit is indeed one of the major issues for any such suggestion.

GW

Is the pit described in more detail in SoD? What properties does it have?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Is the pit described in more detail in SoD? What properties does it have?

SoD shows that MitD was living in the jungle, not in the pit, when he was captured at the start of his story. He doesn't meet Xykon for the first time until much later.

The pit is just a pit. the reason the 2nd ed creatures are there is due to Dorukan's amulet, as described in the online comic.

GW

[Squire Doodad]

I guess then the question is whether the amulet has infinite range, or if it just affected the area they were in...
But given the lack of 2e monsters, I'd have to guess it did quite well.

[Edreyn]

How can "Suggestion" spell or ability be twisted with the "rule of funny"?

Sources say that:

1) It must not bring to self damage
2) Must be reasonable
3) Target must understand it

What it doesn't directly say is that target mist be physically able to do it!

What if MitD used a "Suggestion" and it caused V to cast Teleport (or whatever) himself (or herself)? Yes, it sounds crazy. It's logical to assume that target must have the ability to do requied action, and that spellcasting requires at the very least to say the spell name.

But this is a comic, and rule of funny is often used. Also, there are feats allowing to cast silently.

Also, when V used suggestion to order dragon to vomit - I don't know about dragons, but humans can't vomit at will. They need either to have some sickness, or use specific drugs, or somehow else to cause vomit. And V's spell caused dragon to do it right away.

So maybe the spell can cause the target to act even if some conditions aren't met?

If we can assume this is possible, we can extend the list of creatures able to use Teleport/Wish/Miracle with those who can use Suggestion, and there are much more of those.

[Squire Doodad]

How can "Suggestion" spell or ability be twisted with the "rule of funny"?

Sources say that:

1) It must not bring to self damage
2) Must be reasonable
3) Target must understand it

What it doesn't directly say is that target mist be physically able to do it!

What if MitD used a "Suggestion" and it caused V to cast Teleport (or whatever) himself (or herself)? Yes, it sounds crazy. It's logical to assume that target must have the ability to do requied action, and that spellcasting requires at the very least to say the spell name.

But this is a comic, and rule of funny is often used. Also, there are feats allowing to cast silently.

Also, when V used suggestion to order dragon to vomit - I don't know about dragons, but humans can't vomit at will. They need either to have some sickness, or use specific drugs, or somehow else to cause vomit. And V's spell caused dragon to do it right away.

So maybe the spell can cause the target to act even if some conditions aren't met?

If we can assume this is possible, we can extend the list of creatures able to use Teleport/Wish/Miracle with those who can use Suggestion, and there are much more of those.

Humans can cause themselves to vomit by sticking a finger into their mouth, basically.

Also, that argument doesn't really sync up with the rest of the aftermath of the scene, plus it didn't seem like a Rule of Funny moment. Very serious all the way through. Not to mention circumstance 2 is arguably violated by it; it's not reasonable to assume someone will do something they are bound by the laws of magic to be incapable of.
If there was precedent for it, I could see that, but it seems a bit iffy as is.

[Peelee]

How can "Suggestion" spell or ability be twisted with the "rule of funny"?

Sources say that:

1) It must not bring to self damage
2) Must be reasonable
3) Target must understand it

What it doesn't directly say is that target mist be physically able to do it!

What if MitD used a "Suggestion" and it caused V to cast Teleport (or whatever) himself (or herself)? Yes, it sounds crazy. It's logical to assume that target must have the ability to do requied action, and that spellcasting requires at the very least to say the spell name.

But this is a comic, and rule of funny is often used. Also, there are feats allowing to cast silently.

Also, when V used suggestion to order dragon to vomit - I don't know about dragons, but humans can't vomit at will. They need either to have some sickness, or use specific drugs, or somehow else to cause vomit. And V's spell caused dragon to do it right away.

So maybe the spell can cause the target to act even if some conditions aren't met?

If we can assume this is possible, we can extend the list of creatures able to use Teleport/Wish/Miracle with those who can use Suggestion, and there are much more of those.

Suggestion

You influence the actions of the target creature by suggesting a course of activity (limited to a sentence or two).

V cannot cast Teleport; thus, that is not an action they can take, regardless of how much influence is on them. Much like one cannot use Suggestion to influence the commoner next door to cast Wish for you.

[Tortoise]

Apologies in advance for what may be an often-asked dumb-ass question, but has the Giant hinted how long it's going to be before the MitD's species is revealed? I seem to recall that we're on the last major planned storyline but that of course could take years to run its course.

[Squire Doodad]

Apologies in advance for what may be an often-asked dumb-ass question, but has the Giant hinted how long it's going to be before the MitD's species is revealed? I seem to recall that we're on the last major planned storyline but that of course could take years to run its course.

Before the end of the series
Otherwise, * shrug *

[Edreyn]

How do we know, did anyone ever try to used suggestion on commoner for such result?

Maybe just suggesting "Escape" was enough to well, escape, without any spellcasting involved.

That's why I said about rule of funny. There are many illogical things in OotS.

[Squire Doodad]

How do we know, did anyone ever try to used suggestion on commoner for such result?

Maybe just suggesting "Escape" was enough to well, escape, without any spellcasting involved.

That's why I said about rule of funny. There are many illogical things in OotS.

This is a serious in-depth analysis with the only Rule of Funny being working off of things that have actually happened. Whether or not that's enough justification insofar as Rich is concerned, it isn't automatically applicable here.

[Edreyn]

I am writing this, because there are many monsters that can use Suggestion and meet other conditions.

Thought about the possibility of Escape Scene using Suggestion and wanted to share it.

We don't have any new information anyway, so why not to discuss something.

[Kish]

I think it's real unlikely that Rich is going to suddenly pull "in my comic, Suggestion is effectively Wish, because I say so" at this late date.

(I am eternally mystified that some people seem have gotten through six books of OotS and still be expecting a shaggy dog story.)

[Ruck]

Apologies in advance for what may be an often-asked dumb-ass question, but has the Giant hinted how long it's going to be before the MitD's species is revealed? I seem to recall that we're on the last major planned storyline but that of course could take years to run its course.

"The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen."

[Precure]

It would be a cool twist, but I believe the "must be reasonable" exclude actions like that.

[AlhazTheRed]

Anyone else feel like the Beholder appearance in the new comic might make WotC copyrighted creatures more likely than maybe we've previously credited thanks to the Illithid (TM) Incident?

[Squire Doodad]

Anyone else feel like the Beholder appearance in the new comic might make WotC copyrighted creatures more likely than maybe we've previously credited thanks to the Illithid (TM) Incident?

I personally do not think Sunny is going to be meant to foreshadow MitD being a copyrighted creature, but it does lighten that burden slightly.
That said, iirc the only one that would become a FBS this way would be Snorlax (and the Amorph, but that's already handwaved in because Rich is good friends with Howard Tayler). Most of the rest have some sort of other issue mechanically speaking.