MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[lio45]

So clearly the size restriction isn't completely shutting down discussion of "too-large" monsters. I mean, just to be practical about it, do you have a monster you would like to propose (but haven't) because its too large?

There are two that I feel could be interesting candidates and I'd like them to receive a fair evaluation, something which is more likely to happen if they aren't blatantly failing to meet the official shortlist of criteria as soon as we start. (Ha-Naga, which AFAIK, is Epic, has Wish, has yellow eyes, high Charisma, a Resistance ability that could explain why Miko/Belkar can't hurt him, etc. and may be able to explain sending Miko/Windstriker flying, by using some sort of telekinesis (the logic would be, that's what MitD has always used to grab stuff, since he has no hands); and the other is the Xenocrysth).

I do agree that the 30-STR baseline should be listed in the FBS requirements as well - although if B, C or F passes the vote, then that would happen anyway, of course.

I think it's unnecessarily redundant, but it also is just a few characters. Added.

Any reason why that requirement should exist, beyond explaining hitting Miko/Windstriker in the Tower Scene? (Genuine question, I might have missed something.)

If not, then IMO FBS Condition #2 in its current wording is superior to a sheer STR requirement, and already covers that (in other words, FBS Condition #2 can be met either by sufficient physical strength, which by consensus is >=30 at the very least, or by other plausible means.)


Edit - just to clarify, by "current wording of FBS Condition #2", I meant the wording of the past few years up to a few minutes ago.

[Quartz]

Any reason why that requirement should exist, beyond explaining hitting Miko/Windstriker in the Tower Scene? (Genuine question, I might have missed something.)

I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.

[Sir_Norbert]

There are two that I feel could be interesting candidates and I'd like them to receive a fair evaluation, something which is more likely to happen if they aren't blatantly failing to meet the official shortlist of criteria as soon as we start. (Ha-Naga, which AFAIK, is Epic, has Wish, has yellow eyes, high Charisma, a Resistance ability that could explain why Miko/Belkar can't hurt him, etc. and may be able to explain sending Miko/Windstriker flying, by using some sort of telekinesis (the logic would be, that's what MitD has always used to grab stuff, since he has no hands); and the other is the Xenocrysth).

I mean, you can always re-read the last several threads if you like. Ha-Naga has been discussed and evaluated ad nauseam.

Now that option I exists, I change my vote to C > B > I > Z > !(D,E).

[Quebbster]

I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.

I find it unlikely that the MitD would suggest a "who can hit the lightest" contest and then use some sort of telekinesis ability instead of just hitting Miko. But that's just me.
But a Strength below 30 probably shouldn't be disqualifying if there is another way to explain the Tower scene.

[Gareth235]

My best guesses - and they are just guesses - is that the MITD will be something even we non gamers can recognise. I wonder if he might be the son of one of the (allegedly extinct) Eastern Gods?
(I also wondered if “the other Dark One” might be related to the actual Dark One, but surely Redcloak would have recognised him. Ignore me, I’m rambling.)

[Quebbster]

My best guesses - and they are just guesses - is that the MITD will be something even we non gamers can recognise. I wonder if he might be the son of one of the (allegedly extinct) Eastern Gods?
(I also wondered if “the other Dark One” might be related to the actual Dark One, but surely Redcloak would have recognised him. Ignore me, I’m rambling.)

Very unlikely due to stuff happening in Start of Darkness.

[b_jonas]

Heck this thread got long quickly.

Let me list the sizes and strengths for some of the monsters currently in the FBS section. Can you help me out here? Originally I wanted to know if option F would leave too few entries in the FBS, but even apart from that, if size is so important to us, I hope you'll mention the sizes explicitly in the entries when you edit them.

Athasian Nightmare Beast: Huge, Str 30.
Glabrezu: Large, Str 31.
Hagunemnon (Protean): Large, Str 53.
Hunting Horror: maybe Huge?, Str 34.
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Medium, Str ?
Slaad, White: Large, Str 36.
Slaad, Black: Huge, Str 42.
Uvuudaum: Large, Str 39.
Xenocrysth: Gargantuan, Str 43.
Zodar: Medium, Str 45.

have no FBS entries that are Medium or smaller,

So the Carbosilicate amorph is Large?

Update: edited the size to the Amorph, Slaad, Xenocrysth. Thanks, Grey Wolf.
Update 2020-07-19: added precise data to Slaad and strength to Xenocrysth, thanks Jasdoif.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I find it unlikely that the MitD would suggest a "who can hit the lightest" contest and then use some sort of telekinesis ability instead of just hitting Miko. But that's just me.

Not just you. Other than "because otherwise my suggestion won't explain the scene", I don't recall ever hearing a reason anywhere solid that'd explain why MitD would propose a hitting lightly game, and then proceed to use either strength-enhancing abilities or, if somehow "hitting" can really be translated to "spellcasting", and MitD, despite at that point still not being aware of his powers, tapping into it it on purpose, and selecting a ludicrously powerful level 8 or 9 spell. The sheer amount of stretching of meaning of language, and the jumping of the gun on MitD's development is well past the reasonableness horizon.

My best guesses - and they are just guesses - is that the MITD will be something even we non gamers can recognise. I wonder if he might be the son of one of the (allegedly extinct) Eastern Gods?
(I also wondered if “the other Dark One” might be related to the actual Dark One, but surely Redcloak would have recognised him. Ignore me, I’m rambling.)

Please be aware of the standard issues with any kind of deity suggestion, as listed in 3b:

First, note that "a god" is not a specific proposal. There are hundreds to pick from, many with wildly different capabilities. Furthermore:

• If they have D&D stats, they will have Divine Ranks, which automatically gives them immunity to mind control (see Section 2c: Categories). This applies even to demigods (rank 1-5).
• They can speak every language - unsurprising they can talk
• Why would the SBGH think there is a market in selling deities?
• Any deity RC would consider appropriate for his team (Evil/Neutral ones) can Animate Dead, or copy it through Miracle.

In your case, you did narrow it down to "the Eastern gods"... but they're dead. Even if the snarl didn't kill them all, they've been out of belief and worshippers for billions of worlds. If their children aren't god-like to need prayer and worship and faith... then they are just people, not gods. Finally, if there are eastern gods still around, suddenly RC is not needed to seal the gates. Because of that, I think that the chance of them showing up in the plot is practically 0.

Also, the circus scene is quite clearly saying MitD is not easy to recognize? Not to mention that when Rich decided to make it a guessing game, I'd imagine he'd had wanted to pick a particularly obscure monster, if there were any that fit the bill of needs, just so the game would last. Not suggesting that need was above other considerations such as "how it'll fit in the plot" but that, if anything, he'd had stayed away from recognisable creatures.

So the Carbosilicate amorph is Large?

He can be. He can be ludicrously large, if fed enough, and he gains strength when he does. But no, he is Medium-ish, but I don't think that can be counted against him.

I have vague recollections that the white slaad is Huge and the black one is Large? Or maybe it was the other way round?

Xenocrysth is gargantuan.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

In #661, right before the Escape, it looks like Xykon breaks the walls of that tower. Does he? It doesn't look like he just comes in on the existing hole.

How does Xykon do that? Was the wall weakened by the gate explosion, or by some wall-weakening effect from the MitD? Was he using a spell? What spell? A magic item? Are azurite walls weak for some reason? Does Xykon just have 30 Str somehow? Unlikely for a human skeletal lich, sorcerer, but not impossible. Do liches get a Str penalty from their age category or from the age Xykon was when he died? Did Rich specifically put that wall breaking in to imply something about breaking walls to geeks who overanalyze his comic?

Yes, I'm asking this because of the tower scene.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In #661, right before the Escape, it looks like Xykon breaks the walls of that tower. Does he? It doesn't look like he just comes in on the existing hole.

There is a black aura around his hands, so magic of some description would be my guess. The scene seems to be conveying his anger boiling over into his magic. But if he needed an actual spell, he is fond of the meteors.

GW

[Jaxzan Proditor]

But again, if all the new entries that have been added were kept off only due to size, then by definition, we want to take a fresh look at all of them.

If Squire Doodad's prediction is correct that it may cause the list to swell to 40 entries, which we all agree is unwieldy, then the correct fix for that is to tighten the FBS criteria in the way the community prefers to do that, which is going to be by something OTHER than "species size must fit in the box" this time.

I agree with Grey Wolf that something that's "as poor a fit as Glabrezu, plus it's Colossal" shouldn't be on the list. If there's such chaff on the list, then that means it's up to us to tighten the requirements to keep it off.

For example, something I've always wanted to add to the FBS requirements would be a minimum CR. I think that when Xykon says "there's nothing in that tower that's scarier than you", that scene is a strict super-solid disqualifier of any lowish CR FBS candidates.

I suppose this comes down to how you view the use of the FBS list to begin with. Personally, I would much rather have it stay at a small size so that it can be a useful introduction than to have it balloon even if it lists more potential options. In the end, it’s not as though one can never either look at 3e or just pay attention to discussion happening in the thread about other potential options. (You’ll note I do still support option A, mostly because I don’t think it would actually expand the FBS list much. Looking at Spirare/Jasdoif‘s list, I think it’s likely we’d only add a few options on there as, for instance, the Ha-Naga and Ghour remain to weak.)

If there are other criteria out there that would help page down the list, I’d certainly be open to them. Clearly, the size one until recently was the way the community preferred to do it, but it’s possible other options exist. CR is definitely not one I‘d use.

[Joerg]

My vote: C > I > A > any of (G, H) > Z > E > B

Regarding the current strength criterion, my understanding was that strength 30+ is the only plausible explanation for the tower scene by thread consensus. So it was kind of implicit in requirement 2.

[Crusher]

Reviewing this list (I'll assume it's complete...

First off, you did a great job going through the list. Seriously, nice work.

Sadly, it’s not a complete list. For starters, I don’t see the Nexus Dragon (which I may have even said at the time probably wasn’t worth including as an actual guess because it obviously wasn’t MitD, in part because it was like CR3500 or something and a multi-verse scale threat).

If we pass A, I’ll bet 10 galactic units I can come up with at least 3 candidates not on 3e that more or less meet the criteria but are obviously way too big. In a day, let’s say.

Edit - Oooh, the Immortals Handbook only came out in 2007. I guess that was the issue with the Nexus Dragon. It's got some wild monsters.

Edit2 -

has yellow eyes

Ok, I'm probably going to regret this again, but where is the reference to the Ha-Naga having yellow eyes? Neither the Epic Handbook nor the SRD mention it, and the eyes in the artwork are just regular, non-yellow, non-glowing eyes.

[b_jonas]

For the vote concerning reorganization of section 3a in first posts, my vote is D (remove FBS section) would be best, then F (destroy it so everyone finds it useless and ignores it), FI (same), E (remove but make popularity vote section), B, C, CI, Z, BI.

[LadyEowyn]

I’m voting for option A (remove the size limitation, leave all else the same).

[lio45]

Now that it's pretty clear Z isn't going to win this time, it starts to be worth actually voting for the option I prefer over the ones I like slightly less, so I'll update my vote to

A, !Z

[Jasdoif]

Let me list the sizes and strengths for some of the monsters currently in the FBS section. Can you help me out here? Originally I wanted to know if option F would leave too few entries in the FBS, but even apart from that, if size is so important to us, I hope you'll mention the sizes explicitly in the entries when you edit them.

Athasian Nightmare Beast: Huge, Str 30.
Glabrezu: Large, Str 31.
Hagunemnon (Protean): Large, Str 53.
Hunting Horror: maybe Huge?, Str 34.
Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Medium, Str ?
Slaad: maybe Large for black Slaad and huge for white Slaad, Str ?
Uvuudaum: Large, Str 39.
Xenocrysth: Gargantuan, Str ?.
Zodar: Medium, Str 45.

White slaad is Large and Str 36, black slaad is Huge and Str 42, xenocrysth is Gargantuan and Str 43.

[Ortho]

I'll place my votes for A > C > !E > !Z

The size restriction has caused nearly two threads worth of arguments. Let's just axe it. And if not, at least make it as lenient as possible.

E will be an utter headache to keep track of, and I disagree with only showcasing X amount of candidates anyways.

---

Also, i am confused as to why option A has an asterisk on it given that it is a simple removal of one of the FBS requirements, as near as i can tell, while option E, which requires an ill defined new system, does not. The asterisk represents an expectation that people who vote for it come up with whatever it actually requires, yes?

No, the asterisk indicates that that option triggers my "if you guys vote for this, you better do the hard part of the job" clause


I've never had to pull the trigger on this option before now, but I added it back at the very start, because there was a vocal minority asking to divide 3e into a point system where each scene gave a suggestion a point, and then "we" were supposed to tally the points, etc. It look like such a horrendous amount of work that I put in a escape clause that I would be allowed to refuse to do consensus votes that I just could not face. Admittedly, finding all the large monsters that would now be FBS are not quite as bad as that, but it is bad enough I'm giving fair warning that I will NOT be finding them all - I'll expect someone who voted for it to give me the list.

Grey Wolf

I'm missing something. Wouldn't any change to FBS criteria require us to reevaluate the candidates? I'm not seeing how option A is more strenuous than... well, any other option except I or Z.

[3Power]

As much as the protean has not convinced me, I don't think you're giving it a fair shake here. If Escape can be explained by protean's shapeshifting, I'd bet dollars to donuts that the earthquake could too, if it's not just a function of the large strength, which the protean has. additionally, the fluff does imply that while it can speak all languages, they generally only speak their weird protean language that's hard to recognize as a language, which explains the BGH lines just fine. And If I say a living pile of boiling shapeshifter coming to attack me, I might be inclined to call it a beast.

AFAIK, no sort of Earthquake ability that the protean could use has been found. Regardless, I have turned it into a for the strength. I have also turned the language issue into a The beast thing is already a , which indicates there are points to be made on either side.

The Protean shouldn't have both a for not having Wish and also for Greater Teleport being inconsistent (though we do have evidence he has met a creature that can teleport, in the form of a teleporting beetle thing in one of the books); it should just be that the most viable explanations for the Escape scene involve a lucky shapeshift.

It has two because it is strictly worse twice over. It doesn't have wish, which makes it strictly worse than creatures that do, and it doesn't have greater teleport, which makes it strictly worse than creatures that do. It does have an ability that lets it borrow an ex ability that acts like the spell greater teleport, but that is worse than just having it because it violates occams razor.

Meanwhile, we've argued at length and concluded among the majority of us that there's a logical explanation working within MitD and the fluff that means a Protean MitD could maintain 2 eyes, and also that he wouldn't be normally speaking Common.

The entire point of my list was to bypass community consensus on issues like this and provide fully factual writeups. The protean's eye issue has because not only does it not have the right kind of eyes, the explanation for why it doesn't goes against it's very nature.

and in general the Ha-Naga part completely disregards the size issue (removing the size restriction wouldn't stop size from being an issue) and that STR for a Colossal creature is worthy no matter which way you slice it.

The list explicitly works under the assumption that Rich took the creature, shrunk it's size, and made no other changes to HD, STR, or anything else. Size will never be reflected on that list for any creature above medium.

Ha-Naga: Might not fit 2, debatable. Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.

Those problems are also purely grey wolf's opinions. Ha-naga are listed as speaking no languages (but are subject to the same Bonus INT languages as all monsters, including those that DO list language), and as discussed before the undead thing requires taking sarcastic redcloak seriously. Regardless, yes, neither is an FBS requirement.

Ok, I'm probably going to regret this again, but where is the reference to the Ha-Naga having yellow eyes? Neither the Epic Handbook nor the SRD mention it, and the eyes in the artwork are just regular, non-yellow, non-glowing eyes.

The eyes of a naga are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic inner light.

A naga has a long, snakelike body covered with glistening scales and a more or less human face. A typical specimen ranges in length from 10 to 20 feet and weighs between 200 and 500 pounds, but nagas 100 feet or more in length (such as the largest ha-nagas) are also known. The eyes of a naga are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic light.

All nagas have long, snakelike bodies covered with glistening scales and more or less human faces. A bright naga is 15feet long and weighs about 500 pounds. Its eyes are bright and intelligent, burning with an almost hypnotic inner light.

Yellow eyes

Essentially, the Ha-naga missing the glowing eyes bit in the SRD and epic handbook is an odd omission, much like their lack of a language entry, as the mention of the burning hypnotic eyes is mentioned in the general description of naga in each other source.

[lio45]

You can't really use "violates Occam's Razor" as an argument in a story where it's already been established that Probability is always going to bend over for the pleasure of The Plot like a cheap whore.

:P

Both Sleeplax and Protean "benefit" from this argument when it comes to the Escape - to paraphrase Ruck from his essay (without going back to look at his exact words), what's important here isn't that it's probable, merely that it's possible.

[Keltest]

I think any attempt to bypass community consensus in a community run thread is going to be received very poorly.

[lio45]

I think any attempt to bypass community consensus in a community run thread is going to be received very poorly.

More or less. If you feel "community consensus" is wrong, you can try to work on that, and maybe someday, succeed.

For example, I've firmly disagreed with FBS Condition #6 ("fits in the box") for years now. This vote looks like it's finally going to work, but it wasn't easy. This type of change pretty much always has to begin with "some people dare to question current community consensus".

[3Power]

You can't really use "violates Occam's Razor" as an argument in a story where it's already been established that Probability is always going to bend over for the pleasure of The Plot like a cheap whore.

Watch me.

I think any attempt to bypass community consensus in a community run thread is going to be received very poorly.

The community has the FBS.

[Keltest]

The community has the FBS.

By all mean, feel free to keep and rate your own personal opinion in whatever format you wish. I wouldnt hold my breath for being incorporated into the opening posts given that, at the end of the day, it is an opinion piece and speaks only for you.

Also, i notice that you apply one blanket rule as a plus for the Ha-naga, but insist that we ignore another one that would be a minus. The idea of your objectivity is not being well built here.

[LadyEowyn]

I'm missing something. Wouldn't any change to FBS criteria require us to reevaluate the candidates? I'm not seeing how option A is more strenuous than... well, any other option except I or Z.

Yeah, I’m confused by this too. Option A is “remove the size requirement from FBS”. That’s all. There’s no notable work associated with it. It’s a one-line edit. So it’s hard to understand why it, and no other options, is marked with the asterisk.

GreyWolf, you don’t need to look up every possibility; it’s just that when they are proposed, size will no longer count as a negative.

[3Power]

By all mean, feel free to keep and rate your own personal opinion in whatever format you wish. I wouldnt hold my breath for being incorporated into the opening posts given that, at the end of the day, it is an opinion piece and speaks only for you.

At no point in the creation of this list was there an expectation that it would be in the OP.
That doesn't change the fact that Ruck's opinion piece is linked there though.

Also, i notice that you apply one blanket rule as a plus for the Ha-naga, but insist that we ignore another one that would be a minus. The idea of your objectivity is not being well built here.

It's a fact that the ha-naga is not listed as speaking any languages, thus making it ripe for lampshading by the BGHs. The idea that all naga have glowing eyes is a point in the ha-naga's favor, but it's not as if the creature that is the MiTD has to have glowing eyes, it just fits well.

[Keltest]

At no point in the creation of this list was there an expectation that it would be in the OP.
That doesn't change the fact that Ruck's opinion piece is linked there though.


It's a fact that the ha-naga is not listed as speaking any languages, thus making it ripe for lampshading by the BGHs. The idea that all naga have glowing eyes is a point in the ha-naga's favor, but it's not as if the creature that is the MiTD has to have glowing eyes, it just fits well.

The Ha-naga is intelligent enough to speak multiple languages. It would not be at all surprising that it speaks, though doing so in common would be convenient enough to possibly be worth lampshading.

[Jasdoif]

Yellow eyes

Since we're bringing up A Monster For Every Season; I would be remiss not to mention that while the water/guardian/dark/primordial naga do indeed have yellow eyes, the spirit naga has red eyes. (The bone naga has empty eye sockets with red lights, but I don't think that counts)

[catagent101]

Reviewing this list (I'll assume it's complete and there are no other Gargantuan+ proposed creatures in 3e), and assessing each one based on the 6 FBS requirements (assuming A passes the vote) to find new FBS candidates among them:

Spoiler:

Show

• Akvan Div Prince: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 3 or 5, debatable.
• Astral Dragon: Doesn't fit 2 or 3.
• Astral Dreadnaught: Doesn't fit 1.
• Brainstealer Dragon: Doesn't fit 5.
• Brood Keeper: Doesn't fit 1, 2 or 3.
• Corpse Tearer Linnorm: Potential FBS candidate. Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement. (Perhaps it should be added?)
• Dragon: Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
• Draknor: Doesn't fit 1 or 7.
• Draeden: Doesn't fit 7. Far larger than the typical Colossal, potentially disqualifying exception even if 6 is removed. Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement.
• Dread Linnorm: Doesn't fit 7.
• Epic Dragon: Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
• Fiendwurm: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 1, debatable.
• Ghour: Potential FBS candidate. Problems with alignment and CR, but those aren't FBS requirements.
• Giant Snowman: Doesn't fit 1.
• Grootslang: Doesn't fit 1 or 5.
• Gug: Doesn't fit 2.
• Ha-Naga: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 2, debatable (as proven by how much it's been debated; consensus seems against it, though). Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.
• King-Kong descendant: Doesn't fit 1.
• Lethus Dragon: Doesn't fit 5.
• Li Lung (Earth Dragon): Doesn't fit 3. Might be disqualified for strength even if 6 is removed, as stats for younger ones are listed directly and separately.
• Neothelid: Potential FBS candidate. Might not fit 2, debatable. No eyes, but that's not an FBS requirement.
• Nessie the Loch Ness Monster: Doesn't fit 1.
• Shadow Dragon: Doesn't fit 1.
• Titan, Elder: Doesn't fit 3. Language problems, but that's not an FBS requirement.
• Ulgurstasta Sorcerer: Doesn't fit 2 or 4.

Trimming down to exclusively potential FBS candidates among them:

• Akvan Div Prince: Might not fit 3 or 5, debatable.
• Corpse Tearer Linnorm: Can raise undead, but that's not an FBS requirement.
• Fiendwurm: Might not fit 1, debatable.
• Ghour: Problems with alignment and CR, but those aren't FBS requirements.
• Ha-Naga: Might not fit 2, debatable. Problems with languages and raising undead, but those aren't FBS requirements.
• Neothelid: Might not fit 2, debatable. No eyes, but that's not an FBS requirement.

That makes 6 plausible additions when ignoring size, which may need discussion. 2 appear to fit the FBS requirements well (even if not necessarily the MitD; they have non-FBS cons), and the other 4 are debatable on whether they actually fit the requirements or not.

Thank you!

Okay, so I did some research on each of these:

• Akvan Div Prince: Published in the Pathfinder Bestiay 3 in January 2011 2012, and not a Tome of Horrors import according to the license text. Came faaaar too late.
• Corpse-Tearer Linnorm: Has DR/magic, which would be easily bypassed by Belkar's weapons. AC is less than the a nightcrawler, which the Order fought successfully (although it was a smaller version). Point is it isn't particularly impressive defensively from what I can tell.
• Fiendwurm: no explanation for the escape, O'Chul & Vaarsuvius did not arrive in the Abyss.
• Ghour: 28 Strength, insufficient for the tower scene and no alternative explanation.
• Ha-Naga: Insufficient Strength for the tower scene; telekinesis explanation is not sufficient to even throw a pony (let alone a horse that has been eating a lot of Heavenly Oats™ feed).
• Neothelid: Former FBS member; perhaps the most plausible candidate. Seems like it generally fits the FBS criteria. DR 5/- may not be sufficient (Miko is dealing at least 1d10+1 damage with her katanas, maybe more if she has a higher Strength than 13 or magic weapons, but she could have rolled badly).

Seems like the neothelid may be the only new entry. This does not include all the countless dragons though, that might change things up.

[Keltest]

The dragons generally fail the circus scene do they not? By virtue of being entirely too iconic, generally.