MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[Emanick]

Yes.

My intent was black but I'm not as versed on the differences between them as I used to be. (Haven't played 3.5 in a long time.)

Personally, I think the white slaad is a lot more likely than the black slaad for two reasons:

1) As Hamishspence points out, the white slaad's eyes match the MitD's eyes quite well, which is a big deal to me since that's practically the only physical characteristic of the MitD we've consistently seen. (I have to thank Hamishspence for emphasizing this, as that's specifically what got me over the line as being willing to buy it as a reasonable-enough guess.)
ii.) The MitD describes his father as being a lot bigger than him. Black slaadi are a size category bigger than white slaadi, which means that the MitD's dad could easily be a black slaad while he is a white slaad. Now, he could just be remembering a time when he was younger and smaller (if white slaadi even grow as they age, which I don't remember being a thing), but I think it makes more sense to take his statement about his father about being a serious clue, rather than a red herring like that.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

ii.) The MitD describes his father as being a lot bigger than him. Black slaadi are a size category bigger than white slaadi, which means that the MitD's dad could easily be a black slaad while he is a white slaad. Now, he could just be remembering a time when he was younger and smaller (if white slaadi even grow as they age, which I don't remember being a thing), but I think it makes more sense to take his statement about his father about being a serious clue, rather than a red herring like that.

Black slaadi don't birth white slaadi. White slaadi are an evolution of the death slaadi, themselves evolved from grey, who evolved from green, who are born when a blue or red slaad reproduce by means of a powerful spellcaster. The idea that MitD continued to be child-like after all that is hard to explain. That he'd remember his father as a black slaad - meaning his red/blue parent had stuck around through all those evolutions (most of which require the slaad to go into long period of isolation) is even harder to believe.

Slaadi reproduction cycle has always been a major issue for the white/black slaad suggestion, even more so now that it has been shown in-comic to not have been altered.

Grey Wolf

[Carl]

So uh, no comment on my suggestion anyone?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So uh, no comment on my suggestion anyone?

Neh-Thalggu has been suggested before, and the core issue that you highlighted - the fact it has strength 0 when doing anything other than biting, which MitD definitely din't do in the tower - is already listed there. I really don't have anything to add beyond that.

GW

[Carl]

I could have swore i looked through and couldn't find it. DoH, (actually i just expanded all the spoiler tabs and used chrome's search function but ok).

[hamishspence]

Black slaadi don't birth white slaadi. White slaadi are an evolution of the death slaadi, themselves evolved from grey, who evolved from green, who are born when a blue or red slaad reproduce by means of a powerful spellcaster. The idea that MitD continued to be child-like after all that is hard to explain. That he'd remember his father as a black slaad - meaning his red/blue parent had stuck around through all those evolutions (most of which require the slaad to go into long period of isolation) is even harder to believe.

Slaadi reproduction cycle has always been a major issue for the white/black slaad suggestion, even more so now that it has been shown in-comic to not have been altered.

There is the Slaad Brooder PrC from Savage Species. It states that any slaad can take the PRC - but doesn't state what happens if the brooder is neither a red slaad nor a blue slaad.

Room for "Father is a black slaad with the Slaad Brooder PrC - home-brew rule - black slaadi that can implant pellets, can produce white slaadi."

It's worth pointing out that the description here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html

"He implanted the nurse 14 minutes after he was born"

isn't exactly how 3.5 handles it. A standard 3.5 red slaad would produce a blue slaad offspring - who infects people instead of implanting them. The slaad father would need to be a Slaad Brooder, and using the "choose the colour of the offspring" option granted at 7th level, to have red slaad tadpoles instead of blue slaad tadpoles.

[Quebbster]

There is the Slaad Brooder PrC from Savage Species. It states that any slaad can take the PRC - but doesn't state what happens if the brooder is neither a red slaad nor a blue slaad.

Room for "Father is a black slaad with the Slaad Brooder PrC - home-brew rule - black slaadi that can implant pellets, can produce white slaadi."

It's worth pointing out that the description here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html

"He implanted the nurse 14 minutes after he was born"

isn't exactly how 3.5 handles it. A standard 3.5 red slaad would produce a blue slaad offspring - who infects people instead of implanting them. The slaad father would need to be a Slaad Brooder, and using the "choose the colour of the offspring" option granted at 7th level, to have red slaad tadpoles instead of blue slaad tadpoles.

Are you sure the red slaad in the comic is the father of the tadpole? Couldn't it be the nurse mentioned, or an obstetrician/midwife?

[Psyren]

Personally, I think the white slaad is a lot more likely than the black slaad for two reasons:

1) As Hamishspence points out, the white slaad's eyes match the MitD's eyes quite well, which is a big deal to me since that's practically the only physical characteristic of the MitD we've consistently seen. (I have to thank Hamishspence for emphasizing this, as that's specifically what got me over the line as being willing to buy it as a reasonable-enough guess.)
ii.) The MitD describes his father as being a lot bigger than him. Black slaadi are a size category bigger than white slaadi, which means that the MitD's dad could easily be a black slaad while he is a white slaad. Now, he could just be remembering a time when he was younger and smaller (if white slaadi even grow as they age, which I don't remember being a thing), but I think it makes more sense to take his statement about his father about being a serious clue, rather than a red herring like that.

Got it!

Yeah I dug up my ELH, and rereading both their entries I think they both fit. I hear what you're saying on the eyes but I think I'll stick with black for now.

[Carl]

Neh-Thalggu has been suggested before, and the core issue that you highlighted - the fact it has strength 0 when doing anything other than biting, which MitD definitely din't do in the tower - is already listed there. I really don't have anything to add beyond that.

GW

Just had a thought, in the tower scene we never actually see the MitD physically hit or her mount, we just see the aftermath. Presuming the effect was hidden within his darkness there's no reason a Neh-Thalggu couldn't in theory have been using crushing hand, (it even counts as strength 35) with Miko none the wiser. I'm not sure i buy this myself tbh, but it's not an inconsistent explanation.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just had a thought, in the tower scene we never actually see the MitD physically hit or her mount, we just see the aftermath. Presuming the effect was hidden within his darkness there's no reason a Neh-Thalggu couldn't in theory have been using crushing hand, (it even counts as strength 35). I'm not sure i buy this myself tbh, but it's not an inconsistent explanation.

MitD specifies that it is a game of hitting lightly. There is no reason that he would not then proceed to try to do exactly that. Spellcasting is not hitting.

GW

[Carl]

MitD specifies that it is a game of hitting lightly. There is no reason that he would not then proceed to try to do exactly that. Spellcasting is not hitting.

GW

Given he didn't know he cast a spell to make O-Chulu and V escape i'm not convinced thats a good argument. As long as he thinks he's using his physical self, weather he actually is or not is besides the point. It would kind of require that all of his physical interactions to be done through unrealised casting of various telekinetic spells, (anything done with his mouth aside), but it's possibble. Again not saying i believe it mind, (it does feel a bit off but i'm working through random logic chains to see what sticks ok).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given he didn't know he cast a spell to make O-Chulu and V escape i'm not convinced thats a good argument. As long as he thinks he's using his physical self, weather he actually is or not is besides the point. It would kind of require that all of his physical interactions to be done through unrealised casting of various telekinetic spells, (anything done with his mouth aside), but it's possibble. Again not saying i believe it mind, (it does feel a bit off but i'm working through random logic chains to see what sticks ok).

MitD didn't know if it was him that made O-Chul disappear. MitD was very clear at the tower that he had lost twice. He knew exactly what he was proposing to do, he did it, he was disappointed with the result. Nothing in that scenario suggests MitD somehow managed to cast a ninth level spell without intending to, or even as much as a cantrip.

GW

[Crusher]

So uh, no comment on my suggestion anyone?

Oh, yeah, sorry! I kept meaning to respond to your post but I was distracted by a succession of shiny objects, most recently a cherry pie (the glazing on the crust made it shiny). The Neh-Thalggu is a very strong candidate. In fact, I had it at 3rd on my personal top 3 list for the MitD from June 2016 to January of 2017 (behind the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Glabrezu). But, as GW_c has pointed out, its got enough flaws that it never made the FBS list and I eventually replaced it at 3rd with "Slaad".

I also want to say that its great you proposed it. It *is* a good candidate and it was worth taking a swing at. And while we've been puzzling on this for a long time, sometimes genuinely new things do pop up. It wasn't that long ago that someone came up with the Xenocryst, which turned out to be completely new and an extremely strong candidate.

Relatedly, feel free to poke through the first few posts in this thread, they have a wealth of information on MitD clues and a long list of both candidates that have been proposed as well as the FBS ("Fits Big Scenes") list. I'm tracking everyone's predictions on what species the MitD turns out to be, and I don't think you've made one so you could do that if you like.

Speaking of which, I'd forgotten I'd knocked ANB off my list. I need to find a way to add it back in.

[Peelee]

Apropos of nothing, but it seems like this should be added to the OP on the author's comments about the monster.

Are you withholding MITD's species just for shock value, or also to beat Brian Cleffinger's longest set-up for a webcomic at about nine years for

Spoiler: 8-Bit Theater

Show

the defeat of chaos by four white mages?

Neither. The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.

[Carl]

MitD didn't know if it was him that made O-Chul disappear. MitD was very clear at the tower that he had lost twice. He knew exactly what he was proposing to do, he did it, he was disappointed with the result. Nothing in that scenario suggests MitD somehow managed to cast a ninth level spell without intending to, or even as much as a cantrip.

GW

I think you misunderstood what i was getting at.

Lets assume for a second he is a brain collector. That means we need an explanation for any physical interactions not including his mouth. The tower scene is just one, he routinely carries the umbrella around without a visible hand and has manipulated the stew bucket with the same provision, plus the paintbrush and i'm sure there are others.

We also know from the tower scene that he's capable of either casting or emulating high level teleportation magic, all without knowing what he's doing. If we assume he's a brain collector it's casting. And when he casts he doesn't know he's casting it seems. So there's no reason he couldn't be unknowingly casting to do things that he then thinks he's doing with his physical body.

Remember he's at least suspicious he may have been responsible for the escape, he just doesn't understand how he could be. On the other hand he clearly believes he has a physical body that can do stuff, therefore if he unknowingly casts a spell to say pick up the bucket or "tap" Miko he's going to attribute the effects thereof to his physical body even if they're not.

Like i sid i don't completly buy this theroy myself, but if i can construct a chain of logic i'm going to play devils advocate for it. My lack of belief is a gut feeling, not based on any evdiance i can come up with.

Oh, yeah, sorry! I kept meaning to respond to your post but I was distracted by a succession of shiny objects, most recently a cherry pie (the glazing on the crust made it shiny). The Neh-Thalggu is a very strong candidate. In fact, I had it at 3rd on my personal top 3 list for the MitD from June 2016 to January of 2017 (behind the Athasian Nightmare Beast and the Glabrezu). But, as GW_c has pointed out, its got enough flaws that it never made the FBS list and I eventually replaced it at 3rd with "Slaad".

I also want to say that its great you proposed it. It *is* a good candidate and it was worth taking a swing at. And while we've been puzzling on this for a long time, sometimes genuinely new things do pop up. It wasn't that long ago that someone came up with the Xenocryst, which turned out to be completely new and an extremely strong candidate.

Relatedly, feel free to poke through the first few posts in this thread, they have a wealth of information on MitD clues and a long list of both candidates that have been proposed as well as the FBS ("Fits Big Scenes") list. I'm tracking everyone's predictions on what species the MitD turns out to be, and I don't think you've made one so you could do that if you like.

Speaking of which, I'd forgotten I'd knocked ANB off my list. I need to find a way to add it back in.

To be fair i'm not completely convinced he's a brain collector. The idea of him devouring an unusual brain that has unusual effects on a usual creature that could reasonably be inferred from information in the comic was sort of an example i came up with for somthing else i was writing a big piece on that kept getting eaten by browser crashes. Will have another go now. Had a while to let the frustration subside.

At it's core it comes down to the idea that i don't think it's completely fair to dismiss the idea of the MitD being an unusual creature, (has templates, added on stuff, or wierd not covered by rules but makes sense stuff), out of hand provided there's adequate bits and pieces that hang together in the comic i think it's largely reasonable. What brought this to the fore for me was Serreni. Honestly we weren't given enough time or hints beforehand to reasonably work her deal out, (and we'd likely have needed more incentive), but it's somthing i think we could have worked out from available information. And at the same time whilst being a reasonable thing to workout it's not somthing there's explicit rules for, but it's intuitive enough that with the right clues we could have worked it out.

Another seperate example to the Brain Collector example that just occurred to me is an extension of our introduction to Xykon in Start of Darkness. It's treated as normal for sorcerers to develop powers without necessarily directly taking class levels in it, (it's addressed as if sorcerers can develop powers without understanding what they are or where they come from. Thus implying they can pick up class levels in it without actually being aware of doing so). By that theory the MitD could be getting free levels in some spell-casting class, (probably though not guaranteed to be divine given some conversational stuff around him). I don't think he could get enough levels that way to really explain the escape, (unless there's some narrative rule in play giving him free levels, like for example with Haley's rivals that gives them free class levels, but i can't think of a plausible explanation honestly), but it's another example of the kind of sideways thinking i'm talking about.

Obviously a really good proposal of such a kind needs a really good in comic justification for it. But i think Serreni suggests we've been dismissing it a bit too freely until now.

Apropos of nothing, but it seems like this should be added to the OP on the author's comments about the monster.

I'd agree, also can't remember, but is O-Chulu's comment about the MitD not believing what he is in there? It was actually thinking about something of this kind, (hadn't seen the WoG but had been feeling like the route being spelled out atm is still a bit too simple), that lead me to think about Serreni and the implications for what should be considered guessable that raises.

Smei-off-topic speculation time. Personally i suspect he's going to have a role in sealing the rifts, i'm just not sure how exactly. I don't think he's a deity, (physically), but i could see him being a prison or otherwise being inhabited by some kind of divine being, or having a connection to one. Would have to be one that isn't part of the existing pantheons and who could have arisen independently. But I've been drawing a blank there, unless of course some piece of power of one or more of the eastern gods actually survived but has taken this long to coalesce into a new being, but i don't have much to explain that either other than there where a whole bunch of defenders of various gates who knew they once existed and could have acted as a weak locus of belief to give remnant of power somthing to latch onto and coalesce around. But that would still need a "how did it end up in the MitD" explanation and i don't have that. I mean if it manifested on the physical or (possibly), astral planes he could have eaten it if it was the right type of divine being, but then where right back to what is he and how could such a being stumble into such a divine thingy.

Yeah lot of avenues to explore with the basic Serreni inspired thought honestly. Was why i raised it.

[Squire Doodad]

Smei-off-topic speculation time. Personally i suspect he's going to have a role in sealing the rifts, i'm just not sure how exactly. I don't think he's a deity, (physically), but i could see him being a prison or otherwise being inhabited by some kind of divine being, or having a connection to one. Would have to be one that isn't part of the existing pantheons and who could have arisen independently. But I've been drawing a blank there, unless of course some piece of power of one or more of the eastern gods actually survived but has taken this long to coalesce into a new being, but i don't have much to explain that either other than there where a whole bunch of defenders of various gates who knew they once existed and could have acted as a weak locus of belief to give remnant of power somthing to latch onto and coalesce around. But that would still need a "how did it end up in the MitD" explanation and i don't have that. I mean if it manifested on the physical or (possibly), astral planes he could have eaten it if it was the right type of divine being, but then where right back to what is he and how could such a being stumble into such a divine thingy.

Yeah lot of avenues to explore with the basic Serreni inspired thought honestly. Was why i raised it.

I suspect a role in stopping Xykon is more likely than a role in sealing the rifts, though he is out of left field enough to be a backup plan for a "Redcloak is dead, who's next-in-line" scenario. Regardless, it would be a bit cheap...
Then again...
Is there any sort of entity that acts as that sort of focus for divine energy? Or maybe a life form created to attack or seal divine magic (the Snarl is technically divine, after all), like something in the vein of a sub-Epic Pandorym?

Oh, yeah, sorry! I kept meaning to respond to your post but I was distracted by a succession of shiny objects, most recently a cherry pie (the glazing on the crust made it shiny).

Can I get two of those?

[Crusher]

Can I get two of those?

Of course! Pies or other shiny objects?

[ReaderAt2046]

Of course! Pies or other shiny objects?

Mmmm, pie...

[Peelee]

Of course! Pies or other shiny objects?

That's not two, that's the same one twice!

[Crusher]

That's not two, that's the same one twice!

My baking skills are super-humanly consistent.

[Peelee]

My baking skills are super-humanly consistent.

I CAN SEE THE FILE NAMES.

Stupid lameness filter. There, lowercase letters, are you happy, computer?

[Darth Paul]

I CAN SEE THE FILE NAMES.

Stupid lameness filter. There, lowercase letters, are you happy, computer?

Would that be the filter that blocks "all-cap shouting" entries, even if they're pertinent?

[Crusher]

I CAN SEE THE FILE NAMES.

Stupid lameness filter. There, lowercase letters, are you happy, computer?

Which is part of the baking process, obviously. How do you not know this as a mod? Wow.

I mean, seriously, I’ve been on these forums forever and you KNOW how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be. So what you going to believe? What I’m confidently telling you or your unreliable lying eyes?

[Peelee]

Which is part of the baking process, obviously. How do you not know this as a mod? Wow.

I mean, seriously, I’ve been on these forums forever and you KNOW how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be. So what you going to believe? What I’m confidently telling you or your unreliable lying eyes?

That's fair. You're sweet, and simple. Like a lady baker. I- would not be surprised to find out that you had worked in a bakery before coming here. You has that kind of warmth.

.... I’m pretty sure you've baked on a professional level.

[Crusher]

That's fair. You're sweet, and simple. Like a lady baker. I- would not be surprised to find out that you had worked in a bakery before coming here. You has that kind of warmth.

.... I’m pretty sure you've baked on a professional level.

I am very toasty, it’s true.

Fun fact: my first apartment after school was immediately upstairs from a large bakery. At first it was really cool waking up to the smell of baking break, but after a few months it started getting really tiresome. Too much of a good thing.

[Carl]

I suspect a role in stopping Xykon is more likely than a role in sealing the rifts, though he is out of left field enough to be a backup plan for a "Redcloak is dead, who's next-in-line" scenario. Regardless, it would be a bit cheap...
Then again...
Is there any sort of entity that acts as that sort of focus for divine energy? Or maybe a life form created to attack or seal divine magic (the Snarl is technically divine, after all), like something in the vein of a sub-Epic Pandorym?



Can I get two of those?

Ehh the MitD has been consistently shown to do weird stuff, i'd be willing to buy there's an explanation that makes it all make sense. Remember, in fiction the best reveals are the ones that you had all the clues to figure out, but never saw coming until they happened. Whatever the MitD is i'm expecting that at this point and that gives the Giant a lot of room to jump any damm which way he wants.


A couple of things not touched on in the OP of this thread or maybe not adequately explored have occurred to me.

Whilst the idea it's possibble the MitD was responsible for the rain when O-Chul was a prisoner, there's a later strip where he expresses hope after the escape that the rain is helping him sleep, and we cut to him and lien being hit with the exact same kind of rain. I don't think if we assume the first case was the MitD that we can rule out the second being so. Though we still only have a strong suspicion for the first instance.

Another factor, when he's talking about all the things he loves about the rainforest, i hadn't considered it before, (only recently read SoD and still digesting it), but he's naming things that make it better in his mind than wherever he was previously. That narrows things down a lot as there's not a lot of places that don't have sun, blue skies, or fresh air at least some of the time.

Also regarding his durability. After Girriad's gate went krackaboom his umbrella was all crinkled up whilst Xykon and Redcloak had clearly taken massive amounts of damage. Conversely the one other time we've seen them all get beat on, (coming out of the dungeons at kragor's tomb), he came out seemingly untouched. The gate explosion was also the one time we've seen him take any sign of damage i think. For reference assuming average rolls Xykon should be at least 130hp so i'd say the gate hit him (with his not inconsiderable DR), for at least 120 damage. I suspect this indicates fast healing as well as good DR as that would explain his minimal if any hurt leaving the tomb.

[Crusher]

I am very toasty, it’s true.

Fun fact: my first apartment after school was immediately upstairs from a large bakery. At first it was really cool waking up to the smell of baking break, but after a few months it started getting really tiresome. Too much of a good thing.

Oh, dammit. I realized it later.

I'm retconning my response to:

Do you want an M&M? I keep them here at my desk so that everyone doesn't take them.

[Shining Wrath]

I still think there's at least one good argument against the Protean; that Xykon expected start-of-story Order of the Stick to instantly recognize MitD as being tremendously powerful. Despite the fact that MitD is size Medium or Large. Since the Protean can look like anything (or a combination of several things), when it steps out of the shadows, it could look like a Chimera, or a mix of a centaur and a worg, or whatever. I think it's implied that mid-level adventurers will see MitD and be very frightened because they recognize what it is - a dragon, a devil, a mini-tarrasque, something like that.

[Carl]

I still think there's at least one good argument against the Protean; that Xykon expected start-of-story Order of the Stick to instantly recognize MitD as being tremendously powerful. Despite the fact that MitD is size Medium or Large. Since the Protean can look like anything (or a combination of several things), when it steps out of the shadows, it could look like a Chimera, or a mix of a centaur and a worg, or whatever. I think it's implied that mid-level adventurers will see MitD and be very frightened because they recognize what it is - a dragon, a devil, a mini-tarrasque, something like that.

That doesn't really work well with the circus scene, there was at least one adventurer in the audience and he hadn't seen anything like it. And the only people where certain we know they know what he is are all pretty high level. My guess is Xykon either thinks the MitD's sheer appearance will be enough to scare them, or he could announce what he is and they'd know the name.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I still think there's at least one good argument against the Protean; that Xykon expected start-of-story Order of the Stick to instantly recognize MitD as being tremendously powerful. Despite the fact that MitD is size Medium or Large. Since the Protean can look like anything (or a combination of several things), when it steps out of the shadows, it could look like a Chimera, or a mix of a centaur and a worg, or whatever. I think it's implied that mid-level adventurers will see MitD and be very frightened because they recognize what it is - a dragon, a devil, a mini-tarrasque, something like that.

No. Just because a protean has the head of a goat or a tarrasque sticking out of its body it does not mean it is not recognizable as a protean. A protean is not a shapeshifter.

GW