MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[halfeye]

How does any of that relate to the MitD?

The MitD hit Miko for six (and her horse, which Belkar also didn't like), I'm supposing Belkar was resurrected as some sort of non-breathing thing (e.g. undead or ghost? possibly by Grubwiggler?), then (possibly after some time in the silvery place, I forget it's name) sent to the jungle in the past, and has mostly kept to his redemption path since then.

I will admit the main cause of this idea was imagining the look on Belkar's face when setting up Miko for the big hit.

[Peelee]

The MitD hit Miko for six (and her horse, which Belkar also didn't like),

Six what? You have no units.

I'm supposing Belkar was resurrected as some sort of non-breathing thing (e.g. undead or ghost? possibly by Grubwiggler?), then (possibly after some time in the silvery place, I forget it's name) sent to the jungle in the past, and has mostly kept to his redemption path since then.

Is there any evidence at all the MitD is some form of undead? Or that he doesn't breathe?

Also, it doesn't explain anything else about MitD.

[halfeye]

Six what? You have no units.

Cricket. Six runs are scored if the ball is hit and crosses the boundary before landing on the ground.

Is there any evidence at all the MitD is some form of undead? Or that he doesn't breathe?

Also, it doesn't explain anything else about MitD.

Yeah, except for the tower scene it's not very strong at all. My memory isn't that hot, it could be someone's suggested it before. On the other hand, I don't remember there's any evidence that the MitD does breathe or is alive.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On the other hand, I don't think there's any evidence that the MitD does breathe or is alive.

Requiring and desiring sustenance and sleep are indication of being alive.

GW

[Carl]

Requiring and desiring sustenance and sleep are indication of being alive.

GW

Also hasn't he been mentioned as snoring one time?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also hasn't he been mentioned as snoring one time?

No, but he definitely farts, which is another indication of life.

GW

[Ruck]

Also hasn't he been mentioned as snoring one time?

No, but he definitely farts, which is another indication of life.

GW

He appears to be snoring in #662, but there's a good chance he's faking it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He appears to be snoring in #662, but there's a good chance he's faking it.

The z onomatopoeic isn't necessarily an indiction of snoring, only of sleep, as far as I am aware.

Admittedly, making any noise during sleep requires an autonomous respiratory system, so as pertains to this conversation, that is likely enough to establish likelihood of breathing (leaving aside the question of whether he was faking it or not).

GW

[InvisibleBison]

Admittedly, making any noise during sleep requires an autonomous respiratory system, so as pertains to this conversation, that is likely enough to establish likelihood of breathing (leaving aside the question of whether he was faking it or not).

For the purposes of this conversation, I don't think it matters whether or not he was faking that noise. If he was faking it, it would only be because he normally makes that sort of noise when sleeping.

[Kornaki]

For the purposes of this conversation, I don't think it matters whether or not he was faking that noise. If he was faking it, it would only be because he normally makes that sort of noise when sleeping.

Mitd would be the one to fake sleeping sounds that they don't actually make when sleeping...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mitd would be the one to fake sleeping sounds that they don't actually make when sleeping...

Indeed; how would he even know what noises his species does when asleep?

GW

[3Power]

Requiring and desiring sustenance and sleep are indication of being alive.

Not in D&D world. Vampires are known to do both.

[hamishspence]

And Extraplanar outsiders and elementals do not need to do either, yet are still consistently described as "living creatures" for the purposes of spells, templates, etc. Living Constructs (from Eberron and Monster Manual III) have the Construct type and are considered Living Creatures.


"Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—"
"Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe"


"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—"
"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish"


"A living construct responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points"
"Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes’ feast and potions."

Not in D&D world. Vampires are known to do both.

While they drain blood (and energy) this is not, strictly speaking, eating. There's no rule limiting the amount of CON a vampire can drain, whereas if it was eating, the capacity of its stomach would be expected to limit it.

And they don't really sleep in the strictest sense, though they might "rest".

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

"Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep."

Not sure how compatible this is with the idea that, even in D&D, ghouls routinely bite bits off corpses and swallow them. This may again not be "true eating" though, if the ghoul does not have a functioning digestive system.

[Crusher]

And Extraplanar outsiders and elementals do not need to do either, yet are still consistently described as "living creatures" for the purposes of spells, templates, etc. Living Constructs (from Eberron and Monster Manual III) have the Construct type and are considered Living Creatures.


"Unlike most other living creatures, an elemental does not have a dual nature—"
"Elementals do not eat, sleep, or breathe"


"Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—"
"Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish"


"A living construct responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points"
"Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes’ feast and potions."




While they drain blood (and energy) this is not, strictly speaking, eating. There's no rule limiting the amount of CON a vampire can drain, whereas if it was eating, the capacity of its stomach would be expected to limit it.

And they don't really sleep in the strictest sense, though they might "rest".

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType

"Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep."

Not sure how compatible this is with the idea that, even in D&D, ghouls routinely bite bits off corpses and swallow them. This may again not be "true eating" though, if the ghoul does not have a functioning digestive system.

Yeah, at first I was like "This is a semantics thing" which I was still happy to think about and debate because that's why we're here. But it does occur to me that officially living things eat in a LOT of different ways, and a large percentage of undead consume or drain *something* from living creatures which the undead uses for sustenance, empowerment or reproduction. Yeah, its usually not *precisely* the eating and digestion mechanics for human beings, but its not entirely not the same process. I mean, in our world all shipworms eat wood and cornhusks and other normally *extremely* hard to digest cellulose, and one species actually eats rocks, digests it somehow and poops out sand. No one knows if it actually gets any nutritional value from the rock or not.

And on the other hand, there's a water beetle that evolved to be eaten by frogs and be totally fine. Frog digestive acid doesn't hurt them and they're perfectly fine when they're pooped out. Our world is a weird place and we don't even have Owlbears.

Edit - More directly to the topic at hand, the adult form of many moth species mate, lay eggs and die without ever eating or drinking. They eat and drink as larvae, but once they become adults they never do it again. The adult form of many moth species don't even have mouths.

Edit2 - TL;DR - Eating is really non-standard, and the blanket statement that "undead don't eat" might be kind of misleading.

[Shining Wrath]

Assume, for the moment, that is 100% accurate. How in the world would it possibly be guessable?

Point conceded. But see below.

I misread the post above and thought I needed to elaborate on the topic. But, I just spent 20 minutes writing this, so I'll post it anyways, as it's a decent refresher of an example.
Let's give an example of a situation where backstory means a flagrant oddity WOULD be guessable:
Suppose MitD meets a magic dragon with a scroll able to bestow 1-per-day castings of any ability. The dragon likes MitD, and gives him the ability to shoot heat lasers out of his eyes once per day.
Later, MitD is stuck on a small glacier with O-Chul with a horde of golems on the other side and chasing after them. Unable to run any further, MitD uses his heat laser to melt a line in the ice, cutting off the golems and saving the day.
As we have seen MitD receive the heat laser ability from the magic dragon, we know that MitD's heat laser is independent of his species. Thus, MitD can be a creature that lacks heat lasers.

Now, suppose the meeting with the magic dragon never happened.
MitD is stuck on a small glacier with O-Chul with a horde of golems on the other side and chasing after them. Unable to run any further, MitD uses his heat laser to melt a line in the ice, cutting off the golems and saving the day.
As there is no evidence that MitD has acquired this ability from an outside source. As MitD suddenly used heat lasers without any justification for it, we must assume MitD is of a species that has heat laser eyes.

It's plausible that MitD lost a given trait for the sake of the narrative. Weirder stuff happens. However, for the sake of the guessing game, we must operate under the assumption that MitD has not been subject to that, for the same reason there are not templates on the FBS.
Of course, you're always welcome to theorize or guess that MitD is a XXX subject to scenario YYY, removing his ZZZ ability.

Imo the "MitD has below-average [stat] for his species, so failed a roll he should have always won" is fair, but "MitD has amnesia and therefore lacks [fundamental trait]" is a bit iffier. Could probably make an exception for some specific "has too many spells" monsters, but YMMV and I'm not really qualified to make an assertion on that topic. Only thing I can really say is that while MitD might not remember he's able to do xyz, Redcloak has almost definitely read his MM entry, so at least RC is almsot definitely aware.

We have reason to believe MitD is not a standard member of his species. As you note, RC has read his entry in the MM, yet MitD surprises RC. Also:

• The Hunters were surprised he spoke Common
• The hunters were surprised he was in the jungle
• His father was a lot bigger than he is, so he's immature or a member of a species with significant size variation between members
• He himself doesn't know what he is, or what he can do

In short, I concede Peelee's point that making MitD non-standard makes him not guessable, and affirm that we should believe he's non-standard. So we're having fun in here, but the rules for the game we're playing are perhaps not the rules by which Rich is writing the character. I'm not going to get mad if someone insists that the Protean is the best fit of standard monsters; I just think there's a very good chance Rich is not being doctrinaire about MitD's abilities. Rule of funny and Rich's willingness to ignore rules for the sake of story both support this thesis.

[Crusher]

Point conceded. But see below.



We have reason to believe MitD is not a standard member of his species. As you note, RC has read his entry in the MM, yet MitD surprises RC. Also:

• The Hunters were surprised he spoke Common
• The hunters were surprised he was in the jungle
• His father was a lot bigger than he is, so he's immature or a member of a species with significant size variation between members
• He himself doesn't know what he is, or what he can do

In short, I concede Peelee's point that making MitD non-standard makes him not guessable, and affirm that we should believe he's non-standard. So we're having fun in here, but the rules for the game we're playing are perhaps not the rules by which Rich is writing the character. I'm not going to get mad if someone insists that the Protean is the best fit of standard monsters; I just think there's a very good chance Rich is not being doctrinaire about MitD's abilities. Rule of funny and Rich's willingness to ignore rules for the sake of story both support this thesis.

I think your conclusion is a valid point and I think its entirely likely MitD will be, in some fashion, a non-standard member of its species. However, I'd argue that means we need to be pretty rigorous about expecting some kind of in-strip explanation/evidence for that non-standardness. So one would need to both build a compelling case for MitD being that particular species AND build a compelling case for it being that particular kind of non-standard beyond that it needs that template or whatever to be a candidate.

Which is really tricky, because one has to both build a good case for MitD being a Centaur (for example) AND that its Phrenic (for example), *beyond* the fact that a Centaur can't explain the Escape scene without being Phrenic (or having a bunch of Sorcerer levels or whatever your non-standardness happens to be). I'm not saying its not possible to do, but I don't think I've ever seen it successfully done since those "candidate supporting abilities" are the ones we typically use to guess MitD is a specific race to begin with. I say this as someone whose very first proposed race for MitD was him being a Pseudonatural Barghast - servitor of the Dark One (which still makes some sense if you think about it and assume some amnesia).

[pendell]

I have to tip my hat to the Giant that we still don't know just what the MITD is after more than a decade of speculation. I only hope the eventual reveal meets the expectation he has been setting.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shining Wrath]

I think your conclusion is a valid point and I think its entirely likely MitD will be, in some fashion, a non-standard member of its species. However, I'd argue that means we need to be pretty rigorous about expecting some kind of in-strip explanation/evidence for that non-standardness. So one would need to both build a compelling case for MitD being that particular species AND build a compelling case for it being that particular kind of non-standard beyond that it needs that template or whatever to be a candidate.

Which is really tricky, because one has to both build a good case for MitD being a Centaur (for example) AND that its Phrenic (for example), *beyond* the fact that a Centaur can't explain the Escape scene without being Phrenic (or having a bunch of Sorcerer levels or whatever your non-standardness happens to be). I'm not saying its not possible to do, but I don't think I've ever seen it successfully done and I say this as someone whose very first proposed race for MitD was him being a Pseudonatural Barghast - servitor of the Dark One (which still makes some sense if you think about it and assume some amnesia).

We can list the ways we think MitD is (or might be) different than his species, and then see where that leads us. I think we might consider:

• He's immature and still growing.
• His mind has been affected in some way - he doesn't remember parts of his past.
• Somehow he learned Common, so that implies education and / or experiences unusual for his species.

I think the above have in-strip support, as opposed to, e.g., MitD having 20 levels of Favored Soul with The Dark One as a deity. Which I put forward because I don't think anyone has guessed that, and I am trying to avoid fights.

From these you could argue what abilities might be gained or lost that support "MitD is an X but due to Y can or can't do Z". It's not the same as "take any creature, add templates until you get MitD demonstrated behaviors".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have to tip my hat to the Giant that we still don't know just what the MITD is after more than a decade of speculation.

This is not accurate. We might know. We just cannot know that we know until the reveal. It's the "balloons from the sky" issue: balloons won't fall from the sky when we state MitD's species' name. So for all we can know, we figured it out in thread 1. I blame this state of affairs on Peelee, by the way, for not having abused his position to set up the balloons_from_the_sky subroutine as he could've.

We can list the ways we think MitD is (or might be) different than his species, and then see where that leads us. I think we might consider:

• He's immature and still growing.
• His mind has been affected in some way - he doesn't remember parts of his past.
• Somehow he learned Common, so that implies education and / or experiences unusual for his species.

These are already in section 2, as well as a bunch of others. I am unsure of what you are suggesting here beyond that.

From these you could argue what abilities might be gained or lost that support "MitD is an X but due to Y can or can't do Z". It's not the same as "take any creature, add templates until you get MitD demonstrated behaviors".

The problem is and has always been that there is no one single explanation that covers all these that applies to all creatures at once. Creatures that primarily communicate via telepathy would be surprising to hear talking, without needing MitD to be different from his species since he'd be employing an ability most of his species doesn't bother to (but could), versus species who are literally incapable of talking (that'd be a definite difference). That's why "how this species fits MitD" is a per-species exercise. Which can then pick and choose from the accumulated explanations to cover its deficiencies, or come with ones that apply only to itself. E.g. "sure, undead neither eat nor sleep, but vampires in particular have the whole blood thing and the coffin thing which are sufficiently close analogues" and why section 3b has had "(unless it is an exception)" built into characteristic (4) practically from the start (and all the others implicitly have as well, really).

GW

[Sir_Norbert]

This is not accurate. We might know.

No. Someone might have correctly guessed, but we don't know what the MitD is until we have definite confirmation of the guess being correct.

[Squire Doodad]

No. Someone might have correctly guessed, but we don't know what the MitD is until we have definite confirmation of the guess being correct.

I mean, this is a factual statement, but it's basically rephrasing what Grey Wolf said to be a corollary to it.

Grey Wolf is saying we may know what MitD is already because it's possible one of the guesses, particularly the FBS ones, is the correct answer, even if it won't be certain until the reveal.
Norbert is saying someone may have guessed the correct answer, but we do not know it is the correct one until the formal reveal.

Both are correct statements.
So, that's all.

[Crusher]

Wow. Just was looking at some old strips, and I think there's an excellent chance this thread will live its entire life in between appearances by MitD. That's kind of impressive!

[Doug Lampert]

This is not accurate. We might know. We just cannot know that we know until the reveal. It's the "balloons from the sky" issue: balloons won't fall from the sky when we state MitD's species' name. So for all we can know, we figured it out in thread 1. I blame this state of affairs on Peelee, by the way, for not having abused his position to set up the balloons_from_the_sky subroutine as he could've.

But Peelee DID state when balloons fell.

[Fyraltari]

I mean, this is a factual statement, but it's basically rephrasing what Grey Wolf said to be a corollary to it.

Grey Wolf is saying we may know what MitD is already because it's possible one of the guesses, particularly the FBS ones, is the correct answer, even if it won't be certain until the reveal.
Norbert is saying someone may have guessed the correct answer, but we do not know it is the correct one until the formal reveal.

Both are correct statements.
So, that's all.

So, now, we don't know if it's an unknown known or a known unknown.

[Crusher]

So, now, we don't know if it's an unknown known or a known unknown.

Hey, we know it’s not a known known or an unknown unknown! That’s 50% of the way there!

[Fyraltari]

Hey, we know it’s not a known known or an unknown unknown! That’s 50% of the way there!

And knowing is half the battle!

[Crusher]

And knowing is half the battle!

And exactly half, in this case.

[corydeburd]

From these you could argue what abilities might be gained or lost that support "MitD is an X but due to Y can or can't do Z". It's not the same as "take any creature, add templates until you get MitD demonstrated behaviors".

I think it would be interesting to have a parallel list of backstories/modifications as we do for species. e.g. backstories of memory loss/trauma, being from another (previous) world, etc. Those would be interesting to see discussed & boiled down to more concrete theories.

[Uniquity]

I did maybe a little too much binging of this thread and had thoughts I wanted to contribute and finally got an account for that purpose. All my experience with D&D is secondhand, so I have to come at this from a much more story-driven angle and leave the arguing about statblocks to y'all who've actually read them. :P

I feel like the Protean and Xenocrysth are the strongest possibilities listed. The thing about the Protean is, I read the point of the Circus scene as effectively communicating "nauseating + beautiful + otherworldly"; it leads me to expect something exceptionally surreal, and the Protean nails that far better than anything else. (I'm a monster design enthusiast, this is a big deal to me.) The Xenocrysth is somewhat disappointing by comparison, considering it's supposed to be born of a dark god's nightmares, but perhaps it's more psychedelic in color. That puts it slightly above the Protean in one regard, namely, I think Rich could actually draw it - I have a hard time imagining him picking a constantly-roiling fleshblob, then choosing to play up its bizarre appearance as a clue to what it is, knowing that he will eventually have to depict it in stick figure form.

On another hand, while I'd be a bit disappointed if it were a Glabrezu (no offense, but I don't find "demon covered in even more spikes and armor" particularly impressive, extra arms notwithstanding), I don't think "being an embodiment of an Evil alignment" is a mark against suggestions like it. It's for similar reasons to the essay on why the Monster's character arc is particularly appropriate to a Protean. One of the biggest recurring themes throughout the comic is that your alignment is a reflection of your choices and actions, not your inner nature or circumstances of birth. This hasn't included outsiders whose very concepts are alignment-based, but it doesn't seem out of the question to end up revealing that even they are no exception, even if it is a particularly "rare and special thing" - and in that case I can't think of a more dramatic or decisive example than the character whose nature has been deliberately obscured for the entire story to focus on the importance of its decisions.

And finally, I don't mean this as a serious suggestion but I find it frankly astonishing that not once in all the speculation has anyone ever identified the MitD as the Shadowchild, from Digger:

• A childlike being usually depicted as two wide eyes in darkness
• No one knows what it is, let alone itself
• Bladed weapons pass right through it
• Appears and vanishes without warning
• Shifting and insubstantial appearance
• Terrifying in basically every respect except its personality
• Constantly hungry (for shadows) and unable to do much after "stretching itself thin"
• Unusually insightful (it can "read" shadows, for lack of a better description)
• Trivially defeats dangerous enemies, but oblivious to its own power
• Matures climactically (into the "Shadowlescent")
• What it is is closely linked to determining who it will be

(It probably couldn't perform the punch or earthquake and it postdates strip #100 by a few years, but still, considering all the parallels, I'm surprised it isn't listed somewhere in 3c-e.)

[Squire Doodad]

(It probably couldn't perform the punch or earthquake and it postdates strip #100 by a few years, but still, considering all the parallels, I'm surprised it isn't listed somewhere in 3c-e.)

Yeah, this is exactly why. It matches up pretty well, but it's younger than MitD's known decision by a lot, so it's very obviously not that by default.
Still, a good find, kudos!