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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The dragons generally fail the circus scene do they not? By virtue of being entirely too iconic, generally.
    Some of them can look a lot weirder. Note this is a Pathfinder example, so this wouldn't be an MiTD candidate.
    Last edited by catagent101; 2020-07-18 at 06:18 PM. Reason: them not the
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyEowyn View Post
    Yeah, I’m confused by this too. Option A is “remove the size requirement from FBS”. That’s all. There’s no notable work associated with it. It’s a one-line edit. So it’s hard to understand why it, and no other options, is marked with the asterisk.

    GreyWolf, you don’t need to look up every possibility; it’s just that when they are proposed, size will no longer count as a negative.
    The work is in checking all the proposed creatures that weren't in 3a to figure out which of them would need to move, making the move, and probably giving them the more-detailed writeups that 3a currently has as compared to 3e.
    Quote Originally Posted by jamieth View Post
    ...though Talla does her best to sound objective and impartial, it doesn't cover stuff like "ask a 9-year-old to tank for the party."
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwertystop View Post
    The work is in checking all the proposed creatures that weren't in 3a to figure out which of them would need to move, making the move, and probably giving them the more-detailed writeups that 3a currently has as compared to 3e.
    Ah, okay. Thanks.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by catagent101 View Post
    Thank you!

    Okay, so I did some research on each of these:
    • Akvan Div Prince: Published in the Pathfinder Bestiay 3 in January 2011 2012, and not a Tome of Horrors import according to the license text. Came faaaar too late.
    • Corpse-Tearer Linnorm: Has DR/magic, which would be easily bypassed by Belkar's weapons. AC is less than the a nightcrawler, which the Order fought successfully (although it was a smaller version). Point is it isn't particularly impressive defensively from what I can tell.
    • Fiendwurm: no explanation for the escape, O'Chul & Vaarsuvius did not arrive in the Abyss.
    • Ghour: 28 Strength, insufficient for the tower scene and no alternative explanation.
    • Ha-Naga: Insufficient Strength for the tower scene; telekinesis explanation is not sufficient to even throw a pony (let alone a horse that has been eating a lot of Heavenly Oats™ feed).
    • Neothelid: Former FBS member; perhaps the most plausible candidate. Seems like it generally fits the FBS criteria. DR 5/- may not be sufficient (Miko is dealing at least 1d10+1 damage with her katanas, maybe more if she has a higher Strength than 13, but she could have rolled badly).


    Seems like the neothelid may be the only new entry. This does not include all the countless dragons though, that might change things up.
    Also nice work. I’m actually kind of impressed at how well people have jumped on the “doing the legwork” part of passing A (and to a lesser extent B and C). It’s really cool.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    That's not a burden that needs to fall on anyone in particular, though. As someone pointed out already, worst case, no extra work for anyone: we can simply eliminate FBS Condition #6, and leave it at that. From that moment on, anyone who wishes to nominate some creature and "minimally defend it", whether it's a new one or one that is already in 3e, then that creature will be judged according to the new (size-free) set of FBS conditions.

    And to answer Crusher regarding the yellow eyes: I did make sure to specify that those characteristics are all "AFAIK", because most of my Ha-Naga knowledge comes through the lens of 3Power. (I was going to refer you to him on the question of the yellow eyes, but that won't be necessary.)

    And to Sir_Norbert: yes, I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, but from what I recall, a good chunk of that discussion was "waaaaay too big, it's a no go, as per official FBS rules; next topic!"
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    And to answer Crusher regarding the yellow eyes: I did make sure to specify that those characteristics are all "AFAIK", because most of my Ha-Naga knowledge comes through the lens of 3Power. (I was going to refer you to him on the question of the yellow eyes, but that won't be necessary.)

    And to Sir_Norbert: yes, I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, but from what I recall, a good chunk of that discussion was "waaaaay too big, it's a no go, as per official FBS rules; next topic!"
    Oh, sure, that’s how I took your post. I didn’t mean that I disbelieved you, I just didn’t know where the evidence was.

    For the Ha-Naga, personally, I think it’s too big but that’s maybe... 5th on my list of problems with it. Ok, I’m out so this is off the top of my head...

    #1 - lack of STR (which is compounded by its size. I don’t like Telekinesis as an answer but I’ll explain why later)
    #2 - Doesn’t look weird enough. Snake with a woman’s head isn’t that weird or hard to identify
    #3 - Defenses aren’t great (I’m now second guessing if this is accurate)
    #4 - Could potentially cast Raise a dead
    #5 - Too big. Which, as I mentioned when asking for an FBS rule-change vote, I don’t think is a problem on its own. It’s only a problem because it compounds #1. Shrink it down to Huge and it has a STR of 11. That’s a problem.

    And beyond that, speaking only for myself, the Ha-Naga is an inelegant solution to the problem. It is only minimally better a candidate than a human with the Ha-Naga’s casting ability would be.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-18 at 06:54 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Oh, sure, that’s how I took your post. I didn’t mean that I disbelieved you, I just didn’t know where the evidence was.

    For the Ha-Naga, personally, I think it’s too big but that’s maybe... 5th on my list of problems with it. Ok, I’m out so this is off the top of my head...

    #1 - lack of STR (which is compounded by its size. I don’t like Telekinesis as an answer but I’ll explain why later)
    #2 - Doesn’t look weird enough. Snake with a woman’s head isn’t that weird or hard to identify
    #3 - Defenses aren’t great
    #4 - Could potentially cast Raise a dead
    #5 - Too big. Which, as I mentioned when asking for an FBS rule-change vote, I don’t think is a problem on its own. It’s only a problem because it compounds #1. Shrink it down to Huge and it has a STR of 11. That’s a problem.
    It is also:
    #6 not surprising it can talk, as Keltest mentioned a page or so ago,
    #7 has no limbs to carry stuff with of pull on ropes,
    #7b if we're going with the handwave "oh, it cast mage hand all the time to accomplish everyday tasks", one has to wonder what took RC so long to figure out if psionics are a thing in OotS.
    #8 the spell that "explains" the tower doesn't, as someone pointed a page ago.
    #9 a child/pre-teen would not have access to the level 8 & 9 spells needed (e.g. wish)

    But, according to lio45, all this is just "too big, next topic", it seems.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-18 at 07:46 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.
    "Rule of funny" as a justification for MITD's powers would destroy the guessing game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Not just you. Other than "because otherwise my suggestion won't explain the scene", I don't recall ever hearing a reason anywhere solid that'd explain why MitD would propose a hitting lightly game, and then proceed to use either strength-enhancing abilities or, if somehow "hitting" can really be translated to "spellcasting", and MitD, despite at that point still not being aware of his powers, tapping into it it on purpose, and selecting a ludicrously powerful level 8 or 9 spell. The sheer amount of stretching of meaning of language, and the jumping of the gun on MitD's development is well past the reasonableness horizon.
    Agreed, and while I haven't voted yet, I've been leaning towards making no changes or minimal changes (and am strongly against altering or removing the FBS) because the bolded strikes me as the primary reason people are interested in changes.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Agreed, and while I haven't voted yet, I've been leaning towards making no changes or minimal changes (and am strongly against altering or removing the FBS) because the bolded strikes me as the primary reason people are interested in changes.
    Let's be clear, though: the size vote only intersects the Tower scene because of the strength issue. Nothing in the current vote (since I removed lio45's entry on his "request") waters down the Tower scene filter to include magic.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-18 at 07:39 PM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Let's be clear, though: the size vote only intersects the Tower scene because of the strength issue. Nothing in the current vote (since I removed lio45's entry on his "request") waters down the Tower scene filter to include magic.

    Grey Wolf
    ? It's plainly the other way around: nothing in the current FBS criterion about the Tower Scene excludes magic.

    Exact wording, which doesn't exclude magic nor make physical strength mandatory:
    2) Has a plausible explanation for the Tower (both his attack and his defence)
    And my opinion on the appropriateness of the current wording of FBS Condition #2:
    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    I wouldn't change that wording, it's literally perfect as is (and unarguable, IMO - since it's so general. It would be like trying to disagree with "Any theory, to be considered, needs to be able to explain the observations.")
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Regarding TK instead of STR, other folks have laid out the various concerns with sheer power, but my issue is different. And two-fold.

    First, if MitD is using STR, the Tower scene means they’re attempting to hit lightly but even his lightest swing is gigantically hard.

    But if MitD is a Ha-Naga who uses Mage Hand daily for interacting with things, then the issue is different. This is already a spell with a very low power ceiling. But, in an attempt to hit as lightly as possible, he instead uses a completely different spell which is gigantically more powerful.

    I get that MitD has powers he doesn’t understand, but as a Ha-Naga, he DOES understand Mage Hand since he uses it daily. It’d be like if I wanted to crack an egg, and I haven’t cracked an egg before. But I understand the basic idea and I have a bowl I use daily.

    If I accidentally hit the egg too hard against the bowl and smoosh it, that’d be understandable. I don’t have much practice. But me head-butting the egg (using a completely different ability when I already have practice at the right tool for the job) would just be weird. To me, that’s how it comes across.

    Secondly, Ha-Naga’s have powerful tails, with which they’re good at hitting people. Sure, they generally don’t like melee, but MitD just proposed a “hitting” game. He knows what “hitting” means, and as a Ha-Naga he’d have a way of doing it. It’d be weird of him to then cast a high-level spell instead.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    But, according to lio45, all this is just "too big, next topic", it seems.

    Grey Wolf
    I think you might have misread Lio45’s post. They aren’t saying they think we should brush past objections and accept the Ha-Naga. They’re saying they got the perception people were saying the Ha-Naga was too big, and then dismissed its good points.

    I feel that’s an inaccurate memory of the discussion, rather than a brusque gesture.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-18 at 08:24 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher View Post
    Regarding TK instead of STR, other folks have laid out the various concerns with sheer power, but my issue is different. And two-fold.

    First, if MitD is using STR, the Tower scene means they’re attempting to hit lightly but even his lightest swing is gigantically hard.

    But if MitD is a Ha-Naga who uses Mage Hand daily for interacting with things, then the issue is different. This is already a spell with a very low power ceiling. But, in an attempt to hit as lightly as possible, he instead uses a completely different spell which is gigantically more powerful.

    I get that MitD has powers he doesn’t understand, but as a Ha-Naga, he DOES understand Mage Hand since he uses it daily. It’d be like if I wanted to crack an egg, and I haven’t cracked an egg before. But I understand the basic idea and I have a bowl I use daily.

    If I accidentally hit the egg too hard against the bowl and smoosh it, that’d be understandable. I don’t have much practice. But me head-butting the egg (using a completely different ability when I already have practice at the right tool for the job) would just be weird. To me, that’s how it comes across.

    Secondly, Ha-Naga’s have powerful tails, with which they’re good at hitting people. Sure, they generally don’t like melee, but MitD just proposed a “hitting” game. He knows what “hitting” means, and as a Ha-Naga he’d have a way of doing it. It’d be weird of him to then cast a high-level spell instead.
    I agree with everything you just wrote above; no doubt the simplest and most direct explanation for the Tower Scene is ridiculously high STR - which _is_ how some of the main front-runners explain that scene. (Among those, my favorite two, Sleeplax and Protean.)

    That said, there could conceivably be other ways of explaining what's observed in the Tower Scene.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    I agree with everything you just wrote above; no doubt the simplest and most direct explanation for the Tower Scene is ridiculously high STR - which _is_ how some of the main front-runners explain that scene. (Among those, my favorite two, Sleeplax and Protean.)

    That said, there could conceivably be other ways of explaining what's observed in the Tower Scene.
    Sure, I agree. The D&D world is full of odd things. I can envision some kind of Gambit (X-Men) like monster that imbueS things with kinetic energy by touching them or looking at them, inflicting damage or flinging them away. That’d work pretty well (for the Earthquake, too). But we don’t have anything like that, afaik.

    At the end of the day, the list is practical more than anything else. My default question when someone wants to change a rule is “What candidate would it affect?” If the answer is “None”, then why bother? I like arguing minutia as much as the next person, but to actually get things done you need a concrete example, because that’s what the discussion is about, really. The Xeno...cryth? Is entirely responsible for this vote attempt having traction when the last one didn’t.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-18 at 08:37 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Malloon View Post
    Ah, mea culpa, I got those mixed up. If I ever have time to do proper research I might change my guess and add a suggestion, then.

    ~Malloon
    Not to worry. You're hardly the first to think that because I separate templates and creatures, that somehow means they aren't "allowed". In fact, thinking back on it, it comes up often enough I've gone ahead and written it into the FAQ. So if anything, thanks for giving me the push in the right direction.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The Ha-naga is intelligent enough to speak multiple languages. It would not be at all surprising that it speaks, though doing so in common would be convenient enough to possibly be worth lampshading.
    It would be surprising for a creature to speak if your BGH manual makes no mention of it, despite every other creature that speaks mentioning it.

    It's funny how everyone overlooked that little section of the SRD for years and as soon as someone spotted it Rich and the BGHs automatically knew about it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catagent101
    Ha-Naga: Insufficient Strength for the tower scene; telekinesis explanation is not sufficient to even throw a pony (let alone a horse that has been eating a lot of Heavenly Oats™ feed).
    The part of the reveal I look the most forward to is when it's revealed just how many ridiculous one-off gags were used as dealbreakers by the people of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crusher
    #3 - Defenses aren’t great (I’m now second guessing if this is accurate)
    The DR was heavily nerfed from 15 to 5 in the change to 3.5, in what, as time has gone on, I am increasingly convinced is a careless typo, especially since the version printed in Serpent Kingdom undoes it (And fixes a few more things, such as adding eschew materials and removing quicken spell)

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Wolf
    #9 a child/pre-teen would not have access to the level 8 & 9 spells needed (e.g. wish)
    Know this for a fact, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45
    I agree with everything you just wrote above; no doubt the simplest and most direct explanation for the Tower Scene is ridiculously high STR - which _is_ how some of the main front-runners explain that scene. (Among those, my favorite two, Sleeplax and Protean.)
    That said, there could conceivably be other ways of explaining what's observed in the Tower Scene.
    You know, like how we're pretending the escape could be teleport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Wolf
    Words
    I saw the deleted post, in case you think no one saw what you said.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    The part of the reveal I look the most forward to is when it's revealed just how many ridiculous one-off gags were used as dealbreakers by the people of this thread.
    Well... there was also the bit about MiTD being incapable of handling Xykon's phylactery without breaking it. Or at the very least Power Ranger toys. In other words the Giant has made a joke about MiTD's strength at least twice (potentially 3 times if you count the earthquake scene).

    Now that I think about it, the earthquake scene is kind of the reverse of the tower scene.

    Tower scene: paladin captured -> feat of strength (punch) -> MiTD feels bad -> paladin escapes
    Earthquake scene: paladin escapes -> MiTD feels bad -> feat of strength (earthquake) -> paladin captured

    Maybe I'm missing some details or am reducing it down too much (I haven't checked the scenes at the moment) but it seems interesting nonetheless.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The Ha-naga is intelligent enough to speak multiple languages. It would not be at all surprising that it speaks [...]
    It would be surprising for a creature to speak if your BGH manual makes no mention of it, despite every other creature that speaks mentioning it.

    It's funny how everyone overlooked that little section of the SRD for years and as soon as someone spotted it Rich and the BGHs automatically knew about it as well.
    Yeah, if we accept that anything sufficiently intelligent automatically speaks multiple languages, then we kinda have a problem, because "whatever MitD is" has to both be dumb enough not to speak anything yet intelligent enough to play Go, perform trenchant political analysis, etc.

    I see pretty much only one way to reconcile all the observations: MitD is a high INT creature that doesn't have "Speaks Common" as an explicit characteristic, and in this universe, high INT doesn't automatically mean "speaks Common".
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    The dragons generally fail the circus scene do they not? By virtue of being entirely too iconic, generally.
    Except for the Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon, which looks exactly like a mutant freak that you would exhibit in an old-timey circus even if they do nothing. The main problem is that it can't do the escape, but most other dragons can't either.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    Yeah, if we accept that anything sufficiently intelligent automatically speaks multiple languages, then we kinda have a problem, because "whatever MitD is" has to both be dumb enough not to speak anything yet intelligent enough to play Go, perform trenchant political analysis, etc.

    I see pretty much only one way to reconcile all the observations: MitD is a high INT creature that doesn't have "Speaks Common" as an explicit characteristic, and in this universe, high INT doesn't automatically mean "speaks Common".
    It being able to speak in common, specifically, was an afterthought. The primary surprise was that it speaks at all. Given that the MITD is obviously capable of speech, that rules out anatomical constraints against speech, so were left with "it normally chooses not to speak (to humans?) for whatever reason" as the most likely explanation.

    ETA: and before anybody says it, the Ha-naga has a human face and enough intelligence to speak. There is no reason to be surprised that it speaks unless the SBGHs are woefully uninformed and cannot be taken as authority in the first place (which there is no evidence for).
    Last edited by Keltest; 2020-07-18 at 09:58 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    C>B>Z

    30 for huge is almost certainly too low. But I think 38 for huge may be a bit too high, and better too loose a standard than too tight.
    Amend my vote to C>I>B>Z. The xeno whatever is an undersized gargantuan, it fits better than it's combination of size and strength would normally imply.

    If adding !Anything else to the end of my vote would make a difference, do so, but I tend to think Z covers that.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Amend my vote to C>I>B>Z. The xeno whatever is an undersized gargantuan, it fits better than it's combination of size and strength would normally imply.

    If adding !Anything else to the end of my vote would make a difference, do so, but I tend to think Z covers that.
    Indeed it does. Your vote has been updated.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    H and I. And I want to register Xenocryst as my guess.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by 3Power View Post
    You know, like how we're pretending the escape could be teleport.
    Teleport on its own is a terrible answer for the Escape Scene. It requires a fantastically improbably lucky roll by MitD. That would make it a deal-breaker (instead of merely bad) if comparably improbable things hadn’t happened sufficiently often already for V and Elan to have joked about it... twice, I want to say?

    However, if combined with some form of mind reading, telepathy (Unlikely since no one ever talks about talking to MitD telepathically) or trace teleport for MitD to find out where V came from, it actually becomes fine. While the fight was going on MitD could have been reading Vs mind or just chatting with them, finding out where a safe place was. Then MitD could simply teleport them there.

    Wish is a better answer, but Teleport covers the minimum, especially with mind-reading.
    Last edited by Crusher; 2020-07-19 at 01:12 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #145
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    What do you people make of the scene in 709:

    MitD talking about a cutting board instead of drawing board, and a demon roach questioning whether he had been drawn in the first place.


    Seems like a weird joke to me, or I don't get the reference?
    Or some hint? But at what does it point?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    The creature has never actually been drawn, or this thread would not exist as everyone would know what he looks like.

    I'm pretty confident you won't find a hint to the creature's identity in a fourth-wall-breaking joke about the comic's art.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    1. What about the cutting board then? What does it mean?
    2. Why does the roach put it as a question then?
    Boytoy of the -Fan-Club
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    Want to see my prison tatoo?

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  28. - Top - End - #148
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Mother Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Mightymosy View Post
    1. What about the cutting board then? What does it mean?
    2. Why does the roach put it as a question then?
    The simplest explanation is that MitD meant to say "drawing board" and bungled the phrase. And the demon roaches were just making a snide remark.

    I don't think there's anything to be gleaned from this scene except that the Giant has a self-deprecating sense of humor.
    Last edited by Ortho; 2020-07-19 at 03:00 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One


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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Yeah I googled it and found what it is, but I don't get the joke

    ETA:

    Since I have always found it weird as just a joke, I had the feeling it might be half joke and half hint.

    What I thought is that that scene might point to MitD coming from a media that is NOT about drawing (not drawn in the first place).

    Is there some artist technique that specifically requires cutting boards? Like modeling statues from gypsum or something? I have no idea about this stuff, and it might also purely be a language thing, that's why I ask if someone else made something of this scene that I didn't think of.
    Last edited by Mightymosy; 2020-07-19 at 03:26 AM.

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