MitD XV: The Other Dark One

[3Power]

Teleport on its own is a terrible answer for the Escape Scene. It requires a fantastically improbably lucky roll by MitD. That would make it a deal-breaker (instead of merely bad) if comparably improbable things hadn’t happened sufficiently often already for V and Elan to have joked about it... twice, I want to say?

However, if combined with some form of mind reading, telepathy (Unlikely since no one ever talks about talking to MitD telepathically) or trace teleport for MitD to find out where V came from, it actually becomes fine. While the fight was going on MitD could have been reading Vs mind or just chatting with them, finding out where a safe place was. Then MitD could simply teleport them there.

Wish is a better answer, but Teleport covers the minimum, especially with mind-reading.

The issue I have is with {Scrubbed} accepting ridiculously complex explanations for the escape scene while denying the possibility than say, Rich fudged the weight limit of telekenesis in order to make a joke.

It'd be nice to have some leeway for explanation believability.

[Keltest]

The issue I have is with {Scrub the post, scrub the quote} accepting ridiculously complex explanations for the escape scene while denying the possibility than say, Rich fudged the weight limit of telekenesis in order to make a joke.

It'd be nice to have some leeway for explanation believability.

We dont have any particularly simple answers for the escape scene. Even Wish kind of struggles to explain everything if you dont allow for some convenient coincidences or overly friendly interpretations.

The tower scene meanwhile is pretty straightforward. Using telekinesis or whatever for that scene requires that the monster be deliberately choosing to fail his own game, twice over: Once in choosing to use telekinesis in the first place instead of just headbutting them or whatever, and two in cranking up the power on it so high that it flings people across the landscape instead of actually lightly hitting them. A physical hit could allow that kind of mistake, a telekinetic strike could not.

[Quartz]

I find it unlikely that the MitD would suggest a "who can hit the lightest" contest and then use some sort of telekinesis ability instead of just hitting Miko. But that's just me.

But the Monster is a child. It may not be using the ability consciously.

[Keltest]

But the Monster is a child. It may not be using the ability consciously.

There arent a lot of creatures that use it as some sort of augment for an otherwise ordinary melee attack. Certainly not the Ha-naga, who would specifically have to cast a spell to get that kind of effect.

[Sir_Norbert]

And to Sir_Norbert: yes, I'm aware it's been discussed a lot, but from what I recall, a good chunk of that discussion was "waaaaay too big, it's a no go, as per official FBS rules; next topic!"

We're not robots and the FBS rules do not dictate our thoughts. If a good number of people responded "waaaaay too big, it's a no go" (and that part of your description of the discussion I agree with), then that's community consensus. Sure, it could turn out that the Monster is a Ha-Naga and we were all wrong, but it got tabled, we had the discussion, the majority of us were not convinced... with no new evidence for or against, what more is there to discuss?

[LadyEowyn]

We dont have any particularly simple answers for the escape scene. Even Wish kind of struggles to explain everything if you dont allow for some convenient coincidences or overly friendly interpretations.

How so? The Wish quality of “transport travellers” (moves the travellers to a desired destination without taking the caster with them) seems to describe the Escape pretty perfectly.

I agree that high strength in the best explanation for the Tower scene by a wide margin, but I’m not too hung up on the particular number for the STR score; Rich has been clear in his comments that precise adherence to rules and stats aren’t his priority or interest with story.

[Keltest]

How so? The Wish quality of “transport travellers” (moves the travellers to a desired destination without taking the caster with them) seems to describe the Escape pretty perfectly.

Because no matter what spell he uses to transport them, the MITD has no real idea where to send them to. Wish in particular is somewhat notorious for being unfriendly absent specific instructions. So we either have to allow that Wish was being unusuually friendly here, which is technically possible if not likely, or that he was somehow reading their minds to know exactly where to send them, which is not indicated anywhere.

[LadyEowyn]

Because no matter what spell he uses to transport them, the MITD has no real idea where to send them to. Wish in particular is somewhat notorious for being unfriendly absent specific instructions. So we either have to allow that Wish was being unusuually friendly here, which is technically possible if not likely, or that he was somehow reading their minds to know exactly where to send them, which is not indicated anywhere.

Something like “I want O-Chul to be with his friends” would explain him landing directly on top of Hinjo (rather than, say, in the exact location from which V left).

D&D is an interactive game. Wish is unfriendly if the DM wants it to be, and the DM might want it to be in order to prevent it from making things too easy and boring. But OOTS isn’t actually a multiplayer game, just a story taking place in a D&D-like setting.

[Keltest]

Something like “I want O-Chul to be with his friends” would explain him landing directly on top of Hinjo (rather than, say, in the exact location from which V left).

Most of O-chul's friends are dead. A vast majority of them, even. Like i said, it would require Wish being unusually friendly.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Most of O-chul's friends are dead. A vast majority of them, even. Like i said, it would require Wish being unusually friendly.

And the closest O-Chul friend is standing in the tower. The Wish could have just moved them a foot closer to MitD. But it gets worse, of course, because MitD did not wish for "I want O-Chul to be with his friends", he wished for "escape". If that is the wish component of the Wish spell, it was exceedingly friendly to place O-Chul on top of Hinjo instead of a foot outside Goblinopia walls. It is even more friendly that V was taken along for the ride. English D&D is not user-friendly to single-word commands, as per the 3.0 command spell description (heck, the Spanish variant of the spell has a note saying "please pretend you are doing this in English, or the spell becomes too powerful". Ever since that, I've always wondered what the german version says, when you can cram into one word command an entire sequence of actions)

The thing about the shouting of the wrong word is that it doesn't match a spell or spell-like ability that requires precise verbal instructions to work. Compare that to teleport, that just requires you to picture the destination in your mind, and if you picture the wrong thing, it'll take you somewhere close to that, if you are lucky. What you shout is irrelevant to that spell (I mean, if you are casting it, you do need to say the spell words but that doesn't apply to SPL, EX or SU abilities, as far as I know - definitely not to EX and SU, anyway).

Does wish fit better than teleport despite all that, IMnpHO? Sure. But wish is not a perfect match by any stretch of the imagination.

Grey Wolf

[catagent101]

The other thing about wish is that if cast as a spell it requires XP, which MiTD does not necessarily have both due to the tendencies of monsters to have a lot of hit dice (thus raising their level to be higher than their CR) and MiTD's overall high power (which could mean a high Estimated Character Level even without hit die bloat).

The escape makes me think that MiTD maybe isn't a D&D creature, because I have yet to find a friendly "teleport someone else" spell or ability besides wish, the spell that can do anything if you word what you want carefully enough. Mind, I'm no expert in D&D, there might be one out there.

[Sir_Norbert]

English D&D is not user-friendly to single-word commands, as per the command spell description (heck, the Spanish variant of the spell has a note saying "please pretend you are doing this in English, or the spell becomes too powerful". Ever since that, I've always wondered what the german version says, when you can cram into one word command an entire sequence of actions)

German nouns can be compounded to quite ridiculous extents: any time English uses a noun as a modifier on another, as in "doghouse" or "shipping company", the German equivalent is likely to be a single word. Not verbs though.

However, there are so-called "polysynthetic languages" where that kind of conglomeration of entire clauses into a single word is a real thing.

[Quartz]

"Rule of funny" as a justification for MITD's powers would destroy the guessing game.

In this case the Rule of Funny applies specificly and only to the holes left in the wall. Note there is a Miko-shaped hole and a Windstrider-shaped hole. Straight out of cartoons.

[Qwertystop]

And the closest O-Chul friend is standing in the tower. The Wish could have just moved them a foot closer to MitD. But it gets worse, of course, because MitD did not wish for "I want O-Chul to be with his friends", he wished for "escape". If that is the wish component of the Wish spell, it was exceedingly friendly to place O-Chul on top of Hinjo instead of a foot outside Goblinopia walls. It is even more friendly that V was taken along for the ride. English D&D is not user-friendly to single-word commands, as per the 3.0 command spell description (heck, the Spanish variant of the spell has a note saying "please pretend you are doing this in English, or the spell becomes too powerful". Ever since that, I've always wondered what the german version says, when you can cram into one word command an entire sequence of actions)

Huh. That seems interesting, yeah; anyone got pictures of that spell in different languages?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Huh. That seems interesting, yeah; anyone got pictures of that spell in different languages?

I should note that in 3.5 they seem to have patched it and now they list the commands you are allowed to use (unless I'm thinking of a completely different spell... it's been a while), rather than have a blanket "any one order you can think of", so I'm guessing even in English, there were substantial loopholes.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I should note that in 3.5 they seem to have patched it and now they list the commands you are allowed to use (unless I'm thinking of a completely different spell... it's been a while), rather than have a blanket "any one order you can think of", so I'm guessing even in English, there were substantial loopholes.

Grey Wolf

Evidently not enough for them to return back to "any one-word command" in 5e, although they make it explicit that the DM decides how they react and if it works.

[ReaderAt2046]

My top vote is Option I, followed by B, C, and Z.

Also, on a slight tangent, I think it would be worth adding a note to Section 2C to remind posters that the MITD expresses pleasure in the sunlight in his initial appearance in Start of Darkness, since we've had people proposing monsters that are burnt or harmed by light before.

[Joerg]

Hmm, reading the 3.5 spell description, it doesn't have a one word limit, it doesn't say that you have to explicitly say every detail of the wish out loud, and it says the spell is only 'unfriendly' if you wish for more than is listed in the examples.

So if the MitD wished for 'O-Chul and his wizard friend shall be transported away from here to where O-Chul would be most happy to be" and triggered that wish spell with the word 'escape', I see no reason why the spell shouldn't transport them to Hinjo.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

My top vote is Option I, followed by B, C, and Z.

So noted.

Also, on a slight tangent, I think it would be worth adding a note to Section 2C to remind posters that the MITD expresses pleasure in the sunlight in his initial appearance in Start of Darkness, since we've had people proposing monsters that are burnt or harmed by light before.

I don't have SoD at hand - can I get a page number & the exact quote, please? That'll make it easy for me to add (it'll go in section 1a, though, with all the other canon quotes).

Hmm, reading the 3.5 spell description, it doesn't have a one word limit, it doesn't say that you have to explicitly say every detail of the wish out loud, and it says the spell is only 'unfriendly' if you wish for more than is listed in the examples.

"By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.". And no, Wish doesn't have a one word limit - that's command - but the reality is that MitD only used one word, regardless of how many he would have been allowed had it been Wish that he was using.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

Hmm, reading the 3.5 spell description, it doesn't have a one word limit, it doesn't say that you have to explicitly say every detail of the wish out loud, and it says the spell is only 'unfriendly' if you wish for more than is listed in the examples.

So if the MitD wished for 'O-Chul and his wizard friend shall be transported away from here to where O-Chul would be most happy to be" and triggered that wish spell with the word 'escape', I see no reason why the spell shouldn't transport them to Hinjo.

The MITD has little to no tangible idea of where O-chul would be most happy to be. Also, given that O-chul is a paladin, that doesnt necessarily correspond to safety. So the Wish has to extrapolate that, which takes it beyond the simple transportation.

[Crusher]

The issue I have is with the hypocrisy of accepting ridiculously complex explanations for the escape scene while denying the possibility than say, Rich fudged the weight limit of telekenesis in order to make a joke.

It'd be nice to have some leeway for explanation believability.

Remember, it isn't GW_c or anyone else choosing to grant or not grant that leeway, its a group consensus.

Here's how I look at it, and you can make of it what you will. People are effectively decision-making algorithms. You, me, everyone. And each algorithm is structured differently. Everyone's specific variables are slightly different as is the accompanying weighting.

In the case of MitD candidates, each of us views the candidacies through the different lenses of our personal algorithms. Some put more weight on strictly following the FBS list, others more on how well a candidate fits from what they perceive to be the standpoint of the story, and others focus on non-FBS list criteria like eye color/position, probable skill proficiency (Knowledge: Spellcraft, perhaps) or other things. There's no right or wrong, its just how our individual mental wiring interacts with the puzzle.

To successfully get something on the FBS list, you have to "solve" 100 (or however many it really is, I have no idea) different algorithms with different variables and weightings, simultaneously. Most are willing to cut some slack in one area or another and still result in an acceptance, but each one is going to have different areas of increased or reduced tolerance.

I feel like you're focused on solving one algorithm, possibly GW_c's, when the actual success criteria requires solving 100. At any rate, this isn't intended as a criticism of your posts, I'm just sharing how I personally view the process of advocating for an FBS candidate and what I keep in mind when I try to do it.

[dmc91356]

Hmm, with the changes since my initial vote, I guess I am now going with:

C > B > F > I > Z

Thanks.

[Crusher]

I also do not remember if I ever officially voted on the monster so I want to cast my vote for protean.

And I want to register Xenocryst as my guess.

Both are recorded.

[Kish]

Wish is unfriendly if the DM wants it to be,

Yes, this.

Or even more precisely: Wish is one spell that has a large number of "this DM used my wording (or, more often, something vaguely related to my wording) against me" stories associated with it. That means neither that such is actually a trait of the spell* nor that a good DM/writer, faced with a Wish which is by no means out of bounds for the power of a ninth-level spell, would do that.

*Previous editions do bear some responsibility for this, in that they talk about how to use the wording of unbalanced Wishes against the wisher. But even there, the DM is only supposed to start the hostile parsing if the intent of the Wish is actually abusive. 3.0ed and 3.5ed are much more straightforward and much less obnoxious about limiting the spell.

[Mightymosy]

I wonder who is doing the actual wishing.
Would make it cleaner if MitD was *granting* O Chul's unspoken wish, wouldnt it?

Like, MitD's species is good at reading people's wishes and fullfilling them, with magic.
Thats why he seems like super prey to the big game hunters, an oddity to the circus visitors, a friend to the goblin children, a powerful monster to Redcload and Xykon, a formidable foe to Miko, and again a desperately needed friend to O chul.
Later, a powerful beast to Oona, and someone who understands her problems with being a not really appreciated goblin subspecies.
Also, he kinda understood Tsukikos desires...

Maybe thats just high empathy, but looking at some scenes he seems to become what people wish for/need or expect.

Note the words in the escape scene. He says "you NEED to escape"

If only Djinn werent so umderpowered in D&D

[Crusher]

I wonder who is doing the actual wishing.
Would make it cleaner if MitD was *granting* O Chul's unspoken wish, wouldnt it?

Like, MitD's species is good at reading people's wishes and fullfilling them, with magic.
Thats why he seems like super prey to the big game hunters, an oddity to the circus visitors, a friend to the goblin children, a powerful monster to Redcload and Xykon, a formidable foe to Miko, and again a desperately needed friend to O chul.
Later, a powerful beast to Oona, and someone who understands her problems with being a not really appreciated goblin subspecies.
Also, he kinda understood Tsukikos desires...

Maybe thats just high empathy, but looking at some scenes he seems to become what people wish for/need or expect.

Note the words in the escape scene. He says "you NEED to escape"

If only Djinn werent so umderpowered in D&D

Yep. It’s part of the reason the Glabrezu has held on decently well despite being a little underpowered and an embodiment of Chaotic Evil. Granting people wishes is it’s thing, overlooking the small problem of it expecting the wish to used for an evil purpose.

Just speculating, the IFC has never commented on MitD, right? Because saving V, at least, would certainly have advanced their obscure, but certainly Evil, goals.

[Kish]

I wonder who is doing the actual wishing.
Would make it cleaner if MitD was *granting* O Chul's unspoken wish, wouldnt it?

Considering O-Chul's previously expressed priorities, I'd say, "No, that leaves the question of why they got teleported away untouched and adds the question of why O-Chul didn't suddenly smash Xykon to powder."

[Throknor]

Jeez; decide to relax for a weekend and you miss a lot in a thread about a character that hasn't appeared recently.

First, I vote Z->F->G->H->I->Z->B->A. That seems to be the order for least changes first.

Wish doesn't have a one word limit - that's command - but the reality is that MitD only used one word, regardless of how many he would have been allowed had it been Wish that he was using.

Grey Wolf

MITD's entire statement is "You're my friend, you HAVE to be OK! It can't end like this! It's not fair! You need to leave. You need to - ESCAPE." If taken as the entire Wish the "you HAVE to b OK" clause can translate into being sent back to his fellow paladins. At least being there gives O'Chul better odds of being OK than simply outside the tower, outside the city, or pretty much anywhere else on the planet.

Of course, this doesn't appear to directly explain V going as well. However, whatever grants the Wish could recognize that O'Chul would not willingly (or willfully) leave an unconscious V behind to die and thus would not be "OK" without V. And since he clearly was OK afterwards without the MITD the same grantor would either leave MITD behind from the phrasing., or simply did not overcome the rogue Dimensional Anchor.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

First, I vote Z->F->G->H->I->Z->B->A. That seems to be the order for least changes first.

... That's exactly one more than the arbitrary number of columns I have. Hopefully you don't mind if I put the last two in a single column, because it doesn't seem worth to add an extra column or an extra row just for that.

Grey Wolf

[Sir_Norbert]

You could take one of those Zs out.