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  1. - Top - End - #181
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    You could take one of those Zs out.
    Two Z, or not Two Z, that is the question.
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  2. - Top - End - #182
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    You could take one of those Zs out.
    ...

    Ok, yes, I think I can do that. Sorry, I do honestly not look at the votes when I copy them - the table structure is so fiddly I concentrate on placing the letters in the right order in the right spots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  3. - Top - End - #183
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    How much longer will voting be open? I'm finding myself conflicted about what to vote for and have been stalling as a result.

  4. - Top - End - #184
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Algeh View Post
    How much longer will voting be open? I'm finding myself conflicted about what to vote for and have been stalling as a result.
    By the rules, until it's been a day without new votes. In practice, it tends to be a few days without votes, because I'm not standing here with a stopwatch. I also tend to not count weekend days as real days for this purpose, due to the considerable drop-off in posting on weekends. Given we're in page 7, too, I'll probably won't even check if it's been 24 hours until we hit page 11, because that's when I'd incorporate the changes to the OP anyway - no point in closing a vote and then sitting on it.

    So, here is my promise: I won't close the vote before page 10. That works?

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-19 at 10:27 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #185
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    I'd like to vote in the order F -> B -> C -> I -> D -> A -> Z

  6. - Top - End - #186
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Medium, Str ?
    Quick note on Carb-Amorph size. I just found* a training fight where Schlock's weight was listed as 550 lbs. This puts him in the Large category by weight (and I'm told that is a more relevant meaure than length or width, one we don't use because all we have is MitD's height). Still, that is a solid, canonical meaure, so I'd list it as "Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph: Height: variable; Weight 550 lbs (Large), Str: enough to use heavy defensive barriers as flyswatters"

    The last bit, by the way, I thought I had already linked in the OP, but it doesn't seem to be there. Does anyone remember the moment and can provide me with a link?

    Grey Wolf

    *I technically knew it existed all along, but just remembered it introduced the "only cheaters prosper" maxim, and that's what allowed me to track it down
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-19 at 11:25 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #187
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    This puts him in the Large category by weight (and I'm told that is a more relevant meaure than length or width, one we don't use because all we have is MitD's height).
    No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure. The table explicitly says the weight ranges are for a creature with same density as a regular animal...and it sounds like a carbosilicate amorph's density is variable.
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  8. - Top - End - #188
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    I'll be updating my vote to

    A > Any(G,H) > C > !Z

    (Some of those options weren't there originally; also, having to specify that I prefer A over C, and C over B, could very well have not been needed at all, but now it looks like it might be close enough for it to matter. I chose the path I estimated was likely to generate on average the least work for GW, but in the end, it caused me to have to update my vote twice. So, sorry for that.)
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  9. - Top - End - #189
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    Considering O-Chul's previously expressed priorities, I'd say, "No, that leaves the question of why they got teleported away untouched and adds the question of why O-Chul didn't suddenly smash Xykon to powder."
    A question I would answer with "Xykon is still a friend to MitD - and scary to MitD. In other words, even wishes do have limits"
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  10. - Top - End - #190
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    No, it's the opposite of that; the length (for a long creature) or height (for a tall creature) is the key measure. The table explicitly says the weight ranges are for a creature with same density as a regular animal...and it sounds like a carbosilicate amorph's density is variable.
    No, I think its density is the one thing that is mostly stable. Its form is really malleable, and depends heavily on how much he's eating lately, but the more he eats, the bigger he gets. In any case, even if I was hoping otherwise, weight is what we have, so it'll have to do, if it comes to having to explicitly say (although my preference continues to be to not try to cram the carb-amorph in to D&D stats).

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  11. - Top - End - #191
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post

    I don't have SoD at hand - can I get a page number & the exact quote, please? That'll make it easy for me to add (it'll go in section 1a, though, with all the other canon quotes).
    p. 49, panel 3: "Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—"

    Also, to go on another tangent, I do think there is some evidence for the MITD having a telekinetic ability that randomly adds force to its strikes. Both the tower scene and the Earthquake scene seem to indicate the MITD inflicting a tremendous amount of force by accident (it was playing "who can hit lightest" with Miko, and the way its dialog is phrased in the Earthquake scene certainly sounds like it only casually stomped the ground and was surprised at getting an Earthquake). But it doesn't exert this level of force all the time, it's not smashing holes in the ground just by walking around or smashing through the Hollow doors when it paints them. So either something is causing its strength to fluctuate at random, such that it cannot always gauge how much force it is using, or else it has some kind of effect that randomly adds huge amounts of kinetic energy to minor touches.

    Which might be a point in favor of the Protean, come to think of it. If its physical form is constantly roiling and bubbling, then it might logically have moments where it suddenly finds itself putting far more muscle behind a strike than it meant to.
    Last edited by ReaderAt2046; 2020-07-20 at 07:37 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    p. 49, panel 3: "Oh man, I love the jungle! The sun, the blue skies, the fresh air—"
    Much appreciated. Added to 1a. It feels clunky to add it to section 2 ("enjoys the sunlight" is not really an ability, or a characteristic), but I did reference it in the Grue entry, which is the most relevant, I feel.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ... That's exactly one more than the arbitrary number of columns I have. Hopefully you don't mind if I put the last two in a single column, because it doesn't seem worth to add an extra column or an extra row just for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir_Norbert View Post
    You could take one of those Zs out.
    Actually, that was a typo. I'm basically trying to list every option that isn't remove/replace the FBS list in an order that seems to keep the size requirement. Maybe this is better.

    I'm just so damn tired of the NagaSnake {scrubbed}. As I understand it it's the same size as the Hel's deathsnake (or whatever it was) and that's just ludicrous.

    I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).

    Maybe the next vote could be to rename section 3b from "Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas" to "Frequently Proposed Less Likely Ideas". That might sound less judgemental. But lets get through this first, since it could become moot.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-20 at 10:56 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #194
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    I'm just so damn tired of the NagaSnake {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. As I understand it it's the same size as the Hel's deathsnake (or whatever it was) and that's just ludicrous.
    Longer. The nightshade/nightcrawler is "a massive behemoth similar to a purple worm, though utterly black in color." A Purple worm is "5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long", the Ha-Naga is over 100, 20% larger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).
    So noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Maybe the next vote could be to rename section 3b from "Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas" to "Frequently Proposed Less Likely Ideas". That might sound less judgemental. But lets get through this first, since it could become moot.
    How about I drop the judgemental bit entirely? "Frequently proposed Ideas"? Don't think we need a vote for that.

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    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-07-20 at 10:56 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Throknor View Post
    Actually, that was a typo. I'm basically trying to list every option that isn't remove/replace the FBS list in an order that seems to keep the size requirement. Maybe this is better.

    I'm just so damn tired of the NagaSnake crap. As I understand it it's the same size as the Hel's deathsnake (or whatever it was) and that's just ludicrous.

    I vote Z->F->G->H->I->!(D,E,C,B,A).

    Maybe the next vote could be to rename section 3b from "Frequently Proposed Unlikely Ideas" to "Frequently Proposed Less Likely Ideas". That might sound less judgemental. But lets get through this first, since it could become moot.
    It's worse than that. The Likeable Death Worm was (likely) a Nightcrawler, a Gargantuan monster just like the Purple Worm the Order rode to Girard's gate. The Ancient Black Dragon was Huge, one size category smaller so perhaps the Likeable Death Worm was on the smaller end of Gargantuan while the Purple Worm was a bigger Gargantuan.
    Anyway, the Ha-Naga is Colossal, one size category larger than Colossal, so a fully grown specimen should be bigger than a Purple Worm.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Probably wont make much of a difference, but in light of new options available, I'm changing to H > C > Z.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, I think its density is the one thing that is mostly stable. Its form is really malleable, and depends heavily on how much he's eating lately, but the more he eats, the bigger he gets. In any case, even if I was hoping otherwise, weight is what we have, so it'll have to do, if it comes to having to explicitly say (although my preference continues to be to not try to cram the carb-amorph in to D&D stats).

    Grey Wolf
    The length measurement uses it's longest dimension, Schlock can stretch even his normal size to extreme lengths when he wants to and we've seen him flatten out to be a parachute sized thing for a large man, he can definitely be huge or more based on length if he wants to. Remember that he occasionally infiltrates through the plumbing by assuming a long, thin form.

    When moving he frequently stretches out quite a bit.

    His density is presumably close to 1, he can fit in a 5'x5' space, but that's a rest form with no limbs and his dimensions in that form are no more representative of his size than a snake coiling, when active, he does stuff like hold multiple large men in the air at a well separated distances.

    If I had to class Schlock's size for D&D I'd say large, with a comment that he can eat and grow to colossal given enough food.

  18. - Top - End - #198
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    How about I drop the judgemental bit entirely? "Frequently proposed Ideas"? Don't think we need a vote for that.
    Good idea. It would allow moving creatures there which are frequently proposed and not as unlikely as Snarl jr. The Zodar maybe? Or the Ha-Naga? I don't know if it is frequently proposed, but it's frequently discussed and moving it may just make 3power a bit more happy. (Of course, if option A wins, it may end up in the FBS section anyway.)
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    It's occurred to me that I don't actually care about size being removed, but at the same time it feels like most of the people who are for that just want to stop having the same fight again and again. The Xenocrysth is one of the few cases where it feels like it actually just might fit, though it's still a definite con.

    I'd like to change my vote to I->A->Z


    As an aside, insofar as I am aware there are 2-3 people who actively support the Ha-Naga despite the several glaring flaws it has. It's only had so much attention because due to the lack of MitD in the last hundred comics, fighting over it has been the one thing consuming this thread; otherwise I would imagine it would be just another candidate in the list like the other many, many monsters in the big list.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-07-20 at 10:26 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Joerg View Post
    Good idea. It would allow moving creatures there which are frequently proposed and not as unlikely as Snarl jr. The Zodar maybe? Or the Ha-Naga? I don't know if it is frequently proposed, but it's frequently discussed and moving it may just make 3power a bit more happy. (Of course, if option A wins, it may end up in the FBS section anyway.)
    The idea here is to list creatures that multiple different individuals have independently brought up. The Ha-Naga doesn't qualify because it is just the one person. The Zodar I could see an argument for, but it's not really been suggested all that often in the thread itself. Not compared to Tarrasque, Grue, "a god", and variations on "Mary Sue", which multiple people suggested at different times (e.g. a few pages back Gareth235's suggestion of a deity). If anything, we probably could drop Pun-Pun out of the list - it's been ages since that one was brought up.

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-20 at 11:01 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Quebbster View Post
    It's worse than that. The Likeable Death Worm was (likely) a Nightcrawler, a Gargantuan monster just like the Purple Worm the Order rode to Girard's gate. The Ancient Black Dragon was Huge, one size category smaller so perhaps the Likeable Death Worm was on the smaller end of Gargantuan while the Purple Worm was a bigger Gargantuan.
    Anyway, the Ha-Naga is Colossal, one size category larger than Colossal, so a fully grown specimen should be bigger than a Purple Worm.
    I've interpreted the purple worm the Order encountered to be Colossal since it increases to that size after sufficient hit die advancement. Point still stands though, the Ha-Naga is gigasized.
    Last edited by catagent101; 2020-07-20 at 11:14 AM. Reason: brackets
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    By the rules, until it's been a day without new votes. In practice, it tends to be a few days without votes, because I'm not standing here with a stopwatch. I also tend to not count weekend days as real days for this purpose, due to the considerable drop-off in posting on weekends. Given we're in page 7, too, I'll probably won't even check if it's been 24 hours until we hit page 11, because that's when I'd incorporate the changes to the OP anyway - no point in closing a vote and then sitting on it.

    So, here is my promise: I won't close the vote before page 10. That works?

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    Perfect! Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    How about I drop the judgemental bit entirely? "Frequently proposed Ideas"? Don't think we need a vote for that.

    Grey Wolf
    That seems like a good change to me. My understanding of the point of that section is to give people a relatively short list of things to skim and and realize have already been discussed when they want to make suggestions (with already-identified drawbacks noted), so I don't think the word "unlikely" is doing much to help with that purpose.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    In this case the Rule of Funny applies specificly and only to the holes left in the wall. Note there is a Miko-shaped hole and a Windstrider-shaped hole. Straight out of cartoons.
    What you wrote is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    I too have problems with the Str requirement. Because the scenes which require high Str can be explained in other ways. For example, punching Miko through the tower wall can be explained by telekinesis / psychokinesis and the rule of funny.
    Which implies you believe you can handwave the STR requirement away with Rule of Funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReaderAt2046 View Post
    Which might be a point in favor of the Protean, come to think of it. If its physical form is constantly roiling and bubbling, then it might logically have moments where it suddenly finds itself putting far more muscle behind a strike than it meant to.
    It's also difficult for a creature of 53 STR that doesn't know how strong it is to hit lightly.

    Voting

    F, Z, I

    I'm strongly against taking the size requirement out entirely, as I haven't been convinced there's a good reason for that other than "people want to fit their pet monsters into the FBS."
    Last edited by Ruck; 2020-07-20 at 11:42 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    My understanding of that was section was that these ideas are constantly suggested despite having just, so many flaws, everywhere, so its saying:

    "Hey, I know you think its the Tarrasque/Snarl/Grue/A God/Rich/Pun-Pun, but its been brought up a lot, and it has a billion giant problems, here are all of the problems so we don't have to bring them up again unless someone has a way to overcome these major problems."

    And just calling them frequently proposed, imo, lessens the understanding, you see frequently proposed and read "popular" you see frequently proposed unlikely and read "these aren't very good", which imo, helps the section.
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    I recognize that Conservation of Detail is Overrated, but I find the event that I am using as evidence for my theory above important enough/given enough focus to qualify for what I call Elan’s Exception, “Who wastes perfectly good foreshadowing like that?”. Also I have never correctly predicted any event in any piece of media so take this theory with a grain of salt (I call this Peelee’s Ye Old Reminder).

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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Schroeswald View Post
    And just calling them frequently proposed, imo, lessens the understanding, you see frequently proposed and read "popular" you see frequently proposed unlikely and read "these aren't very good", which imo, helps the section.
    That's fair, but on the other hand, the sentence that opens up the category does address that: "These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem."

    (Note to self: bit redundant, that, Grey. Maybe consider rewriting the second "major"?)

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    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-20 at 11:42 AM.
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    MitD has canonically met that jumping teleporting psionic beetle, right? I think it was in one of the prequel books?

    Shouldn't that be mentioned as another example of a creature that Protean!MitD could have met to be able to pull off a teleport, since he has in the books met and interacted with it, meaning he would be able to use its abilities.
    Last edited by Squire Doodad; 2020-07-20 at 11:44 AM.
    An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.

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  27. - Top - End - #207
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    MitD has canonically met that jumping teleporting psionic beetle, right? I think it was in one of the prequel books?

    Shouldn't that be mentioned as another example of a creature that Protean!MitD could have met to be able to pull off a teleport, since he has in the books met and interacted with it, meaning he would be able to use its abilities.
    I would be really surprised if whatever that thing was could teleport as an EX and not as a SU, but if anyone reminds what it was, I'll check.

    GW

  28. - Top - End - #208
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    That's fair, but on the other hand, the sentence that opens up the category does address that: "These ideas have been frequently brought up, but they fail in a major way that presents a major problem."

    (Note to self: bit redundant, that, Grey. Maybe consider rewriting the second "major"?)

    GW
    Maybe replace either "major" with "significant"?
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  29. - Top - End - #209
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    Last edited by Ruck; Today at 11:42 AM.
    Voting

    F, Z, I
    One day, if it hasn't happened already, I'm going to miss one of these votes-in-edits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Maybe replace either "major" with "significant"?
    Gift, Mouth, Horse, some assembly required.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2020-07-20 at 11:51 AM.
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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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  30. - Top - End - #210
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    Default Re: MitD XV: The Other Dark One

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Gift, Mouth, Horse, some assembly required.

    GW
    Instructions unclear, horse has been placed in the mouth of a gift.
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