Dungeons & Doppelgängers

[PartyOfRogues]

Spoiler: Recruitment Post

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Spoiler: Basic Rules

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For those of you unfamiliar with this game format, this will be a largely freeform game with some overarching procedural rules in place. For a more thorough understanding of the general format, use this link..

Here is how the game will proceed:

1) The game will start on a Day Phase. Day phases will be 48 hours long, Night phases will be 24 hours long.

2) During the day phase, all living players can talk, discuss things, and cast their votes for who will be lynched. If you cast your vote a second time, please strikethrough your previous vote. At the end of the Day Phase, I will make a post cutting off vote changes, tally up the votes, and declare who has been lynched, and what their role is. Private communication is allowed via PMs, although for the sake of my inbox I would prefer that you set up a QuickTopic thread for such private communication.

3) During the night phase, players may communicate publicly and privately. Players may use their night powers if they have one during this time.

4) The game ends when the doppelgängers have a majority.

5) There will be no auto-lynch rules in this game.

Spoiler: Roles

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Artificer: Once per game, you may set a trap on one player, killing anyone who targets them that night.
Barbarian: Each night, you can choose to go into a rage, killing anyone who targets you that night.
Bard: Each night you may choose a player to distract, that player’s action targets you that night.
Cleric: Each night you may choose a player other than yourself, that player is protected from dying that night.
Druid: Each night you may choose to transform into an animal, you can then kill one person, but you cannot vote the next day.
Fighter: Each knight, you may choose one player to kill.
Monk: Each night you may stun a player, preventing their action that knight.
Paladin: Each night you may choose to guard a player other than yourself, you are treated as the target of all actions that would target that player.
Ranger: Each night you can choose to track one player and learn who they visit that night.
Rogue: Once per game, you may poison a player, they know they are poisoned, and die at the end of the next day.
Sorcerer: Once per game you may choose a player, any actions that would target you that night are redirected to them.
Warlock: Once per game, you can sacrifice someone during the night, you are then protected the next time you would die.
Wizard: Each night choose a player, you learn whether or not they are a doppelgänger.
Doppelgänger: Every night the doppelgängers choose one person to kill

Player List:
AvatarVecna
Valmark
Gac3
Snowblaze
JeenLeen
BunnyofFaith
Apogee1
Unavenger
RougeAlchemist
CaohiminTheCape
MornShine
FleeingCoward
Aventine
Libro

You have entered the dungeon, killed the doppelgängers, and stopped the mad wizard’s ritual, but when you return to the entrance, it has collapsed, and the doppelgängers bodies are gone, without investigating the bodies, you can’t know if they were your companions or the real doppelgängers.

PartyOfRogues, the Mad Wizard was killed. 48 hours begins now.

[Valmark]

Voting AvatarVecna before Snowblaze forces me to vote myself!

[AvatarVecna]

Valmark as a placeholder. And for no other reason.

No other reason.

[MornShine]

RNG gods say CaohiminTheCape is looking suspicious.

[Aventine]

I'll toss a vote onto Apogee

[Unavenger]

RNG poke Snowblaze

[gac3]

[COLOR="#FF0000"]Rogue Alchemist[/COLOR] because I mess up them and party of rogues sometimes and this will be easier

[Grand Arbiter]

JeenLeen, as they are the first person going down the list that has neither voted nor been voted for.

[Apogee1]

Aventine

OMGUS!

[JeenLeen]

First, some analysis on the Roles for the Town.
If I counted right, there are 14 players and (effectively) 13 roles. I say 13 roles since 14 are listed, but one is doppelganger, and it seems from the recruitment thread that the doppelgangers are weaker-powered versions of the actual roles--so we have 13 roles that anyone can claim, and not being counterclaimed means nothing since (presumably) a doppelganger-role means the real-role doesn't exist. However, it's possible we might have at least one duo since the number of players is more than the roles.

I'm guessing the Wizard is one of the roles that will really exist as Town, since no-seer is a really bad position to be in.

I have two questions I'd like people to answer. I think how people answer these might give a good indication of their wolf/town status. In addition, it might point out some loophole I haven't considered about my own answer to these. I'll post my answers after I've seen others.
Does anyone think the Barbarian should publicly claim?
Does anyone think it'd be a good idea for us all to mass-claim our roles? (I strongly recommend we not do this yet, even if we do it late D1, but just asking about opinions about it.)

---

And I reckon I should vote for someone, so I'll do a retributive one on the one person I know voted for a Townie: Libro
That said, no hard feelings if Town offs me tonight. I wouldn't be surprised if about half of us are dead come D2.

Question for our DM, PartyOfRouges: if the Warlock sacrifices someone tonight, but also would be killed tonight, do they survive (since did the sacrifice) or die (since the immunity hasn't come through yet)?

[PartyOfRogues]

The warlock would survive

[Fleeing Coward]

I think this is the perfect time to go Rogue Alchemist

Everyone else appears too scared to put a second vote on anyone.

- - - Updated - - -

You also never mass claim this game though with the current numbers and anyone who claims Barb will likely not be an actual Barb.

[Aventine]

Everyone else appears too scared to put a second vote on anyone.

Agreed. I'll go with JeenLeen

[Snowblaze]

Two wagons are better than one. Don’t you agree, Valmark?

...wait, do I really want to share a wagon with AV? And I did deathtunnel Valmark last game, I need to make up for that.

...who cares? He killed me when I was a neutral survivor.

Also, would kindly like to request that people refrain from excess mechanical speculation. That’s my excuse for having such terrible reads in Jellicle Ball.

That being said, I would also like to request that any town role with a killing power not use it night one. Accidentally killing the Wizard or Cleric would be pretty catastrophic.

... this was never meant to be a wallpost. Honestly.

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...three wagons. I do know what I’m doing, honestly.

[gac3]

Snowblaze

Don't talk about mechanics
Townies don't use a kill (granted reasonable)
I need to lynch someone who caused me to lose a game months ago

Some of this seems out of character for Snow, meaning a doppelganger has replaced them

[Snowblaze]

Snowblaze

Don't talk about mechanics
Townies don't use a kill (granted reasonable)
I need to lynch someone who caused me to lose a game months ago

Some of this seems out of character for Snow, meaning a doppelganger has replaced them

Is this a serious read?

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I don't have a problem with talking about mechanics, I have a problem with the entire day being nothing but mechanical speculation with the result that I find it hard to get reads out of it and just end up going "yeah, that makes sense, you can be town".

That was what happened in Jellicle Ball, and probably a large part of the reason I ended up townreading the entire scumteam. I'd prefer for it not to happen again.

And the Valmark thing is clearly a joke. I don't actually want him lynched. Yet.

[Valmark]

First, some analysis on the Roles for the Town.
If I counted right, there are 14 players and (effectively) 13 roles. I say 13 roles since 14 are listed, but one is doppelganger, and it seems from the recruitment thread that the doppelgangers are weaker-powered versions of the actual roles--so we have 13 roles that anyone can claim, and not being counterclaimed means nothing since (presumably) a doppelganger-role means the real-role doesn't exist. However, it's possible we might have at least one duo since the number of players is more than the roles.

I'm guessing the Wizard is one of the roles that will really exist as Town, since no-seer is a really bad position to be in.

I have two questions I'd like people to answer. I think how people answer these might give a good indication of their wolf/town status. In addition, it might point out some loophole I haven't considered about my own answer to these. I'll post my answers after I've seen others.
Does anyone think the Barbarian should publicly claim?
Does anyone think it'd be a good idea for us all to mass-claim our roles? (I strongly recommend we not do this yet, even if we do it late D1, but just asking about opinions about it.)

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And I reckon I should vote for someone, so I'll do a retributive one on the one person I know voted for a Townie: Libro
That said, no hard feelings if Town offs me tonight. I wouldn't be surprised if about half of us are dead come D2.

Question for our DM, PartyOfRouges: if the Warlock sacrifices someone tonight, but also would be killed tonight, do they survive (since did the sacrifice) or die (since the immunity hasn't come through yet)?

Ultimately, I'm not sure. The barbarian can avoid useless Town deaths but then no doppel will target them (unless a sorcerer pushes them on the barbarian). Roughly the same thing with the Arteficer, though they could lie about their target too. I wouldn't claim publicly.

I don't think we should mass claim. It looks like from Rogues' words that doppels have one of the listed roles, so mass claiming would help only them.

Unless I'm reading too much into the narration, that is. He says that it's not possible to determine who the corpses belong to, so makes sense doppels wouldn't have copycats of other people's powers but their own even if weaker. No idea about the 14th though.

I think this is the perfect time to go Rogue Alchemist

Everyone else appears too scared to put a second vote on anyone.

- - - Updated - - -

You also never mass claim this game though with the current numbers and anyone who claims Barb will likely not be an actual Barb.

Why would a potential barbarian claimant likely be a liar?

Two wagons are better than one. Don’t you agree, Valmark?

...wait, do I really want to share a wagon with AV? And I did deathtunnel Valmark last game, I need to make up for that.

...who cares? He killed me when I was a neutral survivor.

Also, would kindly like to request that people refrain from excess mechanical speculation. That’s my excuse for having such terrible reads in Jellicle Ball.

That being said, I would also like to request that any town role with a killing power not use it night one. Accidentally killing the Wizard or Cleric would be pretty catastrophic.

... this was never meant to be a wallpost. Honestly.

- - - Updated - - -

...three wagons. I do know what I’m doing, honestly.

I agree! And I didn't know you were a neutral!
I would have killed you Night 0 in that case u.u

Honestly, I too believe it better if we don't start shooting kills willy-nilly- though this sets Town at a disadvantage another way (Power Roles not doing their job at night) so I'm unsure what's really the best course of action.

On another note, I got an answer to my questions in the recruitment in private- I do believe it better to be shared, so:

- If a bard targets a barbarian, what happens? Does the former get the latter's power? Same kind of question with a paladin. The Bard dies. No word on the paladin. In hindsight that was a useless question, since there is no visiboe strange interaction between Bard and Paladin.
- Does an arteficer that sets the trap on a barbarian end up dead? The Arteficer dies.
- If a sorcerer targets a trapped player, who dies? The sorcerer that sprung the trap or the player thanks to the sorcerer power? Same question between sorcerer and barbarian. Those that target the sorcerer would die.
- Does a warlock defence take effect before kill attempts? Meaning if they sacrifice somebody are they protected the same night? I know, Jeen already got an answer to this, but still: They'd be protected.

[Bunny of Faith]

I'll toss my vote on rogue_alchemist, which puts the votes so far at:

AvatarVecna - (Valmark)
Valmark - (AvatarVecna, Snowblaze)
CaohiminTheCape - (Mornshine)
Snowblaze - (Unavenger, gac3)
rogue_alchemist - (Fleeing Coward, Bunny of Faith)
JeenLeen - (Libro, Aventine)
Aventine - (Apogee1)
Libro - (JeenLeen)

I believe, with rogue_alchemist and CaohiminTheCape being the only people not to vote yet. Although I'm suspicious of AV because there's no mass QT, what's up with that?

[Snowblaze]

You have gac3 as voting for me and rogue_alchemist simultaneously. Which isn't the case.

[Bunny of Faith]

You have gac3 as voting for me and rogue_alchemist simultaneously. Which isn't the case.

Thanks, fixed - they didn't cross out their vote for rogue_alchemist so I hadn't realised.

[gac3]

Is this a serious read?

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I don't have a problem with talking about mechanics, I have a problem with the entire day being nothing but mechanical speculation with the result that I find it hard to get reads out of it and just end up going "yeah, that makes sense, you can be town".

That was what happened in Jellicle Ball, and probably a large part of the reason I ended up townreading the entire scumteam. I'd prefer for it not to happen again.

And the Valmark thing is clearly a joke. I don't actually want him lynched. Yet.

I put them in order from most serious to least serious.

[JeenLeen]

I realized I can probably throw why I think a mass-claim might be helpful, without ruining the effect of asking the question.

If everyone claims (even though we know some are liars, or doppelgangers claiming their Role but with weakened/altered Wolf variants), we could set up some plan for tonight. Whoever fails to do the plan, or who the plan shows is likely doppelganger, dies.
I haven't thought through the possible mixes, but I could see something like:
-Barbarian does not rage
-Cleric protects Barbarian
-Wizard scrys Barbarian
-Paladin protects Wizard
and some other stuff. Maybe most of us target our kills at one of the protected parties.
I could see a big "pro-Town" move if we can get a confirmed Barbarian, but the Barbarian needs someone protecting them to feel safe not to rage N1. Although my plan could fatally fail if, say, the Barbarian and Wizard are both Wolf. And of course giving the wolves the intel on who is who is almost always bad.
So maybe it's bad to do it now, but might be useful later in the game to set up some scenario that tests powers and maybe IDs wolves by who doesn't play ball. (Or, if the wolves do play along... well, that probably limits them doing anything bad to Town that night, so maybe it's not too bad. I reckon it's possible a coordinated Town of 4 or 5 might be able to finagle their powers to prevent any deaths.)

Also, as I look at the powers, Barbarian seems one of the strongest ones. In that sense, if the DM assigned doppelgangers based on pre-made decisions instead of randomly, it's reasonable to think the Barbarian might be a doppelganger, simply since it's base power is stronger than most Town. On the other hand, we have other powers that are like that, e.g., the Druid is just a weakened version of the Fighter (both get a NK, but the Druid loses its vote if they use it). So I'm not really sure if we can use that to help figure out the probability a given Role is a wolf.
Once we kill a wolf, we might be able to extrapolate which Role they had to help figure out if it was seemingly random or some of the stronger roles.

Sorry if some of the above is written a touch poorly; kinda tired and been a busy day.

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Also, as rogue_alchemist hasn't voted yet and I'm one of the people with a 2-vote wagon in addition to him, I'm moving my vote to Valmark for now as a defensive move. I may move it later if there's strong reason, but this way I can be sure I'm not the first person to 3 votes.

[AvatarVecna]

Although I'm suspicious of AV because there's no mass QT, what's up with that?

Last time they held off, it was because they'd chosen to be a cultist for that game. Good odds they're a wolf avoiding the pro-town strat.

[Valmark]

Last time they held off, it was because they'd chosen to be a cultist for that game. Good odds they're a wolf avoiding the pro-town strat.

...are you speaking of yourself in third person?

[AvatarVecna]

...are you speaking of yourself in third person?

No, that'd be ridiculous.

[Aventine]

I realized I can probably throw why I think a mass-claim might be helpful, without ruining the effect of asking the question.

If everyone claims (even though we know some are liars, or doppelgangers claiming their Role but with weakened/altered Wolf variants), we could set up some plan for tonight. Whoever fails to do the plan, or who the plan shows is likely doppelganger, dies.
I haven't thought through the possible mixes, but I could see something like:
-Barbarian does not rage
-Cleric protects Barbarian
-Wizard scrys Barbarian
-Paladin protects Wizard
and some other stuff. Maybe most of us target our kills at one of the protected parties.
I could see a big "pro-Town" move if we can get a confirmed Barbarian, but the Barbarian needs someone protecting them to feel safe not to rage N1. Although my plan could fatally fail if, say, the Barbarian and Wizard are both Wolf. And of course giving the wolves the intel on who is who is almost always bad.
So maybe it's bad to do it now, but might be useful later in the game to set up some scenario that tests powers and maybe IDs wolves by who doesn't play ball. (Or, if the wolves do play along... well, that probably limits them doing anything bad to Town that night, so maybe it's not too bad. I reckon it's possible a coordinated Town of 4 or 5 might be able to finagle their powers to prevent any deaths.)

Also, as I look at the powers, Barbarian seems one of the strongest ones. In that sense, if the DM assigned doppelgangers based on pre-made decisions instead of randomly, it's reasonable to think the Barbarian might be a doppelganger, simply since it's base power is stronger than most Town. On the other hand, we have other powers that are like that, e.g., the Druid is just a weakened version of the Fighter (both get a NK, but the Druid loses its vote if they use it). So I'm not really sure if we can use that to help figure out the probability a given Role is a wolf.
Once we kill a wolf, we might be able to extrapolate which Role they had to help figure out if it was seemingly random or some of the stronger roles.

Sorry if some of the above is written a touch poorly; kinda tired and been a busy day.

---

Also, as rogue_alchemist hasn't voted yet and I'm one of the people with a 2-vote wagon in addition to him, I'm moving my vote to Valmark for now as a defensive move. I may move it later if there's strong reason, but this way I can be sure I'm not the first person to 3 votes.

I'm more confident about voting for JeenLeen now.

"We should do an organized plan. Like, maybe the baner and seer should target the guy who can kill anyone who targets him. Or maybe we shouldn't do any sort of organized plan like that."

[Valmark]

Guess I'll vote JeenLeen. I don't think the plan is incriminating in itself (I heard bad plans coming from Town before) but they are also the ones that think it a good idea to mass-claim in a game that doesn't look like it would do any good. In lack of better leads...

And, you know. Self-defense.

[JeenLeen]

Note, though, I was just saying I had an idea of a mass-claim, but I'm also saying the more I think about it, the worse it sounds like a good idea now. Rather, it might be a decent idea down the line when there's less players, the Town has some info, and everyone claiming could let the Town ferret out who isn't playing ball by making some set plan for a Night.
I mean, Aventine is accurately describing what I'm saying, but I feel like the connotation is a bit misleading.

My original thought was we could think up something for N1, but as I reflected on it, I figured that would just help the wolves. I wanted to know others' opinions on it since I thought the wolves would push for the mass-claim.

[Snowblaze]

Last time they held off, it was because they'd chosen to be a cultist for that game. Good odds they're a wolf avoiding the pro-town strat.

Um... no, that was because private messaging was banned that game. (Also, you would totally try the pro-town strategy as a wolf. See: the game where you tried the pro-town strategy as a wolf.)

[Snowblaze]

@JeenLeen:

Why is the fact that rogue_alchemist hasn’t posted relevant to your switch? You were voting for Libro rather than rogue_alchemist.

Why would you choose Valmark over me when gac3 has actually given a serious reason to suspect me, but there are no such reasons to suspect Valmark at the moment?