Dungeons & Doppelgängers

[Snowblaze]

I’m going to vote Valmark. Their play feels a bit like the last time we were both wolves.

I... actually kind of agree with this. Objectively, I should be townreading him for the way he responded to pressure yesterday and his posting the answers to his questions in recruitment publicly, but I'm just... not. My instinct is telling me something's a bit off about him. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm not even scumreading him like I did in Jellicle Ball. I'm just... not getting a read, and I'm wondering whether that's suspicious in itself.

(Or: Snowblaze continues to fail to read people, but at least this time she's honest about it instead of guessing and being horribly wrong.)

[Valmark]

Educated guess on AV killing rogue_alchemist. I don't know for certain, but it seems much more likely that they'd kill someone looking fairly suspicious than someone claiming to have a plan to prove themselves.

Fair, maybe it's just that I don't see why rogue was suspicious.

I'm not claiming fighter.

That means you could be a doppel, one of the other killing roles or both- it's a reasonable chance, and ignoring my questions does help my opinion.

You're actually missing the Warlock (and Rogue, sort of)- they get a once per game kill, so it could have been 4 night kills, plus anyone who visited the Barbarian.

I still don't like blocking someone who claims that they can prove themselves, even if it ended up saving yourself.

True on the Warlock. The Rogue was accounted for- I was actually considering only the kills that happen during the night.

Uh, I could actually see the Warlock shooting anyway- one probably wants that immunity as early as possible.

I guess it's not that big a deal that FC got blocked- Rogue has a once per game power, so if they use it next Night it's functionally the same (actually it has a higher chance of catching a Doppel since less people remain). Of course, this assuming both Libro and FC are Town.

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(Also, another thing on AV: going "I actually have to try" and then offering no contribution isn't a good-looking moment. Though that would apply to doppels and townies both I guess)

[Apogee1]

I called their role before they died in a QT, but they were the Ranger and asking the Bard to target them - which would mean they'd redirect gac to themselves, who would see that the person they targetted was gac. Doesn't seem like any power alive could verify it's success but it's a dead end at this point. The bard could verify they were redirected which proves a dead person's power, I don't know if they'd be able to verify their own power anymore though? It depends if the likes of the cleric and so on are told who their new target is when redirected. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Going to toss my vote at AvatarVecna, because they're either the doppelganger, the barbarian, or a town NKer throwing their kill about all willy-nilly. Unless people can explain to me why the town people with kills should be using them? It seems like a bad idea with how small a chance there is to hit the doppelganger.

Without getting into too much math, it's generally pro-town for a vig to shoot every night because it increases the percentage of town-driven kills.

It's more or less the same reason we don't sleep.

Of course, with one shot roles when they use them is more complicated

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I have more to say now that FC has spoken up...





I went out on a hunch that you weren’t the Barbarian and had something fishy planned for your night action. Your admission of planning to poison me makes my choice of roleblock target feel validated. (yes, I’m claiming Monk). I’m willing to put my money on FC being town given their posts, as I reckon a doppelgänger wouldn’t be quite so mad about failing to poison me when they have a night-kill.

I’m going to vote Valmark. Their play feels a bit like the last time we were both wolves.

And if you try to poison me again Fleeing Coward, it’s another stun for you.

I'm not a big fan of this.

Generally an ability to prove yourself town isn't something town would want to block

Claiming monk though in this situation if Libro is mafia is ?!? (because it's such a sus move) unless the thought is he'd have to claim anyways so it's best to get the opinion out on the front end

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I'm not claiming fighter.

For the record I don't think we should go AV today with what they are softing

But we might have to resolve there soon-ish barring other information

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No Posts: Apogee1, Unavenger, MornShine

I had posted btw

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I... actually kind of agree with this. Objectively, I should be townreading him for the way he responded to pressure yesterday and his posting the answers to his questions in recruitment publicly, but I'm just... not. My instinct is telling me something's a bit off about him. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm not even scumreading him like I did in Jellicle Ball. I'm just... not getting a read, and I'm wondering whether that's suspicious in itself.

(Or: Snowblaze continues to fail to read people, but at least this time she's honest about it instead of guessing and being horribly wrong.)

Hmm.

Don't particularly like this either

1+ scum between snowblaze and libro

[Valmark]

It's more or less the same reason we don't sleep.

Generally an ability to prove yourself town isn't something town would want to block.

For the record I don't think we should go AV today with what they are softing

I didn't get the thing about sleeping?

Be careful that FC wasn't going to prove themselves as Town- they were going to prove themselves as Rogue using their once a game poison on someone because they had a single 'random' vote on the lynched townie and nothing else. Which isn't a terrible decision, though still looks a bit flimsy for your one-time use in my opinion.

I honestly have no idea what she'd be softing that wouldn't make her a lynch target?

Anyway, PartyOfRouges, is there auto-lynching in this game?

[PartyOfRogues]

Anyway, PartyOfRouges, is there auto-lynching in this game?

No auto-lynching

[Aventine]

I'm switching to Valmark. The reasoning for voting for AV feels forced.

[Apogee1]

I didn't get the thing about sleeping?

Be careful that FC wasn't going to prove themselves as Town- they were going to prove themselves as Rogue using their once a game poison on someone because they had a single 'random' vote on the lynched townie and nothing else. Which isn't a terrible decision, though still looks a bit flimsy for your one-time use in my opinion.

I honestly have no idea what she'd be softing that wouldn't make her a lynch target?

Anyway, PartyOfRouges, is there auto-lynching in this game?

Ah sorry sleep = no lynch. Terminology from another site

Yeah but Libro didn’t know that going in yeah?

I’ll talk about AV tomorrow. Since it seems we are avoiding mass claims and such I see no reason to speculate on power roles right noe

[CaoimhinTheCape]

I had posted btw

My bad, thought you had but didn't see the post on a second look through.

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@ AV, FleeingCoward, Apogee1 - We have less than a day left, care to commit to a vote?

No auto-lynching

I still am worried about Libro, but considering the above, I'm going to put a little more pressure on MornShine for now. We'll need to deal with people not posting eventually.

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Vote Count

AvatarVacna 2 (BunnyofFaith, Valmark)
MornShine 2 (Snowblaze, CaohiminTheCape)
Valmark 2 (Libro, Aventine)

Not Voting: AvatarVecna, FleeingCoward, Apogee1
No Posts: Unavenger, MornShine

[Valmark]

Yeah but Libro didn’t know that going in yeah?

Didn't they? FC said a "mechanically provable role", never said Town. Indeed, Libro said that they didn't think FC was a barbarian and that they planned something fishy.

It would be kind of weird if you blocked someone because they are going to prove themselves Town.

[MornShine]

Yup, I'm here. Here's my two cents:

When FC claimed that they were roleblocked and thus couldn't prove themselves, that seemed extremely suspicious. However, with Libro corroborating, I'm willing to believe it... for now.

I'm also a little bit miffed that FC would use his 1/game poison first night on someone whom was only suspected as scum, especially when Libro, at the time, didn't seem incredibly suspicious to me.

Also, Rogue in general seems like a hard class to prove: either you poison an ally, who can confirm they were poisoned, and then dies... or you poison someone else, in which case many kill-powers would suffice. Also, if FC doesn't get the poison back, then that's also an easy ruse.

Of course, that's assuming that PartyofRogues doesn't explicitly mentioned in the... killfeed? that they were poisoned, just that they died.

So... FoS on FC?

A quick look at the Roles list reveals AV, claiming credit for one kill, could be a fairly large number of roles-- Druid, Warlock, even Artificer or Rogue. Though I'm a bit suspicious as to why they're not claiming, unless they're doppelgänger, and they seem to be trying to give as little information as possible. Also, by claiming that they're not the fighter, AV conveniently removes themselves from the list of town-assured roles. Very suspicious.

I don't really have a read either way on Libro, yet. History has taught me that most of reads are a bit shaky anyhow.

So, let's put one more vote on AvatarVecna.

[Apogee1]

Let's try Libro

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Didn't they? FC said a "mechanically provable role", never said Town. Indeed, Libro said that they didn't think FC was a barbarian and that they planned something fishy.

It would be kind of weird if you blocked someone because they are going to prove themselves Town.

Oh. I interpreted the original "mechanically provable role" as being proveable as townie but I see what you mean now.

Hmm.

Might unvote then

Idk. Not sure where I would go

[AvatarVecna]

Yup, I'm here. Here's my two cents:

When FC claimed that they were roleblocked and thus couldn't prove themselves, that seemed extremely suspicious. However, with Libro corroborating, I'm willing to believe it... for now.

I'm also a little bit miffed that FC would use his 1/game poison first night on someone whom was only suspected as scum, especially when Libro, at the time, didn't seem incredibly suspicious to me.

Also, Rogue in general seems like a hard class to prove: either you poison an ally, who can confirm they were poisoned, and then dies... or you poison someone else, in which case many kill-powers would suffice. Also, if FC doesn't get the poison back, then that's also an easy ruse.

Of course, that's assuming that PartyofRogues doesn't explicitly mentioned in the... killfeed? that they were poisoned, just that they died.

So... FoS on FC?

A quick look at the Roles list reveals AV, claiming credit for one kill, could be a fairly large number of roles-- Druid, Warlock, even Artificer or Rogue. Though I'm a bit suspicious as to why they're not claiming, unless they're doppelgänger, and they seem to be trying to give as little information as possible. Also, by claiming that they're not the fighter, AV conveniently removes themselves from the list of town-assured roles. Very suspicious.

I don't really have a read either way on Libro, yet. History has taught me that most of reads are a bit shaky anyhow.

So, let's put one more vote on AvatarVecna.

I didn't say I'm not the fighter.

And I think it's very interesting how many people are assuming they know who I killed. I know the kind of person that should know who I killed, and I know why they might insist they know I killed one or the other.

[Valmark]

Also, Rogue in general seems like a hard class to prove: either you poison an ally, who can confirm they were poisoned, and then dies... or you poison someone else, in which case many kill-powers would suffice. Also, if FC doesn't get the poison back, then that's also an easy ruse.

Of course, that's assuming that PartyofRogues doesn't explicitly mentioned in the... killfeed? that they were poisoned, just that they died.

So... FoS on FC?

A quick look at the Roles list reveals AV, claiming credit for one kill, could be a fairly large number of roles-- Druid, Warlock, even Artificer or Rogue. Though I'm a bit suspicious as to why they're not claiming, unless they're doppelgänger, and they seem to be trying to give as little information as possible. Also, by claiming that they're not the fighter, AV conveniently removes themselves from the list of town-assured roles. Very suspicious.

The poison kills you during the day if I'm not wrong, so that could only be the Rogue, regardless of who they target (unless the targeted dies during the night you mean?)

AV could be Barbarian, not Arteficer. The latter already died. And tecnically she said that she isn't claiming Fighter, not that she isn't... The difference isn't much, but it's there.

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Oh and she couldn't be Rogue since the victim wouldn't have died yet.

[AvatarVecna]

The poison kills you during the day if I'm not wrong, so that could only be the Rogue, regardless of who they target (unless the targeted dies during the night you mean?)

AV could be Barbarian, not Arteficer. The latter already died. And tecnically she said that she isn't claiming Fighter, not that she isn't... The difference isn't much, but it's there.

I am four parallel universes ahead of you.

[Valmark]

I am four parallel universes ahead of you.

...I'm sorry, I don't know the source of the quote >.> And googling it gives me a pretty creepy Mario, so not sure I want to.

[AvatarVecna]

...I'm sorry, I don't know the source of the quote >.> And googling it gives me a pretty creepy Mario, so not sure I want to.

The original source is either that mario thing, or a jojo reference (I don't know jojo, but it feels like something from jojo based on my meme knowledge). It's mostly like I pointed out the real meaning of that original post, and then you commented on it, but that was in fact the implication the whole time. It's just an extension of something like "ninja'd" or "im one step ahead of you", but more extreme.

[Valmark]

Oooh alright xD I was confused and when I saw Mario I went "Nope, not checking this out at 4:40 AM".

[Snowblaze]

Right, yay, I’m into the paranoid jumping-at-shadows phase.

Fun, fun, fun.

AV is... being even more cryptic and hard to read than normal, which... I don’t quite know what to make of that. I think I’m just settling on “they’re impossible to read, hopefully someone will kill them before I have to” (any town killers, this isn’t a request, if there are more suspicious people out there you can kill them).

Not exactly sure what problem Apogee has with my post about Valmark, but I think something like that would be kind of hard to fake for scum!me.

My paranoid tinfoil brain is toying with the idea of Fleeing Coward and Libro being scum partners, although I’m aware that’s... kind of unlikely.

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Public Claims

(We’ll probably need this sooner or later)
Fleeing Coward claims to be the Rogue and to have attempted to poison Libro.

Libro claims to be the Monk and to have roleblocked Fleeing Coward.

AvatarVecna claims to have killed either gac3 or rogue_alchemist.

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Libro 1 (Apogee1)
AvatarVecna 3 (Bunny of Faith, Valmark, MornShine)
MornShine 2 (Snowblaze, CaoimhinTheCape)
Valmark 2 (Libro, Aventine)
Posted without voting: AvatarVecna, Fleeing Coward
Yet to post: Unavenger

[Fleeing Coward]

I think mechanically proving myself as the Rogue would haved confirmed I was town as well since Doppleganger get weakened versions of the real role so by proving I can poison and kill night 1, I would have proven that I'm not a fake in my mind at least.

[Snowblaze]

I’m going to actually try trusting my instincts instead of kicking myself for not trusting them later on. Valmark.

Aventine raises a good point, I’m not inspired by any of his reasons for voting AV. And... I guess something just feels missing? It’s hard to put into words.

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May as well at least try to explain my suspicions. I just... don't feel like this is town!Valmark at all, and I know what town!Valmark looks like by now. I've repeatedly tunneled him, after all, but this just isn't the same.

Town!Valmark is... I guess you could say chaotic. He functions on instincts and gut reactions, he'll comment on anything and everything that catches his eye, he's not afraid of what people will think, he's not worried about little details like "consistency" and "sensible logic".

This Valmark isn't like that. Every move is justified, he makes perfect sense, objectively there's no reason to suspect him, but there's... like I said earlier, something missing, some kind of... some kind of spark, I suppose? It feels... kind of empty, as if he's just going through the motions.

Does that make sense? Can you see where I'm coming from? I hate feeling like this, I'm not normally an instinctive player, I function better with reads you can set out nicely and neatly and clarify and debate, not this half-formed mess I have at the moment...

...although my read on Valmark in Jellicle Ball was perfectly logical and sensible. And he was town then.

[Fleeing Coward]

How gutted would you be if he flips town Snowblaze?

[Snowblaze]

How gutted would you be if he flips town Snowblaze?

I’d probably just laugh, apologise and resolve not to trust my instincts in future. But this kind of instinct I think is actually reliable.

...maybe.

[Valmark]

May as well at least try to explain my suspicions. I just... don't feel like this is town!Valmark at all, and I know what town!Valmark looks like by now. I've repeatedly tunneled him, after all, but this just isn't the same.

Town!Valmark is... I guess you could say chaotic. He functions on instincts and gut reactions, he'll comment on anything and everything that catches his eye, he's not afraid of what people will think, he's not worried about little details like "consistency" and "sensible logic".

This Valmark isn't like that. Every move is justified, he makes perfect sense, objectively there's no reason to suspect him, but there's... like I said earlier, something missing, some kind of... some kind of spark, I suppose? It feels... kind of empty, as if he's just going through the motions.

Does that make sense? Can you see where I'm coming from? I hate feeling like this, I'm not normally an instinctive player, I function better with reads you can set out nicely and neatly and clarify and debate, not this half-formed mess I have at the moment...

...although my read on Valmark in Jellicle Ball was perfectly logical and sensible. And he was town then.

I actually blushed irl. Love you too Snow~

And yeah, makes sense, even if it's advocating my death.

How gutted would you be if he flips town Snowblaze?

I’d probably just laugh, apologise and resolve not to trust my instincts in future. But this kind of instinct I think is actually reliable.

...maybe.

*coff coff* Jellicle Town *coff coff*

To be fair, almost everybody thought I was either a Cultist or Mafia there. And I still don't understand why and still laugh so much at that.

Including me opening the death chat after flipping Town and finding Snowblaze saying "I'm so sorry Valmark" or something like that.

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Not exactly sure what problem Apogee has with my post about Valmark, but I think something like that would be kind of hard to fake for scum!me.

To be fair, until you made the explanation post, it was pretty easy.
"Hey, dunno about that guy, doesn't look good, but they've been behaving well so dunno, no commitment there" seems like a pretty good way to plant a scapegoat for when you lynch me and I turn up Town.

(Yeah I know these weren't your words, I'm parafrasing).

[Snowblaze]

Okay, now I really will feel bad if you flip town. But I can't choose who to lynch on the grounds of "how awful will I feel if I'm wrong".

And... yes, I was horribly wrong in Jellicle Ball, but I said I was going to try different methods of reading you and this is the result. (Also, in my defence, I was dead at the time, and you don't need to waste energy re-evaluating your reads when you're dead.)

[Unavenger]

Going to have limited access over the next few days I'm afraid. Sorry.

While I'm here, though, I'd quite like to make AvatarVecna actually commit to saying they're something rather than doing a slightly-unhelpful "Well I'm not not fighter, unless I'm not fighter" dance.

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Changing my vote back to Libro. I'm not quite convinced of the Valmark argument and while AV isn't being helpful I'd prefer to vote someone who was going to mess up someone saying they can prove themselves town.

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Libro 2 (Apogee1, CaoimhinTheCape)
AvatarVecna 4 (Bunny of Faith, Valmark, MornShine, Unavenger)
Valmark 3 (Libro, Aventine, Snowblaze)
Posted without voting: AvatarVecna, Fleeing Coward

[Valmark]

Changing my vote back to Libro. I'm not quite convinced of the Valmark argument and while AV isn't being helpful I'd prefer to vote someone who was going to mess up someone saying they can prove themseselves town.

Again, FC didn't say they'd prove themselves town. Only role- and since they weren't claiming Rogue back then, one couldn't even say that the Rogue power is hard to fake if a doppel has the weakened version (how would it even get weaker then a once-per-game kill? Change from a kill to something else?).

[CaoimhinTheCape]

Again, FC didn't say they'd prove themselves town. Only role- and since they weren't claiming Rogue back then, one couldn't even say that the Rogue power is hard to fake if a doppel has the weakened version (how would it even get weaker then a once-per-game kill? Change from a kill to something else?).

Understood - FC isn't necessarily town because they were rogue - it's more how Libro acted on what we knew Day 1. Going into the first night, all we knew was the below:

I'm too lazy to reach out to people this game but I will say that I have a mechanically provable role this game so I'll be cleared tomorrow if the dopplegangers don't kill me first.

and the first reaction is "I'm gonna stop that."



Looking back at the quote, I definitely read it as proven town as opposed to proving my role. I'll leave my vote there for now but I'll probably change before end of day.

[Fleeing Coward]

Again, FC didn't say they'd prove themselves town. Only role- and since they weren't claiming Rogue back then, one couldn't even say that the Rogue power is hard to fake if a doppel has the weakened version (how would it even get weaker then a once-per-game kill? Change from a kill to something else?).

There's plenty of ways to make it weaker - make the poison fake, make it so the person that gets poisoned comes back to life after 1 day, make it limited to only been able to used on either even nights or odd nights, make it only usable on another Doppleganger so that it's only there as a sacrifice play, etc.

I'm not saying there's no chance of Libro been a Doppleganger but he is one of three people in this game that I do believe would role block me night 1 if they're town.

[Valmark]

Understood - FC isn't necessarily town because they were rogue - it's more how Libro acted on what we knew Day 1. Going into the first night, all we knew was the below:



and the first reaction is "I'm gonna stop that."



Looking back at the quote, I definitely read it as proven town as opposed to proving my role. I'll leave my vote there for now but I'll probably change before end of day.

Well, if it's the behavior then alright. It looked like you were acting on a wrong assumption when you first said that >.>