afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Fable Wright]

I would really like to stress, yet again, that this is a very poor way of looking at it. Joining with your deity makes you one with that deity's consciousness - you become part of the gestalt identity and will that drives the divinity, and your identity remains "you," within the god. You're not getting eaten, you're literally becoming your deity.

Well, sure. An Athar would see it differently, however, and horror is all a matter of perspective.

Call of Cthulhu to us is cosmic horror story about our insignificance in the face of godly powers.
Call of Cthulhu to Cthulhu is a story about how his alarm clock went off, and when he was going to get up a weird metal fish flung itself at his head and he was not about to call over the bosses for an inspection with a migraine like that, no sir.

...Also I'm coming off the tails of a campaign where the central event was a bunch of mortal wizards who rebelled against the gods at the concept of being god food. It wasn't Great Wheel, but that was how my GM spun it, so there's some cross-contamination of thoughts going on.

[Eldan]

I mean, I'd say the story of Cthulhu is that of the last survivor of a doomed race, his entire species killed off in a brutal interplanetary war, the laws of the cosmos literally changing to make life impossible for his kind, who surveys the last, war-ruined city of his former empire, who magically puts himself into an eternal magical sleep, because he just can't deal with it all anymore.

It's a tragedy, is what I'm saying, from his perspective.

Even when he wakes up, hoping that perhas someone else survived and is calling to him, it's a bunch of primitive monkeys who tripped his magic by accident and then try to kill him.

[enderlord99]

I mean, I'd say the story of Cthulhu is that of the last survivor of a doomed race, his entire species killed off in a brutal interplanetary war, the laws of the cosmos literally changing to make life impossible for his kind, who surveys the last, war-ruined city of his former empire, who magically puts himself into an eternal magical sleep, because he just can't deal with it all anymore.

It's a tragedy, is what I'm saying, from his perspective.

Even when he wakes up, hoping that perhas someone else survived and is calling to him, it's a bunch of primitive monkeys who tripped his magic by accident and then try to kill him.

That sounds about right. After all, the mythos is bleak, not just bleak-for-humans.

[afroakuma]

Are there any non-Evil gods of beggars/begging as a portfolio? Preferably setting neutral, or Greyhawk based.

Well how about that, I found one. Super obscure, but arguably pretty setting neutral. For context, in the original D&D era, Judges' Guild was licensed to produce official D&D material. One of their publications carrying this seal was a little book named Unknown Gods, which featured extremely minor gods associated with their own in-house setting, the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Their license eventually expired, but the book is still official material, so it's in bounds with all of its bizarre and silly inhabitants. One of the least bizarre and silly is Sashu, God of Justice and Blind Beggars.

Sashu, LN Demipower of Mechanus
God of Justice, God of Blind Beggars
Portfolio The blind, the indigent, justice for the poor, social order
Realm Mechanus/Court of the Sightless
Symbol Scales
Domains City, Community, Darkness, Inquisition, Law, Retribution
Favored Weapon Longsword

Not much is known about Sashu, but some among the indigent who suffer indignities in the shadows and alleys of prosperous cities know his name, calling on him to bring them justice for the worst slights against them and restore them where they have been displaced from lives of diligence and success due to crimes, deceit, and other such skulduggery. He is known to be deeply opposed to chaos and to believe in social order and karma.

[Thurbane]

Well how about that, I found one. Super obscure, but arguably pretty setting neutral. For context, in the original D&D era, Judges' Guild was licensed to produce official D&D material. One of their publications carrying this seal was a little book named Unknown Gods, which featured extremely minor gods associated with their own in-house setting, the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Their license eventually expired, but the book is still official material, so it's in bounds with all of its bizarre and silly inhabitants. One of the least bizarre and silly is Sashu, God of Justice and Blind Beggars.

Sashu, LN Demipower of Mechanus
God of Justice, God of Blind Beggars
Portfolio The blind, the indigent, justice for the poor, social order
Realm Mechanus/Court of the Sightless
Symbol Scales
Domains City, Community, Darkness, Inquisition, Law, Retribution
Favored Weapon Longsword

Not much is known about Sashu, but some among the indigent who suffer indignities in the shadows and alleys of prosperous cities know his name, calling on him to bring them justice for the worst slights against them and restore them where they have been displaced from lives of diligence and success due to crimes, deceit, and other such skulduggery. He is known to be deeply opposed to chaos and to believe in social order and karma.

That is super-obscure, but I like it!

I used to have a couple of Judges Guild supplements back in the day, but not this one.

[Bartmanhomer]

Is Io the Dragon Deity a good father to his children?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Also? Fourth-wall-aware characters would be very aware that their universe exists only so long as the GM runs it. The moment the GM is bored, the universe just ends. More than that, when their adventures are concluded, when they would retire to become legends, their world dies with them. No afterlife. No legacy. Just fleeting recollections by higher dimensional beings, until those, too, fade in time.

You could absolutely do Lovecraftian horror in D&D.

You certainly can, yes, but what I was getting at was that a lot of people think that doing so is as simple as just statting up Chulthu & Friends and a bunch of Mythos critters, throwing them in alongside all the existing gods and monsters, and expecting their D&D campaign to turn out like a Call of Cthulhu one, and when people ask "Do/can the Mythos gods exist in D&D?" they're often implicitly assuming that all of the tone and thematics and such of the Lovecraftian side of things can just be squished into the D&D metasetting with no issue. If you want Lovecraftian D&D, you have to pick the setting, main plot, Big Bad, character concepts, and similar very carefully to support the right tone and playstyle, and full-on Planescape definitely wouldn't be my first, second, or tenth choice of setting for such a game.

It's funny you mention the fourth-wall-breaking approach, though, since that's sort of how I manage to lend a horror (or at least horror-adjacent) theme to a previous campaign's Big Bad. It was a beast of primordial chaos from back before the Great Wheel had settled into its current form who hated the strictures of reality and wanted to return the multiverse to its primordial state, and I represented the creeping advance of its influence on reality by actually "rolling back" different aspects of the rules to previous-edition states. The characters only knew that reality was acting wonky and everything from physics to their memories were being impacted, but the players knew that, say, the "Race" category had just ticked over from 3e to 2e-with-Player-Options so any races that existed in 3e but not 2e had vanished without a trace for no discernible-in-game reason and if the "Items" category ticked over from 1e to OD&D then the artifacts they were hoping to use to fix things would be irrevocably changed, and that gave the whole scenario an aura of horror much more effectively than throwing any number of tentacled non-Euclidean whatsits at them.

[Fable Wright]

You certainly can, yes, but what I was getting at was that a lot of people think that doing so is as simple as just statting up Chulthu & Friends and a bunch of Mythos critters, throwing them in alongside all the existing gods and monsters, and expecting their D&D campaign to turn out like a Call of Cthulhu one, and when people ask "Do/can the Mythos gods exist in D&D?" they're often implicitly assuming that all of the tone and thematics and such of the Lovecraftian side of things can just be squished into the D&D metasetting with no issue. If you want Lovecraftian D&D, you have to pick the setting, main plot, Big Bad, character concepts, and similar very carefully to support the right tone and playstyle, and full-on Planescape definitely wouldn't be my first, second, or tenth choice of setting for such a game.

Definite agreement. It can work if you do Cthulhu-as-Pandorym, blocking extraplanar interference as a deity-devouring presence is unleashed; or Shub-Niggurath-as-Ragnorra, or Azathoth-as-DM, or Yog-Sothoth as the Edition Barrier. Plug and play would never work in arguably any tabletop game, I'd argue—a key idea of all horror, not just Lovecraftian horror, is the uncanny. Something familiar changing to become unfamiliar-but-recognizable. Dogs acting hostile for no discernible reason happens in movies, but in game mechanics changing—borrowing rules from other systems, the Elder Evils' Signs changing setting expectations, or things that don't follow setting expectations like a Vancian spell that you prepare and can't un-prepare, that prepares itself each day at dawn and you can't recover the slot back as it slowly begins infecting other preparations—those are the best way to add in Mythos-style horror that the fundamental assumptions of reality can't be trusted.

And yeah, just statting up the Old Ones as gods just like any other really doesn't have them come across as transgressive to the nature of reality.

This is a long-winded way of saying that you should be able to stat up plug-and-play mythos critters that will give your game an uncanny feeling. Hounds of Tindalos that appear whenever your miniature touches a corner of the map's 5ft square overlays; Mi-Go who surgically swap stats like Int and Str; or Shoggoths that can copy any feat, spell, or defense they see in action. D&D hasn't done that, but even with the default metaphysics, the feel should be capturable. (They haven't, but I disagree with your assertion that it can't be done.)

[Bohandas]

or things that don't follow setting expectations like a Vancian spell that you prepare and can't un-prepare

Wasn't that the premise of the first two Discworld books?

[Batcathat]

Wasn't that the premise of the first two Discworld books?

It does sound pretty close. Considering that the early Discworld books was a lot of straight up parody, it wouldn't surprise me if it was intentional.

[Eldan]

Early discworld had Vancian magic, yeah. There's Rincewind, of Course, but the University Faculty even discuss which spells each of them has prepared in an emergency, with quite D&D-esque names like Maxwell's Impressive Separator and Atavarr's Personal Gravitational Upset.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This is a long-winded way of saying that you should be able to stat up plug-and-play mythos critters that will give your game an uncanny feeling. Hounds of Tindalos that appear whenever your miniature touches a corner of the map's 5ft square overlays; Mi-Go who surgically swap stats like Int and Str; or Shoggoths that can copy any feat, spell, or defense they see in action. D&D hasn't done that, but even with the default metaphysics, the feel should be capturable. (They haven't, but I disagree with your assertion that it can't be done.)

It's not that I think individual critters can't be brought over in at least a vaguely recognizable form and retain at least some of the same feel, rather that the individual creatures don't "carry" the whole Lovecraftian thing with them, if that makes sense.

Like, a while back a friend of mine who's really into the Mythos was DMing a high-level game and dropped a Shoggoth in at one point, expecting the party to be all "Alas, a Shoggoth, I can feel my mind breaking under the strain of its squamous form!" and all that...but the PCs basically treated it as just another monster (albeit a puzzle monster who "broke the rules" in various ways), figured out how to kill it, and moved on. When he asked them why they didn't get any horror vibes, their response was essentially that their characters were high-level, they'd Seen Some ****, Shoggoths are basically scaled-down Hagunemnon with a few quirks mechanically speaking, they'd been able to easily cure or prevent things like insanity for several levels now, and they considered the Illithids they'd dealt with a few levels before to be a lot more horrifying than the Shoggoth in any case.

Other critters can have a similar "been there done that" vibe; Hounds of Tindalos are essentially Inevitables (strange-looking creatures who go after mortals who muck with natural laws) in terms of story role, for instance. Yes, statted-up Mythos monsters will be uncanny and provide a nice change of pace if a DM usually uses more straightforward monsters, but D&D has enough Lovecraftian DNA that merely introducing a Mythos monster doesn't really move the needle much. I'd say with most groups you'd really need to pull a Ravenloft (yank the party into a place where they can't escape, lots of things work differently, and the local gods are actively screwing with them) to get the full effect, and even then it's not the monsters that are doing the heavy lifting there.

Early discworld had Vancian magic, yeah. There's Rincewind, of Course, but the University Faculty even discuss which spells each of them has prepared in an emergency, with quite D&D-esque names like Maxwell's Impressive Separator and Atavarr's Personal Gravitational Upset.

And of course there's the fact that octarine being an eighth color specifically for magic that only wizards can see calls back to detect magic and similar spells and the fact that D&D has eight schools of magic. Though Discworld really draws more on original-Dying-Earth-flavor Vancian than the D&D version, with pseudo-sapient spells, every single spell having a grandiose name after its creator, and powerful wizards only being able to prepare a handful at a time.

[Bohandas]

Like, a while back a friend of mine who's really into the Mythos was DMing a high-level game and dropped a Shoggoth in at one point, expecting the party to be all "Alas, a Shoggoth, I can feel my mind breaking under the strain of its squamous form!" and all that...but the PCs basically treated it as just another monster (albeit a puzzle monster who "broke the rules" in various ways), figured out how to kill it, and moved on. When he asked them why they didn't get any horror vibes, their response was essentially that their characters were high-level, they'd Seen Some ****, Shoggoths are basically scaled-down Hagunemnon with a few quirks mechanically speaking, they'd been able to easily cure or prevent things like insanity for several levels now, and they considered the Illithids they'd dealt with a few levels before to be a lot more horrifying than the Shoggoth in any case.

Which is consistent with Lovecraft. The mythos' equivalent of a high level character would be the wizard Randolph Carter, who's pretty chill with all the weird stuff that happens to him, including one of his friends becoming undead, and having conversations with two of the outer gods

[Eldan]

Yeah. If you want the proper Lovecraft experience, your party would be three L2 experts who manage to defeat a Monster only because they have a magic book that allows them to use an invocation to banish it.

A better representation of a mid-high Level D&D character encountering the Mythos is Conan, or Kull of Atlantis. Howard was a friend of Lovecraft's, and their respective stories share a lot of Elements. How does Conan deal with a Mythos creature? Kills it.

(Fun fact: there's a Story that Howard and Lovecraft co-wrote with some other of their Friends. You can really tell the Lovecraft parts, the Howard parts and the parts written by someone else. Guy is camping in the forest, hears something weird. Writer changes. It's an Alien with a magic crystal that exchanges his mind with that of an Alien on another planet. He Wakes up and is horrified. Writer changes. Then, because his human spirit can not be broken even when trapped into an alien body, he falls into a berserker rage and starts killing aliens until they give up and make him their ruler.)

[ShurikVch]

How long do gray-elves live?

I came across a line in the flavor text for the Achaierai in the Planes of Law monstrous supplement, that mentions that the gray elf Fionara Silverbane began cataloging the birds of the law aligned planes "when she was only 400 years old" (emphasis mine). That implies that gray elves must live much longer than high elves, as high elves only live about 552 years on average

Pre-3e elves lived longer - that might be it:

What's the...
[checking the books]
Oh come on!..
Why, I'm asking: why they decided to change that?!
That's so dumb: the elves in 3E are supposed to be the very same elves as in 2E...
(And now Yvonnel Baenre with her 2042 years of life - and death from Bruenor Battlehammer - looks even more out of place...)

The fun thing about Hastur is that in the original story he's arguably a hallucination. If even that. He might also just be a character in a play.

To quote the Wikipedia article:

It is unclear from this quote if Lovecraft's Hastur is a person, a place, an object (such as the Yellow Sign), or a deity. This ambiguity is recurrent in Lovecraft's descriptions of mythic entities.

...after stumbling queerly upon the hellish and forbidden book of horrors the two learn, among other hideous things which no sane mortal should know, that this talisman is indeed the nameless Yellow Sign handed down from the accursed cult of Hastur—from primordial Carcosa, whereof the volume treats...

H. P. Lovecraft, 1926–27, revised 1933

D&D didn't have the license to the Cthulhu mythos, which is why there are two printings of the 1E Deities & Demigods - one with the Cthulhu mythos, the other without. Given that it was unlicensed, afrocanon omits it from the multiverse.

They already used the King in Yellow
Then - why not the Crawling Chaos, or the Key and the Gate?

There's a significant difference between the D&D setup in which some monsters have mind-affecting abilities that inflict fear, insanity, and such but otherwise running into anything from aboleths and balors to yeth hounds and zodars is no biggie, and the Lovecraft setup in which the mere sight or knowledge of things like non-Euclidean critters (At the Mountains of Madness) or a sketchy family history (The Rats in the Walls) and such can drive one to terror, despair, or madness. Confront Francis Wayland Thurston or Briden with the existence of Cthulhu and he falls into an existential despair from which he may never recover, confront most D&D PCs with the existence of Cthulhu and they start shopping for +1 aberration-bane vorpal longswords.

1) D&D adventurers are "cream of the crop", "best of the best", "chosen ones", etc; Lovecraftian protagonists are mostly random people; see the difference!..
2) Vanilla D&D adventure lacks the Sanity rules. Enforce it - and look how brave are your vaunted adventurers would be
Note: D&D inhabitants are completely lacking the materialistic worldview which can be shattered by eldritch revelations, thus - naturally less susceptible to horrors of otherworldly realities
Also, Dunwich Horror was banished, and Cthulhu - boat-rammed; thus - Lovecraftian protagonists aren't that bad...

You missed the point a bit on this one. All those bad things happening are the result of people encountering specific creatures or locations that do terrible things to them, but in the Mythos merely the knowledge that something nasty is out there somewhere is enough to mess with their minds, whether it's "there exist non-human monsters who might destroy humanity" (Dagon), "the Necronomicon is actually true" (At the Mountains of Madness) or whatever.

Not always.
Say, The Music of Erich Zann: while the protagonist was highly disturbed by the events in the story, he don't gone mad from it
Also, see the aforementioned victories over eldritch beings

Yes really.

For every terrible cataclysm that befalls a given setting (and there are many, since D&D is by nature post-apocalyptic), dozens of schemes to set off undead apocalypses, summon evil gods to the Material Plane, merge worlds with the Abyss, flood the world and lead to an abolethic empire, and so forth are averted all the time; every adventure canonically assumes the adventures win, after all, and you can't exactly keep adventuring in a world for long if it's destroyed.

Do you understand your reasoning is the blatant survivorship bias?
For all the times adventurers heroically triumphed over impossible odds, how many times Evil came out on top offscreen?
In the Eredane (Midnight Campaign Setting), Sauron expy blocked the access in- and out- of material plane, which not just impeded Conjuration spells, but even prevented divine acts (except his own) - and not just direct interventions, but even simple divine magic!
"Mind Lords of Talaron" article tells us about how young and hopeful kinda-humans found the path from their world and encountered their first otherworldly folk. Unfortunately for Talaron, it were illithids. Initially peaceful contact ended in a full blown war. Talaron won and kicked invaders out. But Mind Flayers, being sore losers, in reprisal killed their sun. So much for victory of Good!..
Lolth, canonically, have the whole worlds ensnared in her Demonweb Pits...

More than that, though, all of those are "local" cataclysms that affect at most one Prime world and generally target a continent or less, leaving the rest of the planet, the crystal sphere, and the Material Plane itself completely unaffected

Well, firstly: actually, many of aforementioned were either sphere-wide events, or have aftermath of unknown magnitude
And secondly: even if yes - so what? It's not like we need destruction of the whole world to be afraid: destruction of your home is pretty enough; of your hometown(/village/city/.../whatever) - more than enough; country(/state) - well beyond the mere "enough"; the whole world - just plane insane; more than just a world - inconceivable

even Pandorym getting loose isn't a "the Material Plane explodes" kind of threat, more of a "Pandorym will get around to muching on your Prime world one of these millennia" kind of threat.

Pretty bold claim - considering Pandorym have no stats
Are you sure you didn't confused it with Atropus?

And without one of those cataclysms going off, the Great Wheel doesn't have a built-in or prophesied end and can keep on going forever.

But it have!..
The "Age of Worms" is the best-known (but, likely, isn't the only) example

Contrast that with the Mythos, where there are a ton of "game over" scenarios that affect a whole world or more and are definitely going to happen at some point, from "Cthulhu wakes and everyone goes nuts" to "Azathoth wakes and the multiverse evaporates," and the entire point is that those things cannot be stopped by the merely human and totally cosmically helpless protagonists, only averted or delayed by stopping fellow humans who are trying to bring them about.

OK!
Say, Tharizdun gone for a "very enthusiastic walk"
Who would stop him?
Adventurers?!.

Because the ineffable statless beings fundamental to the Great Wheel already exist and they can't stand competition?

Because the Far Realm is outside the Wheel, and non-local gods have no power there?

Outside of the context of the Mythos, the various Lovecraftian entities lose a lot of their unique identity and fearsomeness that makes people want to use them in games. Lovecraft!Nyarlathotep is scary because he's a nigh-omnipotent (compared to humanity) incarnate god who walks the Earth and brings madness and destruction; D&D!Nyarlathotep can only exist on a Prime world where the Divine Compact and local overgod allow gods to send avatars or manifestations to that world, in which case ol' Nyarly is just one divine proxy among others and can't get away with nearly as much before an adventuring party shows up to slay his cult and banish him. And so on.

D&D!Nyarlathotep: any spell at will as a free action!
What, not scary enough? OK, Rejuvenation (like Ghost, but 100% effective, and no "set right whatever prevents" clause)
Still not scary enough? Well, it have 10 avatars - which have all the capabilities of original (except for the "Rejuvenation" and "Avatar")

You'll note that every single one of those beings is not only largely "local" in power and influence but actively trapped and/or bound: the Red Death only exists on its own world; the Dark Powers only have power in Ravenloft, even if their reach can extend beyond it to a limited degree; the Lady of Pain can reach far beyond Sigil but is, as far as we know, trapped in the Cage; and Tharizdun is stuck in the Demiplane of Imprisonment.

In the Mythos the Great Old Ones are a supreme unstoppable force, in Planescape the gods defeated Tharizdun and stuck him in timeout. If that doesn't nicely convey the tonal and thematic differences between Planescape and the Mythos, I don't know what does.

Some of Mythos entities are imprisoned too: like Avatar of Nyarlathotep in "The Haunter of the Dark", or Cthulhu - for the most obvious example...

[Efrate]

The biggest difference is the abilities a typical dnd character has vastly outstrips anything a protagonist in a cthulhu mythos has. Reshaping reality on a whim is something high level casters just do. A high level fighter could get rammed by a boat and brush it off. Your abilities are more in line with the beings of the mythos than with those who oppose them.

Most adventures are pcs trying to stop horrific things or people from doing some destructive or world changing event. Just swap Ashardalon for Cthulhu or the like and it plays out almost identically. Mind blank prebuff over energy immunity. Half illithid iber half dragon etc.

[Batcathat]

The biggest difference is the abilities a typical dnd character has vastly outstrips anything a protagonist in a cthulhu mythos has. Reshaping reality on a whim is something high level casters just do. A high level fighter could get rammed by a boat and brush it off. Your abilities are more in line with the beings of the mythos than with those who oppose them.

Suddenly I feel the urge to run a game where the PCs are eldritch horrors driving NPCs mad with their unknowable actions... Might be kinda fun with the right group.

[Efrate]

Typing that I thought the same thing. Or flip it. E6 game vs. normal high level players. Captures the feel better.

[Batcathat]

Typing that I thought the same thing. Or flip it. E6 game vs. normal high level players. Captures the feel better.

Why not both? First have the players wreck havoc on some poor mortals and then (Next session? Next campaign?) have them as their former characters' latest victims. I'm sure there's some sort of moral in that.

[Bohandas]

Suddenly I feel the urge to run a game where the PCs are eldritch horrors driving NPCs mad with their unknowable actions... Might be kinda fun with the right group.

Isn't that basically the city of Greyhawk's backstory? Like it's golden age was supposedly nigh unlivable because it was powered by the epic magicial powera of the city's deranged former-adventurer-turned-mayor-turned-god-emperor Zagyg Yragerne, and for every great triumph of that magic there would also be an incident where people would get home one day and discover that their neighborhood was now made of elemental fire or something and was no longer liveable

[afroakuma]

What would be a good set of powers for a Thrall of Obox-ob? How about good Obox-ob monsters you'd find on Zionyn?

The only other mention of this kind of thing I could find was that EttDP's Aspect of Obox-ob had a weapon made from a stinger of an extinct race of obyriths.

Spoiler: Thrall of Obox-ob

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Thrall of Obox-ob

Deep in the darkest and most wretched depths of the Abyss writhes the deposed Prince of Demons, Obox-ob. Once the mightiest of all demonkind, he was thrown down in an ambush by the Queen of Chaos, nearly destroyed by the attack, reduced to being Demon Prince of Vermin, a shadow of his former might. Obox-ob remembers, however, and so does the multiverse, which still dreads the nightmarish and haunting truth of the profound horror that this once-mighty obyrith represents.

While he has been reduced to the meanest obscurity, ancient ruins and esoteric texts still mention his name and his forgotten power. Though only the most wretched and insane would seek to know more about this being, let alone strike a covenant with him, there are always those few truly depraved souls willing to debase themselves in the name of chaos and evil, abandoning society to serve as the nightmarish feeler of Obox-ob on the Prime Material Plane. Those who profane their own mind and body in service to the Demon Prince of Vermin are "rewarded" with power over crawling things, which live as both symbiote and infestation within their flesh, forever altering them in ways that will exile them from the lives they once led.

Level	BAB	Fort	Ref	Will	Special	Spellcasting/Other
1st	+0	+2	+0	+0	Infestation, swarm immunity	-
2nd	+1	+3	+0	+0	Verminbond	+1 level of existing class
3rd	+2	+3	+1	+1	Power over vermin, Willing Deformity	+1 level of existing class
4th	+3	+4	+1	+1	Improved verminbond	+1 level of existing class
5th	+3	+4	+1	+1	Summon ekolid, unknowable horror	+1 level of existing class
6th	+4	+5	+2	+2	Deformity (parasite), greater verminbond	+1 level of existing class
7th	+5	+5	+2	+2	Shriek of Zionyn, swarm hive	+1 level of existing class
8th	+6	+6	+2	+2	Superior verminbond	+1 level of existing class
9th	+6	+6	+3	+3	Profound degradation	+1 level of existing class
10th	+7	+7	+3	+3	Gift of Obox-ob, living nightmare	+1 level of existing class

Requirements
To become a thrall of Obox-ob, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria:

Alignment Chaotic evil
Skills Disguise 4 ranks, Intimidate 8 ranks or Psicraft 8 ranks or Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats Thrall to Demon plus one of: Vermin Companion^ECS, Verminfriend^BoVD, Verminous Graft^DR336
Special Must sacrifice a member of your own race to Obox-ob by paralyzing them with vermin poison and letting a swarm of vermin feed on them until death, then allow the swarm to feast on you until you are at 0 hp or below. This ritual must take place in an area that is desecrated, unhallowed, or otherwise heavily tainted with the power of darkness. This ritual permanently damages the body of the thrall in some way, resulting in a -2 adjustment to the ability score of their choice, which can only be removed if the thrall of Obox-ob renounces her Abyssal patron and receives restoration, heal, and atonement; wish or miracle will also accomplish this. Doing so immediately revokes all of the class features of this class, which can never again be taken - Obox-ob's second embrace will result in certain death, for he does not forgive any slight.

Hit Die d8
Class Skills The thrall of Obox-ob's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency The thrall of Obox-ob gains no proficiency with any kind of weapon, armor, or shield.

Spellcasting/Other Obox-ob accepts thralls from many backgrounds, as long as they are willing to undergo deformity and infestation and spread darkness and chaos in his name. As the powers he confers through his corrupting touch require no training to develop, his thralls are fit to continue mastering some of the talents they possessed prior to making covenant with the Demon Prince of Vermin. At levels 2 through 10, any of the following class features possessed by the thrall may be progressed as though taking an additional level in that class. If an additional level would not result in progression of that ability, then nothing is gained.

Spoiler: Class Features

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Effective manifester class level, for manifesting classes (e.g. a 5th level psion/2nd level thrall of Obox-ob manifests powers as a 6th level manifester)
Effective spellcasting class level, for spellcasting classes (e.g. a 9th level wizard/3rd level thrall of Obox-ob casts spells as an 11th level wizard)
Effective soulbinding class level, for soulbinding classes (e.g. an 8th level binder/8th level thrall of Obox-ob binds vestiges and uses vestige abilities as a 15th level binder)
Effective shadow magic class level, for classes that wield mysteries (e.g. a 10th level shadowcaster/4th level thrall of Obox-ob wields mysteries as a 13th level shadowcaster)
Effective martial initiator class level, for classes that initiate maneuvers (e.g. a 10th level swordsage/5th level thrall of Obox-ob initiates maneuvers as a 14th level swordsage)
Effective meldshaper class level, for classes that shape soulmelds (e.g. a 7th level soulborn/6th level thrall of Obox-ob shapes soulmelds as a 12th level soulborn)
Ineffective truenaming class level, for classes that suck utter truenames (e.g. a 20th level truenamer/10th level thrall of Obox-ob still really sucks)

Powers known and power points for manifesting classes, unless noted below
Spells known and spell slots for spellcasting classes, unless noted below
Maneuvers known, maneuvers readied, and stances known for initiating classes, unless noted below
Soulmelds, essentia, maximum chakra binds, and open chakras for meldshaping classes, unless noted below

Artificer infusions
Barbarian DR and rage per day, battle ecstasy per day, resilient rage per day, berserker strength, mountain rage, halfling rage
Battle dancer bonus speed, unarmed strike damage, and AC bonus
Binder power augmentation, maximum vestige level, and number of simultaneous vestiges bound
Divine mind psychic aura size, mantles (must be chosen from Chaos, Consumption, Corruption and Madness, Destruction, Evil, or Pain and Suffering)
Dragonfire adept breath weapon and invocations/invocations known
Dragon shaman draconic aura (not auras known) and breath weapon
Duskblade arcane channeling and spellcasting
Factotum inspiration points and arcane dilettante
Fighter bonus feats, feats/abilities from alternate class features in Dragon 310, thane feats, thug feats, elusive attack
Hexblade curse and spellcasting
Lurk augment, powers known, power points, psionic sneak attack
Marshal major aura (not auras known) and adrenaline boost or grant move action
Monk flailing strike, unarmed strike damage, AC bonus, and ki abilities^{Chaos monk variant from DR335, ex-monks cannot advance monk class features}
Mountebank deceptive attack
Ninja sudden strike and AC bonus
Paladin smite good, contagion/cause disease, and spellcasting
Psychic warrior power points, powers known, and bonus feats
Ranger favored enemy and spellcasting
Rogue sneak attack
Samurai honestly keep everything, either version, you've still made a terrible mistake and deserve what you get
Savant choose any two of: arcane lore/spellcasting, divine lore/spellcasting, sneak attack, skill assistance, talent lore.
Scout skirmish, sniper shot, and battle fortitude
Shadowcaster mysteries, bonus fundamentals, and sustaining shadow
Soulborn smite opposition (lawful good), soulmelds, essentia, maximum chakra binds, and open chakras
Soulknife psychic strike, mind blade, mind blade enhancement
Spellthief steal spell and spellcasting
Swashbuckler grace and dodge bonus
Truenamer see samurai... or a psychiatrist regarding your self-destructive tendencies
Warlock eldritch blast and invocations/invocations known
Wilder wild surge, power points, powers known

Infestation (Su) The ritual that forges a thrall's covenant with the Demon Prince of Vermin results in her body becoming riddled with countless Fine vermin - spiders, centipedes, scorpions, beetles, worms - that gradually deform her flesh in ways that ordinary society finds horrifying. Pustules, scabies, rashes, pockmarks, suppurating holes... these are only the beginning, as the touch of Obox-ob poisons not just the mind and soul but every part of the body. When dealing with non-evil creatures, a thrall of Obox-ob takes a penalty to Charisma-based skill checks to influence such creatures equal to her thrall of Obox-ob class level.

The infestation does not come without its benefits - the countless vermin crawl over flesh, coating it with their secretions, covering vulnerable areas, and leaving shed chitin strewn throughout the thrall's body. The thrall of Obox-ob gains 2 hp per hit die. Furthermore, the thrall's natural armor increases by 2 permanently unless she already possesses a chitinous exterior or exoskeleton, and the save DC of the distraction ability of vermin within 60 ft. of her increases to DC 10 + ½ her level + the better of the thrall's Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier, provided it was lower than this value.

Swarm Immunity (Ex) Swarms no longer meaningfully bother the thrall of Obox-ob, who already hosts an entire swarm of vermin within her body. A thrall of Obox-ob is immune to the physical damage of a swarm's attack and the swarm's distraction ability. A swarm that can deal non-physical damage (for instance, fire, cold, electric etc.) or which can otherwise cause harm without distracting or physically attacking the thrall of Obox-ob may still cause the thrall to suffer those effects.

Willing Deformity A thrall of Obox-ob becomes horribly deformed as a result of the dark covenant with the Demon Prince of Vermin. At 3rd level, she gains Willing Deformity^BoVD;HoH as a bonus feat as the degradation of her body begins to become overly apparent. A thrall who already possesses this feat may choose any of the following as a bonus feat instead: Abominable Form^EE, Deformity (clawed hands)^BoVD, Deformity (eyes)^EE, Deformity (face)^EE, Deformity (gaunt)^EE, Deformity (madness)^EE, Deformity (parasite)^EE, Deformity (skin)^HoH.

Verminbond (Su) A thrall of Obox-ob has in some way formed a bond with vermin via one of three feats - Vermin Companion, Verminfriend, or Verminous Graft. The abilities granted by these feats improve as the thrall of Obox-ob advances in level. If the thrall of Obox-ob possesses more than one of these feats, she gains all of the benefits linked to those feats which she possesses.

Vermin Companion

Spoiler

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Level	Benefit
2nd	Gain the benefits of Companion SpellbondPHB2 with your vermin companion
4th	Gain the benefits of Natural BondCAdv with your vermin companion
6th	Vermin companion gains bonus feat*
8th	Fiendish vermin companion

* Bonus feats are selected from Ability Focus, Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Combat Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Skill Focus, Stealthy, Weapon Focus.

Verminfriend

Spoiler

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Level	Benefit
2nd	DC 19, applies to verminlike magical beasts, will not attack allies
4th	DC 18, applies to verminlike aberrations, will become indifferent
6th	DC 17, applies to verminlike outsiders, will become friendly
8th	DC 16, applies to verminlike creatures, will become helpful

Verminous Graft

Spoiler

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Level	Benefit
2nd	2d6+Int damage, weaponized
4th	3d6+Int damage, +Int damage at the start of victim's next turn, weaponized
6th	4d6+Int damage, +Int damage at the start of victim's next turn, ranged touch 30 ft., weaponized
8th	5d6+Int damage, +Int damage at the start of victim's next turn, ranged touch 60 ft., weaponized

Weaponized (Ex) The verminous graft may be used to make iterative attacks. When used as part of a full attack, it employs its base damage of 1d6 + the thrall of Obox-ob's Intelligence modifier rather than the enhanced damage from the table, which still applies in any other circumstance.

Power Over Vermin (Sp) At 3rd level, a thrall of Obox-ob is endowed with Abyssal magic emanating from her vile patron, which she can wield to command and manipulate vermin. These spell-like abilities can be used at her discretion, limited only by her reserve of vile power. The thrall of Obox-ob chooses Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, and adds the bonus from that ability score to her thrall of Obox-ob level to determine her daily reserve of vile power; once chosen, this cannot be changed. Vile power can be expended at the following costs on the following spell-like abilities, cast at the thrall's character level:

Spoiler: Vile Power

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1 point:
align weapon^SC (chaotic or evil only), calm vermin (as calm animals), charm vermin (as charm animals), decomposition^SC, detect vermin (as detect animals or plants), enrage vermin (as enrage animal^SC), healing sting^SC, hold vermin (as hold animal), horrible taste^SC, magic fang (self or vermin only), speak with vermin (as speak with animals), spider climb, spider hand^BoVD, vermin messenger (as animal messenger), vermin trance (as animal trance)

2 points:
armored vermin^DotU, blight, chitinskin (self or vermin only, also grants DR 5/bludgeoning), contagion, dominate vermin^DotU, giant vermin, greater magic fang (self or vermin only), infestation of maggots^SC, jagged tooth^SC (self or vermin only), poison, prickling torment^CM, repel vermin, summon swarm (spiders only), wall of vermin^CS, web

4 points:
awaken vermin (as awaken but vermin only and 2d6+1 Intelligence), crawling darkness^SC, doom scarabs^PHB2, insect plague, mass contagion^SC, prying eyes

8 points:
creeping doom, greater prying eyes, pestilence^BoVD, wall of maggots^DR300

Any abilities based on spells that would normally exclusively affect or regard animals instead affect only vermin, and not animals. Any abilities based on spells with the mind-affecting descriptor bypass the Mindless ability of vermin, but have no effect on mindless creatures of other types.

Summon Ekolid (Sp) At 5th level, the thrall of Obox-ob has demonstrated sufficient competence and servility to be rewarded with one of Obox-ob's own demonic servants at her command. By expending 4 points of vile power, she can call forth an ekolid^FCI to serve her. This ability functions as the spell summon monster V, using the thrall's character level as her caster level. Above 5th level, the thrall of Obox-ob can also call upon one of the ekolids of Zionyn; these ekolids are dangerous individuals who have pursued advanced skills as a bard, cleric, ranger, or rogue. Beginning at 6th level, the thrall of Obox-ob can expend additional vile power when summoning an ekolid to bring forth such an individual instead. The maximum level held by such an ekolid is equal to the thrall of Obox-ob's class level minus 5 (so, for example, a 7th level thrall of Obox-ob can summon an ekolid with 2 levels). The additional cost is equal to the number of levels the ekolid possesses (1 point for 1 level, 2 for 2, etc.)

A thrall of Obox-ob can only summon a single ekolid at a time; if she uses this ability a second time while the first ekolid is still active, that first ekolid immediately vanishes. Regardless of level, a thrall of Obox-ob is always immune to any ekolid's form of madness (she's very aware that tiny insects are in fact infesting her flesh, it's a fact she's embraced, an ekolid has no more surprises for her). Obyriths called or summoned to the Prime Material Plane are likely to attract notice due to the damaging effects of their chaotic natures and forms of madness; a thrall of Obox-ob would be wise to employ this ability with care.

Unknowable Horror (Ex) By 5th level, the boundaries between the thrall and the vermin living within her have begun to blur, as their symbiosis increases. The thrall of Obox-ob chooses one ability score to increase by 2, but must also choose two ability scores to reduce by 1 each, a consequence of the infestation. Should the thrall of Obox-ob ever be reduced below 5th level in this class, she loses the ability score increase, but the penalties remain. These are permanent, untyped adjustments. The infestation also renders the thrall difficult to identify with divination magic, protecting her as per a permanent nondetection effect with a caster level equal to the thrall's character level.

Deformity (parasite) As of 6th level, a thrall who has not completely succumbed to the infestation ravaging her body is finally marked by the unmistakable deformation caused by the parasites within her. She receives Deformity (parasite) as a bonus feat. A thrall who already possesses this feat may choose any of the following as a bonus feat instead: Abominable Form^EE, Deformity (clawed hands)^BoVD, Deformity (eyes)^EE, Deformity (face)^EE, Deformity (gaunt)^EE, Deformity (madness)^EE, Deformity (skin)^HoH.

Shriek of Zionyn (Su) At 7th level, the thrall of Obox-ob's connection with her dark master grows stronger. Three times per day as a standard action, she may unleash a chattering, hissing, discordant shriek emanating from the most profound depths of the Abyss. The shape of the shriek may be circular (20 ft. radius around the thrall) or conical (40 ft. cone) at her discretion, chosen each time she uses the ability. Those caught in the area of the shriek suffer 6d6 sonic damage (Fortitude half) and are deafened and confused for 1d4 rounds (Will negates). Vermin are unaffected by this ability. The save DC is based on the higher of the thrall's Constitution or char and is equal to 10 + 1/2 the thrall's total HD + the relevant ability modifier.

Swarm Hive (Ex) By 7th level, the thrall of Obox-ob is recognized as the home nest by the teeming and writhing vermin within her, and they will rise up to protect her when damaged. On taking at least 10 points of damage from a single attack or effect, the thrall may as an immediate action create a swarm of spiders, locusts, plague ants^FF, wasps^FF, scorpions^Sand, or centipedes in her space. The swarm acts as though the thrall is an ally and acts on her initiative count as she directs (this does not require an action on the part of the thrall). It cannot move more than 60 ft. from the thrall of Obox-ob. The swarm will remain active for a number of rounds equal to the thrall of Obox-ob's class level before dispersing and returning to her body to rest and regain numbers. Whenever this ability activates, the thrall of Obox-ob must wait 1d4 rounds before this ability will trigger again.

Profound Degradation (Ex) At 9th level, the thrall of Obox-ob has become barely recognizable as anything close to what she once was, a living hive of vermin with the mocking tatters of an old identity covering it like a thin veil. She once more selects an ability score to raise by 2 points permanently, as well as two ability scores to decrease by 1 point each. Should the thrall of Obox-ob ever be reduced below 9th level in this class, she loses the ability score increase, but the penalties remain. These are permanent, untyped adjustments. The thrall of Obox-ob also must select one of the following deformity feats, which she gains as a bonus feat: Abominable Form^EE, Deformity (clawed hands)^BoVD, Deformity (eyes)^EE, Deformity (face)^EE, Deformity (gaunt)^EE, Deformity (madness)^EE, Deformity (skin)^HoH.

Gift of Obox-Ob (Su) At 10th level, the thrall of Obox-ob receives the boon of second life from the Demon Prince of Vermin. If the thrall is killed, three swarms emerge from her body one hour later, each a different kind of vermin chosen from spiders, locusts, plague ants^FF, wasps^FF, scarab beetles^FF, bloodfiend locusts^FF, scorpions^Sand, or centipedes. These swarms act with the Intelligence and Charisma scores of the thrall of Obox-ob, animated by her will as she seeks to secure her return. The swarms must collectively kill a number of living non-vermin creatures whose total HD equals or exceeds twice that of the thrall of Obox-ob at the time of her death within a period of 24 hours plus a number of hours equal to the total of the thrall's Constitution, Intelligence, and Charisma modifiers. If this is accomplished, the swarms regroup over the next day and reform into the thrall of Obox-ob, who permanently loses 1 point of Charisma due to the experience but otherwise suffers no consequences for having been killed and restored to life. If the deadline is not met, the swarms gradually disperse as the corrupted soul of the thrall slips out of them and wends its way to its final, horrible fate. This ability functions for undead thralls as well, restoring them to unlife. The Charisma loss can be reversed via greater restoration, limited wish, wish, or miracle.

Living Nightmare (Su) At 10th level, any vestige of the thrall's original identity has been warped utterly beyond recognition due to deformity, degradation, and infestation. The thrall of Obox-ob is no longer treated as a member of their own race, type, and species for the purposes of abilities and effects created by others (abilities the thrall possesses remain unaffected). She suffers a permanent -4 penalty to Disguise checks to conceal her deformity or appear as a member of her own race, type, and species. Three times per day as a swift action, the thrall of Obox-ob may make an Intimidate check to demoralize all within 60 ft. who can see her. Those who are demoralized and fail a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the thrall's total HD + the thrall's Charisma modifier + the number of deformity feats the thrall possesses, including Willing Deformity and Abominable Form) suffer the effects of a nightmare the next time they would sleep (no save).

Is Io the Dragon Deity a good father to his children?

Sure why not. "Good" is subjective, after all. Edit: since this response was apparently not read correctly for the flippant statement it was intended to be, I will make my position very clear: I refuse to provide an opinion on this question.

They already used the King in Yellow
Then - why not the Crawling Chaos, or the Key and the Gate?

I'm not aware of anything in particular in D&D canon, outside of the unlicensed version of that book, which references The King In Yellow, which in any event is by Robert Chambers, not Lovecraft. Afrocanon is not going to incorporate the works of H.P. Lovecraft.

Pretty bold claim - considering Pandorym have no stats

The book laid out already what its capabilities are when freed. If you intend to argue otherwise, I would ask that you start a separate thread for it as it is not germane to the purpose of this thread. I will not engage any further on the matter.

But it have!..
The "Age of Worms" is the best-known (but, likely, isn't the only) example

The Age of Worms in no way lays out how the multiverse will end as a result of it. Given how it was written, we actually have very little idea what the Age of Worms presages, apart from a host of unpleasantness for the particular world on which Kyuss manifests.

In any event, I have been away far too long and let this go on well beyond what it should have. Can we please get back on topic and away from Lovecraft et. al? Thank you!

[Tzardok]

Well, this is appropriately vile. Especialy the truenamer hate.

Small question on my own, inspired by a thread I read today: What's the dark on lamias? Where do they come from, and what exactly is the deal with lamia nobles?

[afroakuma]

Well, this is appropriately vile. Especialy the truenamer hate.

I believe you mean "pity," sir.

Small question on my own, inspired by a thread I read today: What's the dark on lamias? Where do they come from, and what exactly is the deal with lamia nobles?

It has been suggested that lamias may be the work of Pale Night, though there's only one attestation of that and it's not definitive. Curses have also been attested, and there is the suggestion that the strange ecology of the lamia species may point to a connection to chimerae and wemics. Lamias themselves do not know, though they're also not the kind to maintain a rigorous historical record.

[Bartmanhomer]

Sure why not. "Good" is subjective, after all.

Ok. I'll take your word for it.

[DragonIceAdept]

-snip-

Looking really good, this is an absolutely splendid class. One question - the class table mentions Deformity (Parasite), but that's not in the class description. I assume it's just a bonus feat at 5th level?

[afroakuma]

Ok. I'll take your word for it.

I don't know what to do with questions of that kind, I really don't. Io hasn't been personally encountered in I don't even know how long, off the top of my head. How do you translate that into "good father"-dom? Gods are bad parents to other gods almost by definition, because their children are gods - gifted with vast knowledge and abilities and not able to be tossed in time-out.

Please stop asking about things like this. The next time I see a question of this vein, you are going to be ignored. I don't want to be called on to arbitrarily decide who's nicer, Heironeous or Pelor; or who's got redder scales, Tiamat's red dragon neck or Sardior; or how Chauntea feels about Evening Glory; or whether Iyachtu Xvim ever thought of flirting with Talona. The answer to all of these is "this doesn't need a canonical answer, choose for yourself." If you want Io to be a good father, fine. Do that. If you want my endorsement? Go away. If my attempt at flippancy is not being registered correctly then I will spell it out to be very clear: I refuse to provide an opinion on this question.

Looking really good, this is an absolutely splendid class. One question - the class table mentions Deformity (Parasite), but that's not in the class description. I assume it's just a bonus feat at 5th level?

Ahhh farts, I knew I missed something. Last time I do one of these for a while, dealing with HTML tables is a nightmare compared to the old markup format.

Corrected.

[Bartmanhomer]

I don't know what to do with questions of that kind, I really don't. Io hasn't been personally encountered in I don't even know how long, off the top of my head. How do you translate that into "good father"-dom? Gods are bad parents to other gods almost by definition, because their children are gods - gifted with vast knowledge and abilities and not able to be tossed in time-out.

Please stop asking about things like this. The next time I see a question of this vein, you are going to be ignored. I don't want to be called on to arbitrarily decide who's nicer, Heironeous or Pelor; or who's got redder scales, Tiamat's red dragon neck or Sardior; or how Chauntea feels about Evening Glory; or whether Iyachtu Xvim ever thought of flirting with Talona. The answer to all of these is "this doesn't need a canonical answer, choose for yourself." If you want Io to be a good father, fine. Do that. If you want my endorsement? Go away. If my attempt at flippancy is not being registered correctly then I will spell it out to be very clear: I refuse to provide an opinion on this question.

I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I was just only asking a simple basic question. That's all.

[afroakuma]

I'm sorry if my question annoyed you. I was just only asking a simple basic question. That's all.

In fairness to you, I may be in a cranky mood right now for unrelated reasons.

To be clear, though, when I say "sure, why not?" it does not mean I am agreeing with or supporting something, it means I am disinterested in filing an opinion and asking you to choose for yourself.

[Fable Wright]

This may be a conjectural question, but:

Why is the creation of undead tied closer to religious power than arcane power? In D&D 3.5e, Animate Dead/Create Undead are easier for Divine spellcasters to cast, and they have Rebuke/Control/Turn/Destroy undead even without the use of slots. Gods, though, are across the Astral plane from mortals, while Positive/Negative energy are across the Ethereal. Outer plane sources channelling inner plane power to material plane miracle-workers seems incredibly inefficient. So why are divine beings interested in this to the point of subsidizing the magic for divine casters?

[Bartmanhomer]

In fairness to you, I may be in a cranky mood right now for unrelated reasons.

To be clear, though, when I say "sure, why not?" it does not mean I am agreeing with or supporting something, it means I am disinterested in filing an opinion and asking you to choose for yourself.

Ok. Good to know. I'm sorry that you're in a bad mood.