afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[MinimanMidget]

That's very cool. What does the Scar of Silence do? And, Google having failed me, is "dragonscarred" original, or is there somewhere I can read up on it?

[afroakuma]

That's very cool. What does the Scar of Silence do? And, Google having failed me, is "dragonscarred" original, or is there somewhere I can read up on it?

Dragonscarred is original, yes; it is a term I created for the Black Rooks to describe the process/consequence of being conferred an artificial dragonmark. Unlike a dragonmark which resembles a tattoo, a dragonscar resembles a discolored scarification that occasionally appears to pulse or throb. Dragonscars are created through a forced process that is known to involve ground-up Khyber dragonshard dust and the blood of an aberrant dragonmark holder or a dragon, catalyzed with the use of psionic power. It is known that a few groups have explored the creation of dragonscars, including the Inspired (drawing from their own use of Siberys shards implanted into the body), the illithids (presumably at the behest of their daelkyr masters, though with the daelkyr, who could say?), foes of the Draconic Prophecy, and even the gem dragons of Argonnessen themselves, creating agents meant to course-correct the Prophecy in their own strange and unique ways.

Properly etched, a dragonscar binds to the soul and blood of the bearer, and can be passed on to its descendants. Improper etching can create a number of different abominations but most commonly produces nothing more than an inert jagged scar. Dragonscars are not common or well understood and have been mistaken for aberrant dragonmarks in the past.

The Scar of Silence is the dragonscar associated with the Black Rooks. It only appears on kenku. The powers it confers are as follows: Least - silence 1/day or silent portal^SC 2/day; Lesser - sculpt sound 1/day; Greater - forbidden speech^BoVD 1/day.

[enderlord99]

Just a heads-up:

I recently directed someone to this thread for an explanation of why you can't reasonably just slot the entire D&D multiverse into the MTG one as a single plane of the latter, which she continues insisting would be both easy and a good idea.

[Alea]

Just a heads-up:

I recently directed someone to this thread for an explanation of why you can't reasonably just slot the entire D&D multiverse into the MTG one as a single plane of the latter, which she continues insisting would be both easy and a good idea.

Obviously not relevant to this thread, but Wizards of the Coast has implied, in 5e, that D&D and MtG are part of the same multiverse, and the various planes of MtG are, I suppose—they don’t use these terms much anymore—crystal spheres. This quickly breaks down into nonsense—if nothing else, the MtG concept of “planeswalker” (preposterously rare and powerful) is wildly incompatible with the D&D concept of “planewalker” (usually right canny berks, but one hardly needs world-altering power to do it)—but it may be a compelling point for this person. “Wizards of the Coast disagrees, and sees D&D as, if anything, the ‘larger’ setting in which to embed MtG.”

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge—I am not anything like an expert in MtG lore—MtG planes are single, solitary planes, so I think “single plane” is particularly nonsense since it would have to be one plane with... 27? off the top of my head? major planes and god knows how many individual worlds within some of them (primarily the Material, but don’t discount the demiplanes of the Astral and Ethereal, and for that matter the layers of the Outer Planes).

[Tzardok]

Some of M:TG's planes have... layers or attached demiplanes that could make them look like minor multiverses (I'm specifically thinking of Kamigawa's spirit mirror, Ravnica's Ghost Quarter and however the Underworld works in Theros), so the Great Wheel could be interpreted as an extreme version of that. It still wouldn't be easy and require a lot of wedging.

[SirKazum]

Some of M:TG's planes have... layers or attached demiplanes that could make them look like minor multiverses (I'm specifically thinking of Kamigawa's spirit mirror, Ravnica's Ghost Quarter and however the Underworld works in Theros), so the Great Wheel could be interpreted as an extreme version of that. It still wouldn't be easy and require a lot of wedging.

Still sounds to me like it works better with MtG's cosmology as a subset of D&D's multiverse rather than the other way around, as long as you're slamming the two together. Perhaps a bunch of planes that are... doing their own thing for whatever reason? Of course, still not germane to this thread, but anyway.

[Eldan]

If I had to connect them, I'd just go with the vague excuse D&D has always used for worlds that don't fit into the Great Wheel: "mumble mumble deep ethereal mumble mumble shadow plane mumble mumble higher dimension mumble mumble".

They are distantly connected unusual worlds. The end.

[Bad Wolf]

I'm sure she's no slouch when it comes to knowledge of the matter, but is there any famous wizard/sorcerer who's an expert on the Nine Hells like Iggwilv is on the Abyss?

[Thurbane]

Not sure if this counts, but The Dread Emperor (BoVD p.17) is a LE Wizard 10/Diabolist 10, and has Knowledge (the planes) +28, so I would assume he is something of an expert on the topic.

[wah3]

Some planar pathway questions for consideration.

Can gods be encountered on them? For example:
- Does Apollo's pleasure barge drift down the Oceanus, or Trishina swim in its waters?
- Can Cegilune be seen propelling down the Styx on some horrific errand?
- Do the Aesir, Vanir, or Norse giants ever wander the branches of Yggdrasil?
- Might Selune herself climb the Infinite Staircase? After all, it is still a-building, someone needs to check on the contractors.

Most of the pathways touch Sigil, does the Lady of Pain fully control opening or closing off access?
- There are intermittent portals to the Oceanus used to wash The Ditch clean every month or so. Some public wells and fountains (like the Singing Fountain) may also access it to supply water.
- Marraenoloths have been seen in the canals below the Lady's Ward, implying a connection to the Styx.
- Yggdrasil has tendrils in the Cage, there's said to be a branch in the Hall of Records and a root in the rafters of the Carpenters Guildhall
- Haven't found a specific mention of the Infinite Staircase, but since it seeks out places of creativity I can't imagine it misses Sigil.

[enderlord99]

Some planar pathway questions for consideration.

Can gods be encountered on them? For example:
- Does Apollo's pleasure barge drift down the Oceanus, or Trishina swim in its waters?
- Can Cegilune be seen propelling down the Styx on some horrific errand?
- Do the Aesir, Vanir, or Norse giants ever wander the branches of Yggdrasil?
- Might Selune herself climb the Infinite Staircase? After all, it is still a-building, someone needs to check on the contractors.

Most of the pathways touch Sigil, does the Lady of Pain fully control opening or closing off access?
- There are intermittent portals to the Oceanus used to wash The Ditch clean every month or so. Some public wells and fountains (like the Singing Fountain) may also access it to supply water.
- Marraenoloths have been seen in the canals below the Lady's Ward, implying a connection to the Styx.
- Yggdrasil has tendrils in the Cage, there's said to be a branch in the Hall of Records and a root in the rafters of the Carpenters Guildhall
- Haven't found a specific mention of the Infinite Staircase, but since it seeks out places of creativity I can't imagine it misses Sigil.

In order:
no; no, no; no; no, no, yes; no. absolutely; yes, probably; yes; yes; maybe.

[afroakuma]

I'm sure she's no slouch when it comes to knowledge of the matter, but is there any famous wizard/sorcerer who's an expert on the Nine Hells like Iggwilv is on the Abyss?

Nope.

Some planar pathway questions for consideration.

Can gods be encountered on them? For example:
- Does Apollo's pleasure barge drift down the Oceanus, or Trishina swim in its waters?

Their avatars and proxies, sometimes, but gods don't leave their realms without a very good reason, and a dip in the river isn't it.

- Can Cegilune be seen propelling down the Styx on some horrific errand?

See above.

- Do the Aesir, Vanir, or Norse giants ever wander the branches of Yggdrasil?

Non-divine giants, yes. Avatars, yes. Proxies, yes.

- Might Selune herself climb the Infinite Staircase? After all, it is still a-building, someone needs to check on the contractors.

Definitely not.

Most of the pathways touch Sigil, does the Lady of Pain fully control opening or closing off access?

She can open and close access between Sigil and these pathways; she has no other control over the pathways themselves.

- Haven't found a specific mention of the Infinite Staircase, but since it seeks out places of creativity I can't imagine it misses Sigil.

It definitely reaches Sigil.

[Thurbane]

Is there any nature-themed deities that are evil and/or chaotic-nongood, who have an agenda of attacking or punishing those who harm nature?

Failing that, any evil deities whose domains included Animal or Plant would be good.

Basically, looking for a patron deity for someone who would want to aggressively defend nature against transgressors, and also punish them...

[Tzardok]

I mean, most deities of nature or wilderness have at least some worshippers that engage in... let's call it ecoterrorism, and most of those who focus on nature over everything are true neutral, like Silvanus or Obad-Hai, but I don't think any deity is both a nature god and a retribution god. The closest one would propably Ravenloft's Wolf God, who has the tiny little problem of not actually existing. Or Rudra, an Indian god of divine retribution, who also has animals, diseases and storms in his portfolio.

Your other request is going to be easier.

Evil aligned deities with the animal domain are:

• Malar (Faerûnian god of beasts and the hunt),
• Sobek (Pharaonic god of rivers, swamps and crocodiles)
• Mershaulk (god of the yuan-ti, of snakes and poison, corruption and apocalyptic doom),
• Sseth (an ascended yuan-ti who replaced Mershaulk in Faerûn before being subsumed by the Pharaonic Set),
• Camazotz (Aztec god of bats, darkness and sacrifice),
• Damaran (Touv god of vermin and cowardice),
• Al-Ishtus (a setting neutral god from Sandstorm; god of desert vermin, marauders and poison)
• and Sss'thasine'ss (a god of venomous creatures in the dead pantheon of the Sarruck).

And the Wolf God of course.

If we add deities from older editions that I assigned the animal domain to, we get Daragor (god of werewolfs, beasts and pain in the lycanthrope pantheon) and Warger (a Melanesian god of crocodiles and wild beasts). And Rudra of course.


Evil aligned deities with the plant domain are rarer. There's only Mershaulk and Tlaloc (Aztec god of rain and plague). If we add deities from older editions that I assigned the plant domain to, we also have Hisii (Finnish god of evil).

I hope that helped.

Edit: You may like Tawhiri, a Maori god of storms and the weather. His mythology describes him as an antagonist force, enemy to civilization and humanity. On the other hand, he dislikes the gods of animals and plants too.

Edit 2: Question of my own. Let's say I'm a cleric of the Wolf God or Zhakata or any of the other "only exist in Ravenloft" faiths. And I manage to find my way out of the Demiplane. What happens to my spellcasting? Will I be unable to replenish my spells, as there's nothing I can draw on? Do the Dark Powers continue to supply me with power despite not being in their area of influence anymore? Do I simply draw power through my faith like a cleric of a concept? Or will some god step in and pretend to be my non-existant patron?

[Dalmosh]

Are the other members of the Celestial Hebdomad free to enter Chronius if they wish to?

Are Archons (above Lantern Archons) generally free to move between layers in Celestia?

For that matter, if Lantern Archons are simple penitent souls gradually attuning to Celestia, why do the Hebdomad permit them to be summoned as Celestial Familiars?

If you wanted to represent the soul of an unborn in game, how would it differ from a Lantern Archon?

[Tzardok]

Contrary to what 3.x sources tell you Lantern Archons aren't the petitioners of Celestia. Instead they are created by converting petitioners, similiar to how devils make lemures from theirs. The difference is that archons have standards and don't convert everyone; they respect that not everyone is willing or able to fight the good fight, so they only transform petitioners that can thrive as archons and ask for their informed consent before doing so.

An unborn soul would never be a Lantern Archon, if only because they are not lawful good.

[Bohandas]

How do you interpret the elven trance? Would you play it as a meditative trance, or a deathlike trance, or a psychadelic altered state?

[Thurbane]

I have no RAW to back this up, but I always assumed a meditative trance...

[Cieyrin]

How do you interpret the elven trance? Would you play it as a meditative trance, or a deathlike trance, or a psychadelic altered state?

When they enter reverie, elves do not usually close their eyes unless there is a bright light present. They relax their bodies entirely, each muscle losing its rigidity, until they are absolutely calm. Their faces relax into a dazed and distant look as if they were seeing another land or another time.

Sounds like an altered state to me, as it goes further to describe that they're aware of their surroundings but have to tear themselves from reverie to interact with things and even then, they're confused for a bit as they reorient to the here and now, and not their memories that they were reliving.

[KoDT69]

Ok so in my thread like a month ago I asked about deities crossing crystal spheres. I was given an example of the Ishtar? kidnapping the Mulan people and their pantheon crossed over to rescue them. So I was reading the FR wiki and now I'm confused. It says Mulan were not native to Toril. I was under the belief that Toril is the main planet in the Realmspace, and it includes the countries like Faerun, Kara-Tur, etc. So the Pantheon map makes it look like the pantheons are bound to country borders. That makes sense as it mirrors the real world, but does that mean they are included in the same crystal sphere? Or are there multiple crystal spheres on Toril? It also appears that the Prime Material Plane is just one that includes all crystal spheres. Is that part true?

[Tzardok]

Yes, the Prime Material Plane is made of all the crystal spheres and the phlogiston. Each crystal sphere includes a solar system. So Realmspace has a sun in the middle around which planets revolve: Anadia, Coliar, Toril, Karpri, Chandros, Glyth, Garden and H'Catha. If I take a spelljammer and leave the solar system, I'll hit somewhere the crystal sphere's wall. I can then open a portal and leave the sphere into the phlogiston, and if I chose the right direction, I'll reach, for example, Greyspace within a few days (which is geocentric instead of heliocentric, so Oerth lies in the middle and the sun revolves around it).

The thing is, the Imaskari were epic level conjurers. They kidnapped the Mulan from a different crystal sphere, a different solar system somewhere out there (I think Afro named that sphere Ankhspace sometime).

Edit: Question on my part. Mount Olympus is connected to the Olympian pantheon (and Yggdrasil to the Norse). How do such a specialized planar pathways come to be? Did the Olympians create the Mount? Did it come to be incidentally, as a result of their worshippers' faith? Did they just find a mountain shaped planar pathway and suborned/assimiliated it?

[KoDT69]

Ok but here is the selection causing my confusion.

The Mulan were first brought to Toril in −4366 DR, through twin gates to another world created by wizard rulers of the Imaskar Empire.[5][9] They were used as slaves and for many years their fervent prayers went unanswered because of the magical Imaskari barrier. However, with the help of Ao,[citation needed] mortal avatars of the slaves' deities from the Mulhorandi pantheon were able to circumvent the barrier and defeat the Imaskari in −2488 DR.[10]

It says their deities were from the Mulhorandi pantheon which is ON Toril.

[enderlord99]

Ok but here is the selection causing my confusion.

The Mulan were first brought to Toril in −4366 DR, through twin gates to another world created by wizard rulers of the Imaskar Empire.[5][9] They were used as slaves and for many years their fervent prayers went unanswered because of the magical Imaskari barrier. However, with the help of Ao,[citation needed] mortal avatars of the slaves' deities from the Mulhorandi pantheon were able to circumvent the barrier and defeat the Imaskari in −2488 DR.[10]

It says their deities were from the Mulhorandi pantheon which is ON Toril.

It is on Toril, but ti wasn't always.

[KoDT69]

Ok, so let me see if I got this right.

The Mulan were kidnapped from whatever other world. They were brought to Toril as slaves. Eventually their pantheon's avatars got the green light to liberate them from Imaskaris then the liberated Mulan stayed on Toril creating the country of Mulhorand and giving their original deities a presence in Realmspace through their worship?

[enderlord99]

Ok, so let me see if I got this right.

The Mulan were kidnapped from whatever other world. They were brought to Toril as slaves. Eventually their pantheon's avatars got the green light to liberate them from Imaskaris then the liberated Mulan stayed on Toril creating the country of Mulhorand and giving their original deities a presence in Realmspace through their worship?

Basically, yeah

[KoDT69]

Basically, yeah

Thanks! I was trying to figure out how a different country was in a different crystal sphere even tho they are supposed to be solar system sized.

It's still kinda weird with the country boundaries and the pantheons. Do the deities have the same power all over the Realmspace? Or only in the area where their worshippers are concentrated?

[Thealtruistorc]

These conversations about the Mulan have gotten me thinking. If this cultures (IIRC) hails from actual-Earth Egypt, which is in a parallel prime material plane compared to Oerth, does that mean that Faerun and Oerth exist on different prime material planes? How is that reconciled with the two realms being accessible via Spelljamming?

[afroakuma]

Basically, looking for a patron deity for someone who would want to aggressively defend nature against transgressors, and also punish them...

Remember that true neutral deities of nature, as Tzardok pointed out, have neutral evil worshippers and are on board with a bit of Gaea's Vengeance.

Edit 2: Question of my own. Let's say I'm a cleric of the Wolf God or Zhakata or any of the other "only exist in Ravenloft" faiths. And I manage to find my way out of the Demiplane. What happens to my spellcasting?

You'll find yourself without spellcasting for a while, since the very conduits you used to draw spell power no longer exist for you. If you're a practicing cleric, you may begin gaining power as though a cleric of a concept, but most likely you will be persuaded to join an actual faith. Or walk away from cleric-ing entirely with your faith broken.

Are the other members of the Celestial Hebdomad free to enter Chronius if they wish to?

I see nothing to indicate anything in either direction. Closest I have is the tomes don't tend to move between layers, so I doubt it.

Are Archons (above Lantern Archons) generally free to move between layers in Celestia?

No. They are permitted to move between layers only as instructed, and otherwise must follow paths up the mount like anyone else, earning their way to higher layers. They can always go downward.

For that matter, if Lantern Archons are simple penitent souls gradually attuning to Celestia, why do the Hebdomad permit them to be summoned as Celestial Familiars?

Not every lantern learns how to advance in the same way - those that are summoned need to learn something about the material realm in order to progress.

If you wanted to represent the soul of an unborn in game, how would it differ from a Lantern Archon?

...you wouldn't, an unborn soul doesn't become a lantern archon and doesn't exist anywhere that stats would be relevant for.

How do you interpret the elven trance? Would you play it as a meditative trance, or a deathlike trance, or a psychadelic altered state?

Half meditation, half altered state.

Ok so in my thread like a month ago I asked about deities crossing crystal spheres. I was given an example of the Ishtar? kidnapping the Mulan people and their pantheon crossed over to rescue them. So I was reading the FR wiki and now I'm confused. It says Mulan were not native to Toril. I was under the belief that Toril is the main planet in the Realmspace, and it includes the countries like Faerun, Kara-Tur, etc. So the Pantheon map makes it look like the pantheons are bound to country borders. That makes sense as it mirrors the real world, but does that mean they are included in the same crystal sphere? Or are there multiple crystal spheres on Toril? It also appears that the Prime Material Plane is just one that includes all crystal spheres. Is that part true?

The Prime Material Plane covers all known crystal spheres, yes. Within the sphere called Realmspace is the planet Toril, which is home to numerous pantheons. The Mulan people were abducted from another world (from Earth, in fact) by the Imaskari.

Edit: Question on my part. Mount Olympus is connected to the Olympian pantheon (and Yggdrasil to the Norse). How do such a specialized planar pathways come to be? Did the Olympians create the Mount? Did it come to be incidentally, as a result of their worshippers' faith? Did they just find a mountain shaped planar pathway and suborned/assimiliated it?

We don't know how planar pathways form, though as components of the Outer Planes they are built of belief in some fashion. It's likely that either the relative prominence of these pantheons (note how many things are named with their terminology) helped create the pathways, or that they adopted existing elements of the Outer Planes in their own mythos. As an example, I strongly suspect Mount Olympus only became a planar pathway through the beliefs of the Olympian faithful, whereas the River Styx and Charon existed independently and were annexed into Olympian myth.

Ok, so let me see if I got this right.

The Mulan were kidnapped from whatever other world. They were brought to Toril as slaves. Eventually their pantheon's avatars got the green light to liberate them from Imaskaris then the liberated Mulan stayed on Toril creating the country of Mulhorand and giving their original deities a presence in Realmspace through their worship?

Correct on all counts. The Mulhorandi pantheon is currently one of the pantheons worshipped in Realmspace but they arrived after their faithful.

It's still kinda weird with the country boundaries and the pantheons. Do the deities have the same power all over the Realmspace? Or only in the area where their worshippers are concentrated?

The deities are considered to have a portfolio of responsibilities that is bounded by their geographic region and the needs of their faithful; as an example, the Canadian government is responsible for things going on in Canada, and for the well-being of Canadians if they happen to be outside of Canada. The Mulhorandi pantheon is responsible for their individual portfolios (love, knowledge, death, war, nature, etc.) within Mulhorand and as pertains to the Mulhorandi people only; this means that, for instance, Anhur is not to manipulate the weather beyond the boundaries of Mulhorand except at the behest of or to aid a Mulhorandi. Similarly, the Faerûnian pantheon, the most well-known gods of Toril, are prohibited from acting within Mulhorand except under the same terms. Now, it's easy to transgress these rules by simply dispatching minions to cross the border, but there are limits to how much Ao will tolerate deliberate attempts to cross lines.

These conversations about the Mulan have gotten me thinking. If this cultures (IIRC) hails from actual-Earth Egypt, which is in a parallel prime material plane compared to Oerth, does that mean that Faerun and Oerth exist on different prime material planes? How is that reconciled with the two realms being accessible via Spelljamming?

Few things engender the hate in me that Greenwood and Gygax's inane flirtations with "the real Earth" being connected to the D&D multiverse do. This particular one is thorny because it's quite clear that everyone involved in making statements on this point paid no attention to any of the others, at any time. So we rectify this in one of the following ways:

• The Mulan were abducted from the version of Earth that is on the Prime Material Plane - there is one, after all, and it's very similar to our own with a bit of magic and monsters mixed in (only a bit).
• The Mulan were abducted from the real Earth on an alternate Prime, and their prayers were heard by the Great Wheel equivalents of their deities, who sent their manifestations through Wildspace to aid them.
• The Mulan were abducted from the real Earth on an alternate Prime, and their prayers were heard though the agency of Ao by their gods from that cosmology, who could not directly manifest on Toril due to the Imaskari barrier and so dispatched manifestations that traveled through Wildspace in order to reach the planet.

The canonical answer seems to be somewhere in the milieu of the second or third options there.

[Lord Xan]

What is the connection between elves and the fey? Or what was the connection between the fey and Corellon Larethian when he was creating elves? Is theier resemblance merely artificial and coincidental?

[Tzardok]

According to this post, in afro-canon Corellon Larethian began his existence as "a proto-deity looking to split off from the fey and forge its own path and people."