afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Khedrac]

I saw this (on another Forum) and though of Afroakuma...

Could an Immortal pull a Darklord out of Demiplane of Dread?

Ok so a bit of backstory for this question.

I'm DMing 5e. Ran Curse of Strahd and it ended in a very interesting way, with one of the PCs turned into a Death Knight and made Darklord of her own Domain. I'm now DMing roughly the same group a campaign in Mystara. One of players wanted to be an Undead Warlock and with a player of the Death Knight came with an idea to make said Death Knight his patron, working how he contacted her on Demiplane of Dread via a very strong magical experiment gone wrong (as you can guess, this character is from Glantri). While Death Knight's player plays a new character, she also occasionally does a "voice in his head" for Undead Warlock. Her old character is observing Mystara through his eyes.

She privately asked me if there could be a possibility Death Knight could contact one of the Immortals and try to strike a deal* of some sort to get herself out of Demiplane of Dread. She did a bit of research on Immortals and considers contacting Loki because he has a history of tricking other Immortals. However, next session I may have an opportunity for that character to get the attention of Thanatos (long story short: they're in Nithian ruins). So I wanted to ask before I even consider if he or any other Entropic Immortal would let her in (which I do think chances are slim considering how Immortals do not like powerful visitors from multiverse outside Mystaraspace**) I need to know if they actually could do it. I know Vecna escaped Ravenloft by becoming a Greater God and supposedly PCs in "When Black Roses Bloom" acted as agents of Krynn Gods when they fetched Lord Soth but Immortals are not gods and their powers are different. What do you think?

* - That PC was originally a Fiend Pact Warlock so from a devil to Dark Powers to Entropic Immortals sounds about right for her life choices so far.
** - I assume this is why the player is eyeing Loki to help her old character, hoping his tricks will shield her from other Immortals showing up to kick her ass dead.

And I thought that while I don't link Mystara with Ravenloft I know someone who can, hence reposting their question here so I can ferry back Afroakuma's wisdom...

[Tzardok]

The Dark Sun source books mention that an elemental cleric makes a pact with the mysterious lords of Athas' elemental planes, who also wage war against each other. But I haven't found any elaboration or description of these lords. Who or what are these elemental lords?

By the way, the 2e descriptions of Athas' elemental planes mention that visitors are immune to the plane's most prevalent danger (drowning on Water, fire on Fire, falling damage on Air, noxious fumes on Magma and so on). Do you think this is a good idea to implement, or should Athas' elemental planes be as dangerous to visit as the proper elemental planes of the Great Wheel?

[Blueiji]

Was recently reading a wiki article on the Blood War, and I stumbled upon a piece of lore on Asmodeus that I’ve never heard before. I’ve copy-paste’d it into a spoiler box below.

Spoiler

Show

Asmodeus is actually a decoy/avatar/persona created in order to give the illusion that the ruler of hell is a devil of near-godlike power, and thus less threatening than what he actually is. Asmodeus is one of the twin serpents who created the planes, most likely older and more powerful than the gods themselves. If the good and probably even neutral gods knew what he really was, they'd freak out and then immediately team up to wreck Asmodeus forever which would of course unmake the universe. In his prime he might be a match for them, but the catch is that he's terribly injured from his fight with his lawful good equivalent long ago, and he needs to hide for as long as it takes to heal.

Is any part of this at all canon? Or is this just fanon being presented as canon? Or is this perhaps canon, but only for certain versions/iterations of Planescape?

[Bohandas]

I remember the serpent god part being in an old 1e orn2e sourcebook, but much of that particular book's lore contradicted the other lore of that era (and of later editions)

[Dalmosh]

In general, what is the planar population of Death of Innocence like? What sorts of folks end up there, and why do they stay? Is the town fairly Viking in style/culture - given Niflheim's connection to the Asgardian pantheon?

How common is it to encounter gehreleths in Curst?

[Thurbane]

Is there an official/established alternate prime material plane that is like the Mirror Dimension in Star Trek (evil Kirk etc.), or similar to the alternate timeline of Injustice: Gods Among Us where alignments are inverted/the heroes are villains, and vice-versa?

[Naanomi]

I think I asked something like this four threads ago, but I can't find it so... apologies for replication.

~What is the relationship between the Old Ones and the Far Realm?
~Did they create it (because they created everything), or is it some kind of accident or other mistake beyond their influence?
~Do they resent that the bad sectors on the MultiCosmos' hard drive keep throwing errors into their fingerpainting projects created cosmologies, and perhaps work to limit its contamination (in their indirect ways)?
~Is the Far Realm out there bothering other cosmologies and... noncosmological spaces of various kinds (Near Realm, Vast Medium, Bagspace, the Old One's own little pocket I can't remember the name of), or is it more 'interactive' with the Great Wheel for some reason?

[Tzardok]

Hey Naanomi. Long time no see.

I just did a short dive through the older Planar Questions Threads regarding Old Ones and everything I've found boils down to "They generally don't interact with cosmologies they've finished creating" and "they don't have anything to do with the Far Realms".

Regarding the last question: I would think that the Near Realm and Bagspace are still counted as part or at least adjactant to the Wheel. In the Vast Medium there propably is nothing to interact with for the Far Realms, and other cosmologies, well... did anybody build a permanent portal to the Far Realms, like the Vast Gate in the Wheel? If not, they propably get bothered less.

[Naanomi]

Hey Naanomi. Long time no see.

Yeah, I didn't realize things got rolling here again (I switched to 5e... Not lorewise but mechanically... because I run games for student groups with those rules) so I've been more active on that forum of late

Now that I know things are active here again though I am sure I'll get smoten by black lightning any day now for my insolence

[Bohandas]

Is the Far Realm out there bothering other cosmologies

It's Eberron's plane of Xoriot. (Which I personally interpret not as a true plane but as a hole in the cosmology leading into the far realm, wherein the Far Realm and Eberron's planar reality intermix; a little bit like a cross between the Paraelemental/Quasielemental Planes and the Eye of Terror.)

[Silly Name]

Was recently reading a wiki article on the Blood War, and I stumbled upon a piece of lore on Asmodeus that I’ve never heard before. I’ve copy-paste’d it into a spoiler box below.

Spoiler

Show

Asmodeus is actually a decoy/avatar/persona created in order to give the illusion that the ruler of hell is a devil of near-godlike power, and thus less threatening than what he actually is. Asmodeus is one of the twin serpents who created the planes, most likely older and more powerful than the gods themselves. If the good and probably even neutral gods knew what he really was, they'd freak out and then immediately team up to wreck Asmodeus forever which would of course unmake the universe. In his prime he might be a match for them, but the catch is that he's terribly injured from his fight with his lawful good equivalent long ago, and he needs to hide for as long as it takes to heal.

Is any part of this at all canon? Or is this just fanon being presented as canon? Or is this perhaps canon, but only for certain versions/iterations of Planescape?

There are multiple, conflicting accounts on Asmodeus' origins and goals. I asked a question about the Twin Serpents here too, and while I like it as a theory, it's heavily contradicted by the most widely-accepted "creation stories" of the Great Wheel in general and of the Nine Hells.

The "canon" answer may be that "Asmodeus intentionally spreads conflicting accounts about himself, in a grand ploy to leave everyone else in the dark about his true goals and motives", which is pretty par for the course for ol' Asmy.

The part about the other gods freaking out and killing Asmodeus, resulting in the death of the universe, is fanon even in light of the tale of the Twin Serpents: Asmodeus isn't a metaphysical lynchpin of the universe, and in any case the Pact Primeval ensures that none of the gods would attack him. Also, the other serpent, is Jazirian, the Lawful Good god of couatls, who, while a Greater Deity, is never stated to be so powerful as to be a threat to all other gods.

[Bohandas]

and in any case the Pact Primeval ensures that none of the gods would attack him

I'm pretty sure only the gods of law are signatories of the Pact

[Tzardok]

I'm pretty sure only the gods of law are signatories of the Pact

And I'm pretty sure no one knows who signed it and what it does actually say. If we didn't know where one of the copies is kept I would even doubt its existence.
Incidentally, any conjecture on defenses of the copies kept by the archons and the modrons?

[Alea]

It's Eberron's plane of Xoriot. (Which I personally interpret not as a true plane but as a hole in the cosmology leading into the far realm, wherein the Far Realm and Eberron's planar reality intermix; a little bit like a cross between the Paraelemental/Quasielemental Planes and the Eye of Terror.)

Eeeeeeeh. I have pretty strong doubts about this. Xoriat is the moon of chaos and madness—but those are still very This Realm things. The alien nature of the Far Realms is different. The daelkyr aren’t that weird; even slaad are more incomprehensible than they are.

This does cause problems when trying to incorporate Eberron into the Great Wheel, of course, since the daelkyr are canonically, within Eberron, the creators of various creatures attributed to the Far Realm outside Eberron. This is part of the reason that I prefer not to try to include the Great Wheel when I’m running an Eberron game¹ (I know, heresy here). 5e’s approach (more heresy) was to just retcon things so the moons are separate from the planes and Eberron just has both—a change I find exceedingly stupid, personally.

1. _{Shardspace can exist in a Planescape or Spelljammer game easily enough—there, the Eberron canon is just ignored when it becomes too problematic and it doesn’t matter because the focus isn’t on that one world.}

[Fable Wright]

I will say that the explanation that Afroakuma posited about Shardspace is pretty good for plot hooks, though. Ring of Siberys chunked of planar 'bubbles' from existing planes, and one of the chunks was a cyst from the Far Realms. The essence of the Far Realms was brought into planar reality for prolonged periods, fundamentally changing its nature to be comprehensible-but-maddening since it's cut off from its native environment. You get Daelkyr as organisms that adapted well to the change, eager to pick apart the shapes and minds of mortals that, in turn, give them form as Outsiders; and the things that didn't adapt well to the change... well, they're not going to be leaving their plane to an even more hostile reality, now are they?

[Naanomi]

My 'canon' is that each of the Eberron demi-planes have a tiny portal to a Great Wheel plane that they draw energy from at their heart... And Xoriat has one to the Plane of Nightmares (in the region of dreams) which canonically had Far Realm corruption present

[Alea]

My 'canon' is that each of the Eberron demi-planes have a tiny portal to a Great Wheel plane that they draw energy from at their heart... And Xoriat has one to the Plane of Nightmares (in the region of dreams) which canonically had Far Realm corruption present

Yeah, I’ve gone with this in the past, but Shavarath is really hard. I’ve generally gone with like a weird, automatically-moving portal that just follows wherever the fighting is thickest (and archons are actually intervening). Problem is, my impression is that there aren’t really archon armies present on the battlefield anywhere in the Blood War much of the time, which has to be tweaked for Shavarath.

The other hardship is just preventing people from leaving Shardspace via the moons, since it’s pretty key to the impetus for faith in the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and cults to the Keeper that there really isn’t any other way to avoid Dolurrh. Primarily the Blood of Vol: the Silver Flame can get by without the threat of Dolurrh (on some level the beliefs of the Church of the Silver Flame are the most “normal” by planar standards anyway), and Keeper cults are incredibly niche anyway, but the Blood of Vol is a mainstream religion (at least in Karrnath) that convinces the common people that undeath is a good idea—largely because Dolurrh sucks that much.

[Tzardok]

Yeah, I’ve gone with this in the past, but Shavarath is really hard. I’ve generally gone with like a weird, automatically-moving portal that just follows wherever the fighting is thickest (and archons are actually intervening). Problem is, my impression is that there aren’t really archon armies present on the battlefield anywhere in the Blood War much of the time, which has to be tweaked for Shavarath.

Easiest solution is that Shavarath has three connections: to Abyss, Baator and Celestia.

The other hardship is just preventing people from leaving Shardspace via the moons, since it’s pretty key to the impetus for faith in the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and cults to the Keeper that there really isn’t any other way to avoid Dolurrh. Primarily the Blood of Vol: the Silver Flame can get by without the threat of Dolurrh (on some level the beliefs of the Church of the Silver Flame are the most “normal” by planar standards anyway), and Keeper cults are incredibly niche anyway, but the Blood of Vol is a mainstream religion (at least in Karrnath) that convinces the common people that undeath is a good idea—largely because Dolurrh sucks that much.

Eberron's planes are still infinite. If each has only a few connections in those parts of the plane that are the strongest expression of what that plane is (which are logically the most inhospitable places), leaving the Orrerry that way would be a rare and unheard of event.

Other problem: assuming that Dolurrh is no exception and has a conduit to an Outer Plane too, where does it connect to?

[Alea]

I seem to recall having this discussion previously, but personally I’d just make it a demiplane. There’s no need for Dolurrh to be particularly big, after all—there’s literally nothing in it aside from souls that are fading away. A demiplane that wraps around would be quite sufficient I think, since you’d never be able to recognize that you’d returned to somewhere you’d already been. I think I’d tossed Vacuum as another possibility, if you wanted more space, for much the same reason.

[Naanomi]

Dolurrh seems pretty parallel in effect to The Grey Wastes; though it also reminds me a bit of The Grey from Athas so... Maybe it is just a really corrupt connection to the Astral (which is why dead souls go there: A failed attempt to go through an astral conduit to the 'correct' afterlife beyond)

And I'm totally fine with Eberron's planes having multiple connection points at their heart... Irenia having a bigger portal (or many pinpoint portals) to the Positive Energy Plane, but also some lesser ties to the upper reaches of Celestia (for example)

[Bohandas]

Eeeeeeeh. I have pretty strong doubts about this. Xoriat is the moon of chaos and madness—but those are still very This Realm things. The alien nature of the Far Realms is different. The daelkyr aren’t that weird; even slaad are more incomprehensible than they are.

IIRC Xoriot is explicitly identified with the Far Realm several times in the books

And parts of the description on page 99 of the original campaign setting book is copied verbatim from the description of the Far Realm in the 3e Manual of The Planes (particularly the segment about the rivers of milk-like substances and the blue globs of giant ticks)

[Tzardok]

IIRC Xoriot is explicitly identified with the Far Realm several times in the books

Nah. The sources only say, paraphrased "Things that are associated with the Far Realms in Standard are to be associated with Xoriat if ported into Eberron". Nothing about Xoriat being the Far Realm, more the opposite of that.

And parts of the description on page 99 of the original campaign setting book is copied verbatim from the description of the Far Realm in the 3e Manual of The Planes (particularly the segment about the rivers of milk-like substances and the blue globs of giant ticks)

This reeks to me like laziness instead of anything else. Not that the description in MotP wasn't lazy in the first place. Esspecially if we accept afrocanon on that matter and look at his description of the Far Realms.

[Silly Name]

So, while re-reading The Book of Exalted Deeds, I've come across something that confuses me: the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar. According to the book, those two artifacts, associated with a Lawful Good deity, have one power in particular that makes no sense to me: if the Amulet and Cup are displayed together, any onlooker risks being overcome by greed and try to wrestle the artifacts from their owner. Why? Reading on the lore on Al'Akbar I can find, I see no reason why he (or Al'Asran) would want those items to magically induce greed into people, especially considering they do have powers that only work when used in tandem.

This seems more like a curse put on the items by some evil third party, but I can't find any info on that.

[Batcathat]

So, while re-reading The Book of Exalted Deeds, I've come across something that confuses me: the Cup and Talisman of Al'Akbar. According to the book, those two artifacts, associated with a Lawful Good deity, have one power in particular that makes no sense to me: if the Amulet and Cup are displayed together, any onlooker risks being overcome by greed and try to wrestle the artifacts from their owner. Why? Reading on the lore on Al'Akbar I can find, I see no reason why he (or Al'Asran) would want those items to magically induce greed into people, especially considering they do have powers that only work when used in tandem.

This seems more like a curse put on the items by some evil third party, but I can't find any info on that.

I'm not familiar with the items in question, but maybe it's supposed to be like a test? "Are you good enough to resist it?" Though if that's the case, it does seem like giving into temptation should come with some consequences.

[Tzardok]

From what I know about artifacts, in 2e each artifact had drawbacks or curses by dint of being an artifact. The Cup and the Talisman had this specific drawback already back in the adventure "Day of Al'Akbar", but their description in the Book of Artifacts omit that specific drawback, only mentioning that people have been going to war out of greed over those two objects for ages. Maybe someone thought the greed they evoke needed a mechanical representation, or maybe the artifacts' history caused the curse: these objects have been stolen and fought over out of greed for so long that evoking greed has become a part of what they are.

[Silly Name]

I'm not familiar with the items in question, but maybe it's supposed to be like a test? "Are you good enough to resist it?" Though if that's the case, it does seem like giving into temptation should come with some consequences.

It's literally a Will save you have to pass, and it's triggered simply by being in the presence of both items at the same time. Hardly a "test", plus it makes using the items an absurd hassle.

[Khedrac]

From what I know about artifacts, in 2e each artifact had drawbacks or curses by dint of being an artifact. The Cup and the Talisman had this specific drawback already back in the adventure "Day of Al'Akbar", but their description in the Book of Artifacts omit that specific drawback, only mentioning that people have been going to war out of greed over those two objects for ages. Maybe someone thought the greed they evoke needed a mechanical representation, or maybe the artifacts' history caused the curse: these objects have been stolen and fought over out of greed for so long that evoking greed has become a part of what they are.

Not just 2nd Ed - ever since before 1st Ed every artifact has had a major drawback, usually of the sort that makes sensible players go "no, not worth it". I think at some point this was clarified not to affect gods or the original owners of the artifacts.

Even in Master D&D (BECMI) artifacts looked like something you gathered because you were going to need them, but you generally didn't actually want anything to do with them.

[afroakuma]

I saw this (on another Forum) and though of Afroakuma...

And I thought that while I don't link Mystara with Ravenloft I know someone who can, hence reposting their question here so I can ferry back Afroakuma's wisdom...

This was actually a really interesting question to delve into, and in fact might address something that Tzardok wanted regarding the Dark Powers.

My ultimate conclusion is no, an Immortal, even a Hierarch, would not be able to pull a darklord from the Demiplane of Dread inherently. Now, as a corollary to that, it is plausible that an Immortal, or a powerful enough deity, could incite a conjunction between the Material Plane and the Demiplane of Dread, but while this might become an opportunity for a normal prisoner of the plane to cross the border and escape, the Dark Powers would likely mobilize to ensure that a darklord stays put unless they have already decided they can do better.

The reason this is interesting, however, is because an Immortal was involved in a kind of "proto-Ravenloft" event - the curse of Castle Amber, which whisked a castle and its mad inhabitants into an isolated realm cut off from escape by a mysterious deadly mist.

Spoiler: So for those who read my Dark Powers thing

Show

...this may have been the inspiration for the current version of their experiment, the Demiplane of Dread, anchored around Barovia and Ravenloft. The Dark Powers are known to have vast awareness of the Material Plane, it's quite likely they picked up on this happening.

The Dark Sun source books mention that an elemental cleric makes a pact with the mysterious lords of Athas' elemental planes, who also wage war against each other. But I haven't found any elaboration or description of these lords. Who or what are these elemental lords?

They are deliberately left undefined, but they aren't anyone you might be thinking of. In fact, they aren't individual lords at all - elemental clerics may forge pacts with any number of beings who qualify as an "elemental lord," not just one unique individual for each element. They are powerful and often special elemental beings tied to the specific pockets of each Inner Plane that are concerned with Athas, regions substantially distinctive from their host plane by and large. For example, the Athasian Air boundary is a cloudy realm in which the clouds are "solid" and can be walked on, whereas in Air proper, this is a rare phenomenon; similarly, the Athasian Fire boundary is crimson earth ringed in labyrinthine walls of flame, a far cry from the endless inferno of Fire proper.

By the way, the 2e descriptions of Athas' elemental planes mention that visitors are immune to the plane's most prevalent danger (drowning on Water, fire on Fire, falling damage on Air, noxious fumes on Magma and so on). Do you think this is a good idea to implement, or should Athas' elemental planes be as dangerous to visit as the proper elemental planes of the Great Wheel?

I think it's dumb, but it's important to note that you only get to Athas's elemental boundaries by and large through the approval of and agency of the elemental lords - it's not very easy for someone to just pop over and visit. Thus, when they have extended this invitation, they are doing so with the protection necessary already allocated.

Was recently reading a wiki article on the Blood War, and I stumbled upon a piece of lore on Asmodeus that I’ve never heard before. I’ve copy-paste’d it into a spoiler box below.

Ah yes, that one. Just another one of the many many rumors that Asmodeus allows to circulate about himself. He's definitely not an antediluvian ubergod-snake, but it's a fun myth about him nonetheless.

Question requiring sourcebook I can't find

I have to track down my copy of Planes of Conflict to get this for you.

Is there an official/established alternate prime material plane that is like the Mirror Dimension in Star Trek (evil Kirk etc.), or similar to the alternate timeline of Injustice: Gods Among Us where alignments are inverted/the heroes are villains, and vice-versa?

I don't believe there is one specific one, no. It's been a while though and my 1e books are far from me, I strongly suspect that's where it would be if anywhere.

~What is the relationship between the Old Ones and the Far Realm?

Unknown and likely uninvolved, or an accidental byproduct they just didn't care about.

Did they create it (because they created everything), or is it some kind of accident or other mistake beyond their influence?

"Beyond their influence" is a non-thing. Nothing is beyond the influence of the Old Ones. That doesn't mean that the Far Realm was in any way designed or intentional.

Do they resent that the bad sectors on the MultiCosmos' hard drive keep throwing errors into their fingerpainting projects created cosmologies, and perhaps work to limit its contamination (in their indirect ways)?

The Old Ones are pretty inscrutable. We haven't seen any of their emissaries poking around the Far Realm or its incursions, so presumably they don't care.

Is the Far Realm out there bothering other cosmologies and... noncosmological spaces of various kinds (Near Realm, Vast Medium, Bagspace, the Old One's own little pocket I can't remember the name of), or is it more 'interactive' with the Great Wheel for some reason?

In theory it's capable of contaminating nearly anything, and certainly the vestige Otiax would seem to suggest that the Far Realm has touched the Near Realm in some form. There isn't really anything in the Vast Medium to contaminate (that's sort of the point of it). Extradimensional spaces are unlikely to be specifically contaminated by contact with the Far Realm, but it's nowhere near impossible. The Old Ones' dimensional barrier would absolutely stop Far Realm interference with them directly.

I will say that the explanation that Afroakuma posited about Shardspace is pretty good for plot hooks, though. Ring of Siberys chunked of planar 'bubbles' from existing planes, and one of the chunks was a cyst from the Far Realms. The essence of the Far Realms was brought into planar reality for prolonged periods, fundamentally changing its nature to be comprehensible-but-maddening since it's cut off from its native environment. You get Daelkyr as organisms that adapted well to the change, eager to pick apart the shapes and minds of mortals that, in turn, give them form as Outsiders; and the things that didn't adapt well to the change... well, they're not going to be leaving their plane to an even more hostile reality, now are they?

Yeah, I’ve gone with this in the past, but Shavarath is really hard. I’ve generally gone with like a weird, automatically-moving portal that just follows wherever the fighting is thickest (and archons are actually intervening). Problem is, my impression is that there aren’t really archon armies present on the battlefield anywhere in the Blood War much of the time, which has to be tweaked for Shavarath.

There's no real reason it has to be the actual Blood War, and there are always companies of this or that other exemplar race getting involved to try and jab it in this or that direction or accomplish other goals. Shavarath strikes me as being either a demiplane of war or a particularly interesting bubble of Acheron, possibly a kind of "flanking zone" for the demons, which would explain why archons have joined the fray there - demons definitely should not be on Acheron by and large.

The other hardship is just preventing people from leaving Shardspace via the moons, since it’s pretty key to the impetus for faith in the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and cults to the Keeper that there really isn’t any other way to avoid Dolurrh.

It's entirely plausible that some element of the Rings of Siberys, the dragonshards that perfuse the whole smelly planet, and those below in some way bind the astral links of Eberron-born souls to its weird metaphysical space - not unlike how the Gray exists as an ugly fence for Athasian souls. In so doing, they make it very hard to actually escape Dolurrh as a final destiny - not impossible, since the Planes are vast and wondrous, but between how generally challenging it is to get to the moons in the first place, then to travel the planes, and then to find a solution to this - especially given that Eberron is cosmologically off the beaten path and doesn't have a ton of contact with worlds where there's a known alternative for one's afterlife...

[Bohandas]

Is there an official/established alternate prime material plane that is like the Mirror Dimension in Star Trek (evil Kirk etc.), or similar to the alternate timeline of Injustice: Gods Among Us where alignments are inverted/the heroes are villains, and vice-versa?

It's not necessarily an alternate plane but there is the world of Uerth from Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, which has evil doubles of the people of Oerth (or a good double if the original was evil). Apparently the Iron Bands of Bilarro magic item is named after Lord Robilar's double on Uerth.

(There was also the Doppel Cosmology from page 215 of the 3e manual of the planes, but that was explicitly not part of the standard cosmology)

[redking]

I just posted this on the Piazza, but I was inspired by the talk of Mystara in this thread. A bit of an effort post.

Fortunately, its not very hard. D&D 3.5 has 20 ranks for deities, with an additional rank of 0. More on the latter later. We will be rounding up when calculating Immortal to Deity ranks for this work.

20/36 = 0.5555555555555556
36/20 = 1.8

Rank 0
Creatures of this rank are sometimes called quasi-deities or hero deities. Creatures that have a mortal and a deity as parents also fall into this category. These entities cannot grant spells, but are immortal and usually have one or more ability scores that are far above the norm for their species. They may have some worshipers. Ordinary mortals do not have a divine rank of 0. They lack a divine rank altogether.

Rank 1-5
These entities, called demigods, are the weakest of the deities. A demigod can grant spells and perform a few deeds that are beyond mortal limits. A demigod has anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand devoted mortal worshipers and may receive veneration or respect from many more. A demigod controls a small godly realm (usually on an Outer Plane) and has minor control over a portfolio that includes one or more aspects of mortal existence. A demigod might be very accomplished in a single skill or a group of related skills, gain combat advantages in special circumstances, or be able to bring about minor changes in reality itself related to the portfolio.

Rank 6-10
Called lesser deities, these entities grant spells and can perform more powerful deeds than demigods can. Lesser deities have anywhere from a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods. They also have keener senses where their portfolios are concerned.

Rank 11-15
These entities are called intermediate deities. They have hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers and control larger godly realms than demigods or lesser deities.

Rank 16-20
Called greater deities, these entities may have millions of mortal worshipers, and they command respect even among other deities. The most powerful of greater deities rule over other deities just as mortal sovereigns rule over commoners.

Rank 21+
These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

Immortals:

Initiate 1 - 6
Temporal 7 - 12
Celestial 13 - 18
Empyreal 19 - 24
Eternal 25 - 30
Hierarch 31 - 36
Old One 37+ (equivalent to Overdeity)

Deity to Immmortal ranks.

Initiate 1 to Temporal 9 = rank 1 - 5 rank Demigod. Example: Al-Kalim is a 3rd ranked Immortal. When he meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Al-Kalim as a rank 2 Demigod.

Temporal 10 to Celestial 18 rank = 6 - 10 rank Lesser Deity. Example: Freya is a 13th ranked Celestial. When she meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Freya as a rank 8 Lesser Deity.

Empyreal 19 to Eternal 27 = 11 - 15 rank Intermediate Deity. Example: Orcus (who is apparently not the same as the Demonlord) is a 25th ranked Eternal. When he meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Orcus as a rank 14 Intermediate Deity.

Eternal 28 to Hierarch 36 = 16 - 20 rank Greater Deity. Example: Ordana is a 31st ranked Hierarch. When she meets a Deity from a different campaign setting, the Deity perceives Ordana as a rank 18 Greater Deity.

What is Divine Rank Zero in Mystara?

Quasi Deities exist in Mystara in a strictly transitional state. When a candidate for immortality is accepted, it becomes a rank zero Immortal, exactly the same as a rank zero Deity. The candidate must succeed it its quest or die trying.

The Immortal ranks are more granular than divine ranks, but they are socially constructed by Immortal society rather than being an objective difference to the divine ranks. A given quantity of sugar is the same whether you calculate it in pounds or kilos. Likewise, Immortals assign their own ranks Immortal ranks to Deities when they come across them. For example, a Mystara Immortal meeting the 18th divine rank Shar from the Forgotten Realms setting will perceive her Immortal rank as a 33rd ranked Hierarch.

Immortals are focused on Mystara because most of them came from that planet. Its also possible that the Old Ones have programmed the Immortals to take less interest in the rest of the multiverse. Certainly no Immortal is bothering with the Blood War or other planar controversies. Nor are the Immortals of Mystara bothered by Deities from elsewhere. The Immortals are quite tight knit and do not tolerate interference from outside. Not even the Entropic Immortals tolerate interlopers. If Mystara is to be destroyed, it will be by hand of the Entropic Immortals, not some foreign Deity like Tharzidun.