afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Tzardok]

You know, for a second I was expecting a Hoover or other type joke, but you named a real being!

Good sir, I would never joke about Sun Sing. He is a gentleman... elemental... void-thingy of culture. You can tell from his alliterative name and title.

[Dalmosh]

Rilmani tend to avoid acting in the open, and overt military activity would likely be a last ditch option for them.

Fiend Folio describes Ferrumachs as "countless" in number, and notes that Aurumachs tend to deploy them as mysterious phalanxes of knights in disguise tasked to nudge a battlefield in the direction most befitting the balance. That seems like it would be more relevant on the Prime (in a Lord of the Rings type scenario) than on the Great Wheel (trying to out-Yugoloth the Yugoloths in the Blood War?). I believe older Planescape sources specified that Rilmani were extremely limited at acting on the Prime, generally acting by dispatching higher leveled solo agents to influence events involving other exemplars - more subtly from behind the scenes.

Ferrumach soldiers don't seem very subtle; they're frontline assault shock cavalry who don't even have training in bluff or disguise.

I could see a defensive heavy cavalry legion being more effective in a dead magic zone, but this still doesn't seem like a particularly effective use of this legion. The standard ferrumach can't even airwalk with its phantom steed. If you can't fly, you're going to struggle against a lot of planar armies strong enough to bother the Rilmani in the first place.

So (outside of single regiments occasionally sent elsewhere) what does this massive ferrumach legion actually do? Is it very well-known and feared on the Great Wheel? Have there been documented battles where Rilmani have fought openly and at strength?

In a broader sense, is a lack of balance between the Alignments dangerous to the Great Wheel itself? Do Archons place any value in what Rilmani do?

[afroakuma]

A purely hypothetical question: The Plane of Shadow is the metaphysical shadow cast by reality. What is the light source?

Egh, in an abstract sense it's sort of "possibility." Shadow being what it is, the source could be said to be the Vast Medium itself, or to abstract it another way, the refraction of potential from the Positive Energy Planes and their cognates in multiple realities. Shadow is after all not only the shadows of things that are, but also of things that are not (Deep Shadow).

I suppose that might be a good afroquestion: is there a reason for Salt being "opposite" of Radiance?

As enderlord noted, it's arguable that the true "opposites" of the Quasi-Elemental Planes are those of the same corresponding element but inverse energy border (Radiance/Ash, Steam/Salt, etc.)

However, if we want to look at it on a purely axial level, Radiance is warmth and light, and is a supply of something into an absence of that something, but too much of it is harmful. Salt is cold, dry, and actively takes from around itself (salt will devour water, for instance). However, life needs a bit of salt to exist. It's not that Radiance needs to be opposed by darkness, but rather that it is the giving of something wondrous in dangerous excess, versus a substance that takes and is very mundane and uninspiring but is ultimately necessary despite the danger. You can apply similar theory to Steam vs. Ash (a substance that has realized its full potential but become potentially harmful and of reduced function in doing so, vs. a substance that represents the loss of potential of a thing, but which represents the possibility to create something new from the old), Lightning vs. Dust (temporary but powerful; long-lasting but of no purpose), and Minerals and Vacuum (an aggregate of the presence of things which is valuable for that aggregate, vs. an absolute emptiness, which is valuable for that emptiness).

So (outside of single regiments occasionally sent elsewhere) what does this massive ferrumach legion actually do?

For the most part, the ferrumachs stand apart in gray fortresses around the perimeter of the Spire's environs. They see action only when the rilmani feel moved to direct intervention in some fashion.

Is it very well-known and feared on the Great Wheel?

It is not, which is sort of the point; the rilmani don't use their legions to establish their own power; they dispatch the ferrumachs only when it serves the Balance to do so, and the victors of the day tend to attribute their success to their own actions, while the losers tend to blame the victors. It's a known trend among mortals that victors have a tendency to overinflate their own contributions to a success, while losers often nurse vengeful thoughts against those who are celebrating. The rilmani don't claim victory and don't hang around for credit or other involvement. Exemplars are much worse at this than mortals, really, because they represent such big ideas that the notion of concerning themselves with the temporary appearance of some meddling tin warriors in a cosmic war is a bit ridiculous to them.

Needless to say, the rilmani like it that way.

Have there been documented battles where Rilmani have fought openly and at strength?

No.

In a broader sense, is a lack of balance between the Alignments dangerous to the Great Wheel itself?

It could be, but it handles self-regulation pretty well most of the time.

Do Archons place any value in what Rilmani do?

Yyyes... to an extent. To archons, the rilmani represent a kind of "necessary evil." They do not appreciate those occasions where the rilmani intervene against the forces of law or good, but they do consider the commitment of the rilmani to a particular ethos its own kind of lawful behavior, which provides a kind of grudging respect. By and large, though, the two rarely interfere with one another.

Now to do a thingy.

Spoiler: The Onnesk Pantheon

Show

The Onnesk Pantheon

On the Prime world of Ashu'an in the remote sphere of Granitespace, a hybrid pantheon exists which is worshipped by all native races on the continent of Onneska, and by extension the border communities on the other two continents, Telwras and Zanpeck. The Onnesk pantheon sees major deities of other racial pantheons worshipped in a particular aspect - for instance, Moradin, on Ashu'an, is not the patron of dwarves, but the god of the forge, of creation, and blacksmiths from all peoples pay him homage. It is constituted of Corellon Larethian, whose portfolio here is limited to the woodlands; Moradin, who is patron of blacksmithing and the forge; Garl Glittergold, god of humor and deception; Gruumsh, god of slaughter and violence; and Yondalla, goddess of hearth and home. In addition, native deities and a few interlopers (Hishrak, Romas, Uria) fill out the pantheon. This pantheon was originally presented in Dragon 283 as the "mix-and-match pantheon" in the article "Do-It-Yourself Deities."

Amora
Lesser Power of Bytopia
Lady of Limerence, Heartsquest, the Witch of the Rose, Muse of the Lovelorn
Alignment: Neutral good
Portfolio: Love, romance, the search for love, quests for love
Divine Realm: Bytopia/Dothion/Stars' Cross, formerly Elysium/Amoria/Stars' Cross
Symbol: A rose with its thorns curled around it
Domains: Air, Charm, Good, Healing
Favored Weapon: Javelin

Amora is the patron of love and lovers, the cast of her javelin pointing the way for the lovelorn to seek out their other half. The second-youngest of the Onnesk pantheon, Amora is on good terms with Yondalla in particular, as well as some of the love deities of other pantheons, though unlike many of her peers she is not chaotic in nature. Indeed, Amora celebrates and protects those already in love, though there are those who remark that she was born of a thrown javelin and has its same personality, being able to pierce the very heart and transfix her target utterly. Amora is able to counsel both patience and passion, for she knows that true love is a matter of the right time, not the right now.

Aos
Lesser Power of Ysgard
Turncoin, Lord of Luxuries, Master of Merchants, Brother of Bandits
Alignment: True neutral
Portfolio: Wealth, profit
Divine Realm: Ysgard/Nidavellir/the Alexandrite City
Symbol: A coin tilted diagonally
Domains: Luck, Trade, Travel, Trickery, Wealth
Favored Weapon: Dagger

Though at one time he had hoped to make his realm part of the Marketplace Eternal on the Outlands, Aos was found wanting by his would-be peers, who refused his petition due to his insatiable need to acquire wealth by any means. A patron of both merchants and thieves, Aos represents an unusual kind of neutrality - he is both lawful where trade is concerned, and chaotic where matters of possession come into play. To Aos, money must flow, and that which does not change hands above the counter deserves to change hands in the shadows. Aos does not concern himself with the loser in any such transaction, as he reasons that what goes around comes around, and through his patronage all will eventually find themselves prosperous in their turn. Of course, some never have their turn before their allotted time elapses... but he's working on that, honest! Aos is depicted both fat and skinny, with a heavy mantle that sometimes covers his crooked grin, and eyes of two different colors - one green, one red. It is said that within the pockets of his cloak and coat can be found anything a mortal would desire.

Argena
Lesser Power of Arborea
The Silver Eye, Sunchaser, Wanderstar, Lady Quicksilver
Alignment: Chaotic good
Portfolio: The moon, healing, rest
Divine Realm: Arborea/Ossa/Island of Silver
Symbol: A crescent moon over water
Domains: Chaos, Good, Healing, Moon, Protection, Trickery
Favored Weapon: Rapier

The wife of Solis, Argena is said in Onnesk myths to forever chase her husband through the skies, where the two rarely meet, for hers is custody over night, rest, and healing, while her husband is the fiery sun. It is said that the moon's phases shift as Argena's search runs afoul of distractions, causing her silvery eye to fully appear only rarely, and that on nights of the new moon she has found her husband and is enjoying her time with him in the manner that couples often do. Argena is known to be a bit of an adventurer, and her clerics follow her example, going forth to protect others from tyranny and offer healing for the deserving and comeuppance for their tormentors. With her husband, Argena is the oldest native deity of the Onnesk pantheon, and she is mother of Coreth, Aos, Amora, and Neleva, as well as an unknown god slain by Hishrak, who has her eternal enmity as a result.

Coreth
Lesser Power of Limbo
Shaper of Life, the Breath of Light, Daughter of Sun and Moon, the Peace and Grace of Life
Alignment: True neutral
Portfolio: Nature
Divine Realm: Limbo/the Primal Garden
Symbol: A clover composed of four rings
Domains: Animal, Balance, Earth, Plant, Sun
Favored Weapon: Handaxe

Perhaps due to her relative youth as nature deities go, Coreth is a bit unusual, for her philosophy is that all things that act as part of nature have their place in it, a philosophy that extends even to creatures such as neogi, beholders, and aboleths. Only a very few things, such as undead or illithids, draw her ire. The rest... well, while the first owlbears on other worlds were the work of mad mages, on Ashu'an they were created by Coreth because she believed they would have a place in nature. This attitude is passed down to her druids and clerics, who receive grudging respect and general safe passage from most intelligent creatures as Coreth does not make demands of them. Coreth is zealous in defense of the natural world and fiercely opposes undead, mind flayers, and outsiders of any kind. Her realm is one vast experiment where the goddess's whims and dreams come forth as new creatures for her to consider bringing forth on the world. Coreth is depicted as a bald young woman with glowing green eyes, wearing four bracelets made of the four elements, typically kneeling in mud or clay that she shapes with her hands.

Hishrak
Lesser Power of Baator
The Venomous, the Traitor Defiant, Great Lord of Power, Hatesworn
Alignment: Lawful evil
Portfolio: Tyranny, subjugation, power
Divine Realm: Baator/Minauros/Atyachari
Symbol: A cobra's head
Domains: Destruction, Evil, Law, Magic, Scalykind, War
Favored Weapon: Kukri

An interloper deity who posed as a power of healing and nature, Hishrak betrayed Solis and Argena, who had charged him with oversight of Telwras in tandem with their only child, devouring the weaker deity and causing a calamity that destroyed the great civilization of that continent. Absolute hunger for power characterizes Hishrak, who plots against every other deity, seeing them all as rivals and prospective sources of new power. The cobra-headed god promotes sorcerer-tyrants and wants to complete his conquest of Telwras, where survivors of the original cataclysm have begun to rebuild a society in the ruins of the ancient lands. Before he can make this move, however, his cult must first ensure that his foothold on Onneska is strong enough to withstand the reprisal of others. Hishrak has no divine allies and is particularly despised by other deities of Baator. His newest plan involves stealing the secrets of the somnolent Abyssal god Merrshaulk in order to create an army of yuan-ti. Hishrak maintains a full-time presence on Ashu'an via a powerful artifact, a ruby known as the Star of Power, which allows the dark god to emanate a direct investiture of his power into a humanoid vessel known only as the God-Tyrant.

Intara
Lesser Power of the Beastlands
Lady of the Uncertain, Farwitness, Mistress of the Chimera Throne, Queen of Silence
Alignment: True neutral
Portfolio: Magic
Divine Realm: Beastlands/Karasuthra/The Chimera Throne
Symbol: Chimera
Domains: Dream, Knowledge, Magic, Trickery
Favored Weapon: Mace

The sometimes capricious goddess of magic, Intara keeps her own counsel and rarely involves herself in matters of the broader pantheon. She is known to have entertained a brief dalliance with Corellon Larethian in ages past, though it was largely a matter of academic curiosity for the goddess, who deemed it "unremarkable" and moved on, rebuking Corellon's gambit to extend his portfolio in the Onnesk pantheon to include elements of magic. Intara is an interloper deity whose shifting allegiances have ended up ensuring that the divine family at the heart of the Onnesk pantheon never fully bands together for any purpose, which indirectly benefits the gods of darkness who never have to face the combined might of the rest of the pantheon as a result. Regardless, Intara is no more aligned with the forces of evil than she is with those of good; she considers Solis and Argena frivolous, the elder gods too narrow in their ambitions, but Hishrak's lust for power often threatens the power and authority of the Chimera Throne. Why Intara chose the chimera as her symbol is not known, but some believe it has to do with the three continents of Ashu'an corresponding to the three heads of her patron beast. In most depictions she appears as a scantily clad or nude woman bearing dragon scales and wings which she wraps around herself like a cloak.

Neleva
Lesser Power of Mechanus
Sister Vengeant, Daughter of Law, Lady of the Wheel, the Fire of Judgment
Alignment: Lawful neutral
Portfolio: Justice, retribution, vengeance
Divine Realm: Mechanus/the Reckoning Wheel
Symbol: A wheel with swords for spokes
Domains: Destruction, Law, Protection, Retribution, Strength
Favored Weapon: Longsword

Youngest of the Onnesk pantheon, Neleva was born from her father's grief and her mother's rage when Hishrak betrayed them and slew her older brother. Filled with Solis's restraint and measure, but turned from true good by Argena's burning wrath, Neleva represents not only impartial justice but also righteous consequence and personal vengeance. Her symbol is a wheel, and her oath says that one day she will capture Hishrak and crush him in the teeth of the cog of Mechanus over which she rules. Though she is depicted bathed in righteous flame in artwork, Neleva has no inherent power over fire - however, dwarves swear that weapons forged in her name carry a sharper edge and find themselves with a superior temper, and to them the association with fire is culturally essential. Neleva has come to find hatred for Gruumsh, though she recognizes that she has limited capacity to act against the senior god except in opposing his followers across Ashu'an. She bears a cold respect for Uria, whose impartial and immovable verdicts may not always feel just but are in essence fair. Neleva is depicted as a brunette warrior with facial scars, wearing splint mail and brandishing a longsword and a round shield.

Romas
Lesser Power of Ysgard
Captain of Carracks, Netfiller, Windrider, Stormstrike
Alignment: Chaotic neutral
Portfolio: Sailors, fishermen, seas, storms
Divine Realm: Ysgard/Ysgard/the Wind Carrack
Symbol: A trident piercing a cloud
Domains: Air, Chaos, Ocean, Storm, Water
Favored Weapon: Trident

The wild god of the seas, Romas is an interloper god associated with fierce weather, invited by Argena to join the pantheon in response to the complaints of her husband that she made the tides too uncertain. Sailors note that this was less a solution and more of a method of shifting the blame and tweaking the sun god's nose, as Romas is a high-spirited mad corsair of the skies, forever chasing storms with his nets and casting the underwhelming ones down to Ashu'an. Given that he makes his residence on fierce Ysgard, an "underwhelming catch" may still prove to be a colossal typhoon. The Windrider has his moments of malice, but is generally on the side of seafarers and makes his apology known with rich shoals and full nets whenever a storm should do something too catastrophic. Provided he remembers. Romas gets on well with Garl Glittergold and generally ignores Gruumsh, while despising Hishrak for his hunger to subjugate and control all things that are free and wild, and loathing Uria for her attempts to force fate on mortals who should be free. Romas is depicted as a grinning bearded half-orc with wild locks and eyes filled with blue lightning.

Solis
Lesser Power of Celestia
Father of Hope, Lightgiver, the Golden Flame, Archer of Light
Alignment: Lawful good
Portfolio: The sun, farmers, inspiration, courage
Divine Realm: Celestia/Mercuria/Orchards of the Sun
Symbol: An arrow piercing the sun
Domains: Courage, Good, Healing, Law, Strength, Sun
Favored Weapon: Longbow

The patriarch of the native Onnesk gods and husband of Argena, Solis is forever chasing after his wife in the sky, trying to find time with her despite their duties. With his vow to never surrender his post, he cannot yield in the chase to be caught by her, causing Argena no small amount of frustration as her moon must vanish from the skies once a month so that she can spend time with him. She gets him back via a series of pranks that the lawful sun god never sees coming. Solis is a patron of rangers and paladins, but other warriors look to the rest of his family for worship, considering the stolid and paternal deity too concerned with peace for their liking. Solis gets on with Moradin and Yondalla has a tolerant dynamic with Corellon and Garl Glittergold, while Gruumsh he considers valuable as an example of how not to live. Uria is a member of the pantheon at his instigation, with some believing the goddess had an affair with him in an ancient time and is blackmailing him. The truth according to his church is that Solis wanted to establish history and purpose in the world, which necessitated a death deity to ensure change, progress, and renewal. As this sounds more like his wife's attitude, some suggest that it was Argena, not Solis, that had the affair. Solis is depicted as a man of roughly 50, with a clean-shaven lantern jaw, reddish hair going silvery at the temples, and comfortable leather garb.

Uria
Lesser Power of Acheron
Crowngiver, the Ashen Lady, Maiden of History's Veil, She Who Sets The Course
Alignment: Neutral evil
Portfolio: Death, ruin, fate, legacy, longevity
Divine Realm: Acheron/Thuldanin/Hall of the Crowned
Symbol: Crowned skull
Domains: Death, Destruction, Evil, Fate, Nobility
Favored Weapon: Ranseur

Part of a loose trinity in the pantheon opposite Yondalla and anchored by Coreth, Uria is a goddess associated with the trappings of royalty, for she is said to strike the course of a mortal's life at the hour of their birth with her unfailing ranseur. Known as a cold and unfeeling goddess, she is venerated by those of a dark bent who wish mastery over the powers of death and undeath, but equally she is propitiated by those hoping to better their station and willing to pay any price to do so, and appeased in offerings from those who hold great station in life and fear that she will bring them ruin. Her church are custodians of great tomes of history, and she alone among the powers of evil holds a great and prominent place in civilized society, for her "evil" manifests more as amorality, dispassion, and merciless disposition. Uria has no need for deep plots or active malice; fate and history are within her gift, and she is darkly confident that all will fall under her sway given time. Uria is depicted as a young, slender, pretty but unsmiling woman with blonde hair, carrying a heavy black tome and a pen that shifts to become a great ranseur. Crowns hang from the waist sash of her gown, and the bony fingers of skeletons form its fringe.

[enderlord99]

Just to double-check: the only way to be immune to an Obyrith's Form of Madness is to have the Obyrith subtype yourself, right?

Or are Satut also immune to it?

[Bohandas]

Just to double-check: the only way to be immune to an Obyrith's Form of Madness is to have the Obyrith subtype yourself, right?

IIRC it's generally sufficient to be any chaotic evil outsider or immune to mind-influencing effects.

[Silly Name]

A few questions on the Ancient Brethren and Vecna:

How much credence should be given to the claim that the Lady of Pain is one of them? Jazirian and Ahriman seem, along with the Serpent, to form a theme of serpentine/draconic members of this "pantheon" while the Lady... doesn't. Still, it seems like an interesting theory.

On that topic, how do you feel about the story told in Guide to Hell regarding Asmodeus' origins and identity as Ahriman? I personally prefer it to other versions, but your mileage may vary, of course.

What are the odds the Serpent is actually just a product of Vecna's madness? How do the Ancient Brethren fit in established cosmology and history of the Wheel?

Has there ever been a definitive statement on how Vecna achieved lichdom? Was it the Serpent who taught him the ritual?

What's the relationship between Vecna and the Serpent like after the Arch-Lich achieved godhood? Does the Serpent still "speak" to Vecna, or...?

[Tzardok]

There was a discussion on Vecna and the Serpent in the 7th Planar Questions Thread. It starts here.

But the gist is this:

The "Ancient Brethren" are the product of a misreading between Vecna Reborn and Die, Vecna, Die! on the part of the authors of the latter. The term was not originally intended to refer to the Serpent at all, but rather to Vecna's ancestors, a people also known as the Ur-Flan.

My take is that the Serpent, given Vecna's history and its own characteristics, is most likely a vestige, a truly rare one at that, and that the Whispered One was in his early youth a binder. If pact magic was the secret practice passed down by Mazzel, it might explain her condemnation and execution for "witchcraft" - she was unable to prevent herself from displaying the sign of a patron.

[redking]

What are the odds the Serpent is actually just a product of Vecna's madness?

I think the designers intention is to leave the Serpent's existence as an open question. Here is a possibility that I haven't seen discussed before - Vecna IS the Serpent. The Serpent is Vecna in the future, guiding himself paradoxically into the future.

[Silly Name]

I think the designers intention is to leave the Serpent's existence as an open question. Here is a possibility that I haven't seen discussed before - Vecna IS the Serpent. The Serpent is Vecna in the future, guiding himself paradoxically into the future.

That's certainly an interesting idea! May make it canon in a few games.

[afroakuma]

A few questions on the Ancient Brethren and Vecna:

How much credence should be given to the claim that the Lady of Pain is one of them? Jazirian and Ahriman seem, along with the Serpent, to form a theme of serpentine/draconic members of this "pantheon" while the Lady... doesn't. Still, it seems like an interesting theory.

If this is a theory you wish to adhere to, one thought is that the Lady might be a third serpent, of neutrality, to go along with Jazirian and Ahriman, and that the body of a serpent biting its own tail would very much resemble some kind of vast ring...

Now that said, I give the whole thing absolutely zero credence, but it's open-ended.

On that topic, how do you feel about the story told in Guide to Hell regarding Asmodeus' origins and identity as Ahriman? I personally prefer it to other versions, but your mileage may vary, of course.

I don't buy into it, but again, your mileage may vary. It's not considered canonical to answers in this thread.

What are the odds the Serpent is actually just a product of Vecna's madness? How do the Ancient Brethren fit in established cosmology and history of the Wheel?

As noted in what Tzardok quoted, the whole "Ancient Brethren" thing is a misreading that propagated through a few modules. I don't believe the Serpent was Vecna's own madness (at least not originally, though doubtless that's blended in there somewhere), but rather a kind of ancient and unknown vestige.

Has there ever been a definitive statement on how Vecna achieved lichdom? Was it the Serpent who taught him the ritual?

There was... in 5E. That said, it's not a terrible answer, so I'm inclined to adopt it - he was provided the ritual by Orcus himself.

What's the relationship between Vecna and the Serpent like after the Arch-Lich achieved godhood? Does the Serpent still "speak" to Vecna, or...?

I don't recall seeing any references to the Serpent continuing to have contact with Vecna now that he's a full deity rather than a demipower. I suspect that one way or another, Vecna has severed himself from the entity, though whether that was voluntary or a function of becoming a deity is unknown. My guess is that as a deity he recognized how dangerous it was to continue to bind a vestige to his own essence and that there was a substantial risk of something calamitous happening if he didn't. It's quite possible that the god Vecna we have now is actually some kind of hybrid of the original lich and the Serpent and that he was too late - in a moment of weakness after he was ejected from Sigil, the Serpent struck, and while neither won, the Serpent came away with much more than Vecna wanted to give.

[Silly Name]

If this is a theory you wish to adhere to, one thought is that the Lady might be a third serpent, of neutrality, to go along with Jazirian and Ahriman, and that the body of a serpent biting its own tail would very much resemble some kind of vast ring...

Now that said, I give the whole thing absolutely zero credence, but it's open-ended.

Definitely an interesting take. It's not so much as a theory I want to adhere to, and more an obscure bit of lore I wanted to examine. It definitely has been fascinating me for some time, however.

As noted in what Tzardok quoted, the whole "Ancient Brethren" thing is a misreading that propagated through a few modules. I don't believe the Serpent was Vecna's own madness (at least not originally, though doubtless that's blended in there somewhere), but rather a kind of ancient and unknown vestige.

I'm a bit sad to hear that because the whole idea seemed interesting. The Serpent as a vestige however is also quite the cool idea, since I've wanted to delve into Binding for a while but none of my players ever roll up a Binder. Who knows, if they ever do I may make them run into this strange being.

It's quite possible that the god Vecna we have now is actually some kind of hybrid of the original lich and the Serpent and that he was too late - in a moment of weakness after he was ejected from Sigil, the Serpent struck, and while neither won, the Serpent came away with much more than Vecna wanted to give.

Uh, this is definitely vying to become my headcanon now.

Btw, does this mean Vecna was also a Binder on top of a Wizard? His mom being one is definitely something I could agree with, and I guess it does fit Vecna's obsession with secret and hidden things, even if he only ever bound himself to the Serpent.

[afroakuma]

Definitely an interesting take. It's not so much as a theory I want to adhere to, and more an obscure bit of lore I wanted to examine. It definitely has been fascinating me for some time, however.

It's definitely interesting lore, but my own take is that it's one of the many rumors that Asmodeus has allowed out into the Planes to obscure his true history. It does have some grains of truth to it - he definitely was an ancient being of Law, and definitely did fall, but it omits that Asmodeus is provably a baatezu and the ancient baatorians supersede him as a more foundational form of evil in the Nine Hells.

I'm a bit sad to hear that because the whole idea seemed interesting. The Serpent as a vestige however is also quite the cool idea, since I've wanted to delve into Binding for a while but none of my players ever roll up a Binder. Who knows, if they ever do I may make them run into this strange being.

Personally I don't know what it would really end up doing if it were true - it doesn't actually end up going anywhere, all it suggests is that beings we already know of are a kind of super-ancient group that... doesn't collaborate, doesn't deal with one another, possesses vastly differing power levels ranging from "mere god" to "lynchpin of the cosmos," and has no central agenda or purpose of any kind. That's Marvel Comics writing - "here are an even bigger and more ominous group of omniscient omnipotent watchers from afar who do nothing!"

Uh, this is definitely vying to become my headcanon now.

Btw, does this mean Vecna was also a Binder on top of a Wizard? His mom being one is definitely something I could agree with, and I guess it does fit Vecna's obsession with secret and hidden things, even if he only ever bound himself to the Serpent.

Most likely, Mazzel was an actual trained and practiced binder in keeping with ancient Ur-Flan traditions, and Vecna was... neither of those things. He picked up bits and bobs in his childhood from Mazzel, but he'd be like... Bnd1/Wiz19 if you actually looked at his 20th-level build, or possibly even Wiz20 with some kind of feat allowing him to bind a single vestige. He's never been one to run around binding, say, Andromalius or Haagenti or the like. Odds are that he spent most of his life (and potentially a good portion of his undeath) believing his pact with the Serpent was just a form of ancient magic his mother passed down as his heritage, as opposed to understanding pact magic in a broader sense. He almost certainly knows now... but as my above suggestion indicates, "now" may be much too late...

[Bohandas]

Why does the elemental plane of fire have a surface? The other five primary inner planes are continuous blocks of their element, extending forever in all three dimensions. Fire alone has a division between land and sky. Why?

[Khedrac]

Why does the elemental plane of fire have a surface? The other five primary inner planes are continuous blocks of their element, extending forever in all three dimensions. Fire alone has a division between land and sky. Why?

As far as I am aware fire is exactly the same as the other elemental planes in this respect. What they do all have, however, is enclosures of other elements within them - pockets of air, earth, fire or water (or possibly para- or quasi- elements). As such these enclosures are often the focus for permanent structures - so in the planes of Air and Water (and Fire?) lumps of earth enable the building of more complex permanent structures than are otherwise possible (pockets of Air do the same for the plane of Earth).

So references to a "sky" in the plane of Fire (I am guessing that this is in relation to the City of Brass) presumably refer to an immense pocket of Air that forms a "sky" for all the points on its surface.

On other possibility is that the elements, especially Fire, don't just form in one type of matter (gas, solid, liquid) in the planes - so on the plane of Fire you can have structures built on solid fire with a lake of liquid fire lapping at the gates and a sky of gaseous fire above them.
Of course, this approach is easy for water (ice, water and fog) but hard for earth (magma/ooze and err, not sure what the gaseous form should be) but these forms usually to us mentally require the involvement of another element to change the temperature or nature of the base element (usually heat or cold).
And if you want to invoke RL physics, a flame is usually a gas heated to the plasma state (i.e. stripped ions) so the problem in the plane of Fire is not the sky, it is the ground - as in the plane of Air the default state is effectively gas.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The thing is, fire is not an element in the sense that earth, water and air are. Earth is a combination of several minerals, air is a combination of several gases, water is just water, but in the D&D universe, it's a combination of several liquids (just mostly water). Fire is a phenomenon, it's the light and radiations emitted by some heated matter, and the chemical reaction that oxydizes it. In that sense, anything can "be" fire. If something is just hot enough that it starts radiating and getting consumed, then it is on fire. Fire is just energy, and since a plane only made of energy doesn't make sense, it becomes "like the Prime, but with so much energy and heat everywhere that everything is on constantly on fire".

I even suspect that in the D&D universe, since elemental planes tend to spread into other planes through portals and "elemental bubbles", the only reason why everything can move and has energy to begin with is because the Elemental Plane of Fire spewed just enough energy to ignite a few things. Like stars, or the Big Bang.

[Tzardok]

"A plane made of energy doesn't make sense"? And what are the Energy Planes then? Chopped liver?

[Batcathat]

"A plane made of energy doesn't make sense"? And what are the Energy Planes then? Chopped liver?

Welcome to the Demiplane of Chopped Liver – the worst smelling place in the Multiverse!

[Beni-Kujaku]

"A plane made of energy doesn't make sense"? And what are the Energy Planes then? Chopped liver?

Point taken ^^ Though the Positive Plane is not really the most interesting place in the cosmology, since the whole concept is "so much life that it is death", and the Negative Energy Plane does have some undead that "live" there and can build their lair in the plane.

[Efrate]

Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect. Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys. Or if undead somehow leak negative energy or acts as vectors of a sort, which begs the of question about why with the sheer amount of undead there are and them being effectively immortal, why have catastrophic entropy events not happened on prime with semi regular frequency.

I know the answer is because wotc/tsr did not think through stuff and how it applies, but it does create an interesting thought exercise. Especially despite most authors of game materials seem to push the narrative that negative energy is evil and positive good, despite both being just another force like earth or air that makes up the universe.

[Silly Name]

Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect. Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys. Or if undead somehow leak negative energy or acts as vectors of a sort, which begs the of question about why with the sheer amount of undead there are and them being effectively immortal, why have catastrophic entropy events not happened on prime with semi regular frequency.

Most undead seem to have a need/want to feed on the living and their life force in various ways. This parasitic nature may explain why they can't overflow on Negative Energy the same way living beings can burst out from too much Positive Energy.

Most undead creatures are "effectively immortal" only in theory: a zombie or a skeleton doesn't exactly have a long unlife expectancy, and very few creatures live more than a few centuries.

[Bohandas]

As far as I am aware fire is exactly the same as the other elemental planes in this respect. What they do all have, however, is enclosures of other elements within them - pockets of air, earth, fire or water (or possibly para- or quasi- elements). As such these enclosures are often the focus for permanent structures - so in the planes of Air and Water (and Fire?) lumps of earth enable the building of more complex permanent structures than are otherwise possible (pockets of Air do the same for the plane of Earth).

"The 'ground' beneath one's feet is made of heavier flame, ash, and debris, but it provides footing similar to the ground on the Material Plane." -Manual of the Planes 3e pg 74

The Elemental Plane of Fire has a relatively firm surface, making ground-based movement akin to walking across flaming coals. The coals themselves are only slightly cooler pieces of elemental fire, and often a traveler sinks ankle-deep into the flaming mire of the plane. Flying creatures find the atmosphere above this surface to be thin but usable. Nonnatives find their fly speed halved and maneuverability reduced by one grade when flying on the Elemental Plane of Fire" -Manual of the Planes 3e pg 75

[Thurbane]

Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect. Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys.

My experience in 3E has been the opposite - most things aimed at good beings (PrCs, feats, spells, items) are usually mechanically better than those aimed at evil, with a few exceptions.

[Sharqking]

I know the stars and constellations on a crystal spheres are portals to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, but are the suns/stars that are in a sphere also a portal? Or house a portal inside them?


If one were to have a large permenant portal to the Plane of Radiance underground (in like massive cavern or something), would it function essentially like an underground sun?

[Tzardok]

I know the stars and constellations on a crystal spheres are portals to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, but are the suns/stars that are in a sphere also a portal? Or house a portal inside them?


If one were to have a large permenant portal to the Plane of Radiance underground (in like massive cavern or something), would it function essentially like an underground sun?

Not all stars are portals ("vortices"), some are bits of elemental fire floating around or giant glowing insects or whatever.

It is generally believed that many suns are connected to Fire or Radiance, yes.

I don't think you'll find many connections to Radiance underground. IIRC a proper vortex can only form in places where the respective element is already prevalent: gates to Earth in caves, gates to Air on windswept peaks, gates to Water underwater, gates to Fire in volcanoes. I'm not sure where you would find a connection to Radiance, but underground...

[unseenmage]

Not all stars are portals ("vortices"), some are bits of elemental fire floating around or giant glowing insects or whatever.

It is generally believed that many suns are connected to Fire or Radiance, yes.

I don't think you'll find many connections to Radiance underground. IIRC a proper vortex can only form in places where the respective element is already prevalent: gates to Earth in caves, gates to Air on windswept peaks, gates to Water underwater, gates to Fire in volcanoes. I'm not sure where you would find a connection to Radiance, but underground...

Perhaps in a place already bathed in luminescence or glowing radiation or ssomething?

The Underdark book has some sources of light for in the deep but I don't think any of them are Plane of Radiance gate material.

If there was something relatively natural that glowed at sun-like intensity I would imagine it to be a verybadthing to have trapped in an enclosed chamber of stone and earth.
At the very least I would have it be Geiger counter breakingly radioactive.

[Sharqking]

I don't think you'll find many connections to Radiance underground. IIRC a proper vortex can only form in places where the respective element is already prevalent: gates to Earth in caves, gates to Air on windswept peaks, gates to Water underwater, gates to Fire in volcanoes. I'm not sure where you would find a connection to Radiance, but underground...

Duly noted, thank you!
I was more wondering how such a thing would look (and more specifically how it produces light) then if it is possible.

Like, would it produce light like a star, an omnidirectional type of source that never dulls? Or would it be more like a flashlight, where the rim of the vortex starts off as the boundary but it expands out like a cone? Or would it be a strobe effect like a rave, with the lights moving and being constantly different colors? Or a real bright aurora borealis?

Is the Plane of Radiance just light (barring pockets from other planes)? Or is it a "tangible light", like a plasma or something? The Inner Planes 2e book does mention "solid light" for the Refuge of Color, but only mentions it and doesn't go into details.

[afroakuma]

Why does the elemental plane of fire have a surface? The other five primary inner planes are continuous blocks of their element, extending forever in all three dimensions. Fire alone has a division between land and sky. Why?

It's important to note that the others also have unusual pockets of their own "stuff" as it were. We just don't usually consider it because it's easy to conceptualize "nothing but air," "nothing but water," and "nothing but earth." However, the Elemental Plane of Air has liquid air, solid air, crystalline air, all kinds of exotic forms of elemental air. The same is true of the rest. Fire, in turn, has "solid fire" and "airy fire" as two of the more pedestrian kinds of local whatnottery. Note that this does not in any way mean that they are super common - that's the catch, that because our attention gravitates toward those sites which are innately more accessible to the kinds of creatures we pay attention to, we hear more about the City of Brass than, say, the Plain of Blue Infernos, which looks just like another huge rolling sheet of flame without solid surface except it's blue. To the locals, it's interesting in the same way that a field of blue flowers breaks up the monotony of a landscape of grassy plains, but to Primes, it's just a different colored part of the hellsoup of barbecue and pain that will kill you super dead and you can't walk on it because it's just pure fire.

The conceit of the Elemental Plane of Fire being more conventionally "surface terrain + air" is a later edition thing and not germane to this thread. I promise you that as far as 3.5 and before are concerned, Fire is absolutely a hellsoup and we just tend to pay attention to the croutons.

Point taken ^^ Though the Positive Plane is not really the most interesting place in the cosmology, since the whole concept is "so much life that it is death", and the Negative Energy Plane does have some undead that "live" there and can build their lair in the plane.

There are still sites of interest in each, but they do tend to get less development, yeah.

Interestingly the negative energy planes doesn't have the overflow equals death for undead that one might expect. Or them rotting away to nothing. I wonder if that's another example of "evil" gets all the cool toys. Or if undead somehow leak negative energy or acts as vectors of a sort, which begs the of question about why with the sheer amount of undead there are and them being effectively immortal, why have catastrophic entropy events not happened on prime with semi regular frequency.

I know the answer is because wotc/tsr did not think through stuff and how it applies, but it does create an interesting thought exercise. Especially despite most authors of game materials seem to push the narrative that negative energy is evil and positive good, despite both being just another force like earth or air that makes up the universe.

Hilariously in terms of "did not think through stuff," undead are actually not in any way harmed by the Positive Energy Plane, and are in fact stupidly hard to destroy there, because RAW as "creatures" they benefit from the fast healing, but as undead they are immune to any effect which requires a Fortitude save (the detonation from being overstuffed) unless it also applies to objects, which the positive-dominant trait does not. RAI, they should pretty much vaporize on the plane.

My experience in 3E has been the opposite - most things aimed at good beings (PrCs, feats, spells, items) are usually mechanically better than those aimed at evil, with a few exceptions.

Hoping to have the chance one day to do some homebrew to steer away from that. I like my goblinoids.

I know the stars and constellations on a crystal spheres are portals to the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Radiance, but are the suns/stars that are in a sphere also a portal? Or house a portal inside them?

Rift moreso than portal, and many are, yes. Stars on a crystal sphere can be many different things, however; by no means are all of them or even most of them rifts to Radiance.

If one were to have a large permenant portal to the Plane of Radiance underground (in like massive cavern or something), would it function essentially like an underground sun?

It could - again, more likely for a rift than a portal. Picture a rift as an actual hole in the wall where one was not supposed to be, whereas a portal is a doorway and at the bare minimum has a curtain of beads or those thin plastic slats or something clearly delineating that "you are now moving from point A to point B and some things shouldn't."

I was more wondering how such a thing would look (and more specifically how it produces light) then if it is possible.

The fun thing about portals is that they can look like absolutely anything, they do not have to follow the standard template of "two-dimensional disc that seems like a window to another world." A portal could be a shallow pool, a pure iron sphere floating in midair, an obelisk, a patch of grass where the wind whips up with greater ferocity. A rift will always look more like a window because it's not stable; it's a hole between two places. A rift could be omnidirectional, it could blink in and out erratically, it could be swirly and coruscating; take your pick really. Whatever you want it to look like, it can do.

Is the Plane of Radiance just light (barring pockets from other planes)? Or is it a "tangible light", like a plasma or something? The Inner Planes 2e book does mention "solid light" for the Refuge of Color, but only mentions it and doesn't go into details.

Most of it is just heat and light - rather intensely for both. It's not plasma, though there are places where you would find plasma, certainly. There are also places where you could find glowing liquid that behaves like water, or as you noted above, "solid light." These are quite uncommon, however.

[Caelestion]

As I recall, the borderlands between Radiance and Mineral are called the Glowing Lands and are genuinely radioactive, in the very modern sense of that term.

[Thurbane]

As I recall, the borderlands between Radiance and Mineral are called the Glowing Lands and are genuinely radioactive, in the very modern sense of that term.

Interesting. Maybe you can use that whacky radiation effect table from RttTotF.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

As I recall, the borderlands between Radiance and Mineral are called the Glowing Lands and are genuinely radioactive, in the very modern sense of that term.

Close, it's the Glowing Dunes between Radiance and Magma:

If a traveler opts to change course just a bit, he eventually reaches the quasiplane of Radiance. Before he does, however, he passes through one of the deadliest places in all the Inner Planes: the Glowing Dunes. This is a region of rolling hills first made up of volcanic ash. Nearer the quasiplane of Radiance, the dust becomes more metallic and gradually begins to radiate light and energy. Whatever the nature of these magical emanations, they present a deadly threat to every living thing.

Those who travel through the area must make a saving throw vs. death magic each day. Any poor creature who fails this roll becomes afflicted with a horrible disease or curse (no one knows which for sure). Before long, nausea sets in. This is followed by blistering skin, hair loss, bleeding gums, blindness, and countless other nasty symptoms before the victim dies in 3d20 painful days. All in all, a more unpleasant death would be difficult to imagine.

No cure, not even a magical one, is known to help, though rumor has it that a loam found in the plane of Earth or a plant growing deep within the plane of Water may alleviate the condition before the victim dies.