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    Post afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    We emerge from the three-year reign of the seventh thread to found the eighth thread of me jabbering on about D&D lore both canon and afrocanon. The last seven threads have covered quite a lot of ground, and I hope this one continues the long tradition of fun discussion, random homebrew intrusions, investigating the most minute odds and ends of the D&D mythos, the occasional full campaign concept, and a minimum of decapitation threats.

    If this is your first visit to my threads, be prepared for loads and loads of terminology, new ideas and more than a little narcissistic grandstanding as I attempt to clear the hurdles of forty-odd years of fluff buildup. There are a lot of regulars, but we like new faces. A cursory attempt to search the past threads before asking your question would be appreciated, since 1) we've got the Search Thread function back and 2) I get a lot of repeat questions. If it happens again, it happens, but if it can be avoided then so much the better.

    Once again, the fundamentals:

    Basic Rules

    • We'll be going with canonical information wherever possible, wherein this refers to all sources from 3.5 and prior. 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned, and I will actively refuse to answer questions pertaining to 4E fluff.

    • I'll conjecture on demand and supply tidbits from my own extensive work on the Planes where relevant, but these will always be pointed out.

    • 99% of the time, I'm not interested in breaking down sources. That requires a lot of digging about more often than not, and it's a very big library that I'm drawing from. If you really feel the need to contest something, try to be nice about it; I don't like having to plunge into the boxes to find the right book or magazine unless I'm not sure of something.

    • I assume all or nearly all published settings to be connected in the same multiverse; this means both Spelljammer and Planescape, as well as worlds that try to remain separate such as Athas and Eberron, are all part of the same ball of wax as far as I'm concerned. Mystara is also considered included, and its cosmological uniqueness is interpreted through the lens of the Great Wheel.

    • There are very few sources that don't bring something to the table, but sometimes what's written has been done with rather more expedient and financial goals in mind than staying true to canon or respecting the work of past authors. In particular, the Races series from 3.5 notoriously threw out the old racial pantheons and started over with a lot of similar deities. Where this sort of laziness has been evident, older sources are considered to prevail within the context of this thread.

    • This thread has nothing to do with Pathfinder and I'm not particularly capable of (or interested in) answering questions involving Golarion. All questions will be addressed as D&D questions using the 3.5 edition rules to the extent possible.

    Core Concepts

    • The planes as will be most commonly acknowledged in this thread include: the Material Plane; the Ethereal, Astral and Shadow Planes; the Positive and Negative Energy Planes; the Elemental Planes of Air, Earth, Fire and Water; the Para-Elemental Planes of Ice, Magma, Ooze and Smoke; the Quasi-Elemental Planes of Ash, Dust, Lightning, Minerals, Radiance, Salt, Steam and Vacuum; the seventeen major Outer Planes; and the Far Realm. Other planes that may be mentioned with some degree of frequency but lie within the realm of speculation are the Ordial Plane, the Planes of Cordance, the Semi-Elemental Planes, the Near Realm, the Vast Medium and any of those not already named that are located in the 3.X Manual of the Planes, as well as demiplanes.

    • The term exemplar or exemplar race may be used a great deal in this thread. These terms refer to the major entities of pure alignment that reside on the Outer Planes: archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaad, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, modrons and rilmani.

    • When discussing worlds of the Material Plane, I often turn to referencing their spatial location on a star chart made for Spelljammer. As there is no official chart to consult, I work off of an extensively detailed and thoroughly researched fanmade chart by Nerik (warning: huge). This chart represents the Arcane Inner Flow quadrant of the primary "galaxy" of Spelljammer. This "galaxy" is known as arcane space after the beings that ruthlessly control its spelljamming helm supply and the secret of the lanes that connect the heart of the region to its border, known as the Arcane Outer Flow or AOF. If I note something as being on or near to the AOF, it represents a significant distance from the center of arcane space and from the most well-known worlds in this quadrant (Oerth, Krynn and Toril).

    Zargon is not an ancient baatorian, and I'm not engaging on the topic yet again in this thread. It's been done to death already, search it up.

    • Three years the last one was active for, how did that even happen?

    • And in response to your unspoken question, no; I don't ever shut up.

    Happy questioning!
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    • Three years the last one was active for, how did that even happen?
    Oh, how many times did it look like the thread was sinking, unbuoyed by curiosity. But in truth, it just lurked beneath the surface, waiting... and snatching up any passing question morsel. Like a shark. That's not the grin smiley, that's the "I'm gonna eat you" smiley.

    By the by, do we have any idea where the dead power Auppenser did have his divine realm?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    By the by, do we have any idea where the dead power Aupenser did have his divine realm?
    We know the name of the realm was The Tranquil Grounds, but since Auppenser was created in 3rd Edition, placing him conclusively is a bit more challenging. Either Arcadia or Mechanus, and I'm inclined toward the latter.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    We know the name of the realm was The Tranquil Grounds, but since Auppenser was created in 3rd Edition, placing him conclusively is a bit more challenging. Either Arcadia or Mechanus, and I'm inclined toward the latter.
    How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious.
    Auppenser was the most revered deity in Jhaamdath, a human nation on Faerûn. When it was destroyed in a war with neighbouring elves, most of his followers lost their faith. Auppenser dwindled over time from lack of worship. That was over a thousand years ago. I don't know exactly when or how long; I don't have my timeline book with me.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Is there any additional information on the beholder city Ootul beyond what's in Lords of Madness?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    How did Auppenser become a dead deity anyway? I'm curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    Is there any additional information on the beholder city Ootul beyond what's in Lords of Madness?
    Ooltul? Oh sure. Underdark and Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark both mention it. I'd suggest running through the overview on the Forgotten Realms wiki.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzardok View Post
    Auppenser was the most revered deity in Chamdaath, a human nation on Faerûn. When it was destroyed in a war with neighbouring elves, most of his followers lost their faith. Auppenser dwindled over time from lack of worship. That was over a thousand years ago. I don't know exactly when or how long; I don't have my timeline book with me.
    Jhaamdath was destroyed by a magical tidal wave in -255 DR, creating the Vilhon Reach, some 1600 years before the 1358-1372 DR timeframe of 3E Faerûn. This was notably after the Fall of Netheril and is one of the first uses of epic magic after Mystra's Ban.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Since most vestiges have a sense of immense age to them, is there something preventing the formulation of newer ones, like something closing the avenue to have you exist in near space? I'm open to afrocannon here, I cannot think of anything that would or could but since ToM was end of 3.5 and got little support was wondering at your musings. Something like a loophole closed by the powers that be.

    Also, one of the elder evils is seperate in mind and body, generally inaccessible (I do not own EE anymore so apologies for being hazy), and generally need super specific rite to bring the bits together, is it possible those bits have been shunted into near space? It makes sense to me to be in an inaccessible place that doesn't exist in a way we can comprehend.

    Also and completely random, could near space be a 'home's to some draeden? Again the whole not existing thing but still existing. I am trying to parse a bunch of half remembered bits into something cohesive to run with an idea I had rather than just fiat.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Were "Chamdaath" and "Jhaamdath" the same place or different ones?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by enderlord99 View Post
    Were "Chamdaath" and "Jhaamdath" the same place or different ones?
    It's just Jhaamdath, "Chamdaath" is a misspelling, probably influenced by the region later becoming known as Chondath.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    Since most vestiges have a sense of immense age to them, is there something preventing the formulation of newer ones, like something closing the avenue to have you exist in near space? I'm open to afrocannon here, I cannot think of anything that would or could but since ToM was end of 3.5 and got little support was wondering at your musings. Something like a loophole closed by the powers that be.

    Also, one of the elder evils is seperate in mind and body, generally inaccessible (I do not own EE anymore so apologies for being hazy), and generally need super specific rite to bring the bits together, is it possible those bits have been shunted into near space? It makes sense to me to be in an inaccessible place that doesn't exist in a way we can comprehend.

    Also and completely random, could near space be a 'home's to some draeden? Again the whole not existing thing but still existing. I am trying to parse a bunch of half remembered bits into something cohesive to run with an idea I had rather than just fiat.
    First, it's the Near Realm, not near space. Vestiges aren't chilling in orbit.

    Second, at least three of the vestiges in ToM were young. Acererak's death happened during 2e, in the adventure Return to the Tomb of Horrors. Orcus' death and resurrection are from the adventure Dead Gods, which happened close to the end of 2e. Geryon still had stats as a living being in 3.0 (in a web-enhancement for, I think, Manual of the Planes or Book of Vile Darkness), meaning that his fading happened most likely between that one and Fiendish Codex II in 3.5. There is no reason to assume that new vestiges couldn't happen in the modern time.

    Third, that Elder Evil you are talking about sounds like Pandorym. It's mind is imprisoned in a crystal, and it's body is hidden in some undisclosed location on the Material Plane, far away from the mind, but still on the same world (and likely the same continent).

    Fourth, Draeden and vestiges aren't very similiar. Vestiges are things that don't exist anymore, but still have an influence. Draeden are non-existence bound into a physical existence. I think it's unlikely that there's a connection. If you are looking for Draeden, you should instead go the far and forgotten corners of the multiverse. For example, there are a few Draeden frozen in the Paraelemental Plane of Ice and the Draeden called Ulgurshek acts as a layer in the Abyss.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Would an illithid elder brain, or group of elder brains, dedicated to extinguishing the sun attempt to awaken, or manipulate surface cults into awakening, Father Lymic as described in Elder Evils? Does that pass the smell test, or would they consider the risk too high?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    Would an illithid elder brain, or group of elder brains, dedicated to extinguishing the sun attempt to awaken, or manipulate surface cults into awakening, Father Lymic as described in Elder Evils? Does that pass the smell test, or would they consider the risk too high?
    A rogue elder brain certainly might, and others might be convinced it's a reasonable plan, at least for a while - but by the time the dead sun reached Severe status, it's likely that conventional illithid communities would consider the Brood to be of significant concern and the method too risky for the goal. Remember that illithids don't care for the Far Realm, and that while they love creating new crossbreeds and modified creatures, it's to serve as thralls - the uncontrolled and infectious Brood would be a source of particular alarm.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by afroakuma View Post
    A rogue elder brain certainly might, and others might be convinced it's a reasonable plan, at least for a while - but by the time the dead sun reached Severe status, it's likely that conventional illithid communities would consider the Brood to be of significant concern and the method too risky for the goal. Remember that illithids don't care for the Far Realm, and that while they love creating new crossbreeds and modified creatures, it's to serve as thralls - the uncontrolled and infectious Brood would be a source of particular alarm.
    That's kind of what I was thinking -- illithids want to turn off the sun for their own comfort. Llymic's 'freezing realm of darkness and madness' might be a bit much for their ordered lifestyle, and if the surface-dwellers are converted into Brood Spawn, they've got a serious food problem; their cities don't carry enough slaves and thralls to feed them well. They need a healthy surface population to raid. Just because it'll work doesn't mean it's a good plan. Ah well; it was a neat idea while it lasted.

    I think in the past you've said that in your played version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the Chosen are depowered; can you elaborate on that a bit, or point me to a place where you've done so before?
    Last edited by QuickLyRaiNbow; 2020-07-21 at 07:29 PM.
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    Question Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    So, randomly came upon the name Epona looking at monsters in the Planar Handbook.

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    Ur’Epona, also known as Epona’s grandchildren, are horselike creatures that can move from plane to plane. Descended through several generations from Epona (a being variously described as a horse-goddess or even the Primal Horse), they derive their power from her.

    Does this goddess (?) get a write-up or mentioned elsewhere?

    Does she have any kind of relationship with Equinals, or with Vhara? Or even the Equiceph race?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickLyRaiNbow View Post
    I think in the past you've said that in your played version of the Forgotten Realms setting, the Chosen are depowered; can you elaborate on that a bit, or point me to a place where you've done so before?
    I'm not entirely sure I have ever elaborated on it, come to think of it...

    The fundamental idea is that the Realms come under threat due to the machinations of Karsus, the extremely-temporary deity of magic, more recently a vestige. A veeeery long-term plan to pull himself back into reality through the Weave is reliant on there being a high concentration of Mystra's power to jack into, which would be Elminster. If he were to do so, Karsus's residual backdoor into the godhead of Mystryl would result in absolute catastrophe for a second time. Of course, Mystra, as a greater goddess, can sense the threat to her power several weeks out, and starts laying plans.

    Ultimately, Elminster chooses to pass of old age, relinquishing his Chosen immortality, and goes peacefully in his sleep after a pleasant meal with his assistant. When the threat doesn't clear, Mystra recalls her power from the other Chosen, and other gods are swift to follow suit, fearful that the willing withdrawal of the goddess of magic must be an indicator of grave danger to their own power (which hey, they are not wrong, there is a chance that any concentration of divine power that large could serve as Karsus's host). With so many individual casters reduced in power, and many of the greater evils (liches, etc.) choosing to flee the sphere entirely and set up shop elsewhere, uncertainty reigns as the greatest arcane powers are concentrated in artifacts and relics of past ages, many of which are in the trapped but now vacant domains of said greater evils.

    The Red Wizards fall back into their towers and fortresses, weakening the magocratic foundations of Thay, as they jockey for scraps of power in the new diminished regime, fearful of a plot by the absent Szass Tam. Bane's forces in the north strike an uneasy peace with the Dalelands with neither side trusting the other. Shar is too cautious to believe Mystra has left a true power vacuum, but in an era of fear and loss, she's already making out like a bandit, so she doesn't care. In the far south, Zakhara's sha'irs quest to other lands to explore the weakening of magic.

    Meanwhile, Talos has discovered that in a time when Shar and her Shadow Weave have backed off, and Bane is down a number of powerful wizards and uberclerics, destruction has a pretty good day. First among the greater powers to be willing to risk committing his own might onto the world once more, he has come with a plan - a plan taking place in a corner of the world so pivotal, yet so obscure, that nobody really saw it coming. In the so-called Utter East, beyond Durpar and the Golden Water, beyond even Ulgarth, the Five Kingdoms are the site of ancient fonts of primal magic, channeled by powerful artifacts known as "bloodforges" that were used in ages past to create living armies of pure magic to wage war on one another. Talos plans to seize the bloodforges and use the most ancient magics of the world to sow destruction and chaos, becoming the preeminent deity of darkness.

    Lastly, a group of terrifying riders cloaked in black, redolent with the stench of the grave, have appeared across the Realms, all of them conducting unusual errands as they gradually converge on the Five Kingdoms, each bearing the symbol of a long-gone Lord of the Dead. The church of Kelemvor investigates these sightings with growing alarm, worried about the possibility that in this age of shadow, Myrkul may yet return.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So, randomly came upon the name Epona looking at monsters in the Planar Handbook.

    Does this goddess (?) get a write-up or mentioned elsewhere?
    Only one mention outside of the monster references that I've seen; it's noted that she's a lesser power or demipower of the Celtic pantheon, and resides in Tir na nOg with them.

    Does she have any kind of relationship with Equinals, or with Vhara?
    Doubtful.

    Or even the Equiceph race?
    Hard no.
    Last edited by afroakuma; 2020-07-21 at 08:36 PM.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    What is the relationship between the Chinese Pantheon's Celestial Bureaucracy and the Celestial Bureaucracy of Kara Tur? Same Celestial Emperor, different functionary gods? Same pantheon with different names? Entirely unrelated?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    What's the history of the Celestial Hebdomad and their role against the archdevils?
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Good to see a new thread from you, Afroakuma!
    I hope that by now you had forgiven me for my older unclear questions and won't object to me asking new ones.

    1) What does the name "Baator" means, or what's it named after in real life? Other planes are named after real\mythological\historical places (Arcadia, Gehenna, Elisium) or self-explanatory (Beastlands, Carceri, Mechanus). Limbo is from Divine Comedy by Dante. But after what Baator is named?

    2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul).

    If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.

    Pretty much the same actually goes for the Snarl from the comic on which site we write.

    Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
    Can a mortal receive such power?

    3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so?
    From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.

    But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
    What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
    What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?

    4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one?
    I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.

    5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-07-23 at 05:37 AM.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.
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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.
    That might be so, but the word "Abyss" does have a meaning - bottomless chasm, and does make associations with something. The word "Baator", as far as I know, doesn't.
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-07-23 at 05:36 AM.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    The names Baator/Baatezu and Tanar'ri were most likely made up of whole cloth during second edition, when TSR pretty frantically tried to remove anything "demonic-looking" for a while due to religious panic.
    That story always cracks me up when I hear it.

    Religious fanatics: "Dungeons and Dragons is satanistic! It's full of demons and angels!"

    TSR: "Demons and angels? What demons and angels? Those are Tana'ri and Aasimon, honest!"

    Religious fanatics: "You are right. That's completly different. Carry on, good citizen."

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    That might be so, but the word "Abyss" does have a meaning - bottomless chasm, and does make associations with something. The word "Baator", as far as I know, doesn't.
    That's exactly what Eldan said, Edreyn. Baator is an invented word, simply for the reason that "Hell" couldn't be used anymore. With "Abyss" one has a degree of seperation to the "hellish" meaning, which grants plausible denieability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    2) There is a now old game Neverwinter Nights 2 and it has a add-on named Mask of the Betrayer. It's pre 4ed and uses standard 3.5 system and cosmology. Yet, the protagonist in this game can consume souls\spirits\whatever there is of powerful creatures and even demigods or dead deities (Myrkul).

    If the player will pursue evil storyline and do evil choices the game ending will say that he became a god-killing abomination and continued eternal devouring of everything or everyone and even gods had to flee to the edges of Multiverse.

    Pretty much the same actually goes for the Snarl from the comic on which site we write.

    Are creatures like this ever mentioned and can exist, at least potentially, in the original vanilla Planescape?
    Can a mortal receive such power?
    Draeden are like that. Some of the Elder Evils in the eponymous book are described like that, but they are overhyped. Tharizdun has an reputation like that, but... who knows?

    3) In the same game, the hero discovers a carcass of Myrkul, floating in the middle of nowhere. Some most devoted worshipers even live on it. And the player can talk and interact with Myrkul. So, the dead deity can't grant spells, but still can talk to those in close vicinity, is it so?
    From older threads of this one I also read that in some cases dead deities can return, in special circumstances.
    Myrkul is a cheating cheater who cheats. His mind is still alive, imprisoned in the Horn Crown.

    But can a deity be eradicated permanently?
    What happened to Aoskar? Does his remains float somewhere in Astral and can be potentially "resurrected" (far from Sigil), or he is gone completely?
    What happened to previous Mystra, Myrkul, Baal and Bane who were killed while being stripped of godhood? Are they completely gone, float in Astral or got afterlives as petitioners as mortals do?
    The Graveyard of the Gods floats in the Astral and is patroled by the Gravekeeper. Aoskar's corpse is there. As far as I know every dead deity has a corpse there.

    4) There are two major endless wars in Multiverse: Blood War and a war between Githyanki and Githzerai. Due to the Rule of the Three, there should also be a third one. Is there one?
    I thought of endless conflicts of Acheron, but I'd say it isn't exactly one big war with constant stalemate.
    I do not see why you consider the skirmishes between the Gith races of equal importance to the Blood War, or even of greater importence than the fighting between the Gith and the illithids, or any of the other "eternal" wars like between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, or Gruumsh and Maglubiyet, or Thrym and Thor, or whoever.

    5) Some long time ago, I asked if Spire is infinite to the depth as well, and you said that it is. Can there be another city, a twin of Sigil in the depth below the Spire? Has it ever been discussed, in the lore, or in real life?
    I don't know, but in my opinion a mirror Sigil (let's call it Rune) shouldn't exist. It infringes on the importance of Sigil as a fulcrum of the multiverse. (I mean, if there is a second Sigil, why did Vecna intruding into Sigil had those grave rammification for the multiverse?) Also, Rune's existence opens up a lot of uncomfortable questions about the Lady.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    As always, answers are interesting and I enjoy reading them. Thanks!

    Religious fanatics: "Dungeons and Dragons is satanistic! It's full of demons and angels!"

    TSR: "Demons and angels? What demons and angels? Those are Tana'ri and Aasimon, honest!"

    Religious fanatics: "You are right. That's completly different. Carry on, good citizen."
    Good one!

    That's exactly what Eldan said, Edreyn. Baator is an invented word, simply for the reason that "Hell" couldn't be used anymore. With "Abyss" one has a degree of seperation to the "hellish" meaning, which grants plausible denieability.
    Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?

    Draeden are like that. Some of the Elder Evils in the eponymous book are described like that, but they are overhyped. Tharizdun has an reputation like that, but... who knows?
    Yes, I remember reading about them in those threads. But can a mortal become something like this? I saw the name Tharizdun before, but don't know who he is.

    The Graveyard of the Gods floats in the Astral and is patroled by the Gravekeeper. Aoskar's corpse is there. As far as I know every dead deity has a corpse there.
    Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?

    I do not see why you the skirmishes between the Gith races considere of equal importance to the Blood War, or even of greater importence than the fighting between the Gith and the illithids, or any of the other "eternal" wars like between Gruumsh and Corellon Larethian, or Gruumsh and Maglubiyet, or Thrym and Thor, or whoever.
    I am writing about conflicts I know from Torment or lore books. As for illithids, I'd say that the conflict between Githyanki, Githzerai and Illithids is one war, just with three sides instead of two. I honestly don't know what is longer - war between deities you mentioned or war of both Gith races with mind flayers. I just was thinking that Blood War and the war of Gith races can be seen as something similar.

    I'll update my question then: is there any additional eternal wars that aren't between deities, but between races or species? Outside of Acheron.

    I don't know, but in my opinion a mirror Sigil (let's call it Rune) shouldn't exist. It infringes on the importance of Sigil as a fulcrum of the multiverse. (I mean, if there is a second Sigil, why did Vecna intruding into Sigil had those grave rammification for the multiverse?) Also, Rune's existence opens up a lot of uncomfortable questions about the Lady.
    Yup. I wonder if there is or was a Lord of Pain. Maybe he offended Lady who had to flee Rune and create Sigil. Now we know why she is that angry on everyone!

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    Okay, but Gehenna and Limbo are still associated with Hell. Though Gehenna is a real place, it still used as synonym for "Hell". And Limbo is a "zero layer" of Hell according to Dante, and directly described as one. City of Dis and names of Carceri layers are from same source. Why those were left then?
    Do you really think that the sort of bible swinging fanatic who let themselves be fooled by renaming a daemon a yugoloth knows that "Gehenna" is the Jewish counterpart of Hell?

    Yes, I remember reading about them in those threads. But can a mortal become something like this?
    No idea.

    I saw the name Tharizdun before, but don't know who he is.
    I'll just let Afro from the 1st thread do the introductions:
    Quote Originally Posted by Afroakuma
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist
    Speaking of Tharizdun, what exactly is he that makes the other gods quake in there boots?
    A dreadful bore. Seriously, if you ever have dinner with the guy, you'll want to throw him in a Demiplane of Imprisonment too. Doesn't help that he argues about his cut of the bill when the time comes to pay up.

    Oh wait, you meant the other Tharizdun.

    The Dark God, The Ender, He of Eternal Darkness, the Ebon God, the Black Sun, the Patient One, He Who Waits, the Wrongly Held, the Anathema, the Father of Elder Evils, the Author of Wickedness, the Eater of Worlds, the Despised, the Undoer, the Chained God.

    Don't have dinner with him, either.

    Tharizdun is a... well he's a thing. In his current form, he is an intermediate power of divine rank 11, bound within the Demiplane of Imprisonment by a coalition of powerful deities. The power he extends is limited and must frequently be focused through one of his artifacts to be employed; however, his current power is vastly superior to the small number of worshipers he possesses, something that should not be possible.

    Tharizdun is old. Speculation ties him to the Far Realm, and certainly most of his followers are quite insane, but the nature of him doesn't add up. To the learned of the far-off world of Mystara, he might be described as an Immortal of Entropy... but again, it's not a perfect fit. Perhaps the Dark God is no more than any other divinity, only more ardent in his active pursuit of destructive evil... or perhaps he is something that arose in the cosmology that predated the Great Wheel, an infection from out of time that escaped the dying days of an older order.

    Tharizdun is anathematic. His dogma is written thus: "The very threads of existence must be torn asunder, then burned, then the ashes scattered, until all is nothing and no one exists to remember existence." Tharizdun despises existence in each and every one of its permutations.

    Tharizdun is insidious. He has no true allies, but has been linked to the Princes of Elemental Evil in one guise (that of the Elder Elemental Eye) and works with major fiends as his unwitting pawns, including Iuz and Zuggtmoy. For millennia, when Tharizdun's worship was all but dead, a wraithform known only as "the Dark God" lurked in the shadowy reaches of the Outer Planes, spreading nightmares and corruption. This Dark God seeded the black diamond that corrupted the fey goddess now known as the Queen of Air and Darkness. It is now believed that the wraithlike deity was an aspect of Tharizdun, an expression of his malevolence capable of moving outside the Demiplane of Imprisonment and acting as a deity.

    If the Far Realm is likened to chaos despite not being truly of Chaos, then Tharizdun is its counterpart in relation to Evil. Even the most blackhearted gods and sinister fiends would be averse to working with the Chained God if they knew of his involvement in events. That this entity retains so much power within the Demiplane of Imprisonment, and yet can move and operate beyond it in many guises, is what sets him (or it) apart from other elder evils and inspires dread in the gods.
    If one then remembers that this coalition of deities which imprisoned him included virtually all greater powers of Oerth, regardless of alignment, one has quite a nice picture of him.
    And really. Dinner was horrible.

    Now that's interesting, never read about this before. I always imagined dead deities randomly floating in Astral, without any specific place, center of pattern. Where I can read more about Graveyard and Gravekeeper?
    The word Garveyard implies more than it is. It's just a bunch of rocks that used to be gods clustered in the same general area. The Guardian of Dead Gods was addressed a few times in those threads. He used to be Anubis of the Pharaonic pantheon, but stopped being a god (and being Anubis) when he took his new duties. Anyway, I would start with this post in the 6th thread.

    Yup. I wonder if there is or was a Lord of Pain. Maybe he offended Lady who had to flee Rune and create Sigil. Now we know why she is that angry on everyone!
    That would imply that Sigil is the lesser city. That... I mean... yeah...

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Do you really think that the sort of bible swinging fanatic who let themselves be fooled by renaming a daemon a yugoloth knows that "Gehenna" is the Jewish counterpart of Hell?
    Guess not.

    I'll just let Afro from the 1st thread do the introductions:

    Speaking of Tharizdun, what exactly is he that makes the other gods quake in there boots?
    A dreadful bore. Seriously, if you ever have dinner with the guy, you'll want to throw him in a Demiplane of Imprisonment too. Doesn't help that he argues about his cut of the bill when the time comes to pay up.

    Oh wait, you meant the other Tharizdun.
    ...
    Wow! Now this is... really scary! As before, interesting to read articles like this.

    One part of the long quote reminded me of a question I wanted to ask long ago, but kept forgeting.

    It is now believed that the wraithlike deity was an aspect of Tharizdun
    So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another? I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?
    Last edited by Edreyn; 2020-07-23 at 08:00 AM.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    So, this is my question. Not about this specific aspect, but the general idea. For example, Sharess is goddess of lust is considered to be an aspect of Shar, goddess of darkness. How is it possible, that both exist as characters or entities, have a physical form on Outer Planes and each with separate consciousness, but still one is a aspect aka a part of another?
    Simple. Shar is a lying liar who lies. (I'm noticing a trend in those questions...) Shar does this thing where her church infiltrates other religions and slowly makes them believe that their god is just an aspect of Shar. This leads, if not counteracted, to Shar subsuming the other deity. Shar did this successfully with Ibrandul, a deity of caves and dungeons, and currently tries with the Chultan deity Eshowdow. Sharess specifically was saved from being subsumed and the infection of Shar worshippers in her cult destroyed through the help of Sune.
    Shar isn't the only deity who uses this tactic. Set for example successfully subsumed the Faerûnian yuan-ti deity Sseth.

    I mean, in Planescape cosmology deities are actually people, very powerful, but still people who behave like people, though in some cases their alignments are much more extreme then those of mortals. How can a person have aspects who have their own consciousness?
    And this is your problem. Planescape deities aren't people. They are forces of (super-) nature that occassionally look like people. They can be in many places at once. They can form avatars and aspects. A deity can sense things miles away, hear every instance of their name spoken by a mortal, notice every event involving their portfolio in their area of worship, sometimes weeks before it happens. A deity's personality is formed by their portfolio and the beliefs of their worshippers, not the other way round.
    A deity is not a person. It's a power.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Thank you for answering about Sharess and Shar.
    One final question about them: is the similarity of their names just a coincidence?

    And this is your problem. Planescape deities aren't people. They are forces of (super-) nature that occassionally look like people. They can be in many places at once. They can form avatars and aspects. A deity can sense things miles away, hear every instance of their name spoken by a mortal, notice every event involving their portfolio in their area of worship, sometimes weeks before it happens. A deity's personality is formed by their portfolio and the beliefs of their worshippers.
    A deity is not a person. It's a power.
    Okay, I can accept this. The quote reminded me something from Norse mythology. This religion is old gone, but still a religion, so I don't know if it can be discussed. Probably not.

    But I do want to explain why I said that deities in this cosmology are people.

    Remember Avatars series? Yes, in three original books deities looked and behaved as people because Ao forced them to this. But the fourth book (different author I think) describes them already after this. And why I say that they behave as people, though their alignments are extreme.

    Midnight\new Mystra still loved Kelemvor, but suspected he now sees her physical form as a mummy. Cyric was cheating and plotting as he did in life. It took gods so much of effort and time to reclaim Cyrinishad, and then Mask stole it again, just for lulz. He also said, leave me alone, stealing is my nature. Kelemvor even tried to continue being honest judge of souls, and started sending souls to the Wall only after being scolded by Ao. And it was Cyric who snitched on Kelemvor to Ao about this.

    Even in the first book, Helm, the only one who wasn't made mortal, in the scene when he killed old Mystra, while he really created a few forms of himself, he still had a humanoid form and talked like a usual devoted warrior.
    Those series do describe deities as people, and they do behave as people.
    Are they considered canon or not?

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    Quote Originally Posted by Edreyn View Post
    Thank you for answering about Sharess and Shar.
    One final question about them: is the similarity of their names just a coincidence?
    No. Sharess had another name before Shar got her hooks into her. She used to be the Mulhorandi pantheon's Bast, hence her having cats in her portfolio.

    But I do want to explain why I said that deities in this cosmology are people.

    Remember Avatars series? Yes, in three original books deities looked and behaved as people because Ao forced them to this. But the fourth book (different author I think) describes them already after this. And why I say that they behave as people, though their alignments are extreme.

    Midnight\new Mystra still loved Kelemvor, but suspected he now sees her physical form as a mummy. Cyric was cheating and plotting as he did in life. It took gods so much of effort and time to reclaim Cyrinishad, and then Mask stole it again, just for lulz. He also said, leave me alone, stealing is my nature. Kelemvor even tried to continue being honest judge of souls, and started sending souls to the Wall only after being scolded by Ao. And it was Cyric who snitched on Kelemvor to Ao about this.

    Even in the first book, Helm, the only one who wasn't made mortal, in the scene when he killed old Mystra, while he really created a few forms of himself, he still had a humanoid form and talked like a usual devoted warrior.
    Those series do describe deities as people, and they do behave as people.
    Are they considered canon or not?
    The books are canon. Maybe I was a bit overeager when I said they aren't people. Let me correct myself: they are more than people. Talos isn't just a boisterous guy who likes smashing things and enjoys a good thunderstorm. He is Destruction and Storm and Conflagration, shaped into a semi-human mindshed and body through the beliefs and ideas of his worshippers. Shar isn't just a superpowered goth who enjoys people being depressed. She is Darkness. She is Loss and Desolation. She is The Night.

    She is Batman.

    To take another example, look at Chauntea. When she was born, she was the Earth Mother. She was nature, red in tooth and claw. She was fertility and fecundity, animals and plants fighting for suvival, feeding, mating and dying. See what she is now, after being changed by millenia of worship. She is the Neutral Good goddess of agriculture, the gentle mother of summer, the patroness of farmers and gardeners. That wasn't just a person switching jobs or changing hobbies. That was a transformation, a shifting of her fundamental nature.

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    Default Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

    That chauntea bit brings to mind a question. Since her nature changed over eons with worshippers changing, does she remember her old self or does that chauntea not exist anymore? Is it a quiet voice in her head, kind of like the random impulse like flip that guy off when something comes up that is (hopefully) suppressed? Did that splinter offend becoming something like Malar? Is that part of her still worshipped in some weird hinterlands of primitive people? And if so does that mean that part of her exists independently or makes that voice a little more insistent?

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