afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Eldan]

I've also seen Axiomatic and Anarchic thrown around as languages. THey are a bit of a throwback to 1st edition and earlier, where there was Chaos language and Law language, that only people of those alignments could speak and understand. (Magically so, I think?)

From what I remember from 2E, most monster compendium entries just said something like "And this creature also speaks their own language", so that's probably where Planewalker got it from.

[Efrate]

How does not common common or however you want to put it parse with oerth, earth, and toril becuase they are connected. Ed Greenwood does not appear to have any issue conversing with Elminster and visa versa. I know the silly answer is magic hur durr 4th wall, but its actually a cannon thing.

Assuming those have a shared common ie english, what about places like athas, ravenloft, krynn, eberron, etc. Is their common just the spanish common to our english common, or english common, or something else entirely.

[crystal_entity]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts! I'm struggling to think of other instances of characters from different worlds who weren't powerful mages really communicating, if you count the Baldur's Gate computer game series as canon there were Knights of Solamnia stranded in one quest who have no communication problems, but that was a highly magical planeshifting sphere which may well have have translation magic built in.

Having read your thoughts, I think it makes more sense for each world to have a separate common tongue, and and I like the idea of a "Planar Common" tongue for the planes too, I can imagine that developing in more cosmopolitan areas such as Sigil and being spread around.

Thanks all!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'm struggling to think of other instances of characters from different worlds who weren't powerful mages really communicating,

For this, I would present "the entirety of the Spelljammer campaign setting" as Exhibit A.

The whole raison d'etre of Spelljammer is to allow travel between different Prime worlds, and in all of the 2e Spelljammer products I can't find any mention of any communications difficulties when visiting new spheres, no mention of varying dialects of Common, no new NWPs dealing with languages, nada, zip. All the races have their own languages, of course, but even then there's no mention of differences between, say, the Krynnish and Oeridian dialects of Gnomish--and the Elven Armada explicitly consists of elves of all subraces (except drow and sea elves) from all the known worlds, with no mention of Elven dialects or the like.

Now, that doesn't mean inhabitants of different spheres don't speak different versions of a given language or have very noticeable (and possibly amusing) accents, but it does imply that they're all mutually intelligible dialects, like the differences between American vs. Australian vs. British vs. Indian English rather than the degree of difference between Spanish and Portuguese or Danish and Swedish.

The fact that Common on certain worlds has known "origins" doesn't necessarily conflict with this idea, either. For instance, Torillian Common came from Old Common came from a mix of Jhaamdathan and Alzhedo, which implies it's a sort of bastard mix of very different parents much like English is with German and French, with no relation to other spheres' languages, right? Well, not necessarily: Alzhedo is a derivative of "Old Alzhedo" (the Calishıte name for Auran) while Jhaamdathan is a derivative of Jotun (the language of giants), so it's entirely possible that Alzhedo was really a Common/Auran pidgin and Jhaamdathi was a Common/Giantish pidgin and modern Common appears to be part Alzhedo and part Jhaamdathan because both of those languages are part Common. Toril is much older than Jhaamdath, after all, and has been getting spelljamming visitors for quite some time, so a more universal/multiversal origin for the local dialect of Common makes a lot of sense.

Remember, Common isn't a human language, or even a humanoid language. Nearly everything speaks Common if they can speak at all, regardless of intelligence or vocal apparatus, from the stupid and insane gibbering mouther to the remote and inhuman kraken. For that to be the case, we're not talking about some random human language that can change in a few decades due to something as simple as cultural separation and linguistic drift, we're talking about something hardcoded into 90+% of sapient creatures, presumably by racial gods or gods of language or the like. If the gods saw fit to let humans, manticores, tritons, and quasits all sit at the same table and have a nice friendly chat with each other in the same language (at least until the manticore tries to eat the triton and the quasit tries to trick the human into selling its soul), why wouldn't they do the same for humans on different worlds?

Now, I would expect isolated worlds like Athas and Eberron to have their own version of Common, since they don't share gods with other worlds (and in those two cases don't have any verifiable gods at all), don't have spelljamming or portal connections with other worlds and planes (and in those two cases don't even have the same local cosmology as other worlds), and so forth, so whatever mechanism hardcodes and/or transmits the language to every critter under the local sun reasonably wouldn't extend to them. If anything, this distinction would make reaching a heretofore-unknown and -unexplored sphere even more significant and really drive home the foreignness of the experience, since a human traveler entering the sphere goes from being able to talk to anyone from Krynnish minotaurs to Torillian pegasi without difficulty to finding themselves separated from the local humans by a Common language.

[Bohandas]

If the gods saw fit to let humans, manticores, tritons, and quasits all sit at the same table and have a nice friendly chat with each other in the same language (at least until the manticore tries to eat the triton and the quasit tries to trick the human into selling its soul), why wouldn't they do the same for humans on different worlds?

To be fair, different worlds generally have mostly different gods. And the gods they do share in common are generally racial deities with their own pet language.

And Krynn doesn't even have that. Their only offworld deities were Tiamat and Bahamut, and they both "died"

[PairO'Dice Lost]

To be fair, different worlds generally have mostly different gods. And the gods they do share in common are generally racial deities with their own pet language.

And Krynn doesn't even have that. Their only offworld deities were Tiamat and Bahamut, and they both "died"

There are plenty of multi-spheric gods beyond the racial pantheons. Toril has a bunch of scattered interloper gods (Tyr, Oghma, Loviatar, Tyche, etc.) plus the entire Mulhorandi (/Egyptian) and Untheric (/Mesopotamian) pantheons, Oerth has a bunch of interloper gods the specifics of which vary by edition, the Norse and Olympic pantheons are worshiped in a bunch of spheres in various forms, and several gods (most notably Ptah and Celestian) are worshiped in nearly every known sphere and have their divine power extend to all of them.

While Krynn "only" had Tiamat and Bahamut, Takhisis and Paladine were the heads of their respective moral thirds of the Krynnish pantheon and often took mortal form (as humans!), so they had outsize influence on anything going on in Krynnspace and of course the spread of Common happened long before they died.

[enderlord99]

On which plane would the battle at the beginning of this video most likely take place? My best guesses are "the Prime Material" or "Acheron" but I'm not certain.

The latter half is obviously Baator, and most likely the layer of Dis.

[Eldan]

It's not very Acheron for me... there seem to be too many hero-type people. Individual warriors with glory in mind, enjoying what they are doing (wing guy, the pilot). Acheron is all about being senselessly crushed as part of a nameless mass for no reason. There's not really a place for laughing maniacs with swords or desperate last second air maneuvers. In Acheron, you cower in an artillery crater in Noman's land while mustard gas shells fly overhead, you don't hang from a chain strapped to a missile to leap from plane to plane. That stuff fits right in on Ysgard. On the other hand, the entire thing is a bit too terrifying for that.

Probably material plane, it has a bit of everything.

[Bohandas]

this video

Ok, this is driving me crazy, where else have I heard that opening riff? I've heard that same riff in some other song and I can't seem to place it.

[Fable Wright]

It's not very Acheron for me... there seem to be too many hero-type people. Individual warriors with glory in mind, enjoying what they are doing (wing guy, the pilot). Acheron is all about being senselessly crushed as part of a nameless mass for no reason. There's not really a place for laughing maniacs with swords or desperate last second air maneuvers. In Acheron, you cower in an artillery crater in Noman's land while mustard gas shells fly overhead, you don't hang from a chain strapped to a missile to leap from plane to plane. That stuff fits right in on Ysgard. On the other hand, the entire thing is a bit too terrifying for that.

Probably material plane, it has a bit of everything.

Nah, it's definitely Ysgard. Muspelheim is a barren, desolate wasteland perfect for this kind of stuff. Bear in mind that Ysgard has pockets of Pure Evil^TM for the Good Guys^TM to fight all the time. Man blew up, got captured and forced to one of the Evil areas to be tortured, to either become Pure Evil^TM (and have an endless stream of Good Guys^TM to fight) or be rescued by a particularly heroic squad of Good Guys^TM. Can't stage a daring rescue without someone to save, so that's A-OK by the plane.

[Delvin Anaris]

Ok, this is driving me crazy, where else have I heard that opening riff? I've heard that same riff in some other song and I can't seem to place it.

Well, it sounds very similar to the bassline of several classic Final Fantasy games' battle themes (particularly FFVI)...

[Tzardok]

I just noticed something when reading On Hallowed Ground. Aerdrie Faenya is described to move her realm between Arvandor and Ysgard, but the realm is not named. Instead the description names as her realm Arvandor (Corellon's realm, not the layer) and Alfheim and claims that her realm "becomes part" of those realms. Is that just a convoluted way to say that she lives in two communal realms, or does she in fact have her own realm and docks at those two? And if the later, what would be a good name for it?

Edit: Where does Kiaransalee have her realm and what is its name? On Hallowed Ground placed her on Thanatos, but since Orcus came back she isn't there anymore, and Faiths & Pantheons is no help as it uses the Tree instead of the Wheel. Also, just to be sure, Selvetarm and Keptolo live with Lolth instead of having realms of their own, right?

2nd Edit: Does anybody know anything about the deity Gzemnid besides his entry in On Hallowed Ground?

[Eldan]

Apparently, she lives on the prime now, says the fiendish codex.

[Tzardok]

Apparently, she lives on the prime now, says the fiendish codex.

Which chapter? I would like to read it up myself. (You don't need to add the exact page number; I own the German version of the book, not the English one.)

[Eldan]

Only found two entries on different WIkis that list FC as a source. And most D&D books don't actually have a decent index. So... sorry? I can't find it myself, either.

[Eldan]

One very short mention in the section on Thanatos, Orcus' realm, in one of the plot hooks:

Wail of the Banshee: While dealing with dark elves,
the PCs learn of an “Armageddon device” left by Kiaransalee in the depths of her abandoned Forbidden Citadel in
Lachrymosa. Initiating the device, a vortex to the heart of
the Positive Energy Plane, would have devastating repercussions for Thanatos and perhaps the whole of the Abyss.
Discovering its location requires a trip to the Material
World of Guldor for an audience with the Banshee Queen’s
avatar before making a daring raid against Orcus’s heavily
fortifi ed capital.

[Thurbane]

Gzemnid gets a very minor mention in the 2E Monster Mythology, as being the only surviving deity-son of the Great Mother.

FC1 (p.125 in the English printing) mentions that Kiaransalee dwells in Kandelspire, in the mountain dwarf kingdom of Maldev: "the final refuge of good to fall to Lolth's invasion of this entire Material Plane world".

According to the Living Greythawk Deities document, Kiaransalee is now know as Kiaransali in that setting, FWIW.

[Tzardok]

Gzemnid gets a very minor mention in the 2E Monster Mythology, as being the only surviving deity-son of the Great Mother.

Thanks.

FC1 (p.125 in the English printing) mentions that Kiaransalee dwells in Kandelspire, in the mountain dwarf kingdom of Maldev: "the final refuge of good to fall to Lolth's invasion of this entire Material Plane world".

Well, unless we assume that those worlds are literally drawn into Abyss, that settles it (and her on the Prime):

According to the Living Greythawk Deities document, Kiaransalee is now know as Kiaransali in that setting, FWIW.

You really shouldn't have sent me into the Greyhawk deities; now I noticed another thing: Both the Greyhawk goddess Geshtai and the Birthright god Erik are given the divine realm of Nature's Rest, but I haven't found any descriptions explicitely stating they share realms. Is that intentional or something that was overlooked?
Also, does anybody know where the Greyhawk deities Stern Alia, Beltar, Phaulkon, Phyton, Merikka, Rao, Norebo and Moquol have their divine realms and what they are named?

Edit: Another question. During my research I've found that kenku differ a whole lot between 2e and 3e. Winged vs unwinged; neutral vs evil; secretive, but honorable clan society vs selfish and thieving bands. Is there an explanation for the change? Is the god of the 2e kenku, Quorlinn, appropriate for the 3e kenku or does need a lot of adaption?

Edit edit: And another thing: Does anybody have an idea what Hoar's portfolio, alignment etc. were back when he was Assuran?

Edit edit edit: Is known what number(s) layer the Maztican tenemos Teotli Itic covers in the Abyss?

Edit x4: Who the hell are the deities Anahita, Apaosha, Kan'on, Nol, Unana, Ur, Yrrkol and Badar?

[Ronin Duelist]

Are the Aspects of deities and archfiends independent creatures? With their own thoughts and desires? Or are they simply extensions of their creator's will, and like weaker avatars?

I was considering a minor plot where an Aspect of Levistus, his master being stuck in ice, has weakened influence over him and thus goes on an independent streak and actively works to keep his creator locked up so he can retain his newfound agency. Trying to figure out if this flies in the face of any established lore.

[Tzardok]

Are the Aspects of deities and archfiends independent creatures? With their own thoughts and desires? Or are they simply extensions of their creator's will, and like weaker avatars?

I was considering a minor plot where an Aspect of Levistus, his master being stuck in ice, has weakened influence over him and thus goes on an independent streak and actively works to keep his creator locked up so he can retain his newfound agency. Trying to figure out if this flies in the face of any established lore.

Yes, aspects are independent creatures, usually created for cases where a complete avatar would be overkill and/or cause too big of a disturbance. Aspects are created with a job in mind and imbued with a desire to do that job and then return and be reabsorbed. Your idea would be quite unusual, but I could imagine it happen if the aspect is kept by an outside force for a long time from returning.

Question on my own: Sixin is the god of xill, Kaelthiere is mostly worshipped by salamanders and azers. Both of them have mostly outsiders as their worshippers, which are non-dual. That means that both of them will have no (or next to no) petitioners. I thought deities required petitioners to absorb in addition to faith to survive. How do Sixin and Kaelthiere deal with that?

[Thealtruistorc]

Here are some I've had for a while, all compiled into one place.

First, where did the Titans come from in Planescape? They sort of have an origin story in Forgotten Realms, but I don't see how that expands to other settings or the planes at large.

Second, what was the Queen of Chaos' form or being like during the height of the Cthonic War? What sort of effects would her Form of Madness have?

Third, there was some discussion I heard somewhere of homebrew creatures which were CG creatures trapped in bizarre states akin to how the Obyriths became entrapped in their current forms. Could I get a link to those?

Fourth, is neutrality a force on its own in the planes or just an absence of other forces? Does a neutrally-aligned plane just represent a lack of influence from law/chaos/evil/good?

[Caelestion]

They're part of the Olympian mythos, so they've just always been there.

[Bohandas]

Second, what was the Queen of Chaos' form or being like during the height of the Cthonic War? What sort of effects would her Form of Madness have?

In Rod of Seven Parts she looks basically identical to Ursula the Sea Witch from The Little Mermaid. Big, purple-blue skin, octopus body....

[Thurbane]

I have a bit of an odd question: are the default PHB gods (aside from the racial gods Corellan, Moradin etc.) worshiped or recognized in the Forgotten Realms?

Are there any natives of Toril that worship Pelor, Cord, St Cuthbert etc? If yes, how does this affect their afterlife? Do they go in the great wall of heretics?

Do prestige classes like Radiant Servant of Pelor exist in The Realms, or are they modified to be for a native sun deity like Lathander?

[Eldan]

Probably varied a bit by edition, but I don't think Forgotten Realms officially recognized the PHB gods. Maybe it does these days in fifth edition, wizards is publishing a lot less setting material, and it's intended to be a lot more crossover-friendly.

Third edition prestige classes often came with a "how to adapt to setting X" section. And Radiant Servant of Lathander is a thing that definitely rings a bell somewhere in my head.

[Tzardok]

Second, what was the Queen of Chaos' form or being like during the height of the Cthonic War? What sort of effects would her Form of Madness have?

We already had a discussion on her stats and Form of Madness in 3.5 on page 8 of this very thread. Look there.

Third, there was some discussion I heard somewhere of homebrew creatures which were CG creatures trapped in bizarre states akin to how the Obyriths became entrapped in their current forms. Could I get a link to those?

If this is about the hypothetical precedessors to Eladrin, that project never went anywhere and can be found nowhere.

Fourth, is neutrality a force on its own in the planes or just an absence of other forces? Does a neutrally-aligned plane just represent a lack of influence from law/chaos/evil/good?

Neutrality has the Rilmani, creatures that embody it the way Batezu embody Lawful Evil. You tell me.

I have a bit of an odd question: are the default PHB gods (aside from the racial gods Corellan, Moradin etc.) worshiped or recognized in the Forgotten Realms?

Nope. Most of the default PHB gods are single sphere deities from Oerth.

Are there any natives of Toril that worship Pelor, Cord, St Cuthbert etc? If yes, how does this affect their afterlife? Do they go in the great wall of heretics?

I think Afro once mentioned that a visitor to Toril with a patron deity from outside simply goes to their divine realm like normal. I imagine that they still have a stint in the Fugue Plane until Kelemvor gets around to send a messenger to the patron and tell them where to pick up the errant soul.

Do prestige classes like Radiant Servant of Pelor exist in The Realms, or are they modified to be for a native sun deity like Lathander?

Faerûn is already lousy with divinely inspired prestige classes, but if you think you need to adapt more from outside? Go nuts.

[Eurus]

This has probably already been discussed, but I'm suddenly interested in discussions on the subject of Outsiders changing from their "natural" alignment.

We know it happens, in both directions, although examples of "falling" seem to be more common in stuff I've seen? There's at least one entire class of fiends that are apparently all supposed to be fallen angels, or descended from such, so that suggests a certain tendency. On the other hand, it seems to be a very small percentage, especially for fiends redeeming/modrons going rogue/

So there are two questions, but they're kind of big. Why does it happen, and why doesn't it happen more? I've always fallen back on the general explanation that outsiders tend to be formed with a lot of instincts and not much perspective, so it's hard for them to break from the "script", but I feel like this is probably something that depends on which specific type of outsider we're talking about. So, although I'm curious about all of them, I'll limit my specific question to the types that are relevant to my game.

-Yugoloths, and the potential redeeming thereof. More or less unlikely than other fiends? Are there specific points on the promotional ladder that might be more susceptible to catching philosophy? For that matter, how rare is it for a fiend to become less evil if they're stuck outside of their normal plane for a while?

-Angels, why do they seem to fall so much (comparatively speaking)? And how can they avoid it if they're in extreme circumstances? Are there angelic therapists?

-Inevitables. I seem to recall something about them needing to be brain-wiped periodically... does that mean they have a strong tendency to go rogue compared to other lawful outsiders?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Fourth, is neutrality a force on its own in the planes or just an absence of other forces? Does a neutrally-aligned plane just represent a lack of influence from law/chaos/evil/good?

Neutrality has the Rilmani, creatures that embody it the way Batezu embody Lawful Evil. You tell me.

To expand, Neutrality as a cosmic force exists in both "balance must exist among all alignments!" and "eh, whatever works" flavors in the multiverse, in the same way that LN exists in both "all must be united in the grand design!" and "order and patterns are cool, y'all" flavors and so on.

Rilmani are the current exemplars of Neutrality and subscribe to the "balance" view of TN, centering their existence around enforcing balance and carefully considering whether the slightest action they took would negatively affect the Cosmic Balance. Their predecessors, however, were the Kamerel, who subscribed to the "apathy" view of TN, just wanting to be left alone and not wanting to even acknowledge other beings existed unless they had to. Neither is more True Neutral than the other and both are valid expressions of the TN alignment, in the same way that expressions of the other alignments in the Wheel come in at least three different forms (each exemplar plane and its two neighbors).

Further supporting this is the fact that Neutrality is an intrinsic part of the NG, NE, LN, and CN alignments: the alignment associated with Elysium is Neutral Good, not just "Good" on its own, and so on for the rest of them. While the Wheel doesn't have a NG-with-N-tendencies plane like it does with Bytopia being the NG-with-L-tendencies plane (unless you subscribe to the Cordant Planes hypothesis), that doesn't mean Neutrality is any less important to NG than Law is to LG and so forth.

-Angels, why do they seem to fall so much (comparatively speaking)? And how can they avoid it if they're in extreme circumstances? Are there angelic therapists?

Honestly? It's more real-world religious influences creeping into D&D over time than anything with particular in-setting justifications. I can't go into too much detail given the forum rules, but there's a noticeably tension between the "Good and Evil are equal and opposite points of view and souls just go to matching afterlives" influence on early Planescape and the sketches of the 1e cosmology and the "good souls are rewarded in the Upper Planes and evil souls are punished in the Lower Planes" influence on late Planescape and, say, the Fiendish Codices.

Aasimon fall a lot in D&D because "staying good is harder than becoming evil" and "the Dark Side is more tempting" and so forth are common fantasy/religion tropes and so they make for good backstories, adventure path hooks, and similar. Fiends do "rise" in D&D but more rarely because that's an existing-but-much-less-common trope, and Lawful and Chaotic outsiders "sliding" to the opposite ethical alignment or Neutral outsiders "choosing" to the extreme alignments are basically unheard-of outside of Rogue Modrons and one-off NPCs because that's not really a concept outside of D&D so there aren't any precedents to draw on. Looking purely at the in-setting logic and ignoring what adventures and NPC writeups focus on, one would expect to see roughly equal ratios of falling/rising/sliding/etc. because outsiders of a given alignment are as devoted to their own alignment as outsiders of any other alignment are.


It's also the case that fiends are designated bad guys so they get a lot more creative attention than outsiders of other alignments and there are more fiends statted up than other outsider types, so the developers may well have simply gone with the "entire class of fallen angels" idea because they needed more fiends for the next splatbook, and there's no class of, say, Inevitables arising from assimilated Chaotic outsiders because the devs don't care about inevitables as much and so spend very little effort or creativity on fleshing them out (lookin' at you, Anhydrut).

Same thing with exemplar lords. There are nine archdevils in Baator at any given time but plenty of turnover from all their scheming, and unbounded numbers of demon princes in the Abyss at any given time with even more turnover there, so developers need to keep coming up with ideas and eventually they're going to use the "better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven" premise a second (or third, or tenth) time. Meanwhile, the ranks of the archon, guardinal, and eladrin lords are relatively static (I guess no one's heard of retirement or job rotation in the Upper Planes?) so they never felt the need to reach for "So-and-so started life as a demon prince, but after X and Y and Z was redeemed and now reigns over the Nth Heaven in Celestia" or the like.

[Eurus]

(...)

That's a persuasive and informative answer, but I'm mostly just amused by that answer coming from your username.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

That's a persuasive and informative answer, but I'm mostly just amused by that answer coming from your username.

Don't worry, my previous post was completely free of bias and most certainly not paid for by the Bureau of Alignmental Accuracy and Transparency of Outsider Realignment (B.A.A.T.O.R.).