afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Tzardok]

Kamarel, technically.

Propably doesn't differ that much from the Rilmani one. It's still neutrality, but neutrality through self-isolation, so they still get the mist maelstrom except without the balancing factor. Propably exiles the kamarel deep into the Mists and then either rips him apart or expels him. A self-solving problem for once.

[Eldan]

Two issues here

First and foremost, some abyssal layers are finite

Secondly, you can bound an infinite volume in a finite region if the space becomes progressively more distorted the further you go inward from the outer boundry (similar to Maurits C Escher's paintings Snakes, Development II, and Development III

[...]

Ah, yes. Because what could possibly go wrong with fractally folding infinite demonic energies into the prime.

[Thurbane]

Sounds good, what are you looking for? Lay out some questions, I'll get it done for you.

Hmm, OK, let's see...

What might have been the threat that threatened their empire with destruction, which lead to them to trade their souls?

Who or what did they trade their souls to?

Do they have allegiance, or pay lip service, to any particular higher power(s)? There is some mention that they still pay homage to giantish deities, but also that they worship "dark and alien" deities.

What kind of society would they have, what kind of power structure? Democracy, dictatorship, oligarchy etc? And would that have been a different society pre-trading their souls?

What types of creatures are they likely to employ to be their intermediaries with the world of men and other civilised humanoids?

...and in regards to my game: the other factions vying for the same slot in a power vacuum are likely to be the yuan-ti, a cult of Dissipater, a cult of Iuz, and an ancient lich and his network of underlings (the lich operates very much behind the scenes, and mainly uses stealth, subterfuge and assassination to achieve his ends). Are there any of these the death giants are likely to ally with, or be particularly opposed to?

[afroakuma]

Do you personally onow of any major incidents that I left out of my list

I personally take great pains not to read Greyhawk's boring excuse for lore when I don't have to, so no, I do not. Whatever madcap nonsense Gygax's ludicrous self-insert got up to is of zero interest to me beyond what I am asked to research. He probably, I dunno, appointed a kangaroo as provost of Greyhawk University. Dictated that all public houses must be constructed in a helical shape. Filled the city fountains with ochre jelly as a cleanup initiative.

So, nothing that should be caused by a Lawful Neutral 20th-level monk? I think I can work with that.

If you're asking what distortion a level 20 monk would cause, that's a different question entirely. Don't apply one to the other. Honestly, a monk who attains 20th level in the Demiplane of Dread probably gets a shadowy doppelgänger of themselves stalking them, a living embodiment of all the denied parts of the self that the monk has restricted in order to adhere to their vows and higher principles. Shedding mortality just means that it's now out there to haunt you, because that's what the Gothic tropes would want - sort of Jekyll and Hyde on steroids.

Hmm, from that I would surmise that slaads could make power rites and gain from them powers like fiends do, while modrons and rilmani are too offensive to even attempt power rites, leaving celestials awkwardly in the middle.

I would say no, slaad cannot make power rites - the commitment is what would drive them off, that and the fact that they lack the inherent evil to draw the Land into themselves. The exception, of course, would be a death slaad.

Wasn't planing on it. I mean, we've got Good, Evil, Law, Chaos and Neutrality. What else would there be to ask about?

It's you, if anyone was going to ask about an obscure noodly outsider...

I'd like to throw in a question: What entity was it that the death giants sold their souls to?

Like he wasn't going to ask that.

Ah, yes. Because what could possibly go wrong with fractally folding infinite demonic energies into the prime.

That's how afroakumas are made.

Also, Happy New Year sir!

Hmm, OK, let's see...

What might have been the threat that threatened their empire with destruction, which lead to them to trade their souls?

Well, if you take the MMIII's suggestions for Eberron or Faerûn at face value, it would have been the dragons and the phaerimm, respectively, but neither of those feels appropriately canonical. I've been over a number of options, and the most logical one, assuming we're not just making something up wholecloth (because I already had to do that once, see below), would be the approach of Atropus, the World Born Dead^EE. Their powers protect them from the undead and the worst of Atropus's abilities, but of course it's a Pyrrhic victory - Atropus still destroyed their world and all non-death giant creatures on it, forcing them to use powerful gates to leave their now-dead planet behind and flee to other worlds.

Who or what did they trade their souls to?

And here's where we get into making things up wholecloth. While it's reasonable to ascribe the deal to a Lord of the Nine, or maybe Orcus, or a powerful and particularly sadistic yugoloth... or dread Tharizdun, or even Shiva, none feels 100% right. The death giants surrendered their souls, collectively, in exchange for power - including the power to draw more souls to themselves and exploit them. Fiends would want those souls funnelled their way, or corrupted, not merely kept in a swirling fog on the Prime. Tharizdun... doesn't care about anything enough to strike a shady contract. Shiva just isn't that much of a jerk - sure, he might be a god of destruction whose divine realm is a literal vortex of annihilation, but he's an alright guy doing a job.

No, the death giants bound their souls to something in exchange for power - and that means vestiges. Allow me to introduce an ancient vestige from the Negative Energy Plane, a being of nihilism and entropy whose legend was too successful for his own good. This is Ur, Worm of Night and Nothing, a powerful entity of entropy who fell victim to paradoxical godhood and soul-starvation and ended up becoming a vestige. Ur made a massive and unprecedented collective pact with the people who became the death giants, who display his signs constantly. The power of this collective pact has resulted in Ur being partially pulled back from the Near Realm into the Great Wheel, but he is incapable of fully manifesting himself. With every new pact or soul that is devoured, he inches that tiiiiny hair closer to full reality (note that this method only worked for Ur, as we've discussed previously about each vestige needing their own unique way of restoring). Ur's Negative Energy powers instilled the death giants with everything they needed to survive Atropus - survive, but not thrive. No, not that at all. They were instead empowered with abilities that would do duck-all against the World Born Dead. Ur doesn't care. That's ur problem, not Ur problem.

Do they have allegiance, or pay lip service, to any particular higher power(s)? There is some mention that they still pay homage to giantish deities, but also that they worship "dark and alien" deities.

They still recognize the giant pantheon, but when even Memnor won't look twice at you... needless to say they don't get spells from any of the Ordning or even their traditional enemies the interlopers and the demon lords. No, the death giants deal with the kind of deities who do not get named. The Dark God. The Patient One. The Elder Elemental Eye. Demon princes and obscure demon lords. Gods of the undead, or blasphemous gods of profound cruelty or corruption such as Panzuriel, Moander, and so on. And yes, when I say the Dark God, I mean Tharizdun. I should note this isn't an "across the race this is the pantheon" kind of thing, it's "a lone death giant cleric of X has collected others to form a cult dedicated to X." Most death giants still remember the Ordning and miss being recognized by their own gods.

What kind of society would they have, what kind of power structure? Democracy, dictatorship, oligarchy etc? And would that have been a different society pre-trading their souls?

For the most part, death giant society... isn't one. You have violent and cruel gangs seizing territory and combating one another. It's only the cult leaders who would be able to establish larger social groups, and power would be centralized in clerics of ancient and terrible dark powers and their immediate confidants. As neutral evil beings with demonstrated selfishness (save ourselves, not our world!), death giants' religiosity would still be primarily self-serving and driven by fear, rather than the kind of zeal that can create religious police or the kind of wanton fanaticism that can create sectarian violence. Collection of too many souls makes you wealthy but also a logical target for assassination - so whosoever has the most (and this would likely extend to material wealth as well) is always under the most threat.

What types of creatures are they likely to employ to be their intermediaries with the world of men and other civilised humanoids?

Undead or constructs, since they're all kind of obsessed with collecting souls... their cruel powers might also attract the interest of vasharans^BoVD, and of course the kinds of frightening creatures that worship the same alien gods as they (or might want to try converting death nights to those gods), so avolakias and psurlons for example; might even use their desert ties to send asherati, bhukas, or harssafs.

...and in regards to my game: the other factions vying for the same slot in a power vacuum are likely to be the yuan-ti, a cult of Dissipater

A cult of whom? Did Dispater, Lord of the Second, somehow evaporate?

a cult of Iuz, and an ancient lich and his network of underlings (the lich operates very much behind the scenes, and mainly uses stealth, subterfuge and assassination to achieve his ends). Are there any of these the death giants are likely to ally with, or be particularly opposed to?

I would surmise most likely the lich, since they would be immune to its undead. Yuan-ti want things the death giants cannot possibly profit from and would definitely try to transform one. Dispater wants power for Hell and can't bargain with the death giants effectively (he can't offer to release their souls). The cult of Iuz would likely annoy them the most because Iuz wants territory and control and the death giants don't want to cede either (although you may find individual gangs betraying the rest by serving any of these groups).

Hope that helps!

[Tzardok]

If you're asking what distortion a level 20 monk would cause, that's a different question entirely. Don't apply one to the other. Honestly, a monk who attains 20th level in the Demiplane of Dread probably gets a shadowy doppelgänger of themselves stalking them, a living embodiment of all the denied parts of the self that the monk has restricted in order to adhere to their vows and higher principles. Shedding mortality just means that it's now out there to haunt you, because that's what the Gothic tropes would want - sort of Jekyll and Hyde on steroids.

Ah, thank you. I kind of assumed that the distortion is based solely only alignment, without care for the kind of being that causes it. In that case, I'd like to ask a last question in that line: You see, I've been writing how class features of non-core classes would be changed in Ravenloft (partly based on your posts from the last thread ). Warlocks gain a fiend-like reality wrinkle, but there's another class with one: the incarnate. So I'd like to ask you, what would be most appropriate for them? Something like the respective alignment's outsiders, because of their alignemental focus, or something like the monk.

It's you, if anyone was going to ask about an obscure noodly outsider...

Noodly outsiders? I don't know any, but they would propably live in Dothion. It's, after all, described as pasta-ral.

No, the death giants bound their souls to something in exchange for power - and that means vestiges. Allow me to introduce an ancient vestige from the Negative Energy Plane, a being of nihilism and entropy whose legend was too successful for his own good. This is Ur, Worm of Night and Nothing, a powerful entity of entropy who fell victim to paradoxical godhood and soul-starvation and ended up becoming a vestige. Ur made a massive and unprecedented collective pact with the people who became the death giants, who display his signs constantly. The power of this collective pact has resulted in Ur being partially pulled back from the Near Realm into the Great Wheel, but he is incapable of fully manifesting himself. With every new pact or soul that is devoured, he inches that tiiiiny hair closer to full reality (note that this method only worked for Ur, as we've discussed previously about each vestige needing their own unique way of restoring). Ur's Negative Energy powers instilled the death giants with everything they needed to survive Atropus - survive, but not thrive. No, not that at all. They were instead empowered with abilities that would do duck-all against the World Born Dead. Ur doesn't care. That's ur problem, not Ur problem.

I feel inspired to stat that guy. Propably an epic vestige. Let's see wether something results from it.

A cult of whom? Did Dispater, Lord of the Second, somehow evaporate?

Introducing Dissipater, the Iron Steam Duke.

[Thurbane]

A cult of whom? Did Dispater, Lord of the Second, somehow evaporate?

Damn autocorrect strikes again!

Hope that helps!

That is great headcanon, and will be very useful for my game.

I feel inspired to stat that guy. Propably an epic vestige. Let's see wether something results from it.

Please do! I, for one, would be very interested in this.

[afroakuma]

Ah, thank you. I kind of assumed that the distortion is based solely only alignment, without care for the kind of being that causes it. In that case, I'd like to ask a last question in that line: You see, I've been writing how class features of non-core classes would be changed in Ravenloft (partly based on your posts from the last thread ). Warlocks gain a fiend-like reality wrinkle, but there's another class with one: the incarnate. So I'd like to ask you, what would be most appropriate for them? Something like the respective alignment's outsiders, because of their alignemental focus, or something like the monk.

If you recall what I said about incarnum specifically, incarnum in the Demiplane of Dread is a bad idea and becoming a perfect incarnation... at the very least I would say is a stupid, stupid, stupid idea. I never wanted to be tremendously definitive about how incarnum works in the Demiplane of Dread but one thing I can say with absolute certainty is that if you're a true incarnation, your alignment subtype becomes Evil regardless of your actual alignment. Binding the incarnum of that place to your very being could not possibly result in anything else - it's almost cognate to a fiend's power ritual. Even if you became a true incarnation elsewhere and then entered the Demiplane of Dread (in which case you are a stupid stupid stupid person, who voluntarily enters that place at 20th level?) the supply from which your body draws its powers would become rapidly contaminated.

I feel inspired to stat that guy. Propably an epic vestige. Let's see wether something results from it.

Not to worry, my vestige guy and I are already on it. I needed a consult to make sure the chosen epithet was a decent one. Tzardok if you want to talk about the mythological roots of my choice, hit me in PM, just to make sure we don't run afoul of that rule...

That is great headcanon, and will be very useful for my game.

Glad to hear it!

[Alea]

To what extent would totemic incarnum be problematic? Totemists are already kind of picking and choosing what they are emulating from the beasts they shape soulmelds after, and while a few of them are aligned, that alignment doesn’t really influence the totemist particularly anyway. The soulmelds might become more evil, perhaps taking after similar (ish) Ravenloft beasts rather than the Material (mostly) beasts totemists are used to, which would affect the precise behavior of the soulmelds, but that isn’t necessarily dire. The only aligned totemist soulmelds are lamassu mantle, lamia belt, and shedu crown, and only the lamassu mantle actually has an aligned effect, though the lamia belt does suggest some intrusive evil thoughts (which is unique among soulmelds, as far as I can tell; none of the rest indicate that they affect one’s thoughts, even the aligned ones). So would the unaligned soulmelds have the same issues? Or would they be replaced by evil-aligned ones? And even if they were, would that matter? It does for the lamia belt kinda-sorta maybe, but not for any others, which would suggest that even if your soulmelds became “evil” it wouldn’t necessarily matter very much, unless they all became like the lamia belt—or worse, since the intrusive thoughts of the lamia belt sound pretty mild anyway.

[porfi86]

And, talking of Ilmater, a more humorous question: why Ilmater and Loviatar hate each other that much? One loves to torment and another to be tormented. In life, with cases like that, people usually form pairs and enjoy... well let's say non-standard sex and are in love or whatever such relation is called. Even Ilmater priests WANT to be beaten - and worshipers of Loviatar offer exactly this. Why the hatred? It's Yin Yang relation - opposite, but forming a whole.

I joined this forum after searching "ilmater loviatar yin yang". I knew I couldn't be the only one who thought this way. I've thought about this a lot, and even imagined a subcult or dissenting community of lore. It goes something like this:

"At the height of Loviatar's prominence, her efforts and those of her followers were continually foiled by the followers of Ilmater. This angered her greatly, and in her rage, she set her sights on one of Ilmaters most notable followers, captured him for herself, and tortured him mercilessly. Ilmater finally appeared and took his place, which was what Loviatar had intended all along.

She relished in torturing him for days, but this was fine with Ilmater, as she was too distracted by him to bless any of her followers, giving the Ilmatari the upper hand in saving those being tortured. All the while Loviatar laughing and taunting "You could end this suffering any time you want, but you are weak." When He saw that her hunger for inflicting pain could not be quelled, he caught her whip, stood up against her, subdued her, and tortured her in retribution. As Loviatar is just as fond of receiving pain as she is of dealing it, this excited her greatly, and she eventually submitted to him.

Thinking he had changed her, he forgave her acts and embraced her, and they loved each other just as passionately as they had fought. But on the third day, he awoke and she was gone. Her desire to give and receive pain had been temporarily satiated, and his followers were safe for a time. Inflicting pain was not his natural way, and she knew that. She would give him and his followers a repose, but eventually her lust for pain would return, starting the cycle over again."

Here in the New House of Loviatar we believe in the Yin-Yang relationship of Ilmater and Loviatar. In dealing pain to those who can benefit and or learn from it. And receiving pain from those who need a safe outlet. Indeed the best way to know someone is to know them through suffering, submission, and domination. We welcome Ilmatari to stand in for any who suffer and do not begrudge them for it. For they need us as we benefit from them.

[Eldan]

I'd assume the canon answer is that Loviatar isn't into "safe, sane and consensual".

[Tzardok]

To what extent would totemic incarnum be problematic? Totemists are already kind of picking and choosing what they are emulating from the beasts they shape soulmelds after, and while a few of them are aligned, that alignment doesn’t really influence the totemist particularly anyway. The soulmelds might become more evil, perhaps taking after similar (ish) Ravenloft beasts rather than the Material (mostly) beasts totemists are used to, which would affect the precise behavior of the soulmelds, but that isn’t necessarily dire. The only aligned totemist soulmelds are lamassu mantle, lamia belt, and shedu crown, and only the lamassu mantle actually has an aligned effect, though the lamia belt does suggest some intrusive evil thoughts (which is unique among soulmelds, as far as I can tell; none of the rest indicate that they affect one’s thoughts, even the aligned ones). So would the unaligned soulmelds have the same issues? Or would they be replaced by evil-aligned ones? And even if they were, would that matter? It does for the lamia belt kinda-sorta maybe, but not for any others, which would suggest that even if your soulmelds became “evil” it wouldn’t necessarily matter very much, unless they all became like the lamia belt—or worse, since the intrusive thoughts of the lamia belt sound pretty mild anyway.

My take on it is that soul melds in the Demiplane don't just take in incarnum, but whole souls from the Mists. Essentially, all soulmelds become intelligent items that try to cajole their user into, well, using them (or, in the case of the totemist, into indulging their most bestial instincts) with the single-minded obsession of ghosts.
Furthermore, if I understand it correctly, you manipulate incarnum with your own soul; it needs to flow through it to be meldshaped. This doesn't even take into account what happens when you put more of it into them (i.e. invest essentia). The beasts of Ravenloft are bestial and monstrous, and an totemist channels the nature of that through himself. That that won't have nice consequences seems clear.

[Alea]

My take on it is that soul melds in the Demiplane don't just take in incarnum, but whole souls from the Mists. Essentially, all soulmelds become intelligent items that try to cajole their user into, well, using them (or, in the case of the totemist, into indulging their most bestial instincts) with the single-minded obsession of ghosts.
Furthermore, if I understand it correctly, you manipulate incarnum with your own soul; it needs to flow through it to be meldshaped. This doesn't even take into account what happens when you put more of it into them (i.e. invest essentia). The beasts of Ravenloft are bestial and monstrous, and an totemist channels the nature of that through himself. That that won't have nice consequences seems clear.

Indeed, that does seem pretty dire. I notice that the totemist capstone (which I hadn’t double-checked for my last post) also has the totemist “temporarily link [their] body and soul to [their] totem chakra,” which has shades of what the incarnate is doing (though perhaps not as strong).

[Bohandas]

What hapoens if a fire elemental enters the phlogiston?

[enderlord99]

What hapoens if a fire elemental enters the phlogiston?

Kaboom happens

[Bohandas]

Probably, but is it instant, or more like a normal person entering the positive energy plane?

[Silly Name]

Probably, but is it instant, or more like a normal person entering the positive energy plane?

I'd say instant. Producing the smallest flame while in the Flow causes the phlogiston to ignite and create an explosion comparable to Fireball, so the fire elemental would also, logically, create an instant explosion.

[Caelestion]

Summoned creatures cannot enter the phlogiston at all, as I recall, so it would have to somehow both arrive in and leave a crystal sphere under its own power for that to be even a consideration.

[Tzardok]

The more important question is: does this extinguish the elemental, or is it unharmed? The later would imply that it explodes again ... and again ... and again ...

[Cieyrin]

Fire elementals are immune to fire, so I don't think a fireball is going to extinguish it or even bother it. It's just going to continue to burn the phlogiston around it like the Gates of Hell. Probably looks like a small star.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The more important question is: does this extinguish the elemental, or is it unharmed? The later would imply that it explodes again ... and again ... and again ...

Can you consume the phlogiston into explosions so that there is an area of pure vacuum? If a colony of fire elementals go for a journey on a spelljammer, could they position themselves around a sphere and "burn" all the phlogiston they touch so that none remains in the area? What would happen then?

[Tzardok]

Can you consume the phlogiston into explosions so that there is an area of pure vacuum? If a colony of fire elementals go for a journey on a spelljammer, could they position themselves around a sphere and "burn" all the phlogiston they touch so that none remains in the area? What would happen then?

If it's truely a vacuum, you would create an area sucking in the phlogiston from around. Over short or long you would create a maelstrom that pulls on all the phlogiston on the plane, redirecting the Flow, disrupting all spacejamming and finally sucking in the infinite phlogiston into the Spacejammer equivalent of an exploding black hole. And this is how the Material will end. Not a whimper, but many consecutive bangs.

[Bohandas]

Summoned creatures cannot enter the phlogiston at all, as I recall, so it would have to somehow both arrive in and leave a crystal sphere under its own power for that to be even a consideration.

such as Planeshift, Planar Binding, Gate, etc...

[Caelestion]

I'm fairly sure that you can't teleport into the phlogiston, but it's been a while since I read the list of things that absolutely won't work there.

[Tzardok]

I'm fairly sure that you can't teleport into the phlogiston, but it's been a while since I read the list of things that absolutely won't work there.

*rolls eyes* Bohandas means gate in the elemental in wildspace and then transport into the phlogiston.

[Naanomi]

I think eventually it would reach an equilibrium, with phlogiston flowing into the inexhaustable flame source at a constant rate and burning off instantly... Slightly brightening the elemental but not explosions after the first few

[Tzardok]

Does the Demiplane of Dread have a connection to the Plane of Mirrors?

Edit: I think I already mentioned that I'm adapting class features of non-core classes to Ravenloft. I decided that shugenja need to to write their ofuda in a way that has to do with the corrupted version of their elemental focus (water shugenja need to make the ink from their blood, fire shugenja from the ashes of burnt flesh, earth shugenja from grave dirt and air shugenja need to write the ofuda inside the Mists). But some shugenja deal in Void in addition to the four classical elements. What would the corruption of Void be and/or how would that be best represented.?

[Saint-Just]

Was Elysium ever entrapping like Hades pre-3e? I am powering through the original Planescape material and that danger seems to be absent.

Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?

[afroakuma]

To what extent would totemic incarnum be problematic?

It's Ravenloft, everything is problematic.

What hapoens if a fire elemental enters the phlogiston?

It explodes immediately, dealing 1d8 fire damage per HD in a 20 ft. radius. Its elemental nature is annihilated in the process, just as if it were killed.

Does the Demiplane of Dread have a connection to the Plane of Mirrors?

I would expect so.

Edit: I think I already mentioned that I'm adapting class features of non-core classes to Ravenloft. I decided that shugenja need to to write their ofuda in a way that has to do with the corrupted version of their elemental focus (water shugenja need to make the ink from their blood, fire shugenja from the ashes of burnt flesh, earth shugenja from grave dirt and air shugenja need to write the ofuda inside the Mists). But some shugenja deal in Void in addition to the four classical elements. What would the corruption of Void be and/or how would that be best represented.?

Void represents that which exists between the elements, shaping them by its presence outside them and absence within their expression and union. It is, in short, the essence of the fabric of the Demiplane of Dread. Its corruption is that which is born from the darkness, the pain, the sorrow, and the madness that infest the Demiplane - that which is born from suspicion of the other; apprehension toward the unknown; discomfort in the darkness; and the death of hope to the sword of bleak truth. It is fear. The ultimate clouding of the Void and cloaking of that which should be clear, for in the Demiplane of Dread fear is its own sort of terrible clarity and profound understanding. Sweat born of terror, blood curdled by screams, dead embers from torches and lanterns of those who got lost in the darkness, soil from under the boot of a panicked man in full flight for his life. To wield the Void in the Demiplane of Dread is difficult, for it requires clarity of mind. Thus is it more complex to prepare a void ofuda, the inks requiring the extraction of every element under the new moon.

Was Elysium ever entrapping like Hades pre-3e? I am powering through the original Planescape material and that danger seems to be absent.

Not that I recall, nor does it show in Planes of Conflict, which does note the entrapping characteristic of Hades.

Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?

Spelljammer.

[Khedrac]

Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?

Also Red Steel in its AD&D port, (I cannot off-hand remember if the Mystara original had it, I don't think so).

[Bohandas]

Also was there any other setting except FR with explicitly mentioned gunpowder or not!gunpowder like smokepowder?

I'm not sure about mentions of gunpowder specificallt, but Greyhawk explicitly has guns