afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Bohandas]

What's up with the moon in Sithicus? Is it a window to the real Nuitari or is it a fake? And if it's a fake is it an illusion or a physical fake?

[afroakuma]

What's up with the moon in Sithicus? Is it a window to the real Nuitari or is it a fake? And if it's a fake is it an illusion or a physical fake?

It's fake, and quite likely an illusion; the Dark Powers have never been documented to bother with extending the reality of a domain to wildspace.

[MinimanMidget]

A friend of mine has a vague memory of a Forgotten Realms (extinct) civilisation where everyone had their hand/arm replaced with some sort of cyst. Google and the wiki are failing us, does this sound familiar to anyone here?

[Inevitability]

A friend of mine has a vague memory of a Forgotten Realms (extinct) civilisation where everyone had their hand/arm replaced with some sort of cyst. Google and the wiki are failing us, does this sound familiar to anyone here?

Does your friend play MtG? This almost sounds like Ravnica's Cytoplasts, maybe some memories got jumbled up?

[MinimanMidget]

Does your friend play MtG? This almost sounds like Ravnica's Cytoplasts, maybe some memories got jumbled up?

No, unfortunately, and they definitely remember it as a characteristic of a civilisation, not just the work of a single person.

Edit: Apparently it was actually Eberron, and the daelkyr with their symbionts. Which was one of the first things I asked, and they said no. 😒

[Bohandas]

What's up with Tristessa, the banshee of Keening? She doesn't seem to have a worse rap sheet than any other Lolth cultist, and seems to have been on the outs with them when she was taken by the mists. How did she become a darklord?

[afroakuma]

What's up with Tristessa, the banshee of Keening? She doesn't seem to have a worse rap sheet than any other Lolth cultist, and seems to have been on the outs with them when she was taken by the mists. How did she become a darklord?

She betrayed her people to become a cultist of Lolth, waged a proxy war on her own people that consumed hundreds of innocent mortals' lives, betrayed Lolth by prioritizing her love for her marked child over her own bloodthirsty religion, and on dying condemned herself by using her last words to call down a final act of hatred and fury that blasted the land of Arak from the Demiplane of Dread. Consumed by a selfish desire to be loved without end, she is now cursed to be alone and constantly searching for the one thing she knew loved her totally and unconditionally.

[enderlord99]

Okay, but "recursive betrayal" is a pretty common thing for drow.

[afroakuma]

Okay, but "recursive betrayal" is a pretty common thing for drow.

Sure, except she wasn't a drow, she was a shadow elf.

[enderlord99]

Sure, except she wasn't a drow, she was a shadow elf.

Oh.

Yeah, that'd do it.

[Tzardok]

We know that Nobanion is Aslan, just renamed for the sake of copyright. Does that mean that Narnia (or a world suspiciously similiar to Narnia) exists in a crystal sphere somewhere on the Prime? Wardrobespace or something like that?

Do you feel up to conjecturing a bit on inter-stellar empire that produced the vestige Danthalion and how it would fit into Spelljammer and its timeline?

[Dalmosh]

Likewise any idle conjecture on Ygorl and the Vaati in the Black Abyss would rock.

[enderlord99]

Does that mean that Narnia

no

(or a world suspiciously similiar to Narnia)

depends how similar is "suspicious" but probably not

[Bohandas]

Why is Blade Barrier a spell in the Good domain?

[Tzardok]

Because it is an aggressively defensive spell, I think. The primary use for Blade Barrier is preventing someone from attacking the user, and punishing them for doing so anyway. It's the work of an angry pacifist, so to speak.
I think it fits with a certain form of Good. An old testamentarian type of Good, a type of Good that doesn't want to fight, but isn't toothless anyway.

[tyckspoon]

Why is Blade Barrier a spell in the Good domain?

From the Doylist side.. lack of any other relevant options? There aren't any explicitly alignment-related spells in the core spell lists at Cleric 6. I suppose they could have put something like Planar Ally or Summon Monster 6* *may only be used to summon a Good aligned creature in there, but I don't see anything else that is more or less thematic of 'Good' so why not Blade Barrier.

[Bohandas]

From the Doylist side.. lack of any other relevant options? There aren't any explicitly alignment-related spells in the core spell lists at Cleric 6. I suppose they could have put something like Planar Ally or Summon Monster 6* *may only be used to summon a Good aligned creature in there, but I don't see anything else that is more or less thematic of 'Good' so why not Blade Barrier.

I would think that the thing to do there from a doylist perspective would be to make up a thematically appropriate spell

[afroakuma]

We know that Nobanion is Aslan, just renamed for the sake of copyright. Does that mean that Narnia (or a world suspiciously similiar to Narnia) exists in a crystal sphere somewhere on the Prime? Wardrobespace or something like that?

Yep. The Narnian legends would of course be somewhat inaccurate to the realities of that world (though of course the Narnian legends would suggest said world has already ended).

Do you feel up to conjecturing a bit on inter-stellar empire that produced the vestige Danthalion and how it would fit into Spelljammer and its timeline?

Given the similarities with the Vodoni Empire, I was going to see if there might be any connection there, but the timeline isn't suited and Vulkaran had no known offspring. The nova-like phenomenon that precipitated the vanishing of the Vodoni gods and the rise of Vulkaran might be a good place to start, though, insofar as a similar event may have transpired in Dantalion's home sphere. The Vodoni Empire was twelve spheres and was considered extremely significant for that scope, so if Dantalion hails from an empire even more impressive in scope, it likely wouldn't be anywhere near the known spheres. Beyond that, we know there were humans, which does limit the timeline somewhat; they would have risen well after the truly ancient civilizations, and likely were god-created rather than descendants of the reigar and lakshu. Still gives us an enormous span to look through. I suspect that we could reasonably assert, from the text of the Scion of Dantalion prestige class, that one of the gods who cursed them was Zarus - "at their worst, they can take their fervor for aiding humans to horrific extremes" suggests his particular flavor of bigotry and supremacist ideology. Dantalion himself (or whatever formed the core of the vestige) is so associated with knowledge, thought powers, and mental dominion that I would wager his people discovered and became proficient in psionics, likely to the point that they abandoned their gods, secure in their own mental powers. Zarus wouldn't take that lying down, especially if the discovery involved learning from or supporting non-humans in any way.

My only other conjecture, following from this, would be that Dantalion's origins in some way tie to the world of Talaron, and may be loosely tethered to the origin of the synads. Certainly the Talaire had no apparent support from their deities when the illithids destroyed Talaron, and their psigate diaspora would explain how a historical legend became a personal identifier among binders on many different worlds.

Likewise any idle conjecture on Ygorl and the Vaati in the Black Abyss would rock.

I've reached out to Shemmy to see if he can shed any light on that, since it was his own addition to the lore. My rough guess based on what we have available is that in an age long past, during the War of Law and Chaos, some beings linked to the side of Law but fleeing from the conflict communicated with the slaad lord Ygorl, who offered to provide them with safety from the War if they stole something for him - likely the runes of Law inscribed upon the Spawning Stone. Of course, Ygorl is Lord of Entropy; he would never be willing to create something which would endure eternally. Either purely by defying the covenant struck, or through some loophole, Ygorl eventually allowed the paradise-like demiplane to be devoured from within by a swirling abyss of entropy, the ruins holding on now only as proof of Ygorl's ancient barter.

Why is Blade Barrier a spell in the Good domain?

There is a reason, but it ain't a good one.

If we take the Watsonian interpretation, good-aligned deities offer the spell to their devout as a way to create a defense that punishes those who do not heed the warning and does so in a way that no fiend or foul undead creature can endure (unlike say fire, lightning, cold etc. all of which have flaws when it comes to one or more of these kinds of monsters). It is a way to enact restraint without forcibly restraining, a way to protect and provide cover to those needing succor, and an expression that the zeal for good does not find itself incompatible with the will to employ lethal force in defense of that which is deserving.

The Doylist interpretation is that they wanted to distinguish the Good domain from just being "if you're good, you heal people" and included a weapon for enacting justice and bringing force to bear without limiting factors like "but are they directly vulnerable to holy smite and holy word?" because Good sometimes has to confront neutrality, too.

As for the real reason... I have a very strong hunch that it's related to something we don't talk about on these forums. I will simply say "SCP-001-2" and let inquiring minds go looking and putting it together for themselves.

[Tzardok]

Interesting. This could suggest that Zarus is originally a Talairic deity. Food for thought.

Also, the mention of the Vodoni prompts another question: Did Spelljammer ever say anything about how lycanthropy IN SPACE works?

[Dalmosh]

1. Assuming Taint exists in a given iteration of the Great Wheel (I guess it is present in Planescape by default through the Rokugan Shadowlands, if nothing else)...

Would Illithids be aware of it, and how would they ward themselves against its effects, if at all? Presumably, really Depraved and Corrupted illithids would tend to be pariahs - so this would seem like a pretty major deal for illithid collectivism.

(Ed.) 2. For a cosmic lord of entropy, and one of the top tier Exemplar Lords, Ygorl doesn't seem to DO very much, or at least much that is documented. Was he likely, in general, to have been a bigger player during the War of Law and Chaos? If so, is it plausible that he is somehow restricted in reach/influence as a consequence of Law's victory? Within Limbo, how active is he in terms of stomping out Githzerai enclaves or the Divine Realms of minor powers from Prime religions?

[afroakuma]

Interesting. This could suggest that Zarus is originally a Talairic deity. Food for thought.

Nnnno, moreso that the Talaire were one of the peoples that formed part of his worshiper base at one point. Zarus is an ascended mortal and predates Talaron.

Also, the mention of the Vodoni prompts another question: Did Spelljammer ever say anything about how lycanthropy IN SPACE works?

Yep! True lycanthropes are capable of switching forms whenever, and there's no difference IIIIN SPAAAAACE. Infected lycanthropes are bonded to the lunar cycle of the planet on which they were infected (typically roughly 30 days) regardless of where they go in space, though theoretically other supernatural provocations might trigger the transformation. Lycanthropes who were originally infected IIIIN SPAAAAACE have a much rougher go - while it's likely that their transformation will be triggered by the rising of any "full" earth-body planet, planetoid, or moon in the sky of the terrestrial landscape they're currently visiting, they don't have a fixed cycle and can be triggered by other phenomena such as bloodshed or anger. In effect, they're much more erratic and unpredictable.

1. Assuming Taint exists in a given iteration of the Great Wheel

Ugh, do I have to? It was always a terribly-implemented mechanic...

Would Illithids be aware of it, and how would they ward themselves against its effects, if at all? Presumably, really Depraved and Corrupted illithids would tend to be pariahs - so this would seem like a pretty major deal for illithid collectivism.

They would have run into tainted beings at some point and become aware of the presence of living evil and its corruptive qualities... but they also wouldn't much care. The regular conduct of an illithid is evil as we understand it but does not contain the necessary qualities of cosmic evil to poison them with taint. There are, logically, those few insane ones who do conduct themselves in truly abominable ways, and become tainted as a result, but as you noted anyone who does that would be a pariah, likely well before any physical corruption took hold. At the end of the day, mind flayers are simply a different flavor of evil. No different for beholders, neogi, orcs, ogres, trolls, chromatic dragons... you don't simply go "hey its alignment contains the word Evil in it" and paint them in tar.

For a cosmic lord of entropy, and one of the top tier Exemplar Lords, Ygorl doesn't seem to DO very much, or at least much that is documented.

I mean, documentation would itself fly against his goals; Ygorl dispatches swarms of slaad to cause havoc and general problems on the Prime and in the Blood War; he's also been cultivating a lieutenant in the hopes of ascending her to Lord of Anarchy. His other major priority is ensuring that the slaad lords don't somehow end up getting recognized as deities, with attendant consequences. As "ruler" of Limbo, Ygorl is constantly herding cats made of flaming chainsaws, and sometimes that's not even figurative.

Was he likely, in general, to have been a bigger player during the War of Law and Chaos?

Doubtful, if only because the version of chaos being fought for wasn't in line with his own vision for chaos.

If so, is it plausible that he is somehow restricted in reach/influence as a consequence of Law's victory?

Egh... not super likely.

Within Limbo, how active is he in terms of stomping out Githzerai enclaves or the Divine Realms of minor powers from Prime religions?

He doesn't really care about either, though he might assault a githzerai enclave purely for entertainment purposes and to spread a bit more death and entropy into the cosmos. He rarely concerns himself with the affairs of the powers, as he's confident they will destroy each other or starve from lack of worship eventually and his efforts on the Prime are much more likely to yield dividends than picking fights with a literal god.

[Tzardok]

Nnnno, moreso that the Talaire were one of the peoples that formed part of his worshiper base at one point. Zarus is an ascended mortal and predates Talaron.

Huh. I didn't think there was even a kernel of truth to his "official" origin story. Do you think it's true that he was one of the first humans (propably not the first he claims to be; that would give him a certain claim to actually being a racial god of humanity)?

His other major priority is ensuring that the slaad lords don't somehow end up getting recognized as deities, with attendant consequences.

Is that... likely? Or just a "just in case" thing for him?

[Thealtruistorc]

Question that came up when I was digging through some old Dragon Magazine articles.

Does Abeir (the name which exists in certain supplements which 4e elaborated on as a parallel planet to Toril) have any significance in Frocanon? If so, what has the name been attributed to? Similarly, what if any of the Forgotten Realms novels written in the 2000s are worth considering for lore?

[Tzardok]

2e sources name the planet the Forgotten Realms are located on as Abeir-Toril, meaning "Cradle of Life". This name is usually shortened to Toril. The idea that Abeir is anything different on its own only appeared in 4e.

[afroakuma]

Huh. I didn't think there was even a kernel of truth to his "official" origin story.

I mean he was human and he ascended, and he wasn't made by any god. Those are the true bits.

Do you think it's true that he was one of the first humans (propably not the first he claims to be; that would give him a certain claim to actually being a racial god of humanity)?

One of the earlier generations, I would imagine; most likely a child or grandchild of the first generation to be abandoned by the reigar after they went on to do other things. His principles are a backlash against all things reigar - he's basically a god of sterility insofar as he believes perfection is defined as humanity and nothing should change or vary from that supposed ideal, and his hatred of mixing bloodlines would descent from his contempt for the true origins of humanity. It is possible, of course, that he was born considerably later and has his origins as a scholar studying the true origins of humanity, which when he discovered them... well, it both shook and enraged him. Given his cred as a deity, I would lean toward the former over the latter, since the more humanity is spread across the spheres, the less believable his supposed origin becomes.

Is that... likely? Or just a "just in case" thing for him?

Purely a just in case kind of thing. None of them pursue anything of the kind and Ygorl is honestly the one most at risk for it (I mean, who else even could be?)

Question that came up when I was digging through some old Dragon Magazine articles.

Does Abeir (the name which exists in certain supplements which 4e elaborated on as a parallel planet to Toril) have any significance in Frocanon? If so, what has the name been attributed to?

Just part of the longer, more formal name for the world. I would imagine some scholars have at one point or another employed "Toril" as a synecdoche for the Faerûn-Zakhara-Kara-Tur supercontinent and "Abeir" as a synecdoche for the Anchôrome-Maztica-Katashaka supercontinent.

Similarly, what if any of the Forgotten Realms novels written in the 2000s are worth considering for lore?

That... may take some significant digging on my part. There were definitely a few super-stinkers.

[Tzardok]

How do harpies reproduce? Are there male harpies, or a male counterpart to them, like with the medan for the medusa? Or do they need a male from another race, like hags do?

[Bohandas]

When Takhisis stole Krynn, did she just relocate the planet, or the entire crystal sphere?

[afroakuma]

How do harpies reproduce? Are there male harpies, or a male counterpart to them, like with the medan for the medusa? Or do they need a male from another race, like hags do?

The information is somewhat contradictory, but essentially it boils down to harpies do have two biological sexes, but only one gender (insofar as they even bother to think of such things). "Male" harpies resemble "female" harpies in every detail from an external standpoint, but internally would have different gonads (harpies possess cloacae rather than external genitalia). Harpies prefer to reproduce sexually, provided they desire to reproduce at all (they generally hate producing competition but recognize that there's a certain amount of safety in numbers), and can reproduce parthenogenetically in emergency situations. The average "female" harpy will produce roughly 20 eggs in her lifetime.

When Takhisis stole Krynn, did she just relocate the planet, or the entire crystal sphere?

Spoiler: I'd rather not open this can of worms but...

Show

Bearing in mind that Afro-canon doesn't recognize the War of Souls era (not least of which because I have not read the books), she did neither; one of those would be extremely difficult for a deity to do alone, the other literally impossible. Not that what she did was any better. In fact, Takhisis did something so monumentally stupid that it all but shut her down as a goddess for four decades, the kind of true and total idiocy that only the most arrogant deity would ever attempt. She actually yanked the planet across timelines, into a new timeline. This was so damaging that Krynn was actually disconnected from its original timeline and lost its "past," and in its alternate timestream things were, shall we say, warped severely. No other deity in history has tried something that monumentally absurd (note that in Afro-canon that would be no deity whatsoever, and we would not be talking about this), it took her an almost farcical amount of scheming to pull off, and the other gods were still able to make it right when they eventually discovered what she'd done. I mean it was absurd.

And before anyone asks, no I don't want to take theoretical questions on this concept and poke at them.

[Dalmosh]

What is known about Tharzax the Chattering Prince?

Is the Great Wheel at all likely to have an inverse lower surface that a planewalker could travel around by walking the correct paths from border to border, as on it's "top"?

[Fable Wright]

Is the Great Wheel at all likely to have an inverse lower surface that a planewalker could travel around by walking the correct paths from border to border, as on it's "top"?

Are you referring to the River Styx that crosses all the lower planes, or a land equivalent?