afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Bohandas]

In Faces of Sigil (my favourite RPG book, bar none, really) there's a Gith named... uh... (checks book) Djhek'nlarr who sells maps of the Lady's mazes. The Harmonium has made it known that

a) These maps are all FAKE. Totally FAKE. Don't buy them.
b) Possessing one of these maps is a capital crime.

RUmour has it that she has some kind of ability that lets her track people when they are mazed.She tricks people into getting mazed, then tracks them down on the ethereal plane, enters their mazes and maps them out. (There's a few theories offered about how she does it. She seems to pickpocket people's personal possessions. Some also claim that for some reason, mazed people leave behind a silver cord, like astral travellers, that only she can see. And that she can follow her own silver cord back out of the mazes to Sigil.)

This being Planescape, it's not actually confirmed if she can do it. Also unknown why the Lady hasn't killed her.

Presumably they are indeed fake and just make the mazes harder to get out of

[Eldan]

Not what her statblock seems to indicate.

[Edreyn]

Hello, again, everyone.
I apologize for not replying earlier. This thread is very interesting to read, and I do feel I need to say thanks for every answer I get here. So, doing it now. Many thanks for answering me!

Some comments about your answers:

A few examples that may or may not fulfill your criteria: Gruumsh is a chaotic god on lawful Archeron. He's there because the war is there. Ares (chaotic evil) and Athena (lawful good) of the Olympian pantheon live with most of the rest of them in Olympia on Arborea (chaotic good). Thrym (chaotic evil) and Sutr (lawful evil) dwell on Ysgard, because of their war with the Nordish pantheon.

By your definition, no. There are good-aligned outsiders doing that (eladrins fighting a hopeless battle in the Abyss to protect a small community of eladrin children trapped there by Pale Night). For a god to go fighting other gods is generally referred to as suicide, and they do not like doing so in an open fashion. Generally, gods going off to do things themselves is bad juju.

Afro's answer is more precise. I did mean deities living in completely antagonistic place, while being a part of pantheon isn't really such. And Gruumsh is a god of war, so he still fits Acheron.

For Baator, I see now that it's actually a popular place for evil deities. Didn't think so.

About the mazes - so no some specific stories about who and how managed to escape from the Maze?

And some new questions:

1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.

2) Is there any reason to believe that there is something even more larger then Multiverse? Like, let's call it Metaverse or Protoverse, that has a number of Multiverses in it.

3) Has it ever been discussed, in-game or out of it, that there might be even more Outer planes? Outer-outer-planes, for example a place where the outsiders that are killed on their own plane go to.

4) As I been rereading about Asmodeus and Pact Primeval, another thought came to me. Do deities actually answer to anyone? Yes, there are overgods, like Ao, but this isn't obviously the case.
Asmodeus tricked the gods of Law when he twisted the Pact to his own benefit. As one of the characters in Torment says, "This isn't Justice (or Law in our case) but the mockery of it".
Asmodeus directly mocked deities of Law, he perverted the agreement they had with him. Why they tolerated it? He was unjust, this is obvious. Their only punishment was to cast him down to Baator.
As I understand, they don't have to answer to some higher power, like absolute manifestation of pure Law, or an over-over-over-god. Why they simply didn't tear him apart for such a mockery? Why didn't strip him of power? Why didn't shove the Pact up to his nose? They don't need to answer to anyone, and he turned the spirit of the agreement to a vile mockery. Why they allowed him to get away with it?

Later, when a hierarchy of baatezu was formed, twisting agreements in a most dirty way became their way of life. But why on earth, Lawful Good or even Lawful Neutral entities tolerated this? Unlike devils, they do want the spirit, and not letter of agreement to be kept.

5) Again about Asmodeus. Before later editions he wan't a god. But he did have a full control on Baator. He once even changed the nature of an entire layer, in a seconds turning it from an endless slope to inside-a-body layout. He, obviously, was very powerful always. He has power to alter his plane, and for comparison Tanar'ri lords can't do that. He can grant clerical spells. He can destroy or unmake any of his subjects at any moment, at will. So, what makes him actually different from a "normal" deities?

[Tzardok]

1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.

We know that there is an end to the multiverse, as that's what the mind flayers were fleeing from when they traveled into the past. The Doomguard also believe that reality's time is measured (even if they can't agree on the when) and are sure that a better one will be created after the old one perishes. As to how it will likely happen: Do you remember the War between Dragon and Draeden? When the Draeden surrendered, existence was allowed to come to be. But they are still sleeping, and one day the Draeden will return and finish their war against everything that exists.

2) Is there any reason to believe that there is something even more larger then Multiverse? Like, let's call it Metaverse or Protoverse, that has a number of Multiverses in it.

There are a bunch of multiverses floating around in the void Afro calls the Vast Medium. The easiest (read: horrible difficult and dangerous, but halfway consistent) way to go from cosmology to cosmology are the deepest reaches of the Shadow.

3) Has it ever been discussed, in-game or out of it, that there might be even more Outer planes? Outer-outer-planes, for example a place where the outsiders that are killed on their own plane go to.

Outsiders do not have a soul seperate from their body that could go anywhere. Unless the outsider recorporates, the way fiends killed outside their homeplane do, their essence is simply absorbed by their homeplane (or, more rarely, the plane they died on).
There is a group of fan-made outer planes called the cordant planes; a second smaller circle of eight planes between the Outlands and the sixteen other outer planes. These planes are supposed to symbolize Neutrality with a tendency to another alignment, just like Arcadia, for example, is Law with tendency to Good.

4) As I been rereading about Asmodeus and Pact Primeval, another thought came to me. Do deities actually answer to anyone? Yes, there are overgods, like Ao, but this isn't obviously the case.
Asmodeus tricked the gods of Law when he twisted the Pact to his own benefit. As one of the characters in Torment says, "This isn't Justice (or Law in our case) but the mockery of it".
Asmodeus directly mocked deities of Law, he perverted the agreement they had with him. Why they tolerated it? He was unjust, this is obvious. Their only punishment was to cast him down to Baator.
As I understand, they don't have to answer to some higher power, like absolute manifestation of pure Law, or an over-over-over-god. Why they simply didn't tear him apart for such a mockery? Why didn't strip him of power? Why didn't shove the Pact up to his nose? They don't need to answer to anyone, and he turned the spirit of the agreement to a vile mockery. Why they allowed him to get away with it?

Later, when a hierarchy of baatezu was formed, twisting agreements in a most dirty way became their way of life. But why on earth, Lawful Good or even Lawful Neutral entities tolerated this? Unlike devils, they do want the spirit, and not letter of agreement to be kept.

First, the story is most likely not true, at least not in the details. Yes, the Pact exists, but no one knows what exactly it says or who were the signatories. It is quite unlikely that relatively young human deities like Heironeous or Cuthbert had a part in it.
Second, you miss the point about being lawful and honorable. Lawful means that you stick to your promises. You keep your oaths. How many knights and paladins swore to defend the innocent, even if it killed them, and then proceded to die in the defense of the weak? This is the flipside to that. They do not need a higher Law to police them, to force obeyence on them. They do that on their own. Because keeping promises is the right thing to do, even if the promise was stupid.
Yes, Asmodeus has perverted and twisted the Pact. But he hasn't broken it. He's still fulfilling his parts of the terms, whatever they may be. And that means the Pact is sacrosanct.

5) Again about Asmodeus. Before later editions he wan't a god. But he did have a full control on Baator. He once even changed the nature of an entire layer, in a seconds turning it from an endless slope to inside-a-body layout. He, obviously, was very powerful always. He has power to alter his plane, and for comparison Tanar'ri lords can't do that. He can grant clerical spells. He can destroy or unmake any of his subjects at any moment, at will. So, what makes him actually different from a "normal" deities?

Demon Princes are able to fully control and reshape the layers they control, just like Asmodeus. They are even better at it then deities, because a deity's divine realm is always finite, and most abyssal layers are infinite in size. They just can't control the whole of the Abyss, because the Abyss is chaotic and par definitionem shattered into many disparate factions, while Asmodeus, as lawful tyrant of the Hells, is granted power over all Hells.
Furthermore demon lords, other Lords of the Nine, the Celestial Hebdomad are able to grant celerical spells, just like Asmodeus can. This is something deities are better at than planar lords, and especially weaker lords often are restricted in the amount of divine magic they can grant, on account of just not having enough oomph.
Raising and demoting subjects is another thing that Asmodeus has in common with other planar lords, and none of them can truly do it "at will", as it is exhausting.
Summa summarum, next to nothing Asmodeus can do is truly unique or unusual amongst planar lords, it's just that the power that in the Abyss is divided amongst hundreds of demon lords is in the Hells concentrated in Asmodeus' hands, simply on account of the Hells' lawful nature. Obviously that means that Primus' power is even more concentrated, as unlike Asmodeus he doesn't have (or need to have, he isn't evil after all) scheming subordinates that get their own slice of the pie.

[Edreyn]

Outsiders do not have a soul seperate from their body that could go anywhere. Unless the outsider recorporates, the way fiends killed outside their homeplane do, their essence is simply absorbed by their homeplane (or, more rarely, the plane they died on).
There is a group of fan-made outer planes called the cordant planes; a second smaller circle of eight planes between the Outlands and the sixteen other outer planes. These planes are supposed to symbolize Neutrality with a tendency to another alignment, just like Arcadia, for example, is Law with tendency to Good.

I know about those, and that's not what I meant. I meant afterlife worlds for outsiders. So, no such a thing?

Second, you miss the point about being lawful and honorable. Lawful means that you stick to your promises. You keep your oaths. How many knights and paladins swore to defend the innocent, even if it killed them, and then proceded to die in the defense of the weak?

I absolutely can understand this argument, however I think this isn't similar case at all. What happened with Asmodeus and Law gods is more like a situation where the paladin found out that the old man he swore to protect is actually a maniac who kidnaps babies, skins them alive then eats them and consumes their souls. Should a paladin really stick to his oath in this case? I'd say not - the prime oath of being lawful globally outweighs any secondary oaths.

Demon Princes are able to fully control and reshape the layers they control, just like Asmodeus. They are even better at it then deities, because a deity's divine realm is always finite, and most abyssal layers are inifinite in size. They just can't control the whole of the Abyss, because the Abyss is chaotic and par definitionem shattered into many disparate factions, while Asmodeus, as lawful tyrant of the Hells, is granted power over all Hells.
Furthermore demon lords, other Lords of the Nine, the Celestial Hebdomad are able to grant celerical spells, just like Asmodeus can. This is something deities are better at than planar lords, and especially weaker lords often are restricted in the amount of divine magic they can grant, on account of just not having enough oomph.
Raising and demoting subjects is another thing that Asmodeus has in common with other planar lords, and none of them can truly do it "at will", as it is exhausting.
Summa summarum, nothing Asmodeus can do is truly unique or unusual amongst planar lords, it's just that the power that in the Abyss is divided amongst hundreds of demon lords is in the Hells concentrated in Asmodeus' hands, simply on account of the Hells' lawful nature. Obviously that means that Primus' power is even more concentrated, as unlike Asmodeus he doesn't have (or need to have, he isn't evil after all) scheming subordinates that get their own slice of the pie.

So, Asmodeus isn't more powerful then other similar creatures, but he simply abuses this power much more? Interesting, this is a good answer.

[Tzardok]

I know about those, and that's not what I meant. I meant afterlife worlds for outsiders. So, no such a thing?

Nope. Sorry.

I absolutely can understand this argument, however I think this isn't similar case at all. What happened with Asmodeus and Law gods is more like a situation where the paladin found out that the old man he swore to protect is actually a maniac who kidnaps babies, skins them alive then eats them and consumes their souls. Should a paladin really stick to his oath in this case? I'd say not - the prime oath of being lawful globally outweighs any secondary oaths.

The Paladin in your example would have to choose between doing something chaotic and allowing an evil to be perpetrated. Both could cause him to change alignment. He would more likely do some rules-lawyering and try to mitigate the damage, for example by imprisoning the murderer somewhere safe and trying to redeem him.
Whoever the Pact's signatories are, the Lawful Neutral ones won't care that Asmodeus perveted its spirit, as the Lawful Neutral stance can be summarized as "There is no spirit of the law. There is only the letter." And the Lawful Good ones try to curtail Asodeus' excesses, just like the paladin in the example. Lawful Evil isn't the only side that can engange in rules-lawyering.

I have a feeling you still underestimate the importance Law puts on honor. Understandable, as our society puts less emphysis on it than it did a thousand years ago. Let me give you an example for the mindset incarnations of Law operate under:

Do you know the story of Gawain and the Green Knight? It's one of the legends around King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. The story goes that one New Year's Eve the Knights were celebrating and had already drunk a lot, when a strange knight in green entered. He mocked the king and the knights, accusing them of cowardice. Finally he offered them a bet: one of them would do his best strike against the green knight, and one year later that one would go to the green knight and allow him to return the strike. Enraged, Sir Gawain accepted and beheaded the Green Knight.

The Green Knight picked up his head, reminded Gawain of his promise, and left.

The next parts of the story are less important for this, so I will skip them. Just know that after a few adventures searching for the Green Knight, Gawain found him, kneeled down, and allowed him to strike at his neck. And if the Green Knight hadn't shown him mercy, Gawain would be dead. For no gain at all. He had important duties. He had sworn to protect the nation at his king's side. Surely the older and broader oath would be more important than a foolish promise done while being roaring drunk?

No. It's not. To the Lawful, every promise is sacred. Even Lawful Evil does not break oaths. It may try to argue on why what they do is what was promised and not what you thought was promised, it may weasel its way through loopholes, it may come for revenge afterwards, but if pinned down, it does as promised. And that's just lawful people. Imagine how much more this is in effect for beings made of Law.

[Edreyn]

I have a feeling you still underestimate the importance Law puts on honor. Understandable, as our society puts less emphysis on it than it did a thousand years ago. Let me give you an example for the mindset incarnations of Law operate under:

Do you know the story of Gawain and the Green Knight?
...

We got an interesting discussion, hope we both enjoy it!
Now, I didn't know this story before. But yes, I understand what it is about.
A promise is a promise. In majority of cases I do try to keep mine.
As my own example I want to say about the book named The Knights of the Cross, by Sienkiewicz.
I really didn't like how easily protagonist gives vows (before the Lord!) then asks a priest to "cancel" them if he no longer wants to obey them.

But again, I see the difference between your example and the case with Asmodeus. From what I understand, the said Green Knight wasn't guilty in anything harsh. If he would be terrorizing Gawain or Arthur's subjects, or any other innocents, would it still be more honorable to die, rather then follow the oath to protect innocents against evil, even if you owe this evil something?

And, with Pact Primeval, the lawful gods actually handed him countless innocent (yet) on a silver plate.

No. It's not. To the Lawful, every promise is sacred. Even Lawful Evil does not break oaths. It may try to argue on why what they do is what was promised and not what you thought was promised, it may weasel its way through loopholes, it may come for revenge afterwards, but if pinned down, it does as promised. And that's just lawful people. Imagine how much more this is in effect for being made of Law.

I want to give a second example, which is said to be a real story. To avoid politics, I won't say where exactly it happened, just the story.

A student in one famous university once decided to "troll" his mentors a little. He checked the old books and found out, that centuries ago, there was a rule, that during the exam each student must get a plate of a cold beef and a mug of ale. He checked if the law was cancelled and found out that officially it was never cancelled. And he demanded this beef and ale on exams. Then he showed the said law in a book to shocked professors. And demanded that either he receives what's due, or he should get a free bonus to his grade. Professors tried to argue saying that the law is old, absolete and irrelevant, but he didn't care. They said then, that ordering from a restaurant is expensive, and also that alcohol is forbidden in this university, but the student insisted. In the end, in front of the audience of all other students, they barely convinced him to accept a meal from Macdonalds with a bottle of Cola. Student enjoyed how he mocked all the respected professors.

Next day (or in a few days) he was summoned to university trial. And was kicked outright. Why? Because, by the not-officially-cancelled law he had to bring the sword to the exam!

Now, that's how one should deal when someone is mocking the law. But the deities Asmodeus tricked didn't do anything of this sort.

[Tzardok]

And, with Pact Primeval, the lawful gods actually handed him countless innocent (yet) on a silver plate.

No, they didn't. That's the whole point of it (presumably. Don't forget, we don't know what it says). Asmodeus only has leave to take the damned. The loophole is that devils convince people to stop be innocent and start be damned. And this is where Good fights him: In the souls of the Prime.

Now, that's how one should deal when someone is mocking the law. But the deities Asmodeus tricked didn't do anything of this sort.

Isn't that what they do? "Oh sure, the Pact doesn't keep you from corrupting people into damnation, but it doesn't keep my agents from killing your corruptors too." How many preachers are there, extolling virtuus living and warning of damnation? How many heroes root out devil cults and corrupting baatezu? A whole lot more than there are devil's agents active and successful on the Prime, that you can believe me.

[Edreyn]

Isn't that what they do? "Oh sure, the Pact doesn't keep you from corrupting people into damnation, but it doesn't keep my agents from killing your corruptros too." How many preachers are there, extolling virtuus living and warning of damnation? How many heroes root out devil cults and corrupting baatezu? A whole lot more than there are devil's agents active and successful on the Prime, that you can believe me.

Yeah, I guess that's the closest thing to my example of what they can do. But even then, the one who is guilty of perverting the law remains unpunished - being cast down to Baator isn't exactly punishment for one such as him. That's how Law plays against itself.

Now, I am NOT against honor and keeping word. I myself hate both to break my own promises, or when someone breaks theirs. I am against twisting promises. This is unlawful act, much more unlawful then refusing to comply with it.

[enderlord99]

Twisting a promise isn't Chaotic. It may be Evil, but that's not a problem for Asmodeus (and, more importantly, is for most of those he allegedly tricked.)

[Fable Wright]

Now, I am NOT against honor and keeping word. I myself hate both to break my own promises, or when someone breaks theirs. I am against twisting promises. This is unlawful act, much more unlawful then refusing to comply with it.

Incorrect. You view it as an immoral or unconscionable act. Both of which are valid. It is not unlawful, or else EULAs to scalp people for data and bank contracts with extraordinarily evil fine print would be illegal.

Which they aren't, at least where I live.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.

We know that there is an end to the multiverse, as that's what the mind flayers were fleeing from when they traveled into the past. The Doomguard also believe that reality's time is measured (even if they can't agree on the when) and are sure that a better one will be created after the old one perishes. As to how it will likely happen: Do you remember the War between Dragon and Draeden? When the Draeden surrendered, existence was allowed to come to be. But they are still sleeping, and one day the Draeden will return and finish their war against everything that exists.

Eh, there's not really a solid canonical basis to believe that the multiverse has a definite end. The Doomguard believe time is finite, but the various Factions believe a lot of things, many of which are unprovable or simply incorrect. The draeden may one day wake, but it's not like they're on a particular timetable; they may be sleeping forever, or the dragons may find/have found a way to prevent them from waking, or they might be waiting to "wake" until all the gods kill themselves off and if that never happens they'll never act, or they might all suddenly die of the draeden equivalent of heart attacks, there's really no way to know where they're concerned.

As for the illithids, they weren't necessarily worried about an end to the multiverse, or even an end to the Material Plane. Lords of Madness claims that that's the case:

A starfaring race of great power existing at the very end of time, the mind flayers faced extinction with the imminent ending of all things. Through a great and terrible spell, the mind flayers dispatched great spelljamming fleets from the cold, pitiful remnants of their dying cosmos back through time, appearing in the ancient skies of younger worlds.

...but it's the only source to do so, all of the others just talking about "some ungodly distant time" (as per the Illithiad), and in any case that's in the "here's what people know about the origins of various aberrations and the truth may be different" section of the book.

Given that the illithid empire was specifically a "spelljamming empire" consisting mostly or entirely of Prime crystal spheres (the Illithiad says they controlled "worlds without number" and "infested" the Astral and Ethereal; Dawn of the Overmind says they controlled "several crystal spheres" plus some alternate Primes), and given that the LoM quote talks about "spelljamming fleets" and "younger worlds" (and not, say, an attempt to flee to/through the Astral), it's much more likely that the illithids were trying to escape the end of the particular worlds in their empire rather the end of the whole multiverse.

Because really, there's no evidence the Great Wheel has any sort of built-in ending. The planes have no concept of an expanding or contract spacetime that will end in a Big Freeze or Big Crunch respectively, and the only mention of "entropy" in fluff is in relation to either chaotic stuff (which is at worst in balance with lawful stuff or at best subordinate to Law after losing the War of Law and Chaos, with no known threat of encroaching on the rest of the Wheel) or negative energy (which is, as far as we know, basically balanced with positive energy at a multiversal level and capable of chugging along indefinitely) or Tharizdun (who's currently imprisoned and not really capable of advancing his agenda, only influencing patsies to try to free him). It's more likely that the multiverse is effectively eternal unless actively ended than that it's winding down and not a single entity has noticed or mentioned that fact for the millions of years that the Wheel has been around.

Incorrect. You view it as an immoral or unconscionable act. Both of which are valid. It is not unlawful, or else EULAs to scalp people for data and bank contracts with extraordinarily evil fine print would be illegal.

Which they aren't, at least where I live.

This is your [time interval]ly reminder that "un-Lawful" is not the same thing as "illegal" given that something or someone can be perfectly Lawful without adhering to any local legal code(s) or to any legal framework at all.</pedant>

But you're right, there's nothing un-Lawful about twisting promises. A devil can have as their guiding principle "Adhere strictly to the letter and spirit of any agreements made with other devils, but adhere strictly to the letter of any promise made to a mortal while attempting to twist the spirit of the promise as much as possible" and be perfectly reliable and consistent in their values and behavior, more so than an honorable (or "honorable") mortal who attempts to live up to their word but may sometimes fall short and much more so than a demon who might keep the spirit, break the spirit, keep the letter, or break the letter of any promise they make as the whim takes them.

In the words of Jack Sparrow, "A dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest, honestly--it's the honest ones you want to watch out for, 'cause you can never predict when they're going to do something incredibly...stupid."

[afroakuma]

About the mazes - so no some specific stories about who and how managed to escape from the Maze?

Not apart from those Eldan had mentioned.

1) There are some both canon and fan-made theories about how the Multiverse came to life. Are there any in-game\canon\fan predictions or prophecies how it might end? Like our world scientist predict the "heat death of the Universe". And I mean that Multiverse will be destroyed completely, and not captured by Baatezu or something similar.

Nothing specific that I have ever found to be of relevance, merely that the mind flayers fled from it - as far as they were concerned, at least, whether they are right or not is another matter entirely - to come back in time.

2) Is there any reason to believe that there is something even more larger then Multiverse? Like, let's call it Metaverse or Protoverse, that has a number of Multiverses in it.

I refer to it as the Vast Medium, though it has also been suggested that it might be known as the Macroverse.

3) Has it ever been discussed, in-game or out of it, that there might be even more Outer planes? Outer-outer-planes, for example a place where the outsiders that are killed on their own plane go to.

More Outer Planes? It has been theorized. Where dead outsiders go? Absolutely not.

4) As I been rereading about Asmodeus and Pact Primeval, another thought came to me. Do deities actually answer to anyone? Yes, there are overgods, like Ao, but this isn't obviously the case.

To one another, insofar as they can check each other's power, and to their faithful. Also to their overdeities where applicable.

Asmodeus directly mocked deities of Law, he perverted the agreement they had with him. Why they tolerated it? He was unjust, this is obvious. Their only punishment was to cast him down to Baator.

He was not unjust. He was immoral. As noted in that story, retribution - consequence, as it were - is the cornerstone of Law and of Justice. Asmodeus offered retribution, but then immorally engineered a situation in which retribution was owed to a greater number of souls than might have, without his interference, ended up under his sway.

As I understand, they don't have to answer to some higher power, like absolute manifestation of pure Law, or an over-over-over-god. Why they simply didn't tear him apart for such a mockery?

What would they do that for? With whom or with what would they replace him? The function he represents is required in order for said vision of the multiverse to function as they desire. Someone has to do it, and none of them were exactly leaping in to take charge. The fact that they are all mad at him is more of a feature than a bug, as it disincentivizes them to attempt to align with the Lord Below, bargain with him, or otherwise take sides within the larger cause of Law that might undermine it.

They don't need to answer to anyone, and he turned the spirit of the agreement to a vile mockery. Why they allowed him to get away with it?

Funny thing about Law - the spirit of the agreement can go pound sand. Law does not care about the spirit of the agreement. The letter is what matters. That is what makes it Law. As for not answering to anyone, by establishing that there was a need for Hell in their vision of the multiverse and teaching their faithful about it, they created a belief that they in fact do answer to - a belief in Asmodeus and his Nine Hells. Merely punching him so hard that he ceased existing for a bit would not be enough to erase that, and they are the ones who worked to make it so in the first place.

Anyway, the whole story is also just a baatezu press release, one of the countless ones that Asmodeus likes having spread about him to keep everyone guessing and make himself seem more impressive, so as with all things concerning the Lord Below, take it with a grain of salt.

5) Again about Asmodeus. Before later editions he wan't a god. But he did have a full control on Baator. He once even changed the nature of an entire layer, in a seconds turning it from an endless slope to inside-a-body layout. He, obviously, was very powerful always. He has power to alter his plane, and for comparison Tanar'ri lords can't do that. He can grant clerical spells. He can destroy or unmake any of his subjects at any moment, at will. So, what makes him actually different from a "normal" deities?

Tzardok covered a lot of what I would have said here, so I will just point out that Asmodeus doesn't abuse his powers any moreso than similar entities do. Apart from the reforging of Malbolge, he hasn't substantially altered a layer of Baator in... ever, as far as we know.

Spoiler

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Or at least, not without colliding with it...

Asmodeus is very powerful and very very cunning, and should not be underestimated, but it should also not be downplayed how much capacity his cognates in other planes have to do big things on their own as well.

[Bartmanhomer]

Which plane does the Evening Glory live on?

[afroakuma]

Which plane does the Evening Glory live on?

A canonical one was never given. I placed her on Pelion, third layer of Arborea.

[Bohandas]

This is your [time interval]ly reminder that "un-Lawful" is not the same thing as "illegal" given that something or someone can be perfectly Lawful without adhering to any local legal code(s) or to any legal framework at all.</pedant>

As an addendum to this, it should also be remembered that the same applies to the other alignments as well. The names are loaded and not necessarily accurate, and this goes a long way towards explaining alignment's apparent inconsistencies. (furthermore, the names in other languages may not be loaded the same way, and in particular the languages of the evil monsters likely do not use the same word for "Good" the alignment and "good" as in desirable)

[Bartmanhomer]

A canonical one was never given. I placed her on Pelion, third layer of Arborea.

An Undead True Neutral deity lived in a Chaotic Good plane......ok then.

[afroakuma]

An Undead True Neutral deity lived in a Chaotic Good plane......ok then.

Feel free to pitch me your alternative. I am confident my logic is sound.

Gods are not compelled to make their realms on a plane matching their alignment. The Outlands does not have to have every True Neutral deity.

[Edreyn]

Afro, thank you for your own answers.
Again, comments from me.

More Outer Planes? It has been theorized. Where dead outsiders go? Absolutely not.

I am putting emphasis on the word "Outer" and not the word "Planes". So, the meaning is NOT "larger number of Outer Planes", but "Planes that are positioned even further from the Outlands then the original ones."

The fan-made Outer Planes are more neutral and hence closer to Outlands.

What would they do that for? With whom or with what would they replace him? The function he represents is required in order for said vision of the multiverse to function as they desire. Someone has to do it, and none of them were exactly leaping in to take charge. The fact that they are all mad at him is more of a feature than a bug, as it disincentivizes them to attempt to align with the Lord Below, bargain with him, or otherwise take sides within the larger cause of Law that might undermine it.

Weren't there any other entities that wanted to punish either those guilty or those who are atheists?
Both Cyric and Kelemvor, each in his own way, tried to do something like that.
I don't believe that among first deities there wasn't someone with similar ideology and skills.

I hope you are not offended that I am arguing with you. I want to share my opinion and not insult yours.

Anyway, the whole story is also just a baatezu press release, one of the countless ones that Asmodeus likes having spread about him to keep everyone guessing and make himself seem more impressive, so as with all things concerning the Lord Below, take it with a grain of salt.

Yeah, he is Lord of Lies.

Funny thing about Law - the spirit of the agreement can go pound sand. Law does not care about the spirit of the agreement. The letter is what matters.

Again, sorry, but I am not sure that in Planescape world lawful guys believe it, or at least not everyone.
What I am talking about - there is a faction in Sigil that follows exactly this ideology - Fated. That's their motto - to twist all rules, laws and promises as you see fit. And that's exactly why Law factions hate them most direly. But unlike with Indeps, Fated bite back, so harder to eradicate.

Yes, Guvners are sometimes accused in finding loopholes in laws, but in the majority Guvners don't use it for own benefit, at least not that dirty.
I see them more close to real world scientists - one can say that scientists are looking how to go around laws of nature, like if one has no wings, he can build a flying machine.

I refer to it as the Vast Medium, though it has also been suggested that it might be known as the Macroverse.

Are there some interesting stories or articles about it?

Again, I enjoy the discussion, and hope everyone else does too. If not, just ask me to stop and I will.

[Tzardok]

Weren't there any other entities that wanted to punish either those guilty or those who are atheists?
Both Cyric and Kelemvor, each in his own way, tried to do something like that.
I don't believe that among first deities there wasn't someone with similar ideology and skills.

Except for Guide to Hell, no book has ever connected Asmodeus with atheism. In fact, people worshipping Asmodeus is the opposite of atheism.
Also of importance is that the "no atheism" clause is specifically a Toril (or at least Faerûn) thing. Cyric and Kelemvor didn't start it; their precedessors Myrkul and Jergal already did the same thing. In fact, Kelemvor was chewed out by the other deities for not indescriminately punishing atheists, instead giving them an afterlife based on good and evil deeds, thereby inadvertently encouraging atheism. This makes it likely that it a "Ao wills it" or at least a "tradition and convention wills it" thing.

Yeah, he is Lord of Lies.

Nope, that's Baalzebul's title.

Again, sorry, but I am not sure that in Planescape world lawful guys believe it, or at least not everyone.
What I am talking about - there is a faction in Sigil that follows exactly this ideology - Fated. That's their motto - to twist all rules, laws and promises as you see fit. And that's exactly why Law factions hate them most direly. But unlike with Indeps, Fated bite back, so harder to eradicate.

Uhm, no. The Fated philosophy is "Might makes Right" with a dash of "Self-sufficiency is king". The fact that a Fated will without thought break any promise he doesn't believe will be to his own benefit, together with the fact that they feel most at home in Ysgard suggests that they are a primarily chaotic ideology. Something you yourself also believe, or you wouldn't compare them to the Indeps, who espouse the chaotic ideology of "Think for yourself".

Edit: Also, I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that the lawful factions hate and hunt the Fated, as they fulfill a role vital for Sigil's government under the factions: they are the tax collectors.

[Bartmanhomer]

Feel free to pitch me your alternative. I am confident my logic is sound.

Gods are not compelled to make their realms on a plane matching their alignment. The Outlands does not have to have every True Neutral deity.

This is just my opinion but I think Evening Glory fits in the Outlands more appropriately.

[afroakuma]

I am putting emphasis on the word "Outer" and not the word "Planes". So, the meaning is NOT "larger number of Outer Planes", but "Planes that are positioned even further from the Outlands then the original ones."

Not particularly. There hasn't been any notion of "further Out" in that sense that I have seen. I am not certain what the point would be or what would differentiate them from more extreme layers of the existing Outer Planes.

Weren't there any other entities that wanted to punish either those guilty or those who are atheists?

It is not the job of Asmodeus to punish atheists. Outside of the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms, which made atheists the problem of the God of Death, and one the mortal-originated death gods have been so profoundly incapable of resolving that they mortared them into a dumb wall, atheists are not inherently due any kind of punishment in the afterlife.

I don't believe that among first deities there wasn't someone with similar ideology and skills.

It is a lack of skill that created the Wall of the Faithless, as Myrkul couldn't figure out a safe way to deal with the souls of atheists piling up. Cyric left it because he's a huge jerk. Kelemvor tried to revoke it, but discovered that people would abandon their gods to cast themselves on his mercy when they believed they had the alternative, which stoked larger problems.

I hope you are not offended that I am arguing with you. I want to share my opinion and not insult yours.

I am not.

Again, sorry, but I am not sure that in Planescape world lawful guys believe it, or at least not everyone.
What I am talking about - there is a faction in Sigil that follows exactly this ideology - Fated. That's their motto - to twist all rules, laws and promises as you see fit. And that's exactly why Law factions hate them most direly. But unlike with Indeps, Fated bite back, so harder to eradicate.

The Fated do not align with that whatsoever. Neither the letter nor the spirit of the law bind the Fated to anything, only the direct force of the law. To the Fated, if you can do a thing - not are permitted to, but are able to - and you want to do a thing, then do it. This is inherently Chaotic - the exaltation of the self and repudiation of an external order. Asmodeus believes very strongly in rules, he just believes that he is best qualified to set them and that one who has mastery of rules knows the exact parameters of how they can be abused. That doesn't make him Chaotic, it makes him Evil.

With respect to the story of the Pact Primeval, Asmodeus would argue that the loophole which allowed him to tempt mortals to sin is not in any way his fault, but rather the fault of the lawful gods, who - if their priority had really been to ensure souls were saved from damnation, rather than to sanction them for misbehavior - would have ensured no such loophole existed. They certainly could have invested their efforts toward that end, but they did not, because they created a tool to fit their intention. As far as Asmodeus is concerned, therefore, even the spirit of the Pact Primeval does not restrain him, because it was created in the spirit of punishment by entities who could have done better but had other priorities. They did get what they wanted. Asmodeus will not feel any amount of contrition that the gods of Law didn't want the right thing. That's on them.

Are there some interesting stories or articles about it?

None.

Again, I enjoy the discussion, and hope everyone else does too. If not, just ask me to stop and I will.

I mean, that is what the thread is here for.

This is just my opinion but I think Evening Glory fits in the Outlands more appropriately.

Do you have any rationale, other than the alignment of the plane? The Outlands has nothing in particular to do with her portfolio.

Spoiler

Show

To say nothing of the fact that the domains table in Libris Mortis gives away that she was intended to be written as Chaotic Good.

[Tzardok]

I mean, that is what the thread is here for.

I personally am just happy that the thread has approached the activity level of the fifth and sixth thread. That was a good time. *nostalgic dreams*

Edit:

It is a lack of skill that created the Wall of the Faithless, as Myrkul couldn't figure out a safe way to deal with the souls of atheists piling up. Cyric left it because he's a huge jerk. Kelemvor tried to revoke it, but discovered that people would abandon their gods to cast themselves on his mercy when they believed they had the alternative, which stoked larger problems.

By the way, is anything known about how Jergal managed that particular problem and why Myrkul didn't just ask him? I mean, Jergal became his sucessors' seneschal, he was available.

[Bartmanhomer]

Not particularly. There hasn't been any notion of "further Out" in that sense that I have seen. I am not certain what the point would be or what would differentiate them from more extreme layers of the existing Outer Planes.



It is not the job of Asmodeus to punish atheists. Outside of the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms, which made atheists the problem of the God of Death, and one the mortal-originated death gods have been so profoundly incapable of resolving that they mortared them into a dumb wall, atheists are not inherently due any kind of punishment in the afterlife.



It is a lack of skill that created the Wall of the Faithless, as Myrkul couldn't figure out a safe way to deal with the souls of atheists piling up. Cyric left it because he's a huge jerk. Kelemvor tried to revoke it, but discovered that people would abandon their gods to cast themselves on his mercy when they believed they had the alternative, which stoked larger problems.



I am not.



The Fated do not align with that whatsoever. Neither the letter nor the spirit of the law bind the Fated to anything, only the direct force of the law. To the Fated, if you can do a thing - not are permitted to, but are able to - and you want to do a thing, then do it. This is inherently Chaotic - the exaltation of the self and repudiation of an external order. Asmodeus believes very strongly in rules, he just believes that he is best qualified to set them and that one who has mastery of rules knows the exact parameters of how they can be abused. That doesn't make him Chaotic, it makes him Evil.

With respect to the story of the Pact Primeval, Asmodeus would argue that the loophole which allowed him to tempt mortals to sin is not in any way his fault, but rather the fault of the lawful gods, who - if their priority had really been to ensure souls were saved from damnation, rather than to sanction them for misbehavior - would have ensured no such loophole existed. They certainly could have invested their efforts toward that end, but they did not, because they created a tool to fit their intention. As far as Asmodeus is concerned, therefore, even the spirit of the Pact Primeval does not restrain him, because it was created in the spirit of punishment by entities who could have done better but had other priorities. They did get what they wanted. Asmodeus will not feel any amount of contrition that the gods of Law didn't want the right thing. That's on them.



None.



I mean, that is what the thread is here for.



Do you have any rationale, other than the alignment of the plane? The Outlands has nothing in particular to do with her portfolio.

Spoiler

Show

To say nothing of the fact that the domains table in Libris Mortis gives away that she was intended to be written as Chaotic Good.

No. Not really unfortunately.

[Tzardok]

No. Not really unfortunately.

Could you please only quote the part of a post you actually are referring to? I don't think this is the first time I asked you to do that.

[Bartmanhomer]

Could you please only quote the part of a post you are referring to? I don't think this is the first time I asked you to do that.

I was referring to the Evening Glory being on the Outlands.

[Tzardok]

I was referring to the Evening Glory being on the Outlands.

I could infer what you meant. What annoys me is the fact that the quote was, depending on how you zoom and if you are on mobile or not, at least 35 lines long, while you answered with a single line that refered only to the last line of the quote. When reading the thread on mobile, that's an aweful lot of scrolling for very little gain. In short, it's rude.

[Bartmanhomer]

I could infer what you meant. What annoys me is the fact that the quote was, depending on how you zoom and if you are on mobile or not, at least 35 lines long, while you answered with a single line that refered only to the last line of the quote. When reading the thread on mobile, that's an aweful lot of scrolling for very little gain. In short, it's rude.

Well I do apologize for that.

[afroakuma]

By the way, is anything known about how Jergal managed that particular problem and why Myrkul didn't just ask him? I mean, Jergal became his sucessors' seneschal, he was available.

I would imagine it was a confluence of factors, not least of which of course is that Jergal at his height was far more powerful than Myrkul or Kelemvor. Only Cyric came close to him, and Cyric would never have made an effort to do anything productive. Even if he could have told Myrkul how he did it, that does not mean that Myrkul could have, or would have, taken the same steps.

[Edreyn]

I guess I shouldn't write when tired.

Uhm, no. The Fated philosophy is "Might makes Right" with a dash of "Self-sufficiency is king". The fact that a Fated will without thought break any promise he doesn't believe will be to his own benefit, together with the fact that they feel most at home in Ysgard suggests that they are a primarily chaotic ideology. Something you yourself also believe, or you wouldn't compare them to the Indeps, who espouse the chaotic ideology of "Think for yourself".

Edit: Also, I'm not sure how you came up with the idea that the lawful factions hate and hunt the Fated, as they fulfill a role vital for Sigil's government under the factions: they are the tax collectors.

That's what I actually meant. Law factions, especially the Hardheaded Harmonium hate less-lawful factions. Among them, Indeps are most vulnerable, that's why Harmonium guys kill them whenever they can. They can't do it with others, for example it's hard to catch a Anarchist on hot, and as you said, Fated are too important to risk harming them. But they do hate them nevertheless.

Now, why I compared Fated to Asmodeus. In one of lore books, there is a short story on how Fated sold another faction a library. And only after getting their money, they said that they only were selling a building, a structure, not the books and scrolls that the buyer actually wanted.

So, is this breaking a promise, or finding a loophole in it? I see it exactly the same situation as with Pact.

Evening Glory

Had to google about who she is, but now agree with Afro, if she is a goddess of love, even from beyond the grave, she obviously belongs to Arborea. Love, especially the non-standard type of it? Obviously Chaotic Good.

Some additional questions:

1) Do over-gods also reside on Outer Planes? Do they have some manifestations\avatars there? If not, do they live "physically" elsewhere in the known parts of Multiverse? The further-Outer planes I asked about earlier could be such a place, for example.

2) Are there deities living (and not floating around dead) in Astral or Etherial? If yes, do they have petitioners?

3) Many times people mentioned Ordeal plane. Are there any descriptions on how it looks, what physical (or equivalent) laws it has and who lives there? Or only speculations? Maybe the over-gods live there?

4) What happens if a person, who is not a god and not similar to Asmodeus, is being worshiped? I guess there are quite enough examples: both Githyanki and Githzerai worship their leaders, Darksun kings are also worshipped as gods, or in Neverwinter Nights there was a dragolich Vix'thra who forced people not just obey, but actually worship him.
How real deities with actual divine rank look on this? Can one actually become a god in such a case? What happens with them upon death?

5) In the famous Dragonlance series, there was a girl named Mina. She was a goddess, but didn't know this. She thought that her power comes from worshiping Takhisis, and no one directly worshiped Mina herself. What happens to creatures like her if they try to get into Sigil (oblivious to their true nature). Can they die on Prime? Are there any examples of those in "generic" Planescape setting?

6) Are Tiamat and Takhisis same entity or different ones? They are way too similar. Why Planescape puts Takhisis on Baator and Krynn in Abyss? What is actually correct?

7) Except Limbo, are there other places where mortal can re-shape his surroundings using only his will?