afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Edreyn]

I was waiting, hoping to get some info on interesting settlements on Inner or Outer Planes (see my older questions), but if there are no specific places, then never mind. Thank you in any case.

Now, more to discuss.

1) Many wizards summon evil outsiders. Also, in some cases, people summon good outsiders. What about Modrons and Slaads? Are there any cases where a wizard will want to summon them, and not good or evil creaturers?

I obviously can imagine cases where one would want to summon a modron - to make some complex calculations. For example predict the potential outcome of some important action, like declaring a war. In our world, people use complex computer algorithms for this, in a Planescape world, people might use a Modron for this. Or to invent\construct a powerful weapon of some new type.

And as for Slaads (Slaadi?), well it's less associating with something, but I imagine that they can be useful, if one wants to cause a lot of chaos, but with fewer casualties as if he would use a demon.

2) If a person from Prime summons someone from Outer Plane, can he only summon outsiders, or the mortals can be summoned too?
For example, if an adventurer got trapped on Lower Planes, can his friends use summoning spell to pull him out?

3) More about the (in)famous Carceri. As I understand, being a Lower Plane, it must be touched by a Blood War. With the scarcity of portals around, how do "participants" get in or out? Will the plane itself prevent them from leaving?

4) Is it possible, that a prisoner of Carceri will attempt to join an army of baatezu\tanar'ri passing by, to use them to leave the plane? Even if he will desert right after stepping through the portal? What do locals fear more - staying prisoners of Carceri, or participating in a Blood War?

5) If a prisoner of Carceri somehow finds a way to become more powerful then the one who sent him there, will he actually be able to escape? Will gehreleths pursue him in this case?\

6) Are less evil Planes - Acheron and Pandemonium also touched by Blood War? If they are, how does Blood War affects Free-For-All constant wars on Acheron?

7) Is it only my imagination, or all the Lawful Planes, with exception of Celestia are extremely unfriendly, in some aspects even more then Chaotic ones?
Remember when I once asked why the Carceri is so bad? Now I wonder why Arcadia is considered even partly Good. It has a good climate yes, but people there seem to be VERY unfriendly to outsiders. In the best case they tell visitors to finish their business and leave, sometimes male leave right away, and in the worst case attack. On Mechanus locals won't turn everyone away, but also will give no mercy to someone who breaks a law, even if it seems insignificant.

As for Chaotic, Ysgard seems to be quite welcoming to those who are brave, and on Limbo all the person needs is to adapt, and has the chance to build his own paradise literally with his will. Limbo also has some friendly settlements, like a village of halflings.

8) Gate towns on Outlands, specifically with gates to Evil planes. Considering how bad they are, why they have so large populations? Larger then cities with gates to nicer places, with few exceptions. Unlike petitioners, those people can choose where to live. Why they don't flee en-masse or why they settle there in the first place? I believe the majority CAN choose.

[Tzardok]

2) If a person from Prime summons someone from Outer Plane, can he only summon outsiders, or the mortals can be summoned too?
For example, if an adventurer got trapped on Lower Planes, can his friends use summoning spell to pull him out?

Summoning is useless for that, as summoning spells are temporary. Calling, on the other hand, could be useful, but I'm not sure. I think you can call only things that are not native to your own plane, but... *shrug*

3) More about the (in)famous Carceri. As I understand, being a Lower Plane, it must be touched by a Blood War. With the scarcity of portals around, how do "participants" get in or out? Will the plane itself prevent them from leaving?

Besides the possibility to use the Outlands to just walk around Carceri, I imagine that the armies of the Blood War have pretty good maps of the most reliable ways to get out. Also, the Maerenoloths aren't the only people that can travel on the Styx, they just are the best at it. So fleets of devils and demons just passing through by way of the Styx are possible. Carceri most likely won't get a grip on them as they are already "owned" by their homeplanes.

4) Is it possible, that a prisoner of Carceri will attempt to join an army of baatezu\tanar'ri passing by, to use them to leave the plane? Even if he will desert right after stepping through the portal? What do locals fear more - staying prisoners of Carceri, or participating in a Blood War?

As with everything else regarding Carceri's prisoners, the answer is: no, they wouldn't. It would mean that they needed to accept that they needed help to escape, and they hate that.
This is just one of the rare cases where that is the smart decision, as fighting in the Blood War is a very good way to become very quickly very dead.

5) If a prisoner of Carceri somehow finds a way to become more powerful then the one who sent him there, will he actually be able to escape? Will gehreleths pursue him in this case?\

Possibly. I read a story blurb once about some guy who travelled to the lowest depths of Carceri while becoming stronger and found a gate there that allowed him to escape. He was telling the story to the one that imprisoned him while killing him, so...

6) Are less evil Planes - Acheron and Pandemonium also touched by Blood War? If they are, how does Blood War affects Free-For-All constant wars on Acheron?

That happens only rarely. Generally when the Blood War reaches Baator/the Abyss, the invaders want to get deeper and eradicate their enemies, not go beyond. It's a bit like if Mexico was at war with the US and an invasion force teared through the States, only to reach Canada and start fighting there.

7) Is it only my imagination, or all the Lawful Planes, with exception of Celestia are extremely unfriendly, in some aspects even more then Chaotic ones?
Remember when I once asked why the Carceri is so bad? Now I wonder why Arcadia is considered even partly Good. It has a good climate yes, but people there seem to be VERY unfriendly to outsiders. In the best case they tell visitors to finish their business and leave, sometimes male leave right away, and in the worst case attack. On Mechanus locals won't turn everyone away, but also will give no mercy to someone who breaks a law, even if it seems insignificant.

As for Chaotic, Ysgard seems to be quite welcoming to those who are brave, and on Limbo all the person needs is to adapt, and has the chance to build his own paradise literally with his will. Limbo also has some friendly settlements, like a village of halflings.

I generally do not see your problems. Arcadia is a nice place to live, if you like routine and have no problems with following the law. People do their job, you do your job, when a war happens you get your two weeks notice so that you can keep away from the batttlefield and people can adjust their business to it. Sounds paradisical to me. The only problem is that adventurers tend to be disruptive by their very nature, which explains why the locals are generally not happy about them.

Ysgard is much less nice. Yes, everywhere is adventure and challenge. But what if you don't like hotter summers and harsher winters than possible? What if you don't want to climb an impossibly high mountain just to visit your friend in the neighbouring village for a cup of tea? What if you don't want to walk uphill in both directions in the snow to ply your wares? Ysgard is fun for adventures, but not for normal people. Arcadia is the other way round.

Mechanus compares favourably to Limbo too. Yes, Mechanus is disorientating at first, but if you understand the regularities by which the environment works, you can get anywhere quickly. The natives are like that, too. You learn and follow the laws, and no one bothers you. You learn how the people work, and they are predictable. And I'm pretty sure that nowhere is learning the rules forbidden, so no one will decry for asking before you do something.

Limbo, compared to that, is Hell. You fall through a whirling mess of fire, water, earth and air, see and hear things emerging from and disapearing into the primal chaos while your magic palys merry havoc. Most people lack the training and/or will power to truly gain control of a part of Limbo for longer than a few minutes, and the natives range from gruff and unappraochable (Githzerai), to completely unpredictable (Slaadi). When talking to a Modron about going home, it will make you fill an application in triplicate. When asking a Slaad, he could lead you to a portal, but he could just as likely kidnap you, put you into a dress and play tea party or (just as likely) eat you from the toenails up.

8) Gate towns on Outlands, specifically with gates to Evil planes. Considering how bad they are, why they have so large populations? Larger then cities with gates to nicer places, with few exceptions. Unlike petitioners, those people can choose where to live. Why they don't flee en-masse or why they settle there in the first place? I believe the majority CAN choose.

I am not quite sure, but I think the majority of inhabitants in the Gate Towns are petioners that were neutral in life, but had an tendency to another alignment. So if you generally were neutral, but consistently did occasional chaotic evil things, you would land in Plague-Mort. Combine that with the fact that at least a sizeable minority of those living in a Gate Town want the town to shift to the other side by making it more of the respective alignment, and you have a good reason to live there. (Also there are a whole bunch of people who want the Town to stay where it is, thank you very much, and those a) need to be there to counterbalance, and b) are counterbalancing the badness (or goodness), making it less horrible than it could be.)

[Edreyn]

This part:

I generally do not see your problems. Arcadia is a nice place to live, if you like routine and have no probelms with following the law. People do their, you do your job, when a war happens you get your two weeks notice so that you can keep away from the batttlefield and people can adjust their business to it. Sounds paradisical to me. The only problem is that adventurers tend to be disruptive by their very nature, which explains why the locals are generally not happy about them.

Again, it seems we imagine this place quite differently.

Also, you are talking about living there, and I am about visiting it, or perhaps settling there while being a mortal and born elsewhere.

One of lore books, the one about Planes of Law describe locals as very unfriendly to outsiders.
I have it in Russian, so can't give exact quotes, but here's what it says in my words, translated back to English:

A) Hostility level is about the same as on Ysgard.
B) Locals try to force everyone around to submit to their's point of view about Law and Good.
C) It's recommended that those of not LG alignment not to visit here at all.
- Chaotic good are tolerated while they uphold the law
- Neutral good are getting a suggestion to finish their business and leave.
- Evil are attacked on sight
- Neutral are being escorted to the closest portal
D) Arcadians actively root out settlements formed by non LG creatures.

Up to me, this is a plane of fanatics. While technically, they fit into the DnD identification of Lawful-Lawful-Good, by our world standards locals are really nationalistic and cold-hearted.

Some time ago, one man posted a thread asking what Upper Plane other's would choose as their own paradise. I chose Bytopia, and there were some others that chose it too. Bytopia is also LG, but with more Good, than Law. Arcadia is the other way around. This difference between Planes that are so close to each other is somewhat... scary.

I, of course, won't compare Arcadia to Acheron and Baator, but its populace is obviously less friendly then people from Celestia and even Mechanus.

As for Mechanus

You learn and follow the laws, and no one bothers you.

Again, the lore does say, that a visitor can be executed for breaking a law he wasn't aware about, and that even may seem senseless. Like screaming or crying in an inappropriate place or time.
Many if not all actions require to be allowed in advance, again it might be something completely generic.
Some people are even afraid to speak, because it can increase chaos, they use gestures instead.

Again, quote from the book I have on Russian: it's suggested that a visitor brings a 300-volumed "minimal" codex of laws.

Yes, if you ask about laws, locals will answer. But can you be sure that talking to local in this specific place and time isn't a crime that demands a capital punishment?

I am not quite sure, but I think the majority of inhabitants in the Gate Towns are petioners that were neutral in life, but had an tendency to another alignment.

Don't know, I actually imagined the majority of Outlands cities inhabitants as mortals.

[Tzardok]

Now, I can't tell you how accurate all this is, as I haven't read Planes of Law in ages and am drawing mostly on 3.x sources. (I find it kind of strange that Arcadians treat chaotic good people better than neutral good, but whatever.)

The main point is that every plane has both good and bad sides, and any description may focus more on the positive or the negative. (Yes, even Baator can be described positively: "It's a place where the ambitious and cunning can rise to the top and enjoy the fruits of their power;" and Elysium (especially Elysium) can be described negatively: "It's being blissed out on drugs forever as a place." Your descriptions of the lawful planes stressed the bad parts while mine stressed the things I see as good, while with chaos we did it the other way round.

A few specific counterpoints: I do not think that my descriptions only deal with the denizens and not immigrants or visitors. An immigrant that is willing to fit itself into the Arcadian society will be treated as one of them, just as it is in many other places. The harshness of Ysgard is also something that affects natives and foreigners equally.

Arcadia has different nations with different laws and presumably different interpretations of their alignment. That's part of why they have their wars, after all. If you don't like one specific interpretation, maybe another is more to your liking.

Celestia is not that much better than Arcadia in it's "everyone should be lawful good" ways. For example there is a city in Lunia, ruled by Lamassu, that doesn't want visitors to leave. Wouldn't it be so much better to be educated in the ways of lawful good while staying there forever? It's for your own good that we keep you here.

[hamishspence]

Now, I can't tell you how accurate all this is, as I haven't read Planes of Law in ages and am drawing mostly on 3.x sources. (I find it kind of strange that Arcadians treat chaotic good people better than neutral good, but whatever.)

The exact phrasing in Manual of The Planes 3.0 (page 130-131)

Using their abilities to discern the alignment of all they meet, einheriar make it their business to police the plane. If they catch any nonlawful or nongood creatures, they have three possible courses of action. Chaotic good or neutral good visitors are tolerated so long as they follow the laws of Arcadia. Those who are truly neutral are asked to finish their business and leave. Those who are tainted with evil in any aspect are immediately and remorselessly attacked.

So, it's only those who are TN (or, arguably, CN, since those are "truly neutral" on the moral axis) that are asked to leave. NG people can stay if they behave.

[afroakuma]

I may just not be looking hard enough, but...is there any info on which areas of the plane of Earth (or other planes) are particularly rich in rare/valuable materials, and what kind of rare/valuable materials may be present? I'm assuming, at the very least, that the plane of Earth should have some pretty sizable deposits of gold, platinum, gems etc.

Being an infinite plane, there are endless areas where veins of valuable metals and the occasional gem crop up. Generally if you are in the market for gems, though, you would want the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Minerals.

Also, any guides or ideas on what kind of profits (gp/day) could be made if one were to find a particularly rich deposit of something valuable?

You'd still have to extract it and get it to market, and arguably that is more hazardous to do on an Inner Plane than on the Prime, as the locals are much more in tune with the supply and will get very very cranky about having it mined and carted off.

I was waiting, hoping to get some info on interesting settlements on Inner or Outer Planes (see my older questions), but if there are no specific places, then never mind. Thank you in any case.

You asked an open-ended question looking for a large-volume answer. Those take time. I will get to it when I get to it.

1) Many wizards summon evil outsiders. Also, in some cases, people summon good outsiders. What about Modrons and Slaads? Are there any cases where a wizard will want to summon them, and not good or evil creaturers?

Certainly, but less common by and large.

2) If a person from Prime summons someone from Outer Plane, can he only summon outsiders, or the mortals can be summoned too?
For example, if an adventurer got trapped on Lower Planes, can his friends use summoning spell to pull him out?

They cannot. A summoning spell would not move anyone, nor could it even address a random traveler on a Lower Plane. You want a gate spell for that purpose.

3) More about the (in)famous Carceri. As I understand, being a Lower Plane, it must be touched by a Blood War. With the scarcity of portals around, how do "participants" get in or out? Will the plane itself prevent them from leaving?

There are plenty of portals on the top layer, and the fiends use them en masse. Carceri has precious little interest in the average fiend from another plane and the gehreleths don't bother policing Blood War battlegrounds most of the time, unless one of their existing prisoners tries to get clever.

4) Is it possible, that a prisoner of Carceri will attempt to join an army of baatezu\tanar'ri passing by, to use them to leave the plane? Even if he will desert right after stepping through the portal? What do locals fear more - staying prisoners of Carceri, or participating in a Blood War?

See above, and remember that the locals don't fear Carceri, they resent it - and their suspicion and resentment of getting involved in the cause of an extraplanar army would be far greater, because that is how Carceri gets you.

5) If a prisoner of Carceri somehow finds a way to become more powerful then the one who sent him there, will he actually be able to escape? Will gehreleths pursue him in this case?

Remember that it is not just about power compared to some individual or group, but also the personal growth required to get free of your resentment, suspicion, and spite. That kind of growth is much harder to attain on the plane, especially as so many focus on the first kind.

6) Are less evil Planes - Acheron and Pandemonium also touched by Blood War? If they are, how does Blood War affects Free-For-All constant wars on Acheron?

Almost never. There is no tactical advantage to be had from it, and each of them is uniquely unfriendly to the Blood War in their own way - Acheron through the other wars already going on, Pandemonium through the maddening emptiness and killing winds.

7) Is it only my imagination, or all the Lawful Planes, with exception of Celestia are extremely unfriendly, in some aspects even more then Chaotic ones?

All planes are challenging in some way. Lawful planes have some expectations of your personal comportment, in exchange for having rules of some stripe about how you are to be treated. Chaotic planes have neither, for good and ill.

Remember when I once asked why the Carceri is so bad? Now I wonder why Arcadia is considered even partly Good. It has a good climate yes, but people there seem to be VERY unfriendly to outsiders. In the best case they tell visitors to finish their business and leave, sometimes male leave right away, and in the worst case attack. On Mechanus locals won't turn everyone away, but also will give no mercy to someone who breaks a law, even if it seems insignificant.

One does not have to be friendly to be good, nor welcoming. Arcadia is peopled with those who work toward good purposes but are often unwilling to stray from that goal for the sake of being more broadly good, which is why it's more toward the LN side than Celestia is.

As for Chaotic, Ysgard seems to be quite welcoming to those who are brave, and on Limbo all the person needs is to adapt, and has the chance to build his own paradise literally with his will. Limbo also has some friendly settlements, like a village of halflings.

Ysgard is also the plane where anyone can and will challenge you to single combat to prove your worth. Sure, you won't die, but the point of Ysgard is that you don't settle. You can't merely be brave and be accepted in Ysgard, you have to prove yourself. Life is not calm and there is no contentment. As for Limbo, yes, you can shape your own little bubble by imposing your will on it, but that has nothing to do with Good or Evil, and the plane is always ready to swallow you into the roaring churning chaos if your will falters. It is arguably one of the least friendly places, because each individual asserts their own will to create their bastion of safety, and trying to band together with others risks imperiling the lot of you when divisions arise and your bubbles no longer overlap cleanly.

All comes down to personal taste, really.

8) Gate towns on Outlands, specifically with gates to Evil planes. Considering how bad they are, why they have so large populations? Larger then cities with gates to nicer places, with few exceptions. Unlike petitioners, those people can choose where to live. Why they don't flee en-masse or why they settle there in the first place? I believe the majority CAN choose.

We would have to look at them individually.

• Bedlam is publicly accepting of residents of an evil sort, and the character of the place makes it unlikely to slide into its attached plane. It also attracts those who want to provide services for travelers coming or going from Pandemonium, which can be an attractive proposition as the bleak and horrid plane tends to come with lots of needs for travelers. Then of course there is the Bleak Cabal, which happens to particularly like the town.

• Curst is Carceri in miniature, a town of exiles and vengeful types who find it hard to establish themselves anywhere else. The tone of the place is that it makes for an effective base of operations from which to plot revenge, since it attracts all sorts of foul and malefic beings looking for someone to lash out at. It's not one of the bigger towns as a result

• Hopeless attracts the dispossessed and despondent, or rather collects them as they fall out of other societies. At least they know that nobody else around is living a life any happier than their own, which can be a certain kind of cold comfort.

• Plague-Mort is a pretty active trade town, as laws are minimal and opportunism abounds. People come with a purpose, which is the kind of thing an enterprising sort can capitalize on. It may be awful, but it's awful in a way that works for the locals.

• Ribcage is a tiefling-majority settlement, which on its own is unique, but it is also a town that is all about power in all its forms. Everyone works hard to accrue power in some kind or other, and the fact that it can be established in the town with consistency means that the town itself has value beyond its borders, kind of like an outsize bank of influence and secrets, not to mention actual money. Furthermore, Ribcage actively disincentivizes fiendish visitors, which makes it technically safer than other settlements of a dark bent. For these reasons, it is the most populous gate-town.

• Rigus is a place where those seeking discipline can belong, as long as they are willing to deal with the local interpretation of it. It is also surprisingly tolerant of outsiders, who are marked to show their unfamiliarity with the town's laws, and yet again a place with few fiends. If one has to conduct business on the dark side, Rigus is a place where you can get it done under the rigorous protection of local law enforcement, provided you leave as soon as you are done.

• Torch is the place for opportunists, all of whom think they can get the best of the rest. Less inclined to hard work than the people of Ribcage, the people of Torch still want to get ahead by any means necessary, and in Torch they get the best of both worlds, for whatever that's worth. It's still one of the smaller gate-towns to the Lower Planes.

The question might better be posed not as to why these towns are large, but why many of the Upper Planar gate-towns are small. Leaving aside the fact that many in the good-aligned towns want to go to their connected plane, as opposed to the evil-aligned towns where most of the denizens want to steer clear, we again should break down how and why this happens.

• Faunel is a town for people who don't really want a town, which is why it has so few formal residents.

• Fortitude is just not a pleasant place to be. It's not a hub for commerce, it's infested by the Harmonium, and it's not like the connected plane wants you in it any more than the town does unless you already belong there. Since there aren't even meaningful ulterior motives for setting up shop in the town, outsiders just generally don't.

• Glorium is a stopover for people who want to pick a fight to prove their mettle. They have no interest in becoming a hub of commerce, or really in having long-term visitors at all. To put it simply, they have little use for being an actual town, which is why there are so few people, and their pride prevents them from establishing fortifications or other structures that would require maintenance and staffing.

• Sylvania is actually a pretty nice place to be, but it's a lot - a nonstop party of noise and sensation, and it's hard to live that life all the time. People go in and out regularly, but the actual resident numbers reflect that most are either looking to go to Arborea properly, or just need moments of cooldown in their lives that the town will not offer them.

As for Tradegate, Ecstasy, and Excelsior, each one has a substantial population.

Up to me, this is a plane of fanatics. While technically, they fit into the DnD identification of Lawful-Lawful-Good, by our world standards locals are really nationalistic and cold-hearted.

Fanatics, no, xenophobes, yes. Arcadians aren't all crazy, but they definitely dislike outsiders who don't fit in.

As for Mechanus, it is not that it is friendlier than Arcadia, it's that by and large you matter less to it in all things. Arcadians will ask you to state your business and judge you for your answer, but, like... when modrons are marching, people die from being trampled to death. Inevitables don't care about the shadings of your actions. Formians will do with you as they please. On Arcadia, you are asked to stop being a square peg so that they can jam you into a round hole. On Mechanus, you will be dragged to the nearest square hole and mortared in.

[Bohandas]

Ysgard is much less nice. Yes, everywhere is adventure and challenge. But what if you don't like hotter summers and harsher winters than possible? What if you don't want to climb an impossibly high mountain just to visit your friend in the neighbouring village for a cup of tea? What if you don't want to walk uphill in both directions in the snow to ply your wares? Ysgard is fun for adventures, but not for normal people. Arcadia is the other way round.

Ysgard also has that free resurrection thing going on, which makes it a lot easier to be adventurous there, even if you're just some random civilian.

[Bohandas]

Now a new question:

1) Are there any pleasant places on Inner Planes (to Prime mortals)?

The City of Glass on the Plane of Water and the Djinn settlements on the Plane of Air

[Tzardok]

Ysgard also has that free resurrection thing going on, which makes it a lot easier to be adventurous there, even if you're just some random civilian.

Counterpoint: Being killed hurts.

I seriously forgot about that part, which makes the challenges of Ysgard more survivable, but certainly no less annoying. (Especially if there is a respawn point. )

[Bohandas]

Speaking of resurrection, does time spent dead count against a creature's lifespan?

Counterpoint: Being killed hurts.

Isn't Ysgard also overflowing with booze

[afroakuma]

Speaking of resurrection, does time spent dead count against a creature's lifespan?

Nope. letterslettersletters

[Bartmanhomer]

What was the relationship between Boccob and Wee Jas? Were they friends, enemies, or lovers?

[Tzardok]

Isn't Ysgard also overflowing with booze

Good point. I'll add "Drunkards everywhere" to my list of complaints about Ysgard.

What was the relationship between Boccob and Wee Jas? Were they friends, enemies, or lovers?

They are gods of magic in two different pantheons on the same world. Combine that with Boccob's infamous indifference, and the closest relationship you'll get is something like neighbours that work in the same job and don't see each other often.

[Bartmanhomer]

They are gods of magic in two different pantheons on the same world. Combine that with Boccob's infamous indifference, and the closest relationship you'll get is something like neighbours that work in the same job and don't see each other often.

Ok. Thank you.

[hamishspence]

While they were of different pantheons, enough time has passed that the pantheons have basically mixed:


https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Human

The pantheons of humanity are vast and varied. In the Flanaess, humans normally worship a mixture of gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin together with a smattering of Baklunish gods and a host of deities considered "common" because they are prevalent in most areas regardless of their history of ethnic settlement. As most human groups in the Flanaess are long-since mixed, so are their gods, and the same settlements will contain temples and shrines to a variety of deities regardless of their pantheon of origin.


Wee Jas's entry in Deities and Demigods says of Boccob "She respects him, but they do not have an alliance". Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.

[Bohandas]

While they were of different pantheons, enough time has passed that the pantheons have basically mixed:


https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Human

The pantheons of humanity are vast and varied. In the Flanaess, humans normally worship a mixture of gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin together with a smattering of Baklunish gods and a host of deities considered "common" because they are prevalent in most areas regardless of their history of ethnic settlement. As most human groups in the Flanaess are long-since mixed, so are their gods, and the same settlements will contain temples and shrines to a variety of deities regardless of their pantheon of origin.


Wee Jas's entry in Deities and Demigods says of Boccob "She respects him, but they do not have an alliance". Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.

Which brings up another question, how does the concept of "....gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin...." even make sense in a world where the gods are real and for the most part started out as gods (with the exception of Cuthbert, Vecna, Iuz, and the Company of Seven)

[afroakuma]

Which brings up another question, how does the concept of "....gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin...." even make sense in a world where the gods are real and for the most part started out as gods (with the exception of Cuthbert, Vecna, Iuz, and the Company of Seven)

Those peoples originally populated different lands and had limited contact with one another until the great migrations shoved them together. Until that time, they were the pantheons of associated peoples, cognate to the Olympian, Pharaonic, and Norse pantheons each coexisting on the same world without comingling.

Oerth isn't the only world where this has taken place, either - Toril is absolutely lousy with pantheons, and the Faerûnian pantheon is the cobbled-together bits and pieces of a shocking number of other faiths.

The Baklunish pantheon was characterized by impersonal deities, forces remote from the world. Istus, goddess of fate, is the greatest deity known from this faith, with Geshtai the river goddess, Mouqol the trade deity, Xan Yae the shadow goddess, and Zuoken the monastic god among the more well-known. Al'Akbar and Azor'alq are lesser deities who typify heroes of myth and legend raised to divinity.

The Flan pantheon are much more akin to mortal figures, in the sense of having more interpersonal relationships and personalities. Social deities such as Allitur, Berei, Myhriss and Zodal pair with great figures of nature such as Beory, the Earth Dragon, and Obad-hai.

The Oeridian pantheon contains families of deities and a variety of figures who represent aspects of nature rather than broad generalizations - the seasonal deities join deities of mining, stars, roads, agriculture... by far and away the Oeridian pantheon has proved most enduring, in no small part due to figures of morality and social order such as Heironeous, Hextor, Rao, Pholtus, and Zilchus.

The Suel pantheon is an interesting mix, without any greater deities to its name but forming a blend of distinctive nature deities (Fortubo, Jascar, Llerg, Xerbo etc.) and gods of individual pursuit, goals, and accomplishments (Kord, Wee Jas, Bralm, Syrul etc.)

There are also other human pantheons on Oerth - the Touv and Olman pantheons. These never mixed with the broader pantheon and are regional and limited.

[Tzardok]

While they were of different pantheons, enough time has passed that the pantheons have basically mixed:


https://ghwiki.greyparticle.com/index.php/Human

The pantheons of humanity are vast and varied. In the Flanaess, humans normally worship a mixture of gods of Flan, Oeridian, and Suel origin together with a smattering of Baklunish gods and a host of deities considered "common" because they are prevalent in most areas regardless of their history of ethnic settlement. As most human groups in the Flanaess are long-since mixed, so are their gods, and the same settlements will contain temples and shrines to a variety of deities regardless of their pantheon of origin.


Wee Jas's entry in Deities and Demigods says of Boccob "She respects him, but they do not have an alliance". Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.

Ah. I didn't know that; I've been assuming that treating them as part of the same pantheon was solely a 3.x "standard pantheon" thing.

[Thurbane]

Wee Jas's entry in Deities and Demigods says of Boccob "She respects him, but they do not have an alliance". Boccob's entry doesn't say anything about her.

Similar in the Living Greyhawk deities document.

Under Wee Jas it says "She respects Boccob, dislikes the beauty goddess Myhriss, and ignores most other deities.". Boccob's entry doesn't mention her at all.

[enderlord99]

Which Outer Plane (and layer, ideally) best fits these lyrics? I'm guessing Agathion, but I'm not sure. It's Minauros.

[hamishspence]

Those peoples originally populated different lands and had limited contact with one another until the great migrations shoved them together. Until that time, they were the pantheons of associated peoples, cognate to the Olympian, Pharaonic, and Norse pantheons each coexisting on the same world without comingling.

Oerth isn't the only world where this has taken place, either - Toril is absolutely lousy with pantheons, and the Faerûnian pantheon is the cobbled-together bits and pieces of a shocking number of other faiths.

Yup. The process is still ongoing - the "Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons" are beginning to lose deities to the greater Faerunian one. Hoar the Doombringer used to be Untheric, but is now Faerunian. Sharess used to be the Mulhorandi deity Bast, but is now Faerunian. And so forth.

[enderlord99]

Yup. The process is still ongoing - the "Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons" are beginning to lose deities to the greater Faerunian one. Hoar the Doombringer used to be Untheric, but is now Faerunian. Sharess used to be the Mulhorandi deity Bast, but is now Faerunian. And so forth.

I'd always assumed (for reasons I can't explicitly state here) that Bast was part of the Pharanoic pantheon, rather than the Mulhorandi one.

...actually...

How often are there multiple deities with the exact same name, if ever?

[Tzardok]

Yup. The process is still ongoing - the "Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons" are beginning to lose deities to the greater Faerunian one. Hoar the Doombringer used to be Untheric, but is now Faerunian. Sharess used to be the Mulhorandi deity Bast, but is now Faerunian. And so forth.

Well, Unther won't lose any more deities, on account of their pantheon being dead.

I'd always assumed (for reasons I can't explicitly state here) that Bast was part of the Pharanoic pantheon, rather than the Mulhorandi one.

...actually...

How often are there multiple deities with the exact same name, if ever?

The Mulhorandi pantheon is (or used to be) the Pharaonic pantheon.

The old Imaskari kidnapped whole peoples (which worshipped the Mesopotamian and the Pharaonic pantheon, respectively) from other worlds to serve as slaves and errected a barrier to keep their gods from following them. After some time those two pantheons circumvented the barrier by sending in avatars and giving them autonomy, and those avatars freed the slave races, founded the nations of Mulhorand (Pharaonian) and Unther (Mesopotamian) and ruled them as god-kings. That only ended when Ao dissolved the barrier at the end of the Time of Troubles, which allowed the avatars to return to the Outer Planes.

Sharess used to be Bast, and Hoar used to be Assuran, but the two of them are changed too much to be compatible with their originator, so they became new gods.

That, I think, also answers your question about deities sharing names. Either they are two deities that used to be one (I think Tyr and other Faerûnian gods that used to be interlopers have split off that way), or a deity claims to be another one, usually for reasons of subverting them (see also "Shar and every little thing she does").

[enderlord99]

The Mulhorandi pantheon is (or used to be) the Pharaonic pantheon.

The old Imaskarni kidnapped whole peoples (which worshipped the Mesopotamian and the Pharaonic pantheon, respectively) from other worlds to serve as slaves and errected a barrier to keep their gods from following them. After some time those two pantheons circumvented the barrier by sending in avatars and giving them autonomy, and those avatars freed the slave races, founded the nations of Mulhorand (Pharaonian) and Unther (Mesopotamian) and ruled them as god-kings. That only ended when Ao dissolved the barrier at the end of the Time of Troubles, which allowed the avatars to return to the Outer Planes.

Sharess used to be Bast, and Hoar used to be Assuran, but the two of them are changed too much to be compatible with their originator, so they became new gods.

That, I think, also answers your question about deities sharing names. Either they are two deities that used to be one (I think Tyr and other Faerûnian gods that used to be interlopers have split off that way), or a deity claims to be another one, usually for reasons of subverting them (see also "Shar and every little thing she does").

Oh, okay. That makes sense.

[hamishspence]

Tiamat and Bahamat might also count as Untheric pantheon as well as Dragon pantheon - or at least, "having Untheric aliases". Bahamut's Untheric alias was Marduk, but after being killed and then coming back to life as a "celestial paragon" rather than a full demigod or higher, his "Marduk" identity was regarded as dead and no longer worshipped.

[Edreyn]

As always, thanks everyone for answers. Will write if I think of something interesting to discuss.

[Efrate]

Tiamat in Faerun is also the Red Knight. I believe thats to imaskari/mulhorandi.

[Tzardok]

Tiamat in Faerun is also the Red Knight. I believe thats to imaskari/mulhorandi.

Uh, what?

The Red Knight is a mortal that ascended after the Time of Troubles to demigodhood through Tempus' favor. She didn't even live close to Mulhorand or Unther. She's got nothing to do with Tiamat.

[Cicciograna]

I think they're referring to Tchazzar. Who was Chessentan, not Mulhorandi/Imaskari.

[hamishspence]

Plus he's not a mythological deity - he's a dragon who managed to get worshipped, got eaten by Tiamat, and then resurrected by her and sent back to Faerun.