afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII

[Bohandas]

EDIT:
As an aside, I wonder whether it is intentional that the Queen, as described in the module, looks exactly like Ursula the Sea Witch from Disney's The Little Mermaid which came out seven years earlier (lower body of a cephalopod, upper body of a fat lady, and blue skin)

On a similar note. I just realized that Sibriex demons may be patterned on the giant hologram head from The Wizard of Oz. They're huge floating disembodied heads thay traffick in organs.

[Tzardok]

Something I've been meaning to ask about is Apep. Deities and Demigods describes him as a neutral evil demigod, while Fiendish Codex 1 and the Planescape sources mention him as a demonic... thing that is imprisoned in the Darkwells.

How accurate are those two things? Is Apep a god or not? If not, what is he? Could he escape the Wells if he ascended to godhood? And, no matter if he is a deity or not, can he grant spells from the Wells? Is the neutral evil alignment accurate? Questions over questions...

[Dalmosh]

Hello, I've been interested by the mention in FC1 of a Demon Lord called Alrunes the Soothing Spirit, whose portfolio is "sisterhood and protection".

Eric Mona and James Jacobs subsequently stated that this was just an odd throw-away reference to give future authors something a bit different to work with in the Abyss.

If you were to expand on Alrunes (and her cult), while both keeping these themes, and retaining an alignment and philosophy suitable for an exemplar of CE, what direction would you go in?

Most of the ideas I have end up feeling a bit too NE, though I guess something involving Unholy Scions might fit.

[Clistenes]

I know you can't be a member of two factions, or of two sects, or of a faction and a sect, but, can you be a member of both a Sect or Faction and of the Planewalker's Guild?

I mean, the Planewalker's Guild isn't an ideology focused group, but a very practical organization, focused on exploring the Planes and gathering information... I can see a member of the Fraternity of Order joining them for the sake of learning about the workings of the Planes, or of a Sensate joining for the sake of experiencing new stuff, or a member of the Mind's Eye for the sake of finding new challenges...

And then you have some of the less demanding, less rigid organizations like the Guardians or the Free League... The Free League don't even see themselves as a Faction, why wouldn't they join the Guild? And I doubt the Guardians would have any objection to the Guild's activities...

[Bohandas]

Hello, I've been interested by the mention in FC1 of a Demon Lord called Alrunes the Soothing Spirit, whose portfolio is "sisterhood and protection".

Eric Mona and James Jacobs subsequently stated that this was just an odd throw-away reference to give future authors something a bit different to work with in the Abyss.

If you were to expand on Alrunes (and her cult), while both keeping these themes, and retaining an alignment and philosophy suitable for an exemplar of CE, what direction would you go in?

I can think of three ways to go with this:

One way is for her to be focused on finger-pointing and revenge, where "protection" means becoming just as bad as whoever hurt you and taking potshots at anyone you don;t trust

Two is for her to be running an all-female mafia, with "protection" being a euphemism for extortion

The third possibility is that the cult is an exaggerated dysfunctional caricature of the sorority system in colleges whose goal is to transform intellectuals into drunks

[Clistenes]

D&D Druids have the Reincarnate spell because of real world stuff we can't speak about, but, do D&D Druids believe in reincarnation, besides having the spell? And, do souls reincarnate, besides the worshipers of the Hindu pantheon?

[Tzardok]

D&D Druids have the Reincarnate spell because of real world stuff we can't speak about, but, do D&D Druids believe in reincarnation, besides having the spell? And, do souls reincarnate, besides the worshipers of the Hindu pantheon?

Reincarnation, besides the forced one through the spell, seems to only happen where pantheons that have reincarnation as part of their worldview hold sway. I don't know which ones besides the Vedic pantheon do, but I remember Afro once saying something about pantheons dealing in reincarnation having a tendency to stagnate, with the Vedic one managing to mitigate that consequence somewhat.

[Bohandas]

D&D Druids have the Reincarnate spell because of real world stuff we can't speak about, but, do D&D Druids believe in reincarnation, besides having the spell? And, do souls reincarnate, besides the worshipers of the Hindu pantheon?

IIRC in some editions reincarnation is forced in the demiplane of dread because souls can't leave, but I don;t know if this applies in the editions we're considering here

[Clistenes]

Reincarnation, besides the forced one through the spell, seems to only happen where pantheons that have reincarnation as part of their worldview hold sway. I don't know which ones besides the Vedic pantheon do, but I remember Afro once saying something about pantheons dealing in reincarnation having a tendency to stagnate, with the Vedic one managing to mitigate that consequence somewhat.

That's kinda disappointing... It makes the Druids look even more some kind of Nature Wizards or specialized Clerics of Nature Deities rather than a viable alternative belief system...

[Tzardok]

That's kinda disappointing... It makes the Druids look even more some kind of Nature Wizards or specialized Clerics of Nature Deities rather than a viable alternative belief system...

*shrug* Nothing says that no worlds have Druids with their own unique system of beliefs, but such things aren't inherent to the class, just as there are no dogmas or whatever that every single cleric shares.

Afro was once asked how a cleric worshipping nature and a druid worshipping nature differ, and the answer was that clerics draw their power from the Outer Planes, while druids draw it from the Inner Planes. The difference between clerics and druids is what they do, not what they believe.

[Tzardok]

I just read something that made me think of a question: If an arcane spellcaster somehow gets access to the Miracle spell, for example because they are a dragon and naturally can learn spells from the cleric list, who grants the miracle?

[Thurbane]

I just read something that made me think of a question: If an arcane spellcaster somehow gets access to the Miracle spell, for example because they are a dragon and naturally can learn spells from the cleric list, who grants the miracle?

I would assume it works the same as a Cleric who has no deity and worships ideals: the cosmos/abstract concepts grants the Miracle.

Otherwise, if the Wizard is quite devout, then possibly his deity.

[IslandPerseus]

What exactly was the Time of Troubles? How did it start, how did it end, and how did it affect the divine landscape of the Outer Planes?

[Batcathat]

What exactly was the Time of Troubles? How did it start, how did it end, and how did it affect the divine landscape of the Outer Planes?

All I know is that Bhaal spent it having sex with pretty much everything.

[Tzardok]

What exactly was the Time of Troubles? How did it start, how did it end, and how did it affect the divine landscape of the Outer Planes?

The gods Bane and Myrkul stole the Tablets of Fate, on which the duties and privileges of all Torilian gods were written. They hoped to gain more power in the resulting confusion. Instead Ao, the overgod of Toril who already had been fed up with the deities neglecting their duties and worshippers in their powermongering, cast out all deities in mortal form to Faerûn until the tablets were brought back (with the exception of Helm, who was ordered to watch the ways back into the divine realms). This caused increasing breakdown of natural and magical laws and so on. It took around a year until the Tablets were brought back. When that happend, Ao destroyed the Tablets and decreed that his fiat, which allowed the gods to survive on lipservice, was ended. Now gods in Toril need true belief to survive, just like on any other world.

The Outer Planes themselves weren't affected, but a lot of deities died in the Time of Troubles, and some people ascended to divinity. Deities dying in the Time of Troubles include Bhaal (who tried and failed to resurrect himself through his children), Myrkul (who tried to cheat death by transfering his mind into the Horncrown), Bane (who got resurected a decade later), Moander, Zandilar the Dancer, Torm (who was resurrected by Ao himself when the Time was over, as he died the way he always preached it: in faithful fulfilment of his duty), Mystra, Ibrandul, Tiamat (she got better), Zinzerana, Gilgeam and Rannam (with those two the Untheric pantheon died). Leira was killed shortly afterwards, but she can be counted.

Mortals ascending to divinity as the result of the Time of Troubles include: Finder Wyvernspur, Midnight (who replaced Mystra and took her name), the Red Knight and Cyric. Kelemvor didn't ascend during the Time, but his ascension happened as a direct consequence of the events.

Other divine events worthy of mention: when Ao ended the Time, he also dissolved the barrier that kept the avatars of the Mulhorand and the Untheric gods from returning to the Outer Planes, allowing them to finally leave (not that it mattered for the Untheric ones). Also, Sharess and Hoar as ex-members of those pantheons could through that establish themselves for the first time on the Planes.
Waukeen tried to leave Faerûn by paying the demon prince Graz'zt to smuggle her back, but was backstabed and taken prisoner until she was freed years later.

I think that was everything, but so many things happend that I likely forgot something.

[Clistenes]

All I know is that Bhaal spent it having sex with pretty much everything.

I think he did that before the Time of Troubles, in preparation for it.

[Batcathat]

I think he did that before the Time of Troubles, in preparation for it.

Yeah, probably. It was mostly a joke about how most of my knowledge about the Time of Troubles comes from the Baldur's Gate series, where more and more Bhaalspawn shows up (including a... I want to say halfgod gopher). The actual impregnation taking place earlier does explain how Bhaal's dragon kid not only grew to full size but also had a full sized kid of his own, I suppose.

[Tzardok]

Are genies of different subraces able to reproduce with each other? And if yes, what will the child be? Just 50/50, like with elf subraces? The weaker genie with the half-elemental template of the element of the stronger?

[Clistenes]

Yeah, probably. It was mostly a joke about how most of my knowledge about the Time of Troubles comes from the Baldur's Gate series, where more and more Bhaalspawn shows up (including a... I want to say halfgod gopher). The actual impregnation taking place earlier does explain how Bhaal's dragon kid not only grew to full size but also had a full sized kid of his own, I suppose.

Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane all predicted their deaths and had contingency plans to resurrect themselves.

Bhaal had the Bhaalspawn thing you speak about...

Myrkul put a piece of his essence in the Crown of Horns, so he would use it to possess somebody.

Bane prepare not one, but two gambits: In first place, he put pieces of his essence and power in a Banelich High Priest and in the artifact Hand of Bane, and commanded them to perform a ritual on his petrified body in the Astral Plane in order to bring him back. The second plan was to put a piece of his essence in his half-demon son Iyachtu Xvim, and let him grow in power, devouring him from the inside, replacing him and claiming his divinity back.

[Yanagi]

(including a... I want to say halfgod gopher).

hahaha

Yeah, there's a bit where you're mugged by a whole cadre of bottom-seed Bhaalspawn. Critters and wee little faerie things. Hadn't thought about it in years.

[aj77]

Are genies of different subraces able to reproduce with each other? And if yes, what will the child be?

If I had to guess, I'd say that two genies of non-opposed elements would produce a para-elemental genie child (since Afro was nice enough to stat out magma, slime, and smoke genies a while ago), while two genies of opposed elements would produce a Janni.

[Tzardok]

If I had to guess, I'd say that two genies of non-opposed elements would produce a para-elemental genie child (since Afro was nice enough to stat out magma, slime, and smoke genies a while ago), while two genies of opposed elements would produce a Janni.

Well, I already excluded that idea. The Dukhani's personality and traits are determined by whatever demonic thing happened to them during the War of Law and Chaos. A half-Jinni, half-Ifrit wouldn't have this "taint" and so wouldn't be a Dukhan. The same goes for the other ones. An Erimesh is Lawful Good. How does this happen as the child of an Ifrit and a Dao? How would the Sureshi keep to their superiority complex, if any child of a Marid and a Dao were a Suresh?

It also doesn't solve the question of what happens when a paraelemental genie, a Janni or a Khayal sires children with another genie.

[Thurbane]

If I had to guess, I'd say that two genies of non-opposed elements would produce a para-elemental genie child (since Afro was nice enough to stat out magma, slime, and smoke genies a while ago), while two genies of opposed elements would produce a Janni.

Ooh, that sounds very interesting - would you have a link?

[Tzardok]

Ooh, that sounds very interesting - would you have a link?

Uhm, Thurbane... it was in the Planar Questions Thread VII. As an answer to your question. Here.

[Thurbane]

Uhm, Thurbane... it was in the Planar Questions Thread VII. As an answer to your question. Here.

My memory isn't everything it used to be

[crystal_entity]

This might have already come up but I don't remember it. The language "Common" - is this the same language across all the planes and Prime worlds? So someone who learned Common in Baldur's Gate on Faerûn would be able to be understood by someone in Sigil, or in Palanthas on Krynn, etc? Or are there separate "Common" languages for Krynn, Faerûn, Sigil, Arboria, Carceri, etc?

I realise to a certain extent this is game convenience, but I wondered whether there was anything in canon which specifically addressed this?

[redking]

This might have already come up but I don't remember it. The language "Common" - is this the same language across all the planes and Prime worlds? So someone who learned Common in Baldur's Gate on Faerûn would be able to be understood by someone in Sigil, or in Palanthas on Krynn, etc? Or are there separate "Common" languages for Krynn, Faerûn, Sigil, Arboria, Carceri, etc?

I realise to a certain extent this is game convenience, but I wondered whether there was anything in canon which specifically addressed this?

The Forgotten Realms setting clearly states the origins of the common language, which is derived from a language in Faerun. I can't speak for other settings, but it stands to reason that the various prime worlds have different common languages. There may be a common language of the planes, however.

[enderlord99]

The closest you're likely to get is "Cant"

[Bohandas]

Tiamat (she got better)

I'm led by things like this to believe that "dying" just boots a god's influence out of the crystal sphere where they "died". Tiamat has actually been "killed" a couple times and it doesn't seem to affect her except in the places where she was "killed" but in both cases it at least temporarily booted her out of the sphere (the other time was on Krynn where IIRC she still isn't back). Therefore only single sphere deities like Bhaal would have been in true danger during the Time of Troubles.

Furthermore, the fact that she came back to Realmspace leads me to believe that it may work in what is essentially a looser version of how other outsiders "die", where they're merely banished for a period of time.

ANYWAY, This all also raises the question of what happens if you trap a multi-sphere deity in a Cage of Zagyg; does it bottle up the whole deity, or just the deity's influence on that sphere?

EDIT:

Or are there separate "Common" languages for Krynn, Faerûn, Sigil, Arboria, Carceri, etc?

I don't know about the Material Plane or the Outlands, however there's three main languages on the aligned outer planes: Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, which are spoken in the planes within the sphere of influence of Elysium, Hell, or the Abyss, respectively.

[Tzardok]

I'm led by things like this to believe that "dying" just boots a god's influence out of the crystal sphere where they "died". Tiamat has actually been "killed" a couple times and it doesn't seem to affect her except in the places where she was "killed" but in both cases it at least temporarily booted her out of the sphere (the other time was on Krynn where IIRC she still isn't back). Therefore only single sphere deities like Bhaal would have been in true danger during the Time of Troubles.

Furthermore, the fact that she came back to Realmspace leads me to believe that it may work in what is essentially a looser version of how other outsiders "die", where they're merely banished for a period of time.

Tiamat didn't just one day got back with no one questioning it; her recovery is explained and happened before the Time of Trouble's end. When Gilgeam killed her, her essence was scattered over three powerfull dragon. When one of those (Tchazzar) ate the others in the hopes of replacing her, she was reunited and burst out of him. Then she killed Gilgeam.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Tiamat was never on Krynn, as long as you accept that Tiamat and Takhisis are different people.

Furthermore, I think Afro once mentioned that Ao in fact pulled multisphere deities completely in during the Time, and if they died there they would be dead, full stop. But I would need to search through the whole Planar Questions thread to see wether I remember right.
Anyway, even if not, it is in Ao's power to tell a multisphere deity that died in Faerûn: "Get out. You are dead in here, so you have no power here."

I don't know about the Material Plane or the Outlands, however there's three main languages on the aligned outer planes: Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal, which are spoken in the planes within the sphere of influence of Elysium, Hell, or the Abyss, respectively.

The 3e adaption of Planescape holds a language called "Planar Common", which seemingly replaces Common for all races that have it in their description, but I don't know what relation it has to other "Commons". It also has a language called "Fiendish", the failed attempt of a common language for the fiends. (It also has seperate languages for the Archons, the Eladrin and the Guardinals, but just like Fiendish they aren't used a lot, having mostly fused into Celestial.)