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2021-06-23, 08:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2021-06-23, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Dungeon Mag is pretty borderline as being D&D canon. Adventures written largely by non-staff contributors, and published (under license) by a third party publisher.
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Possibly because the creation of undead touches on the manipulation and handling of souls, which is definitely more the realm of the divine than arcane? A purely arcane approach to making undead would likely end up creating things more similar to animated objects and golems than Undead - stuff that is given an animating power or bound to an elemental spirit, but lacks the sort of inherent not-quite-life nature that makes Undead.. uh, Undead.
The association of Positive Energy = Good = Good heroes turn or destroy undead while Negative Energy = Evil = the Evil champions of Evil Gods control undead servitors probably has more to do with old D&D tropes than any consideration of how the planes work.
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2021-06-24, 05:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Well, the issue with that is that animals don't appear to have souls, but making undead animals is no more difficult than making undead humanoids. Also... if undead are soulstuff rather than beings of negative energy, why are they healed by negative energy when outsiders aren't?
Well yeah, I get that.
Just trying to figure out why that might be the case in universe.
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2021-06-24, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Animals have souls; that has been established often enough in this thread. They canonically go to the Beastlands after death.
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2021-06-25, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I wouldn't call it a subsidy, really; more of an insight into the different priorities in the structure of arcane magic. The practice of arcane magic was developed by different peoples with different priorities, but by and large the trend was not toward facilitating necromancy. Animate dead is by no means the only necromancy spell that clerics can do earlier than sorcerers and wizards - see contagion and bestow curse for example. It's also a pretty trivial way to create undead, in the grand scheme of things - as a spell, it takes a corpse and channels negative energy into it to create an animus that inhabits the dead body and moves it. Channelling positive and negative energy is more in the province of clerics because the antecedents of modern arcane magical practice put less of a premium on tapping the energy planes, which is harder to do efficiently due to arcane magic tapping into verbal and material components to assist in the harnessing, shaping, and direction of power (there are no languages for these planes, and neither is material). Conversely, deities have hard connections to life and death thanks to the soul cycle - it is much easier for a divine source to move positive and negative energy here and there.
When looking at more potent methods, those which create intelligent undead, there is no difference between divine and arcane - you're not merely channelling energy at that point. In the case of create undead, it's actually a fusion of arcane and divine elements adapted by both - note the presence of the onyx gems as material components as well as ceremonial components such as grave dirt and brackish water.
For the most part, if Dungeon published it as a D&D adventure, it's considered part of canon for this thread. That said, of course, only elements within that adventure itself would be canonical; anything not represented in the adventure from the same source material would be irrelevant.
Yes they do. Oozes, microorganisms, and nonsentient plants don't. Also vermin.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-06-25, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Note: Dread Necromancer have Rebuke Undead too - despite being arcane caster
Moreover: Death Master gets Animate Dead as 2nd-level spell: it's lower than for most divine casters (Divine Crusader may get it on the same class level, but it's PrC with BAB +7 requirement...)
While it's true for Animals, Mindless creatures are less clear cut
Death Giants and Kir-lanan are have no souls explicitly
Yes. That's why they include "If you failed" section - because you're always win...
Hey, stop right there!..
You said "a typical dnd character", then "high level casters".
A "typical dnd character" isn't high level at all (and absolutely not necessary a caster)
While high-level caster may be, in theory, impervious to anything but DM fiat, low-level casters are, for example, dying being eaten by rats...
I don't see what E6 (or even, for that matter, E10) caster can do versus Cthulhu
I severely doubt it: Carrack - with strong wind - do on average 147 ramming damage
Even 20th-level Fighter may be one-shot by it (at least, presuming no Improved Toughness, Diehard, or racial Con bonus), and would need to make a save versus Massive Damage regardless
Depending on which Sanity rules we using, Mind Blank may not work
Also, we already have example of iconic characters fighting the literal Cthulhu:
Spoiler: they were losing badly, until Mialee hit him with Imprisonment...
IIRR, the Savage Tide adventure path at some point allow you to "play" as one of powerful beings you're allied with - just to get the taste of how powerful they really are
I can't find this text right now, but your allies there are: Charon, Gwynharwyf, Iggwilv, Malcanthet, and even Orcus!.. (A heck of a party!)
Question: isn't it standard for adventures to villain of much higher level than the party?
In some cases, level difference is up to 12 levels (The Lich Queen's Beloved)
Or, heck, remember what Tarquin did during the confrontation! (And he's a Fighter - for crying out loud!)
There it is:
Originally Posted by Dungeon #135
IMHO, it's excessive, but if you insisting - there we go!..
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2021-06-25, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
What in that says anything about the multiverse ending? It doesn't even suggest that the one Material Plane world ends, as it explicitly sets up a post-failure adventure to undo it, calls the Cult 'one of the most powerful religions in the world' rather than the only power remaining, talks about vast regions being wiped out (which suggests other regions are not, etc.)
World-upending consequences that will at best leave devastation in their wake, yes; end of the multiverse, categorically no. As afro said in your quote: lots of unpleasantness for the world on which it is unleashed.Last edited by Lapak; 2021-06-25 at 11:44 AM.
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2021-06-25, 11:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
That... doesn't describe what happens to the Multiverse merely "the world."
That is to say, one(1) planet within the Prime Material Plane, or AT MOST one(1) Crystal Sphere.
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2021-06-25, 11:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by truemane; 2021-06-25 at 01:22 PM.
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2021-06-25, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Note: powerful deities are able to reach into another spheres: like Lolth and Gruumsh are present on multiple worlds
Once Kyuss is "one of the most powerful religions in the world" - what would prevent it from crawling into other spheres?
It's untrue: I'm accepting well-proved alternate view points
So far, I got just a metric ton of opinions ("My thread - my canon!") and very very little of actual proofsLast edited by truemane; 2021-06-25 at 01:23 PM. Reason: Scrub the quote
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2021-06-25, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Correct.
Once Kyuss is "one of the most powerful religions in the world" - what would prevent it from crawling into other spheres?
It would not, however, reach every sphere simply because there are (from a Wattsonian perspective) literally infinite of them. Someone else can find the source on that (it's definitely in a Spelljammer product) because I won't bother right now.
Anyway, even if it somehow conquered all spheres in their entirety... the Prime is not the Multiverse. Nowhere in your quoteblock was there any mention of the Elemental Planes, or the Positive- and Negative-energy Planes, or the Para-Elemental Planes, or the Outer Planes, or the Astral Plane, or the Ethereal Plane, or the Plane of Shadow, or the Plane of Mirrors, or anywhere but "The World."
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2021-06-25, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
That image comes from a product which was not released under the D&D brand. d20 Call of Cthulhu is a different game with an appendix regarding compatibility with material from D&D. As I have said previously, Lovecraftian canon is not part of D&D or relevant to this thread. If you dispute that, you are more than welcome to begin a separate thread on which this topic would be germane.
There it is:
It would need its representatives to get from Point A to Point B, and in sufficient numbers/with sufficient power to build his faith on those worlds. He can't just shove a priest through a gate and boom, instant access. If Kyuss annexed, say, Oerth, and then set his sights on Toril, he'd have to petition Ao for entry. If the world of Oerth was as destroyed as you infer from the above, Ao wouldn't let him in.
So far, I got just a metric ton of opinions ("My thread - my canon!")Last edited by afroakuma; 2021-06-25 at 01:15 PM.
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2021-06-25, 04:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
I finally have some new questions.
1) Again, about the Carceri we discussed so much. How the generic approach of "crabs in a bucket" works with deities who live there? I mean actually trapped there, like Malar, and not living willingly like Vhaeraun.
All deities have no choice but to want to be worshipped, and hence be dependent on mortals. Also, Malar does seem to care about his petitioners in afterlife, as much as CE deity can - they become predators and not prey. In comparison, Lloth tortures all her unlucky servants. So, how is Carceri ideology works with deities like Malar?
2) And the good plane of Elysium. I read that it has a feature similar to one of Grey Waste: if someone stays there too long, he no longer wants to leave, and at some point becomes a petitioner.
First question is more subjective and phylosophical. Why someone won't want this?! Don't ALL who believe in happy afterlife want to go there while still alive?
Other questions are actually about rules.
Remember when I asked if an evil person can evade going to Lower Planes by magic means? So, what if evil guy goes to Elysium and stays until merging? The locals are merciful, I don't believe they will attack or banish someone who is evil, but of small status, not a lich or tyrant, but let's say one of their followers.
What of those who made a pact with Baatezu? Can they avoid their fate by going to Elysium and staying long enough to become petitioners? Again, I believe locals could agree to shelter them, those striking pacts with Baatezu are obviosly idiots, but maybe not evil beyond redemption. Locals might even be happy that someone truly bad loses a grip of someone's soul. And Baatezu won't be able to "sue" the very Plane itself!
3) Many of Baator layers have large cities. How would a mortal find them - beautiful, though somewhat scary or completely disgusting? I mean only visual, smell etc, in case when a mortal is safe from any harm, like if he is watching those cities with sensory stone.Last edited by Edreyn; 2021-06-26 at 08:58 AM.
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2021-06-25, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Going to Elysium most definitely won't save you from a Pact Certain, no matter how long you (try to) stay there.
The only possibilities after death for someone who has agreed to one of those are "Soul goes to Baator" and "Soul is destroyed before it can go to Baator." The former is vastly more likely.Last edited by enderlord99; 2021-06-25 at 05:03 PM.
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2021-06-25, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
But it seems that those "trapped" in Elysium become petitioners without actually dying. Though I don't know how it's different by Planescape rules.
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2021-06-25, 05:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
That raises a question for me: is there anywhere that prevents souls from going to their destination plane? The mists of Ravenloft, or anything similar?
If yes, what happens to a departed soul if it can't move on to it's afterlife? Does it become an undead?My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-06-25, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
There are a few places. Nothing that goes into the Demiplane of Imprisonment gets out. Roughly 99% of the souls of people dying on Athas get stuck in the Grey on their way to the Outer Planes and erode to nothing over the following centuries. Some speculate that the Demiplane of Dread recycles souls for new inhabitants instead of letting them out. Also, I would assume that finding your way to your proper afterlife will be... difficult if you die in the Far Realms.
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2021-06-25, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
This is made explicit and a plot point in 5e's Curse of Strahd module. Many people are born without souls; the rest are born with recycled souls or come from outside; and all the other souls are locked into the mists. Not sure how canon that is in this thread, but it's supporting evidence.
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2021-06-25, 10:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Stoked you're back Afro, and hope you're feeling a bit better.
1. Assuming a Wightpocalypse able to produce templated Wight animals (e.g. using the alternative template in Dragon 300, but for whatever reason ignoring the fluff that non-humanoid Wights are very rare)...
To what extent would Wight animals continue to differentiate themselves behaviourally and ecologically from other Wight animals of different kinds? Would this horde be fairly uniform in how it acts (aside from different intelligence from 0-2)? Or would these undead tend to emulate their original natural behaviours and habits aside from an urge to drain the energy of living things?
Would you see things like territoriality, kinship and habitat selectivity? Would a hive of Wight ants keep working together?
Would the answer be different for an event that instead produced free-roaming animal Zombies?
2. If one was a Githzerai living in one of the big population centres like ShraÂ’ktÂ’lor or Zerth'Ad'lun, as a low-level bog standard Commoner or Expert, what would life be like? What sorts of things do generic urban Githzerai get up to and how would this be different from what you'd see in a human city?
3. If you feel like speculating, and wanted to expand on the throwaway referenced Demon Lord Alrunes the Soothing Spirit (Protection/Sisterhood portfolio) which direction would you go in?
Anything I come up with ends up feeling a bit too LE or NE for a Demon Lord.
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2021-06-26, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Most of them are chained there by their own spite. The power of Carceri is the power to get you digging your own grave.
All deities have no choice but to want to be worshipped, and hence be dependent on mortals. Also, Malar does seem to care about his petitioners in afterlife, as much as CE deity can - they become predators and not prey. In comparison, Lloth tortures all her unlucky servants. So, how is Carceri ideology works with deities like Malar?
2) And the good plane of Elysium. I read that it has a feature similar to one of Grey Waste: if someone stays there too long, he no longer wants to leave, and at some point becomes a petitioner.
First question is more subjective and phylosophical. Why someone won't want this?! Don't ALL who believe in happy afterlife want to go there while still alive?
Some people would choose that. Some people choose heroin, etc. etc. but the life I've described is absent any kind of fulfillment. It's bliss without purpose. What are you happy about? Nothing, really, you just are. What can you do with that happiness? Nothing, really. Anyone else nearby doesn't need you to share yours, they've got their own. It's toxic, happiness without purpose.
Remember when I asked if an evil person can evade going to Lower Planes by magic means? So, what if evil guy goes to Elysium and stays until merging? The locals are merciful, I don't believe they will attack or banish someone who is evil, but of small status, not a lich or tyrant, but let's say one of their followers.
Most importantly, the locals know that, and the guardinals make efforts to stop people from getting entrapped. They don't want it to happen even to good-aligned beings. An evil-aligned being on the plane would be frogmarched out at best. Guardinals are empowered to make hard choices when needed.
It is important to remember that the entrapping power of Elysium is a bad thing. It's an unintended consequence of the plane being what it is, and every bit as awful as being poisoned to death with morphine, except it also erases your afterlife by turning you into a lawn ornament. Ever seen a debate about the real morality of sanctify the wicked? Imagine if it also killed you and denied you getting to join with a deity or progress as an outsider in service to anything. Souls that become petitioners due to entrapment aren't those who have done exceptional good, they are those who have experienced exceptional good and had their identities smooshed into asphalt by it. They become pavement.
I deeply hate spoiling anything about this show because it's so good, but it really is the best argument for the case.
Spoiler: Spoilers for a TV comedySpoiler: About the afterlifeSpoiler: It's The Good Place, you should really just go watch it all...
What of those who made a pact with Baatezu? Can they avoid their fate by going to Elysium and staying long enough to become petitioners?
3) Many of Baator layers have large cities. How would a mortal find them - beautiful, though somewhat scary or completely disgusting? I mean only visual, smell etc, in case when a mortal is safe from any harm, like if he is watching those cities with sensory stone.
We believe the Demiplane of Dread keeps hold of souls that have entered, except at the discretion of the Dark Powers. The Gray of Athas certainly does; it's a metaphysical trap for souls of the deceased, which might escape back to Athas as undead, or slowly degrade and decay in the endless nothing of the Gray. The Demiplane of Imprisonment lets nothing out - get caught, and you're going nowhere, ever. Some other strange planar sites have demonstrated this quality as well - the Boundless, for example. The Far Realm, being a part of no cosmology, cares nothing for the rules of this one.
A soul somehow trapped in none of these places or otherwise restricted from heading off to its assigned rest is likely to result in an incorporeal undead of some stripe or other, yes.
Why thank you!
To what extent would Wight animals continue to differentiate themselves behaviourally and ecologically from other Wight animals of different kinds? Would this horde be fairly uniform in how it acts (aside from different intelligence from 0-2)? Or would these undead tend to emulate their original natural behaviours and habits aside from an urge to drain the energy of living things?
Would you see things like territoriality, kinship and habitat selectivity? Would a hive of Wight ants keep working together?
Would the answer be different for an event that instead produced free-roaming animal Zombies?
Zombies, unlike wights, have no motivation. Unless provided specific instruction by the magic that created them, or some other magic to steer them, zombie animals wouldn't pick up their old habits from life; unless prompted to attack something, they would most likely just stand still and wait, unless ordered to wander or patrol. Remember that a zombie isn't even a shadow of what it was in life, just the flesh and bones of something that was once alive. A wight knows what it once was and does not care.
2. If one was a Githzerai living in one of the big population centres like ShraÂ’ktÂ’lor or Zerth'Ad'lun, as a low-level bog standard Commoner or Expert, what would life be like? What sorts of things do generic urban Githzerai get up to and how would this be different from what you'd see in a human city?
3. If you feel like speculating, and wanted to expand on the throwaway referenced Demon Lord Alrunes the Soothing Spirit (Protection/Sisterhood portfolio) which direction would you go in?
Anything I come up with ends up feeling a bit too LE or NE for a Demon Lord.
Ultimately, her goals are to gather women who have been exiled from society either through the wickedness of others or in the wake of her "gifts" running their course, at which time they have no one else to turn to. Alrunes offers many avenues to power in her service, from transformation into monsters of feminine aspect to the secrets of black magic. As the Dark Sisterhood grows, Alrunes schemes to use its power to make a bid for Princedom and a layer of her very own, a goal she would pursue though it would extinguish every one of her followers. The distrust, frustration, and hopelessness she sows among those who have sought her aid and paid the price for it results in the Dark Sisterhood being a poisonous and backstabbing group, consumed by wrath and despair, whose only rule is that the coven protects its own from outsiders - but not from one another, certainly. Alrunes distrusts succubi and has a stealthy rivalry with Graz'zt, another patron of witches whose methodology is quite different and whose chosen victims are often young and virginal, as opposed to Alrunes who frequently seeks out mothers and wives.
Pacts with Alrunes are marked by tiny dolls kept in the home; these eerie tokens often give the impression of spying on members of the family, and visitors may swear the dolls have moved on their own, looking at them, or emitting sinister whispers. Supplicants of Alrunes take great care not to let these dolls be destroyed and know better than to cast them out, despite the curses that may accompany their presence - removing or destroying a doll also withdraws the protection of Alrunes, and she will gleefully dispatch the Dark Sisterhood to collect her price in blood when she is scorned in this way. Those few tomes that record the name of Alrunes are unanimous in their warnings that the demoness has but one goal - to destroy all that a desperate woman holds dear, in order to leave her nowhere else to turn.
Alrunes has dealings with the Unseelie Court and counts chaotic evil nymphs and dryads among her followers, as well fiendish lamiae, harpies, medusae, and hags.Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-06-26, 10:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Is Ilxendren actually the creator deity of the ixitxachitl, and if so why is he only worshipped by the ixzan?
How does he get along with Demogorgon, considering Demogorgon poaches the worship of half his race?
How do the Ilxendren worshipers get along with their Demogorgon worshiping kin?
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2021-06-26, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2021-06-26, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
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2021-06-26, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
He is not. He's not even the creator deity of the ixzan, as far as we know; Ilxendren arose during a time of profound religious schism and warfare amongst the ixzan. He's definitely bound to them as a patron racial deity, but unless he somehow survived an untold amount of time with a negligible worshipper base before reemerging with full power in a time when followers of Dagon, Demogorgon, and Panzuriel were locked in a century-long deadly conflict and actively purging heretics, there's no fathomable way he could be their creator. Now, the faithful of Ilxendren believe him to be, but the evidence for that is profoundly shaky.
How does he get along with Demogorgon, considering Demogorgon poaches the worship of half his race?
How do the Ilxendren worshipers get along with their Demogorgon worshiping kin?Need a place to hang? Like Discord? Don't mind dealing with a capricious demon lord? Then you're welcome to join our LGBTQ+ friendly, often silly, very geeky server to discuss food, music, video games, tabletop, and much more.
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2021-06-26, 12:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
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2021-06-26, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
How exactly is what a few upjumped demons say relevant to the bureaucracy and judicatur of the Nine Hells?
Last edited by Tzardok; 2021-06-26 at 12:31 PM.
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2021-06-26, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VIII
Well you'd have to stay in the Abyss, but at that point you're probably not going to heaven anyway
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